war3 equivalent of tl.net?

On May 07 2004 00:06 Chibi[OWNS] wrote:
he wants to know the best wc3 forum / info website

On May 07 2004 01:14 SpuniasauR wrote:

by the way maybe a pg player can tell me this, are the [pG] players in warcraft (aether, hunter, etched) old starcraft players? or is it even the same clan? i been wondering this for a while but i cant be sure if its just noobs taking the l337 tag [pG] hahaha

On May 07 2004 05:19 SickofLife wrote:
It's strange. When I was following the War3 community non-Koreans dominated Koreans, and now Koreans are the best? Either way, I don't think Koreans have won any major tournaments outside Korea.

On May 07 2004 12:01 mindspike wrote:


Its not strange at all.
Korea has a better environment for pro gaming and thus their players become better over time.
Simple as that.

On May 07 2004 14:42 Radiohead wrote:
war3 is a fucking crap game. Anyone can be a top player in war3 only by watching a few reps. Skill does not exist in that game in any way.

Seriously, its like bw, but u take away micro, macro, multitasking and strategical possibilities. Then u add a lot of ugly 14-year old losers and a retarded 3d-thingy nobody use, and wow uve got warcraft3.

On May 07 2004 14:42 Radiohead wrote:
war3 is a fucking crap game. Anyone can be a top player in war3 only by watching a few reps. Skill does not exist in that game in any way.

Seriously, its like bw, but u take away micro, macro, multitasking and strategical possibilities. Then u add a lot of ugly 14-year old losers and a retarded 3d-thingy nobody use, and wow uve got warcraft3.

On May 07 2004 14:53 Orlandu wrote:


Ok, so let me get this straight... What you're trying to tell us, is that you haven't played the game and know nothing about it? Or that you have an inability to ignore threads about topics you abhor?

On May 07 2004 17:27 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:


actually i think we've all seen some players quit war3 while they are top and then say the exact same thing radiohead said so maybe ur the one whos "havent played the game, know nothing about it, or has inability to ignorare threads about topics they abhor" or maybe ur mom.

On May 07 2004 17:27 Radiohead wrote:
Of course ive played the game. i was top5 norway.

Its also impossible to have your own style in war3. everyone is doing exactly the same builds and strats, and luck becomes the deciding factor.
The only reason people play war3 instead of bw that i can think of is that they suck, and feel more confident about dices than their own abilities. imo, that makes them losers.

On May 07 2004 15:15 moseskim wrote:
and a lot of times it's hard to pinpoint exactly why you win or lose.

On May 07 2004 01:14 SpuniasauR wrote:
insomnia, madgfrog, heman, dominator etc. also grubby, cadx2craft, aether[pg] (just won acon4 in US), at-wizard, at-deadman
and a whole lot more. many v. good players, look in wcreplays.com interviews section.

On May 07 2004 22:22 JoeSaddles wrote:
I thought war 3 was really shitty, I haven't played the expansion though. compared to bw everything is slower and there is much less skill involved... bw takes years to become gosu, I felt like I coulda mastered war 3 in a fraction of that time... however i haven't played the expansion so i dunno about that.

On February 09 2004 17:13 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
Although the "which game is better" debate can never actually reach a conclusion, as it's based, in its entirety, upon opinion, you can actually delve into the games on a technical level.

Being someone who has successfully played both games, it's easy to see where the differences lie. To iterate:

BW & TFT are both RTS games. There are actually people who claim Total Annihilation is better than BW. There are people who claim that (insert game here) is the best. The reason why these two games are compared so often is because they're both Blizzard games, and BW players expected Warcraft III to be Starcraft II. Disappointed, they went on to find reasons why the game was so terrible. The general trend seems to be that Warcraft III is "simplistic," or even, "overly simplified."

Blizzard themselves have iterated over and over again that they don't want the game to cater to players at a high skill level. They say things like "heros should be scary," instead of "let's make things balanced." War3 is a game that a young teenager can play on and off and be decent at. It's far more user-friendly. That's what Blizzard wanted it to be. They wanted anyone to be able to play and feel that they're decent. They wanted the most skilled players (smallest percentage of gamers), who would play the game no matter what, to be brought down pegs by gamers who are not of the same skill level.

BW is the complete opposite. If you're highly skilled at BW, the chances of you losing to someone who is rungs below you is not very high. In War3 skill levels are far more ambivalent. The top players can lose to weaker players who got lucky item drops, &c.

