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On July 15 2010 23:49 aseq wrote:Don't couples receive those privileges to be in a prime position to start a family with kids? I thought the government promoted family life this way. So if gay couples are going to do that (through adoption or artificial insemination for lesbians) im fine with that. But I also think the concept of marriage as we know it is a christian event, and I think it's hypocrite to let gays marry in church, when the religion itself is against it. The two (state marriage and church marriage) should be treated separately. If you ask me, having gay parents isn't really the best situation for kids either (gl in high school, son of a fairy  ), but it can be a lot better than the situation they would be in otherwise.
*Phsyduck picture*
Can you tell me why straight sterile people can get married? I'd really like someone to answer that question.
Marriage is neither a strictly Christian concept, nor is it even a religious concept. To get married, to need to go to the town hall and obtain a marriage license, the actual church ceremony is all pomp and circumstance and has no bearing on whether or not you are married.
The concept of marriage is about property. A man "buys" his wife from her previous family, traditionally in the way of a dowery. Now, most people can agree that the base motives for marriage (owning a wife) are largely irrelevent in western society. The other aspects, such as having visitation rights and the final say in legal matters over your spouse can be seen as modern extensions of this concept.
The idea that marriage is primarily for procreation was dead before homosexuality is even considered. It's socially acceptable to be married and never have children. Likewise, it's socially acceptable to have children and never get married. In fact, most countries have even implemented laws creating common-law marriages that protect couples who have cohabitated for significant periods of time regardless of other factors.
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United States12607 Posts
On July 16 2010 00:12 GogoKodo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 23:49 aseq wrote:Don't couples receive those privileges to be in a prime position to start a family with kids? I thought the government promoted family life this way. So if gay couples are going to do that (through adoption or artificial insemination for lesbians) im fine with that. But I also think the concept of marriage as we know it is a christian event, and I think it's hypocrite to let gays marry in church, when the religion itself is against it. The two (state marriage and church marriage) should be treated separately. If you ask me, having gay parents isn't really the best situation for kids either (gl in high school, son of a fairy ), but it can be a lot better than the situation they would be in otherwise. This is something I see fairly often that needs to be addressed. You yourself point out in the next sentence that state marriage and church marriage should be treated separately. That's exactly how it works now, and it's exactly how it will continue to work after gay marriage is legalized. Legalizing gay marriage does nothing to churches that don't want to marry gay people, they can continue to do so. What it does allow is for gay couples to become married in the eyes of the law, granting certain benefits, rights and responsibilities. No religion is being forced to marry gay couples. Also there are various church denominations out there that already are open to marrying gay couples as others have pointed out.
Just wanted to agree, and say that GogoKodo raises some very good points that are often overlooked by those opposed to legalizing gay marriage.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption?
What's next, marriage with female goats? Zoophiles have rights too. I hope you won't claim that's it's improper comparison, we talk about sexual orientations here, and those are notably common. So what if one is not human, the brain consists of pretty much same neural connections, dogs have feelings and love too. You won't believe how many people would marry a dog, and why would society deprive those people of their rights? And this married couple can always adopt a kid.
How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride?
Then there's some dude in Japan that married a pillow with anime face on it, let's just make marriage a joke, a vague concept just so everybody can have pride and equality, hell, just abolish marriage, this concept is outdated and unfair.
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16987 Posts
On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride?
I would gladly have two fathers or two mothers instead of a father who drinks too much, gets violent and abusive towards my mother, and molests me at night.
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On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? What's next, marriage with female goats? Zoophiles have rights too. I hope you won't claim that's it's improper comparison, we talk about sexual orientations here, and those are notably common. So what if one is not human, the brain consists of pretty much same neural connections, dogs have feelings and love too. You won't believe how many people would marry a dog, and why would society deprive those people of their rights? And this married couple can always adopt a kid. How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride? Then there's some dude in Japan that married a pillow with anime face on it, let's just make marriage a joke, a vague concept just so everybody can have pride and equality, hell, just abolish marriage, this concept is outdated and unfair.
Too EZ. Because I'm going to try and get back to sleep, I'll let someone else address this lunacy.
