"The event was staged in an old industrial railway station. The capacity of the enclosed location was limited to 500,000 people at most, but at least one million visitors were expected, based on the experience of previous years. Commentators in Der Westen, a local newspaper, had warned of impending disaster two days before the event.[6]
Entrance was granted at 14:00 CEST (12:00 UTC). Between 100,000 and 200,000 people per hour entered the location through the 20 m wide tunnel.[citation needed] The 200 to 300 metre-long tunnel was the only entrance and exit point of the festival area.[7] Around 17:00, just before the final act of the day was to begin, the tunnel became overcrowded and a panic occurred.
The parade area reportedly had become overcrowded and police at the entrance began announcing over loudspeakers that new arrivals should turn around and head back.[2][3] The side of the tunnel that was the entry of the parade area was closed, but people continued to enter the tunnel from the rear, despite being told it was closed. A stampede occurred as the tunnel became overcrowded."
What is really outrageous: there were several people warning that this might happen: link [6] in the wikipedia article f.e. . It is unbelievable. Not only were they planning this thing for 500,000 people while over 1,000,000 attended at previous events. They also KNEW that there is only this tunnel leading to the area and that it would cause problems in case of a panic.
It's disgusting really. I dont know yet who to blame and will edit this tomorrow I guess. God I'm so angry, how can people be so fucking incompetent that something like this could happen?
Yeah. I can't really figure out what they were thinking. Panic in massive events like these aren't that uncommon.
So what happens if you pack a million people into a tunnel, and people start getting packed into each other and start feeling klaustrophobic and some people freak out / start hyperventilating? Panic. With no real emergencies getaways, it will lead into a massive stampede.
It's just silly that something like that would happen. Now it seems their cancelling the whole event. Still sucks that it happened.
It's a good example of what usually happens in large groups. Chain-reactions are created and the people refuse to think clearly. Ironical name though given the circumstances.
experts said the area is ok for up to 350k people. love parade is always 1.5million+ . there was ONE entrance. which also was the ONLY exit. they were warned by several other groups that its dangerous but they went for it.
sad that something like that can happen in germany where pretty much evrything is double checked usually.
Things like this always make me so pissed off at the stupidity of people. Apparently, it takes the deaths of 19 people to realize, "Wow. Having a million people herded through a tunnel intended for only half that amount at most might be a really bad idea."
I can't really be mad at the people who still decided to enter from the rear though. Research shows time and time again that people in groups tend to do incredibly stupid things.
What makes me mad the most though is that the tragedy clearly could have been avoided.
I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
Why do I say that? Because I've been involved in something similar. Although probably not as big. I was smart enough to stand my ground and not try to walk through anyone. I even helped a poor girl stay upright as people started pushing everyone around.
It's easy to blame people who try to organize events. But just because there's an event doesn't mean you should be allowed to go to it. The retards that forced their way through the tunnel should be charged with negligence (they were told not to go through).
edit: Wikipedia is not a valid source for information. If you're going to use wikipedia at all, use the sources that people use in wikipedia as a STARTING POINT, do some reasearch, then quote the direct sources, not a publicly edited source like Wikipedia.
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
it just disgusts me that people kept packing in at the entrance, how fucking hard is it to see you cant fit more people in, and from what ive read the police even informed them that no more people can fit inside and that everyone should turn back, but people kept trying to get in anyways like a herd of damn animals, big crowds scare me more than anything, that mentality. Ive been crushed by big crowds before, and its been no ones fault but the fucking morons that kept pushing from the back for no reason at all.
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
Do you honestly believe that? That people will learn from their mistakes and always think back to the massacre of the 24th of July, 2010, whenever an event might get crowded? That there aren't already tons of occurrences every year where people had to die for the stupidest of reasons?
And I'm going to pretend that what you meant to say is, "It's tragic that these people died. I hope this serves as a lesson for future events."
Dang, that's pretty intense. We have LoveFest over here in California which can get pretty crowded also. Luckily they close off 4 streets and there's a park in the middle so something like that can't really happen. I have seen multiple people overdosing or passed out from heat exhaustion though, not really sure if some of them survived
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
I hate this post so much
If it takes people dying in order to tell even organizers to choose their locations wisely, and to tell people to not flood a certain place when told to go back, then it was going to happen sooner or later. You can take your pick when and where it happens, and how many people die from it. I think it could have been a lot worse.
On July 26 2010 08:10 twiggy wrote: Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
Why do I say that? Because I've been involved in something similar. Although probably not as big. I was smart enough to stand my ground and not try to walk through anyone. I even helped a poor girl stay upright as people started pushing everyone around.
It's easy to blame people who try to organize events. But just because there's an event doesn't mean you should be allowed to go to it. The retards that forced their way through the tunnel should be charged with negligence (they were told not to go through).
Wtf? So its ok to assume everybody is as smart as you are, when dealing with a crowd of 1.5 million? There is no way in hell that 1.5 million people in a space for less than half of that will be orderly, nowhere you go. Let that happen then say it is the peoples fault? I might have misunderstood, but this makes no sense at all.
On July 26 2010 08:12 besiger wrote: it just disgusts me that people kept packing in at the entrance, how fucking hard is it to see you cant fit more people in
Maybe it's a good thing that they didn't know something was going on.. It could have been bigger otherwise.
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
Do you honestly believe that? That people will learn from their mistakes and always think back to the massacre of the 24th of July, 2010, whenever an event might get crowded? That there aren't already tons of occurrences every year where people had to die for the stupidest of reasons?
And I'm going to pretend that what you meant to say is, "It's tragic that these people died. I hope this serves as a lesson for future events."
Yes, I believe that after this event, most people will not learn, but organizers of all sorts of events will take notice. People dying of stupidity will decrease as well. If this tragedy deters a slim 100,000 people from attending the next loveparade, I think that's a benefit. You don't need an absolute 0 stupidity deaths to call it a benefiting change.
from what ive read they wont hold another love parade ever because of this, but I dont think it will change much with stampedes like this, a few years back a bunch of people died at a festival because it started to rain and they all flooded into the subway crushing people to death, I cant imagine a more stupid and horrible way to go, and as long as there are big crowds its gonna happen when panic sets in.
On July 26 2010 08:12 besiger wrote: it just disgusts me that people kept packing in at the entrance, how fucking hard is it to see you cant fit more people in
Maybe it's a good thing that they didn't know something was going on.. It could have been bigger otherwise.
On July 26 2010 08:10 twiggy wrote: Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
It's their job to think about the security, it's not like crowd phenomenons are something new. The path of the love parade or the estimation of people coming? There is definitely something that the organizers fucked up.
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
I hate this post so much
If it takes people dying in order to tell even organizers to choose their locations wisely, and to tell people to not flood a certain place when told to go back, then it was going to happen sooner or later. You can take your pick when and where it happens, and how many people die from it. I think it could have been a lot worse.
You're right, this never happened before and this is why it happened. NEVER AGAIN WILL PEOPLE GET TRAMPLED TO DEATH FOR NOW, WE HAVE THE EXPERIENCE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY.
But no seriously, get acquainted with common sense. This happens all the time. In 3 days we'll forget and in 3 months it'll happen again. Those 19 people died for nothing.
On July 26 2010 08:12 besiger wrote: it just disgusts me that people kept packing in at the entrance, how fucking hard is it to see you cant fit more people in
Maybe it's a good thing that they didn't know something was going on.. It could have been bigger otherwise.
On July 26 2010 08:10 twiggy wrote: Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
It's their job to think about the security, it's not like crowd phenomenons are something new. The path of the love parade or the estimation of people coming? There is definitely something that the organizers fucked up.
well its true that the organizers should have prepared better, but it just kind of makes me sick when the news try to pile all the blame on them, like the all the people involved had no responsibility. Now I dont know the whole story but from what i gathered the rest of the people that were at the tunnel entrance, people that were in no danger, just kept trying to get in even though they were told to stop and to go back because there is no more room, and I blame those people as much as the organization.
