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On July 05 2010 23:48 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:I'm sure you'll find someone who says yes somewhere.
When you find a person who both liberals and conservatives agree is a "centrist", then please let me know... I've yet to find one.
Everyone leans in one direction or the other, even if it's only slightly.
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On July 05 2010 23:48 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 23:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On July 05 2010 23:39 HnR)hT wrote: Of course, you could argue that the seeds of socialism are contained in the Bible, and that many traditional societies have been "socialistic." But material inequality is not sufficient for the development of socialist ideas. Yet the people who follow said Bible are among some of the most conservative in the world. I don't understand the phrase "the most conservative in the world," since the meaning of conservatism depends on the society you are talking about. For example, in the Soviet Union during the Gorbachev era, hardcore Communists were called "conservative." If you mean they adhere to a particular ideology which we in the West call "conservatism," then as a matter of empicrical statement of fact I cannot agree... Yes you're right. This thread isn't going to go anywhere since the OP made a mistake by suggesting that Liberal and Conservative views are directly opposed to each other. That simply isn't the case.
In the UK we have a coalition of Conservatives and Liberals working together in government. Furthermore, the "Liberal Party of Australia" claims to adhere to conservatism.
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anonymity is a precursor to anarchy
yes i pulled that out of my ass
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United States5162 Posts
I'm pretty close to a centrist, though I'm sure I would be called liberal by conservatives and conservative by liberals. That is, I'm pro-choice, pro-gun rights, states' rights, equal rights, limited federal government, fiscal responsibility, against Iraq, for Afghanistan, against affirmative action(reverse racism), and completely against handouts. I can truthfully say I have views from all over the place.
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On July 05 2010 23:34 Tyraz wrote:
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@angelicfolly: Just because something is legal or illegal doesn't make it morally right or wrong. And just because someone has more money doesn't mean they need more urgent medical attention.
You are not getting this.
wouldn't the argument being that it is immoral to break laws? But moral to break unjust laws? What a thought to think about.
Actually because somebody has more money that be the very definition of being able to offered what they want.They have the money, and they can go where they want, saying somehow they are wrong because of that is morally wrong because you don't even know the circumstance behind having that money.
IT would be better offered that everyone has a means to get what they need in terms of medical care, that CAN WORK, not a idealist viewpoint.
Then again I was never arguing from the viewpoint, so I don't know why you tried to write that into what I was saying.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 05 2010 23:53 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 23:48 HnR)hT wrote:On July 05 2010 23:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On July 05 2010 23:39 HnR)hT wrote: Of course, you could argue that the seeds of socialism are contained in the Bible, and that many traditional societies have been "socialistic." But material inequality is not sufficient for the development of socialist ideas. Yet the people who follow said Bible are among some of the most conservative in the world. I don't understand the phrase "the most conservative in the world," since the meaning of conservatism depends on the society you are talking about. For example, in the Soviet Union during the Gorbachev era, hardcore Communists were called "conservative." If you mean they adhere to a particular ideology which we in the West call "conservatism," then as a matter of empicrical statement of fact I cannot agree... Yes you're right. This thread isn't going to go anywhere since the OP made a mistake by suggesting that Liberal and Conservative views are directly opposed to each other. That simply isn't the case. In the UK we have a coalition of Conservatives and Liberals working together in government. Furthermore, the "Liberal Party of Australia" claims to adhere to conservatism. It makes it even worse when you capitalize them like that, because liberal and Liberal, and conservative and Conservative are different things. Americans bastardized the terms first, and unfortunately it caught on so most people don't know what they're actually saying.
I'm convinced that 99% of the internet, TL included, doesn't know the difference.
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On July 05 2010 23:40 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 23:19 Mothxal wrote: voting Republican has little to do voting with free market. In fact, free market is just a PR phrase that is virtually meaningless.
Free market is basically having no rules and no taxes, increasing taxes for things like health care takes you further away from having a free market economy. Of course in many ways having taxes for things like health care is wanted which is why most of the developed world does it that way, a totally free market is no more wanted than a communistic one. In the same way regulations to prevent foul play are also needed etc. Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 23:19 Mothxal wrote: this just says that (according to you) the current way economics and such are organized is more like rightwing thought, not leftwing thought. That has nothing to do with the merits, and I don't see how someone is an idealist for having a different view than the current status quo. I didn't say that it is bad to be an idealist, nor that it is good to be a realist. What I mean by "realist" by the way are those who wants to make it better for most since you sacrifice much growth to get everyone with you while "idealist" are those who wants to make it better for everyone since they don't think that anyone should be left behind. Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 23:19 Mothxal wrote: is also nonsensical, most people vote on cultural (or psychological, say, a hateful person might always vote for rightwing populism) issues, not economic. Why people vote and what the vote actually means are two different things. The discussions are almost solely about where the states money should come from and how it should be spent, and that is the main difference between the parties. Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 23:19 Mothxal wrote: of course people have those phases, but leftwing political parties aren't at all based on that. Maybe more young people vote leftwing, but that has nothing to do with the merits. That was my opinion, your opinion might be different. Welcome to politics. Also trying too hard to reach any ideal is bad, which is why it is called "trying too hard", as such I wasn't wrong with my statement anyway. You might argue that you can't try to hard, but that is another issue.
