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On May 07 2004 22:22 JoeSaddles wrote:
I thought war 3 was really shitty, I haven't played the expansion though. compared to bw everything is slower and there is much less skill involved... bw takes years to become gosu, I felt like I coulda mastered war 3 in a fraction of that time... however i haven't played the expansion so i dunno about that.
It does seem a lot easier. When I first started playing, I began for a tournament in my city. I only planned to play it for 3 weeks. I thought it would be easy to get awesome at. But, it turned out to be a lot harder than I thought, once I actually got good enough to the point where I knew about the metagame. There's a lot more than meets the eye. It got more and more challenging the better I got, and I became hooked.
I only played a month of RoC so I'm not sure how hard that game was, I just know the two games are very, very different. I think a lot of people base their opinions on War3 off of RoC because of Star Craft's relationship with Brood War. The two are just much different.
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hey orlandu. remmer the last time we had this chat? you never answered for some reason. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=12&topic_id=10906
On February 09 2004 17:13 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
Although the "which game is better" debate can never actually reach a conclusion, as it's based, in its entirety, upon opinion, you can actually delve into the games on a technical level.
Being someone who has successfully played both games, it's easy to see where the differences lie. To iterate:
BW & TFT are both RTS games. There are actually people who claim Total Annihilation is better than BW. There are people who claim that (insert game here) is the best. The reason why these two games are compared so often is because they're both Blizzard games, and BW players expected Warcraft III to be Starcraft II. Disappointed, they went on to find reasons why the game was so terrible. The general trend seems to be that Warcraft III is "simplistic," or even, "overly simplified."
Blizzard themselves have iterated over and over again that they don't want the game to cater to players at a high skill level. They say things like "heros should be scary," instead of "let's make things balanced." War3 is a game that a young teenager can play on and off and be decent at. It's far more user-friendly. That's what Blizzard wanted it to be. They wanted anyone to be able to play and feel that they're decent. They wanted the most skilled players (smallest percentage of gamers), who would play the game no matter what, to be brought down pegs by gamers who are not of the same skill level.
BW is the complete opposite. If you're highly skilled at BW, the chances of you losing to someone who is rungs below you is not very high. In War3 skill levels are far more ambivalent. The top players can lose to weaker players who got lucky item drops, &c.
The main reason War3 is silly, is because it is so random and ambivalent. The people on this board are NOT THE PEOPLE BLIZZARD CATERS TO. They cater to people who will buy the game and use their service a little (driving down their costs), and who don't whine to them to fix the game (driving down their costs), and who think the game is great and will buy more (driving up their profits). So if a newbie can log on a couple hours a week and win, they'll enjoy their time and purchase more Blizzard games. People who post on boards or talk about micro of APM or anything like that (or even complain about balance issues, &c.) are not the people Blizzard cares about. Why do you think they're releasing an MMORPG? MMORPGs are what allowed the commonplace computer idiot to play games and feel like they're good at them. Then they get sucked in and waste even more money.
Warcraft III is NOT COMPLEX. Why would Blizzard even attempt to make it more complex, when they know that complexity is not what's going to make them money? Do you think as many people buy Steel Panthers? Most of the people who buy the game only play single-player. That's what Blizzard designed the game for. Do you think they want to waste money hosting free online services? (Read: Yet another reason why they are making an MMORPG).
This being said, claiming that The Frozen Throne is more complex than Brood War are unfounded. Occam's Razor... Blizzard is a company. They want to make money. More money is spent on simple games than complex ones.
The mechanics behind the game also prove that point.
When Warcraft III was released, a high level player could win just using heros. Now, of course, changes have been put in place to stop this, but the game is still entirely based on heros. Move hero back when he's getting damaged, cast hero spell, &c. Do you know why the Beastmaster is still so abusive? Because they didn't do anything to fix it. Do you know why? "Bears need to be scary." If you can go 127-0 using the same abusive strategy, there's something wrong with the game. The innate flaw in the game is the heros. You can't balance a game so ridiculously diverse as TFT (due to heros and Blizzard's stupidity), whereas BW has become far more balanced since its release. There are only three valid strategies for winning at a high level of TFT, and one of those is only valid if the Undead player is at a far superior skill level to his opponent. The other only works in certain cases where the opponent is a short distance away.