The people did not die in the tunnel. All of them were found on the one side of the tunnel, where there was a ramp leading up. So far it is believed that most of the people who died, died because they fell down, while they were trying to climb up the wall where the ramp was. I couldn't find any information on the exact change of events, don't know if panic occured so the people tried climbing up the wall, or if they fell down and then panic occured.
Nevertheless, it was a really terrible location choice by the organizers. Also incredible that they turned down a proposed security plan that would have allegedly provided far more safety for the crowd, because it was too expensive... And the fuck is wrong with people!? Why would you trample over anybody?? Especially, if there is no real danger like a fire or armed nutjobs...
While I agree the organizers are partially responsible, I also agree with the people who say much of the blame falls on the people who went there. In particular the people who came in last are dumb fucks. This isn't the first time this has happened but everytime it does hopefully it deters some people from going to such events as well as knock some sense into organizers.
It sounds terrible but natural selection at work...
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
I hate this post so much
If it takes people dying in order to tell even organizers to choose their locations wisely, and to tell people to not flood a certain place when told to go back, then it was going to happen sooner or later. You can take your pick when and where it happens, and how many people die from it. I think it could have been a lot worse.
You're right, this never happened before and this is why it happened. NEVER AGAIN WILL PEOPLE GET TRAMPLED TO DEATH FOR NOW, WE HAVE THE EXPERIENCE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY.
But no seriously, get acquainted with common sense. This happens all the time. In 3 days we'll forget and in 3 months it'll happen again. Those 19 people died for nothing.
This event has a guaranteed effect on future loveparades. The probability of 19 people dying in a loveparade is the same regardless of which year it happens, so essentially, we are saving the 19 people that would have died next year by having them die this year. That in itself is a fair trade. On top of that, there is definitely a good chance that people will learn from this. It doesn't have to be a million people being saved, just a few thousand people will suffice. Heck the people reading this thread will probably think twice about going to major events in the future. That will amount to an overall more people saved.
I think you are wrong about this event being forgotten. It will be forgotten in the media for sure, but it will not for event organizers. As an engineer, I am taught of all the bridges that collapsed, all the buildings that fell down, etc, and why it happened. This will make a difference to future organizers, it doesn't have to be a 100% difference.
On July 26 2010 08:37 ggrrg wrote: And the fuck is wrong with people!? Why would you trample over anybody?? Especially, if there is no real danger like a fire or armed nutjobs...
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
I hate this post so much
If it takes people dying in order to tell even organizers to choose their locations wisely, and to tell people to not flood a certain place when told to go back, then it was going to happen sooner or later. You can take your pick when and where it happens, and how many people die from it. I think it could have been a lot worse.
I don't think a lesson was learned here, expect the same thing at the next parade. SAD BUT TRUEEEEE.
On July 26 2010 08:37 ggrrg wrote: And the fuck is wrong with people!? Why would you trample over anybody?? Especially, if there is no real danger like a fire or armed nutjobs...
It's natural. You and I would do the same.
Yes. It's not like anybody decides "Hey, there is a poor guy on the ground, lets trample him to death!". When you are in an area without exit, being pushed around by a trillion other people in the same situation you can't choose where to stand and where not to - if they push you on top of somebody, you cannot step to the side or something. Also you are probably worried for your own safety in the first place... I have always shun crowds, for a good reason it looks like. Considering what kind of shit is going on every day all over the world 19 people does not sound like a lot frankly, but what makes me sorry the most is that it happened at the Loveparade of all places and that several hundreds of thousands of people are probably are shocked, feel responsible and had this huge event of love and peace turned into a desaster.
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
I hate this post so much
If it takes people dying in order to tell even organizers to choose their locations wisely, and to tell people to not flood a certain place when told to go back, then it was going to happen sooner or later. You can take your pick when and where it happens, and how many people die from it. I think it could have been a lot worse.
You're right, this never happened before and this is why it happened. NEVER AGAIN WILL PEOPLE GET TRAMPLED TO DEATH FOR NOW, WE HAVE THE EXPERIENCE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY.
But no seriously, get acquainted with common sense. This happens all the time. In 3 days we'll forget and in 3 months it'll happen again. Those 19 people died for nothing.
This event has a guaranteed effect on future loveparades. The probability of 19 people dying in a loveparade is the same regardless of which year it happens, so essentially, we are saving the 19 people that would have died next year by having them die this year. That in itself is a fair trade. On top of that, there is definitely a good chance that people will learn from this. It doesn't have to be a million people being saved, just a few thousand people will suffice. Heck the people reading this thread will probably think twice about going to major events in the future. That will amount to an overall more people saved.
I think you are wrong about this event being forgotten. It will be forgotten in the media for sure, but it will not for event organizers. As an engineer, I am taught of all the bridges that collapsed, all the buildings that fell down, etc, and why it happened. This will make a difference to future organizers, it doesn't have to be a 100% difference.
19 people saved "this year instead of next year" being a fair trade makes no sense. That's like me shooting a guy in the head and saying "well, you were going to die eventually anyways. It's not like anything's going to change that."
Also, if this truly will deter future deaths, then explain to me why people still drink and drive? 25,000 people die from drunk driving accidents every year, yet no matter how many people seem to die, people still feel inclined to get behind the wheel drunk out of their minds.
It's not a fair trade. It's simply a disaster that could have been avoided.
On July 26 2010 08:40 On_Slaught wrote: While I agree the organizers are partially responsible, I also agree with the people who say much of the blame falls on the people who went there. In particular the people who came in last are dumb fucks. This isn't the first time this has happened but everytime it does hopefully it deters some people from going to such events as well as knock some sense into organizers.
It sounds terrible but natural selection at work...
how is that natural selection at work? you could have easily been one of those 19 people... it's not just people who made the dumb decision of continuing to enter that died.
On July 26 2010 07:54 bibogrape wrote: I guess you can say they were stomped
User was warned for this post
is there some kind of meaning to his post that I am missing? How is it that mods complain about "the influx of retarded posters" "so many retarded posters it's so hard to handle", and then we get people like this, that make this post, on literally his FIRST POST, and he's only warned? uh, excuse me, this seems like a pretty obvious perm ban - get this idiot off the site immediately forever. am i missing something? this isn't the only post like this I've seen where some idiot makes a horrible horrible post and only gets a warning. im sorry but it just pisses me off so bad when other people get banned for posts that don't contain malice or negativity and are much better than this, but then this guy makes this post for literally his first post and we are going to keep this kind of guy on the site.
ok whatever mods, if you want to continue to deal with this guy in the future i guess that's your business, meanwhile the rest of us will try to ignore the shit on our screen.
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
I hate this post so much
If it takes people dying in order to tell even organizers to choose their locations wisely, and to tell people to not flood a certain place when told to go back, then it was going to happen sooner or later. You can take your pick when and where it happens, and how many people die from it. I think it could have been a lot worse.
people have been dying in stampedes at concerts for ages. People won't learn from this =/
Yeah, it kind of sucks that because SC2 is coming out, Starcraft is getting a lot more attention and so all the Xbox Live clowns are coming to this community that was good a mere month ago. I really hope that this doesn't go down hill and these little ignorant kids who live off mommy's paycheck go away.
To make a joke about a human life LOST like this is pathetic and that kind of person shouldn't be apart of this, or any community. Sorry to burst the bubble of some of these people but it's NOT COOL seeing as thats what you'r intention was. Idiot.
