EPT19 people killed at the Love Parade - Page 5
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
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eSen1a
Australia1058 Posts
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
On July 26 2010 21:18 eSen1a wrote: ^ u realise that any concert in the world you will always have people like that, its the organisers fault for not putting failsafes in because this was bound to happen... cmon seriously a tiny tunnel as a single entry/exit? beyond stupid and that somehow makes those people not retards? its not fair to strip people of their title of moron because 'there will always be people like that.' there's always gonna be murderers too, and it isnt always the police's fault for not preventing them killing someone id like to think if i or any rational person was in a tunnel as tight as that there wouldnt be any shoving, pushing or acting like a mong because of the obvious dangers of crushing | ||
zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
As far as we can know people could have just protected themselves by pushing others away which caused someone else 20m from them to be killed. | ||
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
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eSen1a
Australia1058 Posts
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7228/tunnel.jpg | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On July 26 2010 07:54 bibogrape wrote: I guess you can say they were stomped User was warned for this post Solid first post -_- Too many people in a small area, I don't see how those people didn't see this coming. | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
On July 26 2010 21:13 JohnColtrane wrote: uhhh if nobody was an aggressive retard pushing and pulling and stomping, then 19 people would've died. sure the organisers made a fuckup and sure most people didnt have anything to do with it, but obviously there was at least one dickfuck that thought it would be a good idea to start pushing and shoving clearly you have never been in such a situation. It is easy for you to say "ok everybody should just stand still and nothing would have happened!" reality is: you get claustrophobic. There are people pushing all the time from every direction and you can hardly breath, let alone stay on your feet. When you realize that you might die like the people in front you being crushed at a wall/stair and people around you start screaming and collapsing I want to see you standing there, calmly, relaxed and not in panic t.t Of course somebody started pushing. But he is not to blame for panicking, it's either the police or the organizers fault and I do hope they'll be held responsible | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post. U do understand that church -/- narrow place where one stream of people goes THAT -> way and other stream of people goes THATT<- way.. Seriously + church = barely any movement except when its over This event = constant movement Use your brain plz.. + by simply looking at pictures and videos everyone should have realized that u cant blame the people for what has happened.. seriously.. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post. well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid... I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you. | ||
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zuqbu
Germany797 Posts
On July 26 2010 21:36 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah yeah i know, reality sucks, people cant keep their hands to themselves and their dicks in their pants. ive seen it all before, but it doesnt excuse people's behaviour, im not going to hold the organisers for the full blame let me recreate the situation for you, so that you may judge again: the accidents happened where two large tunnels were joined together into a small open space, there was the single entrance and exit to the whole festival area. this is an overview of the area: ![[image loading]](http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,2895474,00.jpg) and this is the entrance photographed from the north: ![[image loading]](http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-114255-galleryV9-drmu.jpg) now take a look at the tunnel leading to this entrance: ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Unterführung_in_Duisburg_am_ehemaligen_Güterbahnhof_DSCF0640.jpg) please note: –this tunnel is about 200 meters long into one direction from the entrance, about to 100 meters into the other. -the ceiling in the tunnel is 3,80 heigh in the middle, i would estimate 2,50 meters at the side max -apart from 2 small gaps, there are no exits to the side at all -the light is dim -there is no ventilation whatsoever. now imagine ten of thousands, maybe even 100,000 people crammed in there. oxygen levels will drop rapidly, even the most reasonable persons will go into panic mode. people push for the exits in BOTH directions. at the entrance to the festival area, where the two tunnels meet, people are crushed together, with the gates closed they have no route to escape. | ||
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rAize-
Germany75 Posts
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole. What has that got to do with anything? Why would it be good to deter people from going to the loveparade? Nothing ever really happend like that before, let them enjoy the music and have fun! Overcrowded is only when the organisation isnt good enough, which in this case was the situation, but the Loveparade in Berlin had so many ways to exit the parade, It couldnt have happened there. So you saying because of your two reasons, its okay that 18 people died, just to support 2 statements? Why arent you banned yet? | ||
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rAize-
Germany75 Posts
On July 26 2010 21:13 JohnColtrane wrote: uhhh if nobody was an aggressive retard pushing and pulling and stomping, then 19 people would've died. sure the organisers made a fuckup and sure most people didnt have anything to do with it, but obviously there was at least one dickfuck that thought it would be a good idea to start pushing and shoving You do understand that when being in a tunel like that, with a huge group, you (believe it or not) do stupid things. Hint: guess why its called panic, someone panics and tries to get out and uhh he/she pushes and pulls oh wait panic wouldnt come if the tunel wasnt overcrowded... ...jesus | ||
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events | ||
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rAize-
Germany75 Posts
I mean have u ever paniced? If no then stfu! | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On July 26 2010 21:13 JohnColtrane wrote: uhhh if nobody was an aggressive retard pushing and pulling and stomping, then 19 people would've died. sure the organisers made a fuckup and sure most people didnt have anything to do with it, but obviously there was at least one dickfuck that thought it would be a good idea to start pushing and shoving While I agree, there probably were some idiots pushing. I would guess they weren't the root of the problem which lead to these events. The problem comes from the fact that you have a wall of people, all wanting to move in seperate directions. Imagine trying to get from the front of that crowd to the back. It would be near impossible. How do you move through a crowd like that? People are going to have to move out of the way to let someone through. And when they move out of the way, they are forced to push other people. Being pushed in a crowd so densely packed results in waves of pushing, as one person is pushed into another who is pushed into another etc. At some points, there is nowhere for people to go (like the concrete edges of the tunnel) and when the wave of pushing reaches these areas, the people there have no choice but to push back. This results in the people in the middle being crushed from multiple directions. Then someone falls down. People who are being pushed in that direction are now stuck trying to fight against a crowd so they are not pushed onto the fallen person. They will not be able to stop themselves from being pushed onto this person and the falled person will be stomped. People freak out, start pushing back on the crowd trying to get this person out which leads to others being crushed. People being crushed try to find a way to get out, resulting in more pushing as people need to move to let them through. As members of the crowd realise they are in danger of being crushed, they panic and try to get out, which results in more pushing. This snowballing effect causes the disasterous effects that we've seen. No-one is necessarily at fault. Its a problem with cramming 1.4 million people into an area deemed safe for only 250,000 and with no clear layout for allowing the movement of a crowd. | ||
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Cri du Chat
Germany606 Posts
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post. An overcrowded church -_-;; OK... Panicing is not something you decide to do. It happens in a life-threatening situation. It's a primal instinct and how one would react is impossible to know. In this situation a small stairway was opened to allow people to get out of the overcrowded areas. The crowed moved in the direction of the stairs. Just imagine 100000 people pressing in your back and you can't flee. These are the stairs btw. ![[image loading]](http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2446/massenpanik118vgrossgal.jpg) | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32160 Posts
On July 26 2010 22:23 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah i know people do stupid things, its pretty obvious since 20 people were crushed to death -.- but so what? if you do something stupid and push someone and they fall over and get crushed, im going to blame the pusher people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events are you serious the planners selected a venue with a shitfuck entrance. How the hell do you not blame them first? It was foreseeable that the entrance was too small for the amount of people. How is that not at all on the planners. | ||
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post. You've gotta be kidding me. You would panic. You are human. Maybe you were in trouble at 12, but you weren't in enough trouble to lead to you to panic. Anyone whos been in a situation where they have legitamately been in a panic will know that its not a choice they make, its a very normal reaction to a dangerous situation. | ||
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