TFT = Build hero, learn how to move hero back when he's under attack, learn how to focus fire. The game is far more forgiving with errors. Even an idiot can have a good start, and even an idiot can have a good economy. The units have far more HP and die far slower. You can make huge mistakes and still win. You get random items that can sometimes dictate who wins and who loses. Blizzard refuses to balance the game.
BW = You must play flawlessly to beat people of the same skill level. Errors are not easily forgiven. Units have lower HP and die much quicker. Gameplay is faster. Superior balancing.
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So which game is better? It depends on your opinion.
Which game takes more skill to play? Definitely BW, without a doubt. If you disagree, then you're not looking at any facts whatsoever.
Warcraft III isn't even as micro-intensive as BW. All you do is move units that are getting damaged back. It promotes not attacking your opponent. The viable quantity of strategies are far lower than those of Brood War.
On February 09 2004 17:49 Orlandu wrote:
I'm not gonna read all of stimey's post, but I find it extremely interesting that he he makes such a point of Blizzard intending for War3 to be without such high skill level and more of a "fun" game. Why do I find that interesting? Because Blizzard did the EXACT same thing with Brood War. Look at where it's at now? It's up to the players to make a game competitive, not the designer. They may play a role, but if it were all up to Blizzard, you wouldn't have damn near the BW you have today.
Nobody knows shit about War3 right now just as nobody knew shit about BW when it was at the age War3 is now. It's rediculous for anyone to pretend they know anything about the game other than what has worked for them via experience.
The logic accompanying many of the posts here isn't quite adding up, and the main reason I can see for that, is quite frankly, there's only been about 4 or 5 people including myself in this thread who have played War3 enough to have any idea of what it's all about. The only thing you people should be concerned with, is how to play BW and get the skill or entertainment you desire. It's obvious many of you don't care about War3, yet so many of you comment on it as if you know all about it. Highly unlikely with the contempt many of you hold for it.
As far as Insomnia's comments go, I think we've established all the possibilities of the scenario, and with that said, this thread no longer serves it's original purpose. If the rest of you wanna argue War3, go play the game for a couple months and make a new thread. It's tiresome to even read this anymore.
On February 09 2004 18:12 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
Orlandu - Warcraft III was specifically made to address concerns over Brood War being too hard to play competitively for the average weekend gamer. Saying that it wasn't made for this purpose is debating fact. E-Mail the design team and ask who the game was aimed at. With the success of games like Diablo II, Blizzard wanted to include a larger audience. If they made the game to cater for people who read this board, they wouldn't have bothered releasing it until it was patched to perfection, obviously.
You clearly don't know anything about the game whatsoever, as I was not belittling W3 in any way, shape or form. In fact, I'd rather play it than BW. The fact of the matter is, it is simplified. Any top player agrees with my perspective. So does the Blizzard staff.
You obviously didn't read my post (are you capable of reading a post? Perhaps you should before attempting to make patently false claims regarding everything). As for the game being made competitive by the players - Where did I talk about it? Any game can be competitive. I said that W3 was intended for the casual gamer, those gamers who felt that it was "too hard" to be "good" at BW. If you disagree, you are wrong, because Blizzard has clearly stated their intentions numerous times.
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I usually dont go back to threads after they disappear from the main page. I'll go read now.
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On May 07 2004 22:33 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote: hey orlandu. remmer the last time we had this chat? you never answered for some reason. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=12&topic_id=10906Show nested quote +On February 09 2004 17:13 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
Although the "which game is better" debate can never actually reach a conclusion, as it's based, in its entirety, upon opinion, you can actually delve into the games on a technical level.
Being someone who has successfully played both games, it's easy to see where the differences lie. To iterate:
BW & TFT are both RTS games. There are actually people who claim Total Annihilation is better than BW. There are people who claim that (insert game here) is the best. The reason why these two games are compared so often is because they're both Blizzard games, and BW players expected Warcraft III to be Starcraft II. Disappointed, they went on to find reasons why the game was so terrible. The general trend seems to be that Warcraft III is "simplistic," or even, "overly simplified."
Blizzard themselves have iterated over and over again that they don't want the game to cater to players at a high skill level. They say things like "heros should be scary," instead of "let's make things balanced." War3 is a game that a young teenager can play on and off and be decent at. It's far more user-friendly. That's what Blizzard wanted it to be. They wanted anyone to be able to play and feel that they're decent. They wanted the most skilled players (smallest percentage of gamers), who would play the game no matter what, to be brought down pegs by gamers who are not of the same skill level.