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
I hate this post so much
If it takes people dying in order to tell even organizers to choose their locations wisely, and to tell people to not flood a certain place when told to go back, then it was going to happen sooner or later. You can take your pick when and where it happens, and how many people die from it. I think it could have been a lot worse.
You're right, this never happened before and this is why it happened. NEVER AGAIN WILL PEOPLE GET TRAMPLED TO DEATH FOR NOW, WE HAVE THE EXPERIENCE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY.
But no seriously, get acquainted with common sense. This happens all the time. In 3 days we'll forget and in 3 months it'll happen again. Those 19 people died for nothing.
This event has a guaranteed effect on future loveparades. The probability of 19 people dying in a loveparade is the same regardless of which year it happens, so essentially, we are saving the 19 people that would have died next year by having them die this year. That in itself is a fair trade. On top of that, there is definitely a good chance that people will learn from this. It doesn't have to be a million people being saved, just a few thousand people will suffice. Heck the people reading this thread will probably think twice about going to major events in the future. That will amount to an overall more people saved.
I think you are wrong about this event being forgotten. It will be forgotten in the media for sure, but it will not for event organizers. As an engineer, I am taught of all the bridges that collapsed, all the buildings that fell down, etc, and why it happened. This will make a difference to future organizers, it doesn't have to be a 100% difference.
19 people saved "this year instead of next year" being a fair trade makes no sense. That's like me shooting a guy in the head and saying "well, you were going to die eventually anyways. It's not like anything's going to change that."
Also, if this truly will deter future deaths, then explain to me why people still drink and drive? 25,000 people die from drunk driving accidents every year, yet no matter how many people seem to die, people still feel inclined to get behind the wheel drunk out of their minds.
It's not a fair trade. It's simply a disaster that could have been avoided.
19 this year instead of next year is entirely different from shooting someone. The life of a random individual bears the same value between this year and the next. Shooting a specific person in the head while they are young has a much greater consequence than the person dying of old age.
With your second statement, you are forgetting that it doesn't have to be a 100% stop for it to be effective. People die from drinking and driving. At a result, Your school teaches you not to drink and drink. There are commercials and posters saying that you shouldn't drink and drive. There is a significant fine for drinking and driving. Bartenders take away your keys if you are drunk. The list goes on. Are you saying that 25,000 people will die each year regardless of what we do?
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
I hate this post so much
If it takes people dying in order to tell even organizers to choose their locations wisely, and to tell people to not flood a certain place when told to go back, then it was going to happen sooner or later. You can take your pick when and where it happens, and how many people die from it. I think it could have been a lot worse.
You're right, this never happened before and this is why it happened. NEVER AGAIN WILL PEOPLE GET TRAMPLED TO DEATH FOR NOW, WE HAVE THE EXPERIENCE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY.
But no seriously, get acquainted with common sense. This happens all the time. In 3 days we'll forget and in 3 months it'll happen again. Those 19 people died for nothing.
This event has a guaranteed effect on future loveparades. The probability of 19 people dying in a loveparade is the same regardless of which year it happens, so essentially, we are saving the 19 people that would have died next year by having them die this year. That in itself is a fair trade. On top of that, there is definitely a good chance that people will learn from this. It doesn't have to be a million people being saved, just a few thousand people will suffice. Heck the people reading this thread will probably think twice about going to major events in the future. That will amount to an overall more people saved.
I think you are wrong about this event being forgotten. It will be forgotten in the media for sure, but it will not for event organizers. As an engineer, I am taught of all the bridges that collapsed, all the buildings that fell down, etc, and why it happened. This will make a difference to future organizers, it doesn't have to be a 100% difference.
19 people saved "this year instead of next year" being a fair trade makes no sense. That's like me shooting a guy in the head and saying "well, you were going to die eventually anyways. It's not like anything's going to change that."
Also, if this truly will deter future deaths, then explain to me why people still drink and drive? 25,000 people die from drunk driving accidents every year, yet no matter how many people seem to die, people still feel inclined to get behind the wheel drunk out of their minds.
It's not a fair trade. It's simply a disaster that could have been avoided.
19 this year instead of next year is entirely different from shooting someone. The life of a random individual bears the same value between this year and the next. Shooting a specific person in the head while they are young has a much greater consequence than the person dying of old age.
With your second statement, you are forgetting that it doesn't have to be a 100% stop for it to be effective. People die from drinking and driving. At a result, Your school teaches you not to drink and drink. There are commercials and posters saying that you shouldn't drink and drive. There is a significant fine for drinking and driving. Bartenders take away your keys if you are drunk. The list goes on. Are you saying that 25,000 people will die each year regardless of what we do?
I do like the attitude of seeing the best in everything. But here it's just wrong. At least the way you say it. There is the possibility to learn from the disaster afterwards but it's still neither a "fair trade" nor "for the better". It's still a sad and horrible tragedy. Besides what tells you this would have happened the next year or that more people would have died the next year?
I really dont think that the problem can be drugs or alcohol... it was the set up, the placement for the ammount of people.
You can see the video, the tunnel is a horrible idea because people get in and out from the same door. When you have 10 person per square meter its almost impossible to move on your own, those who have been inside a METRO in chile or in china would understand easily... that was like a crowded metro door... the control was awfull and the mass just went into panic unleashing a stampede.
I really want to follow this news to see what really caused that mess... Love parade will cease it's parties in respect for the victims. There won't be love parade anymore, maybe another more controlled party...
There are thousands of parties around the world that become "overcrowded" but they go on fine... they are really not that overcrowded... This loveparade will set new rules and conditions for parties around the world, it was a really bad idea because the tunnel with the heat of 400.000 dancing bodies and thuosands of WATTS hitting the inner walls...
My condolences for those who died and their familie, really terrible / horrible way to perish.
It was clearly the organizers fault, because the only way to get to one of the bigger concert-stages, was through a pretty narrow tunnel. There where people who knew this and they've said: "I cannot imagine this many ppl walk orderly out through the tunnel when the concert is over - there will be hysteria and death" and that was in fact the case.
Just imagine you're at a crowded concert where ppl can walk away from the stage in almost any direction - even with just a few thousand ppl it can get pretty intense. Now imagine the same scenario with only one way out; ppl at the back begin to push, but in the front they are stuck. You don't have to be a genius to see that there could easily be an outburst of panic and when that happens, you have to react very quickly and evacuate the ppl, or there will surely be a lot of casualties.
I also don't think that it had something to do with the ppl themselves, like them being to blame for this tragic event or that they just took drugs or were violent ppl just because they listen to electronic music...
On July 26 2010 08:10 twiggy wrote: Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
Why do I say that? Because I've been involved in something similar. Although probably not as big. I was smart enough to stand my ground and not try to walk through anyone. I even helped a poor girl stay upright as people started pushing everyone around.
It's easy to blame people who try to organize events. But just because there's an event doesn't mean you should be allowed to go to it. The retards that forced their way through the tunnel should be charged with negligence (they were told not to go through).
edit: Wikipedia is not a valid source for information. If you're going to use wikipedia at all, use the sources that people use in wikipedia as a STARTING POINT, do some reasearch, then quote the direct sources, not a publicly edited source like Wikipedia.
I was in the 2004 Red Sox parade, and trust me, it's not easy to stand your ground in a large group, as you say.
Me and 6 of my buddies tried to stand together, but the weight of the crowd is too much. We were almost knocked down, so we had to keep moving in the direction of the crowd to avoid being knocked down. Apparently someone died in those stampedes.
On July 26 2010 08:10 twiggy wrote: Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
Why do I say that? Because I've been involved in something similar. Although probably not as big. I was smart enough to stand my ground and not try to walk through anyone. I even helped a poor girl stay upright as people started pushing everyone around.