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On July 16 2010 00:12 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 00:02 BillyMole wrote:On July 15 2010 23:57 JWD wrote:American law looking more and more backwards on this issue.  Heh, it has nothing to do with law, since there is not actually anything on the books that prevents same-sex marriage. What? Many states have laws that specify marriage is between a man and a woman. The Federal government has no authority to make such a law, but has done its part with the Defense of Marriage Act, which provides that states do not have to recognize other states' same-sex marriages. Furthermore we have a Supreme Court that has held (if in dicta) that the Constitution does not invalidate same-sex marriage bans. So yes, American law is quite backwards on same-sex marriage. Even if there was nothing on the books to get in the way of same-sex marriage, this issue would still have to do with the law because the only way to get same-sex marriage in some (especially Red) states in the foreseeable future is through some Supreme Court decision or Federal statute.
Yes, I misspoke. I meant to say that, until people started making such a big deal about it a few years ago, there were no federal laws that stood in the way. I sometimes forget that this country is so messed up that you have to know 50 states' individual laws to get around.
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On July 16 2010 00:13 party wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 00:00 Empyrean wrote:
Right, but Germans are, on a population level, much more socially liberal than Americans are. Compare your healthcare system, for example, to the millions of Americans who are scared that a government option for health insurance is an unacceptable form of socialism that'll turn America into a fascist country (I'm not making this up).
EDIT: Also population acceptance of man-made global warming (not even a social issue...it's a scientific issue here), women's rights in abortion, etc. On virtually every contentious issue, the German population is much more socially liberal than the American population is. all good and true examples, i just wanted to make this clear since even many germans seem to forget that in gay rights we are as backwards as you hillbillies . for example when the prop 8?9? (sorry forgot to lazy to check) was going on there were many german commentaries about the old fashioned american society, while totally blending out how "modern" ours is in this field.
The pro prop 8 people got absolutely destroyed during the trial though. The most important part of prop 8 wasn't the "is gay marriage a sin?" bullshit but the fact that prop 8's defence needed to prove that gay marriage was inherently harmful to both those involved and society as a whole.
Walker still hasn't rendered a verdict, which is dissappointing to say the least. It should be out by the end of the summer though.
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i hope you see the difference between marrying a human and marrying an animal or even an object. but you are making me sad so i stop talking to you.
(to magic84)
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On July 16 2010 00:18 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride? I would gladly have two fathers or two mothers instead of a father who drinks too much, gets violent and abusive towards my mother, and molests me at night.
This. Seriously, where do people get off trying to dictate who would make suitable parents? I know many, many straight couples who would make awful parents, and I don't see anyone trying to tell them that they can't have kids.
Moreover, I cannot believe that people are still touting that old line that children of same-sex couples are messed up. That was disproven a long, long time ago.
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United States12607 Posts
On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? What's next, marriage with female goats? Zoophiles have rights too. I hope you won't claim that's it's improper comparison, we talk about sexual orientations here, and those are notably common. So what if one is not human, the brain consists of pretty much same neural connections, dogs have feelings and love too. You won't believe how many people would marry a dog, and why would society deprive those people of their rights? And this married couple can always adopt a kid.
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1748
Also, it's not merely "assumption" that same-sex parents are good parents, it's a conclusion supported by tons of empirical evidence.
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On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? What's next, marriage with female goats? Zoophiles have rights too. I hope you won't claim that's it's improper comparison, we talk about sexual orientations here, and those are notably common. So what if one is not human, the brain consists of pretty much same neural connections, dogs have feelings and love too. You won't believe how many people would marry a dog, and why would society deprive those people of their rights? And this married couple can always adopt a kid. How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride? Then there's some dude in Japan that married a pillow with anime face on it, let's just make marriage a joke, a vague concept just so everybody can have pride and equality, hell, just abolish marriage, this concept is outdated and unfair.
Just imagine some white person have the ridiculous idea of marrying a black person. that would be awkward and definitely not healthy for anyone.
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On July 16 2010 00:22 BillyMole wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 00:18 Empyrean wrote:On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride? I would gladly have two fathers or two mothers instead of a father who drinks too much, gets violent and abusive towards my mother, and molests me at night. This. Seriously, where do people get off trying to dictate who would make suitable parents? I know many, many straight couples who would make awful parents, and I don't see anyone trying to tell them that they can't have kids. Moreover, I cannot believe that people are still touting that old line that children of same-sex couples are messed up. That was disproven a long, long time ago.
Hell, if I had a choice, right now, between giving a kid to the most recent couple on my facebook page to have a baby and one of my gay friends from high school and his long term boyfriend. I would give it to the latter.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On July 16 2010 00:18 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride? I would gladly have two fathers or two mothers instead of a father who drinks too much, gets violent and abusive towards my mother, and molests me at night.
But what if there are 2 fathers who'd molest you at night instead, and no mom. See how easy it is to argue this way?