BW is the complete opposite. If you're highly skilled at BW, the chances of you losing to someone who is rungs below you is not very high. In War3 skill levels are far more ambivalent. The top players can lose to weaker players who got lucky item drops, &c.
The main reason War3 is silly, is because it is so random and ambivalent. The people on this board are NOT THE PEOPLE BLIZZARD CATERS TO. They cater to people who will buy the game and use their service a little (driving down their costs), and who don't whine to them to fix the game (driving down their costs), and who think the game is great and will buy more (driving up their profits). So if a newbie can log on a couple hours a week and win, they'll enjoy their time and purchase more Blizzard games. People who post on boards or talk about micro of APM or anything like that (or even complain about balance issues, &c.) are not the people Blizzard cares about. Why do you think they're releasing an MMORPG? MMORPGs are what allowed the commonplace computer idiot to play games and feel like they're good at them. Then they get sucked in and waste even more money.
Warcraft III is NOT COMPLEX. Why would Blizzard even attempt to make it more complex, when they know that complexity is not what's going to make them money? Do you think as many people buy Steel Panthers? Most of the people who buy the game only play single-player. That's what Blizzard designed the game for. Do you think they want to waste money hosting free online services? (Read: Yet another reason why they are making an MMORPG).
This being said, claiming that The Frozen Throne is more complex than Brood War are unfounded. Occam's Razor... Blizzard is a company. They want to make money. More money is spent on simple games than complex ones.
The mechanics behind the game also prove that point.
When Warcraft III was released, a high level player could win just using heros. Now, of course, changes have been put in place to stop this, but the game is still entirely based on heros. Move hero back when he's getting damaged, cast hero spell, &c. Do you know why the Beastmaster is still so abusive? Because they didn't do anything to fix it. Do you know why? "Bears need to be scary." If you can go 127-0 using the same abusive strategy, there's something wrong with the game. The innate flaw in the game is the heros. You can't balance a game so ridiculously diverse as TFT (due to heros and Blizzard's stupidity), whereas BW has become far more balanced since its release. There are only three valid strategies for winning at a high level of TFT, and one of those is only valid if the Undead player is at a far superior skill level to his opponent. The other only works in certain cases where the opponent is a short distance away.
TFT = Build hero, learn how to move hero back when he's under attack, learn how to focus fire. The game is far more forgiving with errors. Even an idiot can have a good start, and even an idiot can have a good economy. The units have far more HP and die far slower. You can make huge mistakes and still win. You get random items that can sometimes dictate who wins and who loses. Blizzard refuses to balance the game.
BW = You must play flawlessly to beat people of the same skill level. Errors are not easily forgiven. Units have lower HP and die much quicker. Gameplay is faster. Superior balancing.
---
So which game is better? It depends on your opinion.
Which game takes more skill to play? Definitely BW, without a doubt. If you disagree, then you're not looking at any facts whatsoever.
Warcraft III isn't even as micro-intensive as BW. All you do is move units that are getting damaged back. It promotes not attacking your opponent. The viable quantity of strategies are far lower than those of Brood War. Show nested quote +On February 09 2004 17:49 Orlandu wrote:
I'm not gonna read all of stimey's post, but I find it extremely interesting that he he makes such a point of Blizzard intending for War3 to be without such high skill level and more of a "fun" game. Why do I find that interesting? Because Blizzard did the EXACT same thing with Brood War. Look at where it's at now? It's up to the players to make a game competitive, not the designer. They may play a role, but if it were all up to Blizzard, you wouldn't have damn near the BW you have today.
Nobody knows shit about War3 right now just as nobody knew shit about BW when it was at the age War3 is now. It's rediculous for anyone to pretend they know anything about the game other than what has worked for them via experience.
The logic accompanying many of the posts here isn't quite adding up, and the main reason I can see for that, is quite frankly, there's only been about 4 or 5 people including myself in this thread who have played War3 enough to have any idea of what it's all about. The only thing you people should be concerned with, is how to play BW and get the skill or entertainment you desire. It's obvious many of you don't care about War3, yet so many of you comment on it as if you know all about it. Highly unlikely with the contempt many of you hold for it.