It's easy to blame people who try to organize events. But just because there's an event doesn't mean you should be allowed to go to it. The retards that forced their way through the tunnel should be charged with negligence (they were told not to go through).
edit: Wikipedia is not a valid source for information. If you're going to use wikipedia at all, use the sources that people use in wikipedia as a STARTING POINT, do some reasearch, then quote the direct sources, not a publicly edited source like Wikipedia.
I was in the 2004 Red Sox parade, and trust me, it's not easy to stand your ground in a large group, as you say.
Me and 6 of my buddies tried to stand together, but the weight of the crowd is too much. We were almost knocked down, so we had to keep moving in the direction of the crowd to avoid being knocked down. Apparently someone died in those stampedes.
Seriously. I was in a much smaller crowd before where everyone was pushing from the back, and it was literally impossible to hold your ground and not get smashed. Literally the most terrifying moments of my life.
This shit happens in the middle east and India with religious rallies all the time. Cram enough people into one place and someone is going to get ran over. It's the event organizers fault, creating a bottleneck with that kind of crowd is just bad news.
On July 26 2010 16:43 despite wrote: The one thing I can't understand is why it is called love parade when it is a simple gay parade?
Do not derail this thread.
Move along, nothing to see here.
It's not a Gay-Parade, it's a Technoparade....
I don't know why ppl keep mixing Techno and Gay up that often. ^^'
Besides, as I've written above, I don't know what the ppl attending the parade have to do with the event that happened. For what I care, it could've been a punk or folk-festival - the people didn't matter, the huge organizational fail did...
That's what concerns me a bit: Even the first public announcements stated that the ppl who died where drugged and tried to climb a fence and died. I think that's just the mentality with which ppl face the "ravers", "drug-addicts" or "gay's" they believe to attend those events. In fact, the ppl there were just normal ppl that wanted to party while listening to the music they like - at least for the biggest part.
On July 26 2010 08:10 twiggy wrote: Lots of people are blaming the organizers. Sure, it's easy to do that. But I say blame the people who attended (or at least those that were involved in the stampede).
Why do I say that? Because I've been involved in something similar. Although probably not as big. I was smart enough to stand my ground and not try to walk through anyone. I even helped a poor girl stay upright as people started pushing everyone around.
It's easy to blame people who try to organize events. But just because there's an event doesn't mean you should be allowed to go to it. The retards that forced their way through the tunnel should be charged with negligence (they were told not to go through).
edit: Wikipedia is not a valid source for information. If you're going to use wikipedia at all, use the sources that people use in wikipedia as a STARTING POINT, do some reasearch, then quote the direct sources, not a publicly edited source like Wikipedia.
I was in the 2004 Red Sox parade, and trust me, it's not easy to stand your ground in a large group, as you say.
Me and 6 of my buddies tried to stand together, but the weight of the crowd is too much. We were almost knocked down, so we had to keep moving in the direction of the crowd to avoid being knocked down. Apparently someone died in those stampedes.
Seriously. I was in a much smaller crowd before where everyone was pushing from the back, and it was literally impossible to hold your ground and not get smashed. Literally the most terrifying moments of my life.
I agree, I experienced the exact same thing. I was at Monster Massive in LA last halloween, and we had to wait in line for about 2 hours before we were allowed to enter because of capacity reasons. After the first hour, people started freaking out and the crowd was pushing so hard that the fences that were keeping us back were rocking back and forth, and at one point it almost fell over before security responded and tried to calm everyone down.
Me and my friend tried to resist the flow of the crowd but it was impossible. There were some groups of people with girls that were freaking out because they were getting knocked down and there was nothing we could do to help them. Eventually people at the front started lifting up parts of the smaller metal line dividers and "crowd surfing" them backwards toward the end of the line.
You could say it's the fault of the organizers, but I honestly don't know as it's hard to anticipate the total headcount for these types of events.
On July 26 2010 16:43 despite wrote: The one thing I can't understand is why it is called love parade when it is a simple gay parade?
Damn stuff like this makes me sad. I definately blame the organizers, because they should be more cautious at events like this. Never underestimate what could happen - seriously if you stack horde of people into a tunnel 20m wide, like 50% of those people are drugged or drunk, what the hell do you think could happen...Seriously fucking idiots. Yes people that kept pushing are stupid, but guess what - that is what people are - stupid monkeys. This really is the organizers fault as they should be more cautious.
I think the organisers need to be charged for this. They have a responsibility when planning an event such as this to ensure proper crowd control.
A tunnel wihere the only entrace is the exit? with concrete walls? Jesus christ what were they thinking? It doesn't take a genius to realise the potential dangers there.
People are stupid, but crowds are even stupider. Organisers MUST account for the possibility of something going wrong. And must take every reasonable precaution to prevent something from going wrong. And in this scenario, they failed on both accounts.
Yes, the people who pushed in from behind are idiots. But we cant just sit back and blame them when it is someones JOB to prevent the idiots from causing harm.
So apparently both the organizers and the city ignored concerns over security before the event. The federal spokesman of the police warned the event could not happen in Duisburg (the city) over a year ago. Event security specialists from the firefighters form the neighboring city of Bochum were involved in planning and also advised against holding the event in Duisburg. Last year's parade in Bochum was canceled over security concerns.
The staging area was OK'd for 250k people, which should have been enough to outright cancel the event. An estimated 1.4 mio had entered the area just before the tragedy happened.
The organizers were freed from providing sufficiently wide exit routes mandatory for such an event by the city. To give some background, Duisburg is the city worst off in terms of economy and unemployment in the former heart of coal and steel industry in Germany and apparently wanted to host this event at all costs.
All in all a colossal and tragic fuckup by the organizers and the city of Duisburg. Public prosecution announced investigation against the organizers and has seized the security concept material. The Bochum police which was involved in the planning and was also ignored wants to press charges against the city of Duisburg.
The Love Parade already announced that they won't have another one. This is the end of the Love Parade.
On July 26 2010 08:17 Ichabod wrote: It's frustrating that stuff like this happens, when it could be just as easily avoided if people just acted calmly.
Let's be clear here- the event was at it's full capacity and they were not letting anyone in. The people outside of the tunnel did not know that and kept pushing. People were getting crushed, that's when the panic started. Pretty easy to tell people to be calm sitting in your armchair. Ironically the organisators let the event go on in spite of the deaths, to avoid further mass panic.
On July 26 2010 08:17 Ichabod wrote: It's frustrating that stuff like this happens, when it could be just as easily avoided if people just acted calmly.
Let's be clear here- the event was at it's full capacity and they were not letting anyone in. The people outside of the tunnel did not know that and kept pushing. People were getting crushed, that's when the panic started. Pretty easy to tell people to be calm sitting in your armchair. Ironically the organisators let the event go on in spite of the deaths, to avoid further mass panic.
crowds that thick rarely just calmly disperse and from what i saw of pictures of the event it was way over crowded, i was surprised people could even pour in, it didn't look like any walking space what so ever.
On July 26 2010 18:10 zatic wrote: The Bochum police which was involved in the planning and also ignored wants to press charges against the city of Duisburg.
The Love Parade already announced that they won't have another one. This is the end of the Love Parade.
thats what pisses me off so hard.
the people really responsible for this crap wont be punished and the love parade(a really amazing thing) ends because some retard greedy idiots with no fkkin clue were too stupid to realise that 1,5m people in a 250k area with only one entrance which is also the only exit might be a problem.
i am from krefeld that is the city next to duisburg and all trains stopped here after that and i heard about it ... i am happy i am no techno fan because of the near i would be there 100% ...
a place for max 350.000 people for an event with 1-1,5 million people ... it was so sure ...
rip for all 19 dead people and i hope all 300 injured get well soon ... its so tragic
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
You're saying that people learn from their mistakes? No, we don't. Especially not when big things like this happens. Why do we still have wars for example?