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I live in the most segregated country on earth. At least when it comes to religion and the state. We even have female priests, something that caused outrage with some of the more fanatic american groups. We are gay loving satan huggers \o/. Isn't the entire point of marriage that you and your spous goes "Sup' God we kinda like each other and would like to stay together, just thought we would give you a memo", because in Sweden you can get a non religious marriage, meaning that you have a fancy dress and a fancy party and all that, but you don't mention god aswell as gaining all legal stuff that is associated with marriages.
Or you could just get a partnership, were you skip all the cermonies and just go sign a paper that gives the same rights as a married couple. So to turn back to the point, isn't marriages just a religious ritual were you and your loved ones tells god that you want to be together? If so, it's ridiculous to outlaw it, because what possible harm could it do? It's kind of annoying always seeing these people crusade about an issue that's clearly stated in ze bibel that you shouldn't do. You're not supposed to be the religious police, that's a major freaking point in most religions. Humans arn't the ones who are supposed to judge you, that's a huge part of christianity.
So, is it that the other ways of getting all the legal done without the religious cermony in US that we have here, doesn't exist? If they do, and infact even if they arn't, they really should be. If they are, why would people even contemplate not letting them get married? I mean if god really hates that, he will have a very stern talk with them in the afterlife.
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16987 Posts
On July 16 2010 00:25 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 00:18 Empyrean wrote:On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride? I would gladly have two fathers or two mothers instead of a father who drinks too much, gets violent and abusive towards my mother, and molests me at night. But what if there are 2 fathers who'd molest you at night instead, and no mom. See how easy it is to argue this way?
Sorry, I should've been more clear. Two loving fathers.
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On July 16 2010 00:25 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 00:18 Empyrean wrote:On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride? I would gladly have two fathers or two mothers instead of a father who drinks too much, gets violent and abusive towards my mother, and molests me at night. But what if there are 2 fathers who'd molest you at night instead, and no mom. See how easy it is to argue this way?
Amazing that you missed his point completely. Amazing. /flabbergasted.
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so is the law that all priests have an obligation to marry gay couples or is it just that the state will not interfere?
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United States12607 Posts
On July 16 2010 00:25 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 00:18 Empyrean wrote:On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride? I would gladly have two fathers or two mothers instead of a father who drinks too much, gets violent and abusive towards my mother, and molests me at night. But what if there are 2 fathers who'd molest you at night instead, and no mom. See how easy it is to argue this way?
Dude, come off it. You have to realize that what you are arguing (that same-sex parenting is inferior) is wrong wrong wrong, it's like arguing that the Earth isn't round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting
There is a consensus among credible scientific researchers which confirms the abilities of gay and lesbian persons as parents, and finds positive outcomes for their children. Statements by the leading associations of experts in this area reflect professional consensus that children raised by lesbian or gay parents do not differ in any important respects from those raised by heterosexual parents. No credible empirical research suggests otherwise.[8]
I mean this is Wikipedia here, not some "loony" gay rights blog. Get your facts straight, Magic84. Also I'll add that nobody is going to bug you if you change your mind on this issue. Actually that would be fantastic.
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On July 16 2010 00:25 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 00:18 Empyrean wrote:On July 16 2010 00:15 Magic84 wrote:On July 15 2010 22:45 Zurles wrote:On July 15 2010 22:42 Magic84 wrote:
I don't see the point of this marriage. For me marriage is about making and raising offsprings, two people passing on their bloodline together as nature intended, marriage also ensures protection for mother with kid financially most of the time. Without it you can just as well live together without any official procedures and papers. A lot of same sex marriages are for raising offspring through adoption? How can people automatically assume that such environment is healthy for the child? Healthy for his interaction with other kids and social life? Isn't it taking human's life worth of a risk for the sake or your own fun and pride? I would gladly have two fathers or two mothers instead of a father who drinks too much, gets violent and abusive towards my mother, and molests me at night. But what if there are 2 fathers who'd molest you at night instead, and no mom. See how easy it is to argue this way?
You missed his point completly. The point is that there are a ton of unfit straight parents around, and a ton of very fit gay parents around. Not that unfit gay parents doesn't exist. Your argument is flawed.
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On July 16 2010 00:27 Ossian wrote:
so is the law that all priests have an obligation to marry gay couples or is it just that the state will not interfere?
Like someone said earlier. Getting married by a priest or elvis doesn't make a difference in law. You just need a marriage license.
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EPT