As far as Insomnia's comments go, I think we've established all the possibilities of the scenario, and with that said, this thread no longer serves it's original purpose. If the rest of you wanna argue War3, go play the game for a couple months and make a new thread. It's tiresome to even read this anymore. Show nested quote +On February 09 2004 18:12 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
Orlandu - Warcraft III was specifically made to address concerns over Brood War being too hard to play competitively for the average weekend gamer. Saying that it wasn't made for this purpose is debating fact. E-Mail the design team and ask who the game was aimed at. With the success of games like Diablo II, Blizzard wanted to include a larger audience. If they made the game to cater for people who read this board, they wouldn't have bothered releasing it until it was patched to perfection, obviously.
You clearly don't know anything about the game whatsoever, as I was not belittling W3 in any way, shape or form. In fact, I'd rather play it than BW. The fact of the matter is, it is simplified. Any top player agrees with my perspective. So does the Blizzard staff.
You obviously didn't read my post (are you capable of reading a post? Perhaps you should before attempting to make patently false claims regarding everything). As for the game being made competitive by the players - Where did I talk about it? Any game can be competitive. I said that W3 was intended for the casual gamer, those gamers who felt that it was "too hard" to be "good" at BW. If you disagree, you are wrong, because Blizzard has clearly stated their intentions numerous times.
There were many flaws with your original post, but you are correct in that Blizzard did intend for War3 to be much easier than BW. However, their intentions aren't how the game is destined to be played. I've said many, many times that War3 isn't as complex and difficult as Brood War. Although as days go on I find myself doubting that, the fact remains that War3 is still very complex and, yes, more micro-intensive than Brood War. Just because Brood War has the capacity to require more skill does not mean War3 does not have the capacity to require a large amount of skill as well.
Brood War was not mean to be the game that made pro-gaming what it is. But it was. Blizzard's intentions mean very little in how the game evolves.
The only thing I'm confused on is you called me wrong for many things I never stated. You also talked about many irrelevant things. So the main point as I can see is what is discussed above. There's very little disagreement that I can see, I'm just elaborating. If there's any other points you'd like to discuss, please feel free to point them out.
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To the retards that obviously have not played TFT and think there is no (or little) skill needed: STFU and win the thousands of dollars of prizes to prove us wrong.
TFT is just as hard to win at as BW. Go win a ton of money if it is so easy, you damn retards.
BW is my favorite game but your "TFT is too easy" arguments are foolish.
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"Although as days go on I find myself doubting that, the fact remains that War3 is still very complex and, yes, more micro-intensive than Brood War." owned
"Brood War was not mean to be the game that made pro-gaming what it is. But it was. Blizzard's intentions mean very little in how the game evolves." <-- blizzard keeps making giant patches. war3 is dominated far more by blizz than any other game. the whole game is blizzard trying to evolve it. huge major patches more major than any bw patch ever was. u cant say war3 has currently evolved out of blizz hands when those kinds of patches are a regular thing.
as for amat. well first of all, you're amat. second, to be the best in war3, u have to play war3 a lot, which is pretty horrible to most people. then you have u will hvae all ur hard work robbed by A) giant patches and B) luck factor blizz refuse to fix, als C) blizz trying to make the gap between elite players and the rest smaller in war3, so basically becoming "best" in war3 is self-defeating for all those reasons and inefficient, not to mention that market is already saturated.
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ill help since i am a former top w3 user -_-
http://www.esl-europe.net/eu/wc3l/ competition with all the best players/teams in the world they broadcast every game on live tv stream + radio and they post the replays right afther the games have ended so if u want a good w3 site this is the one.
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oh and any1 who flames w3 is stupid. yes most of u played it when it just came out well the game is totally differant now and when u play at high level (30+) ull see how differant the game is and how fucking hard it is. at this level the micro is fucking intense and i can't see most bw players handle it at that level
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Heh I fully agree with amat on that one, there's so many war3 money tournaments all the time, why don't the dorks who think it's so easy to win try it? And if it's so easy and all about luck, how come it's the same top players dominating every tourney?
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On May 07 2004 23:18 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
"Brood War was not mean to be the game that made pro-gaming what it is. But it was. Blizzard's intentions mean very little in how the game evolves." <-- blizzard keeps making giant patches. war3 is dominated far more by blizz than any other game. the whole game is blizzard trying to evolve it. huge major patches more major than any bw patch ever was. u cant say war3 has currently evolved out of blizz hands when those kinds of patches are a regular thing.