And I also think this is a case of conformity, at least a big part of it. Of course they knew there would be problems...it's quite obvious. The main responsibles were probably just greedy/lazy or whatever you want to call it, while those who worked under them didn't say anything because of conformity. There has been cases like this before and there will be more. Remember the Space shuttle Columbia disaster in 2003? Or the Challenger disaster in 1986 (I wasn't born then so I don't really "remember" it)? I'm sure there were people who knew that something was wrong...
On July 26 2010 18:10 zatic wrote: The Bochum police which was involved in the planning and also ignored wants to press charges against the city of Duisburg.
The Love Parade already announced that they won't have another one. This is the end of the Love Parade.
thats what pisses me off so hard.
the people really responsible for this crap wont be punished and the love parade(a really amazing thing) ends because some retard greedy idiots with no fkkin clue were too stupid to realise that 1,5m people in a 250k area with only one entrance which is also the only exit might be a problem.
Well no. The Loveparade will end because it was an sponsored event which no sponsor in their right mind will want to be associated with now. The mass panic in Roskilde was just as terrible, but they could go on (with some major security improvements) just fine.
However I'm pretty sure that there will some kind of commercial festival (with tickets and thus a limited amount of ppl) to take the Loveparades place. There's just too much money to be made from all those Ravers.
The blame on this can be blamed on the same type of people who screwed shit up at EDC: Idiots who get into this sort of mob mentality where they refuse to think with any reason and just do stupid shit for the fun of it. If they had payed attention and not all tried to rush the tunnel no-one would have been hurt.
A human crush is a horrible way to die. Imagine being stuck in the middle of one million sweaty people stacked like sardines being knocked around on a warm day. It would be hard to breathe and there would be no way of getting out because there was only one small exit. You'd try to look back but just see thousands of panicked faces. How sad.
On July 26 2010 19:03 ColorsOfRainbow wrote: i am from krefeld that is the city next to duisburg and all trains stopped here after that and i heard about it ... i am happy i am no techno fan because of the near i would be there 100% ...
still the chance to be one of the deaths is about 0,001%, so you dont realy have to be scared
i dont get why they chose an area as small as that. why not just do it on a autobahn like 2 years before in dortmund
but people going crazy is not the organizers fault, people are just stupid if the police tells them to turn around and leave and they still try to go in
This shit didnt happen due to stupid people acting like retards. You can put a million 'clever' people not on drugs in the exact same position and the outcome is the same. Im getting so sick oft freaking idiots saying it was due to drugs/alcohol or people pushing. When there is a big event everyone wants to get in. When half wants out and half wants in on the same route which is faar to small shit is just bound to happen.
Its just so crazy. Imagine you and your girlfriend being there and because shes just physically weaker simply dies.. Crazy stuff..
cliffnotes: Its not the peoples faults but the organizers. Its not the stupid mass of people on drugs that caused this. It doesnt matter which kind of persons are in this position as long as there is not enough space and basically no where to go u can put any kind of group in this situation the outcome will always be the same: Fighting for survival..
have you ever been in situations like that, how about you don't call people idiots right off the bat, i have been on both ends of big crowds like that, and have literally seen people start pushing from the back for no other reason than to fucking push forwards because they cant be bothered to wait a few minutes, im not saying thats exactly what happened here, but there are always idiots in a crowd and just chalking everything up to survival instinct doesn't make it right.
RIP, and deep regrets for all the families of these people. I don't know what to say, it's horrifying. What disturbs me the most is the thought that I've seen this happening before in massive public events in other countries. And apparently it keeps happening, and even in a perfectly organized country like Germany. When I've seen this in the past, I usually thought people'd learn and do something so that it won't happen again; and now it's 2010... I feel like there should be some international convention/declaration to encourage organizers of massive events worldwide to be always extra careful, even when those are somewhat "underground" events.
That's indeed quite tragic. It's terrible that a free concert of that magnitude won't be held again because of the failure of event planners to think of safety. It was a really awesome event but anytime you try to fit twice as many people into an area then you're going to have problems
On July 26 2010 20:05 besiger wrote: have you ever been in situations like that, how about you don't call people idiots right off the bat, i have been on both ends of big crowds like that, and have literally seen people start pushing from the back for no other reason than to fucking push forwards because they cant be bothered to wait a few minutes, im not saying thats exactly what happened here, but there are always idiots in a crowd and just chalking everything up to survival instinct doesn't make it right.
This man is right.
Crowds are very predictable and well-studied. It's not that you can call some people 'idiots' and claim it's their responsibility. No, due to the predictability of the crowd as a whole it's completely organizer's fault and they will have to face punishment.
I've been in huge crowds myself, seen people lose conscience, nearly lost it myself. It's not that people inside are stupid, it's just that you're absolutely not informed about what happens in the farther reaches of the crowd and the only people you can see are those 5-10 around you. It takes a vector of will do densify the crowd (like every individual has to reach some kind of goal). It takes a desire to get out for it to start a panic which is uncontrollable. And yeah there will always be like 1% of real idiots inside that push for no real reason, but that 1% is enough to make things hot.
On July 26 2010 08:40 On_Slaught wrote: While I agree the organizers are partially responsible, I also agree with the people who say much of the blame falls on the people who went there. In particular the people who came in last are dumb fucks. This isn't the first time this has happened but everytime it does hopefully it deters some people from going to such events as well as knock some sense into organizers.
It sounds terrible but natural selection at work...
how is that natural selection at work? you could have easily been one of those 19 people... it's not just people who made the dumb decision of continuing to enter that died.
On July 26 2010 07:54 bibogrape wrote: I guess you can say they were stomped
User was warned for this post
is there some kind of meaning to his post that I am missing? How is it that mods complain about "the influx of retarded posters" "so many retarded posters it's so hard to handle", and then we get people like this, that make this post, on literally his FIRST POST, and he's only warned? uh, excuse me, this seems like a pretty obvious perm ban - get this idiot off the site immediately forever. am i missing something? this isn't the only post like this I've seen where some idiot makes a horrible horrible post and only gets a warning. im sorry but it just pisses me off so bad when other people get banned for posts that don't contain malice or negativity and are much better than this, but then this guy makes this post for literally his first post and we are going to keep this kind of guy on the site.
ok whatever mods, if you want to continue to deal with this guy in the future i guess that's your business, meanwhile the rest of us will try to ignore the shit on our screen.
However distasteful, the pun is still decent. There have been alot of pun posts regarding news threads like these and it seems a little rough to me to kick out a perm ban in this specific occasion. It just turns into a debate about what we are allowed to joke about and not. For reference "Stomp" is commonly used as describing dancing at a techno or trance rave.
When there is such a small space for so many people; people who want to go in different directions through it u just cant blame the behaviour of 300.000 persons. It makes no sense.
Just watch some of the footage and tell me anything else would have happened if u put chilled, calm and friendly people in the same situation. If a group of 200.000 tries to get out and a group of a even higher amount tries to get in u can be as friendly and nicely as u want.. this shit is bound to happen.
Its not the 1 % fault. The 1 % doesnt change anything about the death toll.
well no one is trying to say its not the organizations fault, they could have prevented it, it just kind of makes me depressed to see people care so little about others, now I dont know for sure if its true, but in most places I read about this it has been said that the police announced that there is no more room and that people need to stop trying to get in, but everyone just ignored it and kept pushing, I guess im just biased from being almost crushed a few times my self at places where there wasn't even a panic, just people pushing and shoving for no reason.
its mindblowingly sad. reminds me of all those muslim religious meetings, where such things happen, but i was always like - this would never happen in my country ...
and yes, officials stated that this was the last love parade.