The main reason War3 is silly, is because it is so random and ambivalent. The people on this board are NOT THE PEOPLE BLIZZARD CATERS TO. They cater to people who will buy the game and use their service a little (driving down their costs), and who don't whine to them to fix the game (driving down their costs), and who think the game is great and will buy more (driving up their profits). So if a newbie can log on a couple hours a week and win, they'll enjoy their time and purchase more Blizzard games. People who post on boards or talk about micro of APM or anything like that (or even complain about balance issues, &c.) are not the people Blizzard cares about. Why do you think they're releasing an MMORPG? MMORPGs are what allowed the commonplace computer idiot to play games and feel like they're good at them. Then they get sucked in and waste even more money.

Warcraft III is NOT COMPLEX. Why would Blizzard even attempt to make it more complex, when they know that complexity is not what's going to make them money? Do you think as many people buy Steel Panthers? Most of the people who buy the game only play single-player. That's what Blizzard designed the game for. Do you think they want to waste money hosting free online services? (Read: Yet another reason why they are making an MMORPG).

This being said, claiming that The Frozen Throne is more complex than Brood War are unfounded. Occam's Razor... Blizzard is a company. They want to make money. More money is spent on simple games than complex ones.

The mechanics behind the game also prove that point.

When Warcraft III was released, a high level player could win just using heros. Now, of course, changes have been put in place to stop this, but the game is still entirely based on heros. Move hero back when he's getting damaged, cast hero spell, &c. Do you know why the Beastmaster is still so abusive? Because they didn't do anything to fix it. Do you know why? "Bears need to be scary." If you can go 127-0 using the same abusive strategy, there's something wrong with the game. The innate flaw in the game is the heros. You can't balance a game so ridiculously diverse as TFT (due to heros and Blizzard's stupidity), whereas BW has become far more balanced since its release. There are only three valid strategies for winning at a high level of TFT, and one of those is only valid if the Undead player is at a far superior skill level to his opponent. The other only works in certain cases where the opponent is a short distance away.

TFT = Build hero, learn how to move hero back when he's under attack, learn how to focus fire. The game is far more forgiving with errors. Even an idiot can have a good start, and even an idiot can have a good economy. The units have far more HP and die far slower. You can make huge mistakes and still win. You get random items that can sometimes dictate who wins and who loses. Blizzard refuses to balance the game.

BW = You must play flawlessly to beat people of the same skill level. Errors are not easily forgiven. Units have lower HP and die much quicker. Gameplay is faster. Superior balancing.

---

So which game is better? It depends on your opinion.
Which game takes more skill to play? Definitely BW, without a doubt. If you disagree, then you're not looking at any facts whatsoever.

Warcraft III isn't even as micro-intensive as BW. All you do is move units that are getting damaged back. It promotes not attacking your opponent. The viable quantity of strategies are far lower than those of Brood War.

On February 09 2004 17:49 Orlandu wrote:
I'm not gonna read all of stimey's post, but I find it extremely interesting that he he makes such a point of Blizzard intending for War3 to be without such high skill level and more of a "fun" game. Why do I find that interesting? Because Blizzard did the EXACT same thing with Brood War. Look at where it's at now? It's up to the players to make a game competitive, not the designer. They may play a role, but if it were all up to Blizzard, you wouldn't have damn near the BW you have today.

Nobody knows shit about War3 right now just as nobody knew shit about BW when it was at the age War3 is now. It's rediculous for anyone to pretend they know anything about the game other than what has worked for them via experience.

The logic accompanying many of the posts here isn't quite adding up, and the main reason I can see for that, is quite frankly, there's only been about 4 or 5 people including myself in this thread who have played War3 enough to have any idea of what it's all about. The only thing you people should be concerned with, is how to play BW and get the skill or entertainment you desire. It's obvious many of you don't care about War3, yet so many of you comment on it as if you know all about it. Highly unlikely with the contempt many of you hold for it.

As far as Insomnia's comments go, I think we've established all the possibilities of the scenario, and with that said, this thread no longer serves it's original purpose. If the rest of you wanna argue War3, go play the game for a couple months and make a new thread. It's tiresome to even read this anymore.

On February 09 2004 18:12 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
Orlandu - Warcraft III was specifically made to address concerns over Brood War being too hard to play competitively for the average weekend gamer. Saying that it wasn't made for this purpose is debating fact. E-Mail the design team and ask who the game was aimed at. With the success of games like Diablo II, Blizzard wanted to include a larger audience. If they made the game to cater for people who read this board, they wouldn't have bothered releasing it until it was patched to perfection, obviously.