I get what you mean. War3 is definitely not as perfected as BW was. But I don't think their patches play as much of a role in TFT as they did in RoC when huge changes were made often.
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United Kingdom10597 Posts
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On May 08 2004 08:06 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: Show nested quote +On May 08 2004 00:48 Breeze wrote:
Heh I fully agree with amat on that one, there's so many war3 money tournaments all the time, why don't the dorks who think it's so easy to win try it? And if it's so easy and all about luck, how come it's the same top players dominating every tourney? well, what do the high level / ex-sc high level players think about how it compares to sc? i swear i saw at least one interview when they claim it's annoyingly inferior. i mean, if there's little margin between each of the top players (someone said this earlier), surely even the tiniest bit of luck (with items) is going to swing the game vastly in one direction?
The drops aren't nearly as random as they once were. You pretty much know exactly what you're going to get from what enemies (assuming you know the game and are anywhere near decent). But let's just assume you aren't very good and just decide to creep randomly, as does your opponent. Assuming you creeped similar level creeps, you may get different items, but with equal strength. You just have to know how to use each item. It's not like it used to be where Books of the Dead and Red Drake eggs drop commonly. It's really no more luck than what position you start at in BW (of which seems to be much less important in War3 so far). I guess there's some luck to it, but it's only luck when you don't know what you're doing.
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On May 07 2004 01:14 SpuniasauR wrote:
by the way maybe a pg player can tell me this, are the [pG] players in warcraft (aether, hunter, etched) old starcraft players? or is it even the same clan? i been wondering this for a while but i cant be sure if its just noobs taking the l337 tag [pG] hahaha
[pG] has a full squad of war3 players. most of them played bw b4, but not very successful. but [pG]Fisheye (wcg2003 2nd in bw) switched to war3(hes playing night elves) to compete at the Giga-Liga (http://liga.giga.de/). its a leage formed by a german tv channel (www.giga.de) where he won the last years broodwar tourney. but this year the removed broodwar from the top games (which feature cash prices) and now he can only win money by playing war3.
his last time on tv was wednesday, where he played a live game vs ocrana.d-link.take (human) which he won.
the finals of the league are on the 22nd of may. so we will see if he can make the jump from bw to war3 in 6 months (last giga.liga was in autumn)
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Spitting is one of the easiest things to do, but if a whole bunch of people were to get together and make a spitting league to see who could spit the farthest it would become very hard to be the furthest spitter. Everything requires a skill. The level of competitions is a measure of how much skill you need and much like BW, in WC3 the level of competition is very high. So to say that it's an easy game then you are retarded.
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rage they are saying its an eze game because they only played it when the game just started and they have no idea how the skill level is now and how hard it is to become their level
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On May 08 2004 16:00 SunShine wrote:
rage they are saying its an eze game because they only played it when the game just started and they have no idea how the skill level is now and how hard it is to become their level
Yeah, personally, I thought Reign of Chaos was MUCH easier as well. After 3 weeks, I was able to beat players who had been playing since the beginning, and I nearly toppled Faluzure at a live tournament, who was former #1 of Azeroth with a record of something like 2200-150, (I think he also had the first Medivh worldwide). This was partly due to the fact that I had spent so much time with Brood War, but I also do think Reign of Chaos was an easier game to learn (though to master I can speak nothing of). After those 3-4 weeks, TFT came out. Then, it got MUCH harder as time progressed, even though I had already become familiar with the game.
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War3 is a lot of fun, but I still have an interest in BW, that's why I come to this forum =//
Although I've only played a few BW games in the past... 2-3 years. Been playing war3 since ROC beta. Mainly just play arranged team ladder with my friends, but I've 'tried' to get a high rank in solo, never gone past level 18 =[
But I used to play in a lot of tournies, like MFO Smackdowns, and I even won the "king of the hill" tournament in TFT beta, beating Aether 3-2 in the finals ~_~;;
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funny thing is that 2 top wc3 players, insomnia (wcg champion) and grubby (cxg champion probably best orc player) actually say that wc3 is better then sc.
while they are both old starcraft players -_-;
it's all a matter of taste imo
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EPT