On July 26 2010 19:53 MaGic~PhiL wrote: To all people here who still dont get it:
This shit didnt happen due to stupid people acting like retards. You can put a million 'clever' people not on drugs in the exact same position and the outcome is the same. Im getting so sick oft freaking idiots saying it was due to drugs/alcohol or people pushing. When there is a big event everyone wants to get in. When half wants out and half wants in on the same route which is faar to small shit is just bound to happen.
seconded. when uninvolved people talk about the loveparade attendence, they use names such as "ravers" and assume everyone there is is drunk, stoned or buffed by various illegal drugs. i'm not denying some people are, but the mayority are pretty normal, from all ages between 14 and 60. i would even say most people don't care for the music at all and are just curious onlookers, or just being there for the sake of having been there.
EDIT: now that i think about it, my grandmother was at the 2007 loveparade in essen just out of sheer curiosity. she was 85 then. and i don't suspect my grandmother to have taken any drugs, nor being interested in electronic music.
my girlfriend and i were at the parade 2008 in dortmund, and originally planed to spend the whole day there but decided to leave after one hour because it was overcrowded. it was impossible to enjoy, we ended just being pushed around. in dortmund, there were multiple entries/exits to the area, despite this it took us about 1 1/2 hours to leave.
due to our personal experiences, we weren't interested in the event this year. after hearing about the mass panic and tragedy we were shocked. after phoning up our relatives and friends who had planned to be there, and finally hearing from everyone that they were luckily ok and not hurt, we were getting more information about the venue in duisburg.
i have grown up in muelheim, right next to duisburg. i know the place quite good, and it started to grow on me that this event shouldn't have been hosted there in the first place. projecting the masses of people i have experienced 2 years ago, into this far smaller space, with just one bottleneck entrance/exit is giving me headaches.
the main station in duisburg is an even tighter space btw, and traffic there collapsed during the whole day. i have heard from friends, that due to overcrowding people were pushed onto the rail tracks, and trains commuting there (if at all!) were driving at walking speed max. it seems like pure luck, that not more accidents happened there.
duisburg has a total of about 490,000 inhabitants, and if the numbers are correct, there were about three times as many people just in the city centre. this city does not have the infrastructure and space needed to host such an event, and it should have been cancelled like the one in bochum which was planned one year ago.
uhhh if nobody was an aggressive retard pushing and pulling and stomping, then 19 people would've died. sure the organisers made a fuckup and sure most people didnt have anything to do with it, but obviously there was at least one dickfuck that thought it would be a good idea to start pushing and shoving
^ u realise that any concert in the world you will always have people like that, its the organisers fault for not putting failsafes in because this was bound to happen... cmon seriously a tiny tunnel as a single entry/exit? beyond stupid
On July 26 2010 21:18 eSen1a wrote: ^ u realise that any concert in the world you will always have people like that, its the organisers fault for not putting failsafes in because this was bound to happen... cmon seriously a tiny tunnel as a single entry/exit? beyond stupid
and that somehow makes those people not retards? its not fair to strip people of their title of moron because 'there will always be people like that.' there's always gonna be murderers too, and it isnt always the police's fault for not preventing them killing someone
id like to think if i or any rational person was in a tunnel as tight as that there wouldnt be any shoving, pushing or acting like a mong because of the obvious dangers of crushing
Well unfortunately John we live in this thing called Reality where in any crowd in tight spaces there will be pushing and shoving, regardless of how many or how few retards are in the crowd, as people have said here.
As far as we can know people could have just protected themselves by pushing others away which caused someone else 20m from them to be killed.
yeah yeah i know, reality sucks, people cant keep their hands to themselves and their dicks in their pants. ive seen it all before, but it doesnt excuse people's behaviour, im not going to hold the organisers for the full blame
It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
On July 26 2010 21:13 JohnColtrane wrote: uhhh if nobody was an aggressive retard pushing and pulling and stomping, then 19 people would've died. sure the organisers made a fuckup and sure most people didnt have anything to do with it, but obviously there was at least one dickfuck that thought it would be a good idea to start pushing and shoving
clearly you have never been in such a situation. It is easy for you to say "ok everybody should just stand still and nothing would have happened!" reality is: you get claustrophobic. There are people pushing all the time from every direction and you can hardly breath, let alone stay on your feet. When you realize that you might die like the people in front you being crushed at a wall/stair and people around you start screaming and collapsing I want to see you standing there, calmly, relaxed and not in panic t.t
Of course somebody started pushing. But he is not to blame for panicking, it's either the police or the organizers fault and I do hope they'll be held responsible
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
U do understand that church -/- narrow place where one stream of people goes THAT -> way and other stream of people goes THATT<- way..
Seriously + church = barely any movement except when its over
This event = constant movement
Use your brain plz..
+ by simply looking at pictures and videos everyone should have realized that u cant blame the people for what has happened..
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
On July 26 2010 21:36 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah yeah i know, reality sucks, people cant keep their hands to themselves and their dicks in their pants. ive seen it all before, but it doesnt excuse people's behaviour, im not going to hold the organisers for the full blame
let me recreate the situation for you, so that you may judge again: the accidents happened where two large tunnels were joined together into a small open space, there was the single entrance and exit to the whole festival area.
this is an overview of the area:
and this is the entrance photographed from the north:
now take a look at the tunnel leading to this entrance:
please note: –this tunnel is about 200 meters long into one direction from the entrance, about to 100 meters into the other. -the ceiling in the tunnel is 3,80 heigh in the middle, i would estimate 2,50 meters at the side max -apart from 2 small gaps, there are no exits to the side at all -the light is dim -there is no ventilation whatsoever.
now imagine ten of thousands, maybe even 100,000 people crammed in there. oxygen levels will drop rapidly, even the most reasonable persons will go into panic mode. people push for the exits in BOTH directions. at the entrance to the festival area, where the two tunnels meet, people are crushed together, with the gates closed they have no route to escape.
On July 26 2010 08:08 Chairman Ray wrote: I think it's for the better that it happened. This will not only deter people from coming to future loveparades, but also deter people from attending overcrowded events as a whole.
What has that got to do with anything?
Why would it be good to deter people from going to the loveparade? Nothing ever really happend like that before, let them enjoy the music and have fun!
Overcrowded is only when the organisation isnt good enough, which in this case was the situation, but the Loveparade in Berlin had so many ways to exit the parade, It couldnt have happened there.
So you saying because of your two reasons, its okay that 18 people died, just to support 2 statements? Why arent you banned yet?
On July 26 2010 21:13 JohnColtrane wrote: uhhh if nobody was an aggressive retard pushing and pulling and stomping, then 19 people would've died. sure the organisers made a fuckup and sure most people didnt have anything to do with it, but obviously there was at least one dickfuck that thought it would be a good idea to start pushing and shoving
You do understand that when being in a tunel like that, with a huge group, you (believe it or not) do stupid things.
Hint: guess why its called panic, someone panics and tries to get out and uhh he/she pushes and pulls oh wait panic wouldnt come if the tunel wasnt overcrowded...
yeah i know people do stupid things, its pretty obvious since 20 people were crushed to death -.- but so what? if you do something stupid and push someone and they fall over and get crushed, im going to blame the pusher
people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events
On July 26 2010 21:13 JohnColtrane wrote: uhhh if nobody was an aggressive retard pushing and pulling and stomping, then 19 people would've died. sure the organisers made a fuckup and sure most people didnt have anything to do with it, but obviously there was at least one dickfuck that thought it would be a good idea to start pushing and shoving
While I agree, there probably were some idiots pushing. I would guess they weren't the root of the problem which lead to these events.