You clearly don't know anything about the game whatsoever, as I was not belittling W3 in any way, shape or form. In fact, I'd rather play it than BW. The fact of the matter is, it is simplified. Any top player agrees with my perspective. So does the Blizzard staff.

You obviously didn't read my post (are you capable of reading a post? Perhaps you should before attempting to make patently false claims regarding everything). As for the game being made competitive by the players - Where did I talk about it? Any game can be competitive. I said that W3 was intended for the casual gamer, those gamers who felt that it was "too hard" to be "good" at BW. If you disagree, you are wrong, because Blizzard has clearly stated their intentions numerous times.

On May 07 2004 22:33 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
hey orlandu. remmer the last time we had this chat? you never answered for some reason. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=12&topic_id=10906

On May 07 2004 22:33 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
hey orlandu. remmer the last time we had this chat? you never answered for some reason. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=12&topic_id=10906

On May 07 2004 23:18 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:

"Brood War was not mean to be the game that made pro-gaming what it is. But it was. Blizzard's intentions mean very little in how the game evolves." <-- blizzard keeps making giant patches. war3 is dominated far more by blizz than any other game. the whole game is blizzard trying to evolve it. huge major patches more major than any bw patch ever was. u cant say war3 has currently evolved out of blizz hands when those kinds of patches are a regular thing.

On May 08 2004 08:06 Chibi[OWNS] wrote:


well, what do the high level / ex-sc high level players think about how it compares to sc? i swear i saw at least one interview when they claim it's annoyingly inferior. i mean, if there's little margin between each of the top players (someone said this earlier), surely even the tiniest bit of luck (with items) is going to swing the game vastly in one direction?

On May 07 2004 01:14 SpuniasauR wrote:
by the way maybe a pg player can tell me this, are the [pG] players in warcraft (aether, hunter, etched) old starcraft players? or is it even the same clan? i been wondering this for a while but i cant be sure if its just noobs taking the l337 tag [pG] hahaha

On May 08 2004 16:00 SunShine wrote:
rage they are saying its an eze game because they only played it when the game just started and they have no idea how the skill level is now and how hard it is to become their level

On May 08 2004 14:41 jacen wrote:


[pG] has a full squad of war3 players. most of them played bw b4, but not very successful. but [pG]Fisheye (wcg2003 2nd in bw) switched to war3(hes playing night elves) to compete at the Giga-Liga (http://liga.giga.de/). its a leage formed by a german tv channel (www.giga.de) where he won the last years broodwar tourney. but this year the removed broodwar from the top games (which feature cash prices) and now he can only win money by playing war3.

his last time on tv was wednesday, where he played a live game vs ocrana.d-link.take (human) which he won.
the finals of the league are on the 22nd of may. so we will see if he can make the jump from bw to war3 in 6 months (last giga.liga was in autumn)

On June 01 2004 19:37 SoleSteeler wrote:
yeah... poor showtime, he really dominated in the ROC beta, early ROC retail... dominated the ladder only though =[ i don't think he's accomplished anything in any leagues.. has he?

On June 01 2004 19:58 Make7UpYours wrote:
Showtime won the third OGN War3 league which also happened to be the last ROC OGN league. He placed third in the first OGN WC3 league and I think he made top 4 for the second one too. Maybe I'm being hard on him and he might just be slumping but he really hasn't been playing up to his former level in TFT.

Check[Frienz] is a MUCH stronger candidate for best NE player right now. The guy has won two OGN leagues in a row, has made numerous all-kills in the team leagues, and if he's not winning a tourney he is almost always placing near the top.

On June 01 2004 11:31 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I think war 3 is a cool game in a way.. And when I read about it, and read what people say about it - I really feel as if it should be fun. Then I go and play a 2:2 with wax or something, everything is going fine - some games can be really fun when you just constantly micro basic units etc.. Can be quite intense.

Then as the game goes on something happens..
The screen is filled with hundreds of glowing lights, huge, heavily animated flying units and auras.. That's when the game fails in my opinion.. Maybe it's just me playing on asia and thus having a huge lag but.. In my experience it's almost impossible to micro in those situations - same held true when I played it at a PC cafe with a friend - we played on europe server too.

I don't know.. There is something which I can't really put my finger on.

Another major gripe for me is the lack of units akin to the vulture, mutalisk and speed shuttle as well as dropship.. I once played an absolutely AWESOME island 2:2 with a friend. I would do a goblin zeppelin rush and that was so much fun! We fought and fought and fought, constantly catapult harassing, goblin zeppelin popping units, expanding etcetc.. In the end we lost the final battle over the last gold mine, a really cool game in my opinion!