The problem comes from the fact that you have a wall of people, all wanting to move in seperate directions. Imagine trying to get from the front of that crowd to the back. It would be near impossible. How do you move through a crowd like that? People are going to have to move out of the way to let someone through. And when they move out of the way, they are forced to push other people. Being pushed in a crowd so densely packed results in waves of pushing, as one person is pushed into another who is pushed into another etc. At some points, there is nowhere for people to go (like the concrete edges of the tunnel) and when the wave of pushing reaches these areas, the people there have no choice but to push back. This results in the people in the middle being crushed from multiple directions. Then someone falls down. People who are being pushed in that direction are now stuck trying to fight against a crowd so they are not pushed onto the fallen person. They will not be able to stop themselves from being pushed onto this person and the falled person will be stomped. People freak out, start pushing back on the crowd trying to get this person out which leads to others being crushed. People being crushed try to find a way to get out, resulting in more pushing as people need to move to let them through. As members of the crowd realise they are in danger of being crushed, they panic and try to get out, which results in more pushing.
This snowballing effect causes the disasterous effects that we've seen. No-one is necessarily at fault. Its a problem with cramming 1.4 million people into an area deemed safe for only 250,000 and with no clear layout for allowing the movement of a crowd.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
An overcrowded church -_-;; OK... Panicing is not something you decide to do. It happens in a life-threatening situation. It's a primal instinct and how one would react is impossible to know. In this situation a small stairway was opened to allow people to get out of the overcrowded areas. The crowed moved in the direction of the stairs. Just imagine 100000 people pressing in your back and you can't flee.
On July 26 2010 22:23 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah i know people do stupid things, its pretty obvious since 20 people were crushed to death -.- but so what? if you do something stupid and push someone and they fall over and get crushed, im going to blame the pusher
people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events
are you serious
the planners selected a venue with a shitfuck entrance. How the hell do you not blame them first? It was foreseeable that the entrance was too small for the amount of people. How is that not at all on the planners.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
You've gotta be kidding me.
You would panic. You are human. Maybe you were in trouble at 12, but you weren't in enough trouble to lead to you to panic. Anyone whos been in a situation where they have legitamately been in a panic will know that its not a choice they make, its a very normal reaction to a dangerous situation.
On July 26 2010 22:23 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah i know people do stupid things, its pretty obvious since 20 people were crushed to death -.- but so what? if you do something stupid and push someone and they fall over and get crushed, im going to blame the pusher
people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events
u are SO not getting it.. watch the videos take a look at the pictures available..
Think of 5-10 of the nicest and most polite, fairest individuals u know. Multiply those individuals by 100.000 and but all of them in the same spot those people have been in. There is NO difference at all. People will die and its not the peoples fault !
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
Yah you are amazing sir but you just alive because god dont let nobody die in is house he think is bm and rude.
Is not the first time this happend and is not the last time. Could be worse
I love people who say they wouldnt panic like the rest of humanity, coz they believe they control their body. YOU DONT! I dont care about ure super-church-memory...but if ure body decides to panic, YOU panic.
btw I also been in an overcrowded train, I didnt panic, still I dont go around saying I WOULD NEVER PANIC!
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
I think you really, by a far measure, underestimate group behavior. That place was way too crowded and the people there were partly drunk or under influence of drugs, there was only one way to go too. The person who pushed might have lost it, but it's not only his fault, the blame lies to a very big part on the security and event organizers for choosing a location that was said to fit in 500.000 people or even less, when around a million or more were expected to come.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
I know a guy that works in Health and Safety, in particular football stadium safety, the amount of exits that a stadium is legally required to have, is many more than where at the love parade, and many stadiums have lower attendance.
I hope the organisers get charged quite frankly, serious miss-management.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
well moshpits are kind of different, in most situations like this people cant even move their arms from their bodies, let alone bend over to pick someone up, its such a dense mass of people that once someone goes down there is no way to get back up, there just isn't room for people to back away.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
The problem in huge crowds is the lack of feedback, there is not enough information exchanged. The people that are actually exerting the force don't even know that they are endangering people, 20 meters is a huge distance in a crowd like that.
Witnesses that were in the most dangerous zones said it was so crowded that it was impossible to help other people up. People didn't necessarily lose their mind. Also trampling is most often not the actual cause of death, it is the compression of the lungs that interferes with breathing. The pressure is just that high. I have heard a witness saying he saw a girl's face turn blue (due to the lack of oxygen) and there was nothing he could do to help her.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
It's not like there was a stampede, or people being trampled to death. They were pressed against a wall and suffocated. When there is 10 people per square meter nobody gets pushed to the ground let alone can anyone pick someone up should one be on the ground. Also the only ones panicking were most likely the ones who couldn't breath anymore. No one was "losing their minds".
If you're with the girl you love in the crowed and people are crushing her and you, you hear her crying but nothing you can do, you start pushing back to open a gap for her to breath but you can't. This is when you panic and I don't care if you're a Navy Seal, you start getting pissed because people are crushing you and you'r loved one and because you can't push 100,000 people back. Don't tell me you would just calmly stand there with no air, being crushed along with you'r girl. I call B.S.
On July 26 2010 21:46 Ksyper wrote: It's not only the security's fault, even if I was in that situation I would never panic, I've been in a overcrowded church when I was about 12 and I couldn't breathe half the time, but I stayed calm because even back then I knew panic would make things a lot worse for me. People aren't sheep they should be expected to think for themselves. Argh! I'm mad, I'll end this post.
well yeah congrats to you for being able to control yourself. I know my girlfriend would have started to panic in that situation and I don't think she is a "sheep". Just because you are mentally strong you can't expect everyone to just stay calm in situations of fear, if anything you should defend people that are weaker than you and not call them stupid...
I always admire the athmosphere at punk concerts. You got people moshing and crowd surfing and everyone is drunk as fuck and it doesn't seem too friendly on first sight if you have never been to such a thing, but the moment you fall down there is a circle of 10 people around you who all try to help you up again. I never seen that in other big crowds were you have to be lucky if people stop moving and one person actually stops and helps you up again because he cares about you.
I know what you mean, I've been in a few mosh pits and that's why I got mad while writing my comment, I mean in the mosh pit you are trying to push the other people away as hard as you can, and still it's very very rare for someone to die in a mosh pit because like you said people pick you up right after you fall so that you don't get stomped on. The 19 people that died there probably could have all been saved if they were picked off the ground and put back on their feet. It just makes me angry to know that people can lose their minds like that and kill someone without even realising that they did so.
The problem in huge crowds is the lack of feedback, there is not enough information exchanged. The people that are actually exerting the force don't even know that they are endangering people, 20 meters is a huge distance in a crowd like that.
Witnesses that were in the most dangerous zones said it was so crowded that it was impossible to help other people up. People didn't necessarily lose their mind. Also trampling is most often not the actual cause of death, it is the compression of the lungs that interferes with breathing. The pressure is just that high. I have heard a witness saying he saw a girl's face turn blue (due to the lack of oxygen) and there was nothing he could do to help her.
That sound like a very fucked up situation to be in, I thought people had enough room to at least put their elbows infront of them, but I guess I underestimated the situation.
I apologize for referencing someones sick joke with technoviking. TBH more people die everyday because of simpler things. e.g. not being fed.
Not to say you can't weigh the value of life of 1,000 people dying and 19 people dying but I will not forget that shit happens, and we should all learn from this.
Atleast 14 people died close to the stairs shown in this video:
Those stairs were actually supposed to be closed, but after the crowd slowed down and progress was minimal people actually managed to break the barriers and climb the stairs. Maybe some police officer felt sorry for them and helped, I don't know.
This created a very dangerous situation, however, since it worked like a fanal:
People in the crowd finally see an exit after waiting for so long and start to converge on it, the stair becomes a focal point of the pressure. All the while the actual number of people exiting is very small, because the exit is so tiny, and the pressure is not falling but mounting. Atleast 14 people were crushed at this location.
The lesson:
If you are in a dense crowd and see a small exit opening up, don't go for it unless you are very close.
If you are far away just wait and tell other people to wait, you could save some lives in the front rows.
If you are somewhere in the middle and are shoved towards such a focal point, try to move sideways. You cannot go against the full force of the crowd, but by moving sideways you can get away from the focal point while meeting minimal resistance. Or maybe you can organize the people around you to build a wall that reduces the pressure. If these options shouldn't work, better start praying.
On July 26 2010 22:23 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah i know people do stupid things, its pretty obvious since 20 people were crushed to death -.- but so what? if you do something stupid and push someone and they fall over and get crushed, im going to blame the pusher
people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events
u are SO not getting it.. watch the videos take a look at the pictures available..
Think of 5-10 of the nicest and most polite, fairest individuals u know. Multiply those individuals by 100.000 and but all of them in the same spot those people have been in. There is NO difference at all. People will die and its not the peoples fault !
Seriously.. your post makes me angry
The nicest and most polite people I know would help the person up who fell and save their life.
On July 26 2010 22:23 JohnColtrane wrote: yeah i know people do stupid things, its pretty obvious since 20 people were crushed to death -.- but so what? if you do something stupid and push someone and they fall over and get crushed, im going to blame the pusher
people need to take some responsibility when it comes to these events
u are SO not getting it.. watch the videos take a look at the pictures available..
Think of 5-10 of the nicest and most polite, fairest individuals u know. Multiply those individuals by 100.000 and but all of them in the same spot those people have been in. There is NO difference at all. People will die and its not the peoples fault !
Seriously.. your post makes me angry
The nicest and most polite people I know would help the person up who fell and save their life.
Holy shit.. your idiocy piss me off. You *can't* help somebody up in this situation.. did you just create this account to anger people? Look at the video quoted by this person from Germany.. how can you help somebody up in such a situation..
On July 27 2010 00:41 Maenander wrote: Atleast 14 people died close to the stairs shown in this video:
Those stairs were actually supposed to be closed, but after the crowd slowed down and progress was minimal people actually managed to break the barriers and climb the stairs. Maybe some police officer felt sorry for them and helped, I don't know.
This created a very dangerous situation, however, since it worked like a fanal:
People in the crowd finally see an exit after waiting for so long and start to converge on it, the stair becomes a focal point of the pressure. All the while the actual number of people exiting is very small, because the exit is so tiny, and the pressure is not falling but mounting. Atleast 14 people were crushed at this location.
The lesson:
If you are in a dense crowd and see a small exit opening up, don't go for it unless you are very close.
If you are far away just wait and tell other people to wait, you could save some lives in the front rows.
If you are somewhere in the middle and are shoved towards such a focal point, try to move sideways. You cannot go against the full force of the crowd, but by moving sideways you can get away from the focal point while meeting minimal resistance. Or maybe you can organize the people around you to build a wall that reduces the pressure. If these options shouldn't work, better start praying.
Some people have the willpower to do something and some don't, your opinion is your own but I think that putting all the burdens on the organizers is quite unjust and unfair to be honest.
On July 27 2010 02:12 zoNin wrote: Some people have the willpower to do something and some don't, your opinion is your own but I think that putting all the burdens on the organizers is quite unjust and unfair to be honest.
I told you to read the thread before posting. Do not post here again before you have completed that or your opinion will just be considered trolling and you will be banned for it.
Organizers for choosing a retarded place. People for not listening to warnings or using their own sane logic. I'd say the organizers have more to pay for, however, for being so naive and ignoring the worst-case scenarios. Regardless of what people should hold responsibility for, if you're going to host such an event that attracts 1 million+ people, you are being unrealistic if you are not preparing for the ridiculous nature of massive groups of people. Sure, maybe in some distant future our society will improve and people may never do this again. But you can't bank on that ever happening now.
I detest large groups because people do dumb shit like this. However, I understand that things happen that go beyond normal human control, such as panicking when you can't breathe. However, the people flowing in did ignore police warnings to not enter, which were apparently over loudspeakers according to OP. If that is true, then I have to blame the attendees as well.
What gets me is this thread has people trying to blame one or the other. I think that's a false dilemma, I think both the attendees and organizers are to blame. However, the organizers are more responsible and could have avoided this altogether, so they share a bigger portion of my disgust. At least it isn't happening again. Well, I don't know, it probably is a shame for the people who enjoy this, and I'm sure someone in the future will be less retarded.
I think its natural when you see everyone inching forward to move forward yourself. But when you're at the back you don't usually realize that slowly the front is getting dangerously overcrowded. I've experienced this on popular free events and safety should be the event organizer's responsibility.
Lets be harsh here, but not so harsh that i am crazy but harsh in a balanced way. People are destroying the environment, so when 19 people dies its good for the environment, thus it was good. Ofcourse ppl get injuried in the proces too and thats where it is sad. What i am trying to say is that we are almost 7 billion people, just how bad then, can it be that 19 people dies?
We have tried to change our harmful ways towards the environment for 50 years +- 20 years, and failed at that. We tried to increase our effeciency so we wouldnt waste so much. That, we failed at, we cant have succes through means of increasing our effeciency, sure it will help but we wont reach the goal. We need to look into the fact that we are 7 billion people and do something about it.
On July 27 2010 08:34 exeexe wrote: Lets be harsh here, but not so harsh that i am crazy but harsh in a balanced way. People are destroying the environment, so when 19 people dies its good for the environment, thus it was good. Ofcourse ppl get injuried in the proces too and thats where it is sad. What i am trying to say is that we are almost 7 billion people, just how bad can it be then that 19 people dies?
We have tried to change our harmful ways towards the environment for 50 years +- 20 years, and failed at that. We tried to increase our effeciency so we wouldnt waste so much. That, we failed at, we cant have succes through means of increasing our effeciency, sure it will help but we wont reach the goal. We need to look into the fact that we are 7 billion people and do something about it.
How about we start by killing you, your family and all your friends?
On July 27 2010 08:34 exeexe wrote: Lets be harsh here, but not so harsh that i am crazy but harsh in a balanced way. People are destroying the environment, so when 19 people dies its good for the environment, thus it was good. Ofcourse ppl get injuried in the proces too and thats where it is sad. What i am trying to say is that we are almost 7 billion people, just how bad can it be then that 19 people dies?
We have tried to change our harmful ways towards the environment for 50 years +- 20 years, and failed at that. We tried to increase our effeciency so we wouldnt waste so much. That, we failed at, we cant have succes through means of increasing our effeciency, sure it will help but we wont reach the goal. We need to look into the fact that we are 7 billion people and do something about it.
How about we start by killing you, your family and all your friends?
I propose a global stampede to help counter overpopulation issues.
On July 27 2010 08:34 exeexe wrote: Lets be harsh here, but not so harsh that i am crazy but harsh in a balanced way. People are destroying the environment, so when 19 people dies its good for the environment, thus it was good. Ofcourse ppl get injuried in the proces too and thats where it is sad. What i am trying to say is that we are almost 7 billion people, just how bad then, can it be that 19 people dies?
We have tried to change our harmful ways towards the environment for 50 years +- 20 years, and failed at that. We tried to increase our effeciency so we wouldnt waste so much. That, we failed at, we cant have succes through means of increasing our effeciency, sure it will help but we wont reach the goal. We need to look into the fact that we are 7 billion people and do something about it.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,2895474,00.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-114255-galleryV9-drmu.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Unterführung_in_Duisburg_am_ehemaligen_Güterbahnhof_DSCF0640.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/2446/massenpanik118vgrossgal.jpg)