Islands in war 3, or TFT I should say.. Now that is fun! I haven't played a whole lot of them but the few games I had were very fun!

Maybe it was just bad opponents but the games were cool, much more similiar to BW.

Back to the issue of spells, my computer is in no way bad - 1.8ghz, 500 MB ram, not the best graphic card (I'm gonna put in a better one and see if it will speed things up).. But still, spells and such slows the game down soo much, suddenly I'll find myself without a single unit since during the latest colour explosion I couldn't move my units out of the 23092039 area of effect spells. Maybe due to being under the effect of slow, maybe because I suck but whatever.. I don't like all the flashy spells! I think spells are cool but not like that. Also.. Spell casters not being able to attack = would be cooler I think. Now I don't know how a top level game really looks like, the ones I have seen had kinda well rounded armies yeah.. But I dunno, it would be cooler I think.

Rant over :D

On June 01 2004 19:58 Make7UpYours wrote:
Showtime won the third OGN War3 league which also happened to be the last ROC OGN league. He placed third in the first OGN WC3 league and I think he made top 4 for the second one too. Maybe I'm being hard on him and he might just be slumping but he really hasn't been playing up to his former level in TFT.

Check[Frienz] is a MUCH stronger candidate for best NE player right now. The guy has won two OGN leagues in a row, has made numerous all-kills in the team leagues, and if he's not winning a tourney he is almost always placing near the top.

On June 02 2004 09:21 mdb wrote:
Insomnia,Heman,Madfrog and all former SC gosu wannnabes ,who now own at WC3, are the living proofs that WC3 requires less skill than SC

On June 02 2004 09:21 mdb wrote:
Insomnia,Heman,Madfrog and all former SC gosu wannnabes ,who now own at WC3, are the living proofs that WC3 requires less skill than SC

On June 02 2004 09:41 SoleSteeler wrote:


well, Insomnia/Madfrog were actually some of the best players (in Europe i'd say? no?) in their time.. just because someone stops playing the game and moves on doesn't really make them 'gosu wannabes'?

On June 02 2004 09:36 FreeZEternal wrote:
Me and FrozenArbiter gosu 2vs2 WC3 LOL -_-;;;

On June 01 2004 11:09 dy1an wrote:
funny thing is that 2 top wc3 players, insomnia (wcg champion) and grubby (cxg champion probably best orc player) actually say that wc3 is better then sc.
while they are both old starcraft players -_-;
it's all a matter of taste imo

On June 02 2004 12:47 SoleSteeler wrote:
i like both, i actually like playing TFT more, but enjoy watching BW more

On June 02 2004 19:06 requiem wrote:
hi, this site really hates war3 doesn't it?
i think it's a pretty good game, the micro gets pretty complex in larger battles. and it's a young game so the best, coolest, most complex strategies have not even been explored/discovered yet. i mean games can evolve you know? i remember a time of mass zealot rush, or whatever, and then there was that patch with the 6 or 9 pool (i forgot) --> 1 hat lurker rush and terrans were clueless.

but yeah, in general, i think war3 is a pretty cool game

mTw-Aether

On June 02 2004 12:24 Liquid`Spy wrote:
Actually Frozen Throne is a pretty good game. I don't get why people have to bash it all the time, should blizzard have made a copy of starcraft but then a little better and in medieval style? no. They made a completely different game with four pretty well balanced races that gives room for enough competition. I don't see what's so wrong about it :/

Isn't it possible to like BW ánd TFT? I doubt anyone here saying war3 sux has ever tried playing the expansion set online seriously.

On June 03 2004 18:44 requiem wrote:
yeah you owned me by killing my burrows and then towering me ^^

On June 03 2004 20:27 SoleSteeler wrote:


lol, such bs i did vs you..... everyone hated me so much for winning that tourny =[

such bad manner when faluzure beat me next day and gave the tourny title to you omg =[

On June 03 2004 20:46 SoleSteeler wrote:
heh, there was this tournament hosted by Afterburn called king of the hill, which was apparently a war2 kali tournament which was popular, anyways i signed up thought what the hell.. but i somehow managed to fight my way to the finals, where i fought aether and somehow cheesed him for the win 3-2 =/

it went something like...

he beat me hu vs rand NE
i beat him hu vs rand orc (burrow rush)
he beat me hu vs rand orc
i beat him hu vs rand orc
i beat him hu vs ne (tower rush)

=/

i got very lucky..

then the way the tourny worked is someone is the champion and people can challenge you, fal challenged me, he beat me 3-1