Either way, basically everything you've written in this thread is incredibly unclear, since you seem to invent categories and trends and such as you type, and never properly define something. Case in point, free market. A market without rules and taxes doesn't exist, has never existed, nobody wants it (including actual rightwing policy prescriptions), and it won't work. If you use free market with that (inane) definition, you can't take it seriously. The term has mostly been used as rightwing propoganda, so you should be careful to simply adopt it in your line of thinking.
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Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising.
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On July 05 2010 23:24 JinMaikeul wrote: I think the world has a liberal bias... The reason for this is that liberal policy tends to benefit the poor at the expense of the wealthy and there are a lot more poor people in this world than there are wealthy people. Very interesting viewpoint. I have studied the works of people like Napoleon Hill who have studied hundreds of rich people. Not a single one of them came out of poverty by being given money. Wallace D. Wattles actually points out that charity creates more poverty and does absolutely no good in the long term. Instead, he suggests the poor should be taught how to accumulate wealth by studying rich people.
Where are you getting your information?
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United States22883 Posts
On July 06 2010 00:09 Mothxal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 23:40 Klockan3 wrote:On July 05 2010 23:19 Mothxal wrote: voting Republican has little to do voting with free market. In fact, free market is just a PR phrase that is virtually meaningless.
Free market is basically having no rules and no taxes, increasing taxes for things like health care takes you further away from having a free market economy. Of course in many ways having taxes for things like health care is wanted which is why most of the developed world does it that way, a totally free market is no more wanted than a communistic one. In the same way regulations to prevent foul play are also needed etc. On July 05 2010 23:19 Mothxal wrote: this just says that (according to you) the current way economics and such are organized is more like rightwing thought, not leftwing thought. That has nothing to do with the merits, and I don't see how someone is an idealist for having a different view than the current status quo. I didn't say that it is bad to be an idealist, nor that it is good to be a realist. What I mean by "realist" by the way are those who wants to make it better for most since you sacrifice much growth to get everyone with you while "idealist" are those who wants to make it better for everyone since they don't think that anyone should be left behind. On July 05 2010 23:19 Mothxal wrote: is also nonsensical, most people vote on cultural (or psychological, say, a hateful person might always vote for rightwing populism) issues, not economic. Why people vote and what the vote actually means are two different things. The discussions are almost solely about where the states money should come from and how it should be spent, and that is the main difference between the parties. On July 05 2010 23:19 Mothxal wrote: of course people have those phases, but leftwing political parties aren't at all based on that. Maybe more young people vote leftwing, but that has nothing to do with the merits. That was my opinion, your opinion might be different. Welcome to politics. Also trying too hard to reach any ideal is bad, which is why it is called "trying too hard", as such I wasn't wrong with my statement anyway. You might argue that you can't try to hard, but that is another issue. Either way, basically everything you've written in this thread is incredibly unclear, since you seem to invent categories and trends and such as you type, and never properly define something. Case in point, free market. A market without rules and taxes doesn't exist, has never existed, nobody wants it (including actual rightwing policy prescriptions), and it won't work. If you use free market with that (inane) definition, you can't take it seriously. The term has mostly been used as rightwing propoganda, so you should be careful to simply adopt it in your line of thinking. Agree. Changing the term 'realist' is a problem too.
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On July 06 2010 00:07 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 23:53 Klive5ive wrote:On July 05 2010 23:48 HnR)hT wrote:On July 05 2010 23:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On July 05 2010 23:39 HnR)hT wrote: Of course, you could argue that the seeds of socialism are contained in the Bible, and that many traditional societies have been "socialistic." But material inequality is not sufficient for the development of socialist ideas. Yet the people who follow said Bible are among some of the most conservative in the world. I don't understand the phrase "the most conservative in the world," since the meaning of conservatism depends on the society you are talking about. For example, in the Soviet Union during the Gorbachev era, hardcore Communists were called "conservative." If you mean they adhere to a particular ideology which we in the West call "conservatism," then as a matter of empicrical statement of fact I cannot agree... Yes you're right. This thread isn't going to go anywhere since the OP made a mistake by suggesting that Liberal and Conservative views are directly opposed to each other. That simply isn't the case. In the UK we have a coalition of Conservatives and Liberals working together in government. Furthermore, the "Liberal Party of Australia" claims to adhere to conservatism. It makes it even worse when you capitalize them like that, because liberal and Liberal, and conservative and Conservative are different things. I'm convinced that 99% of the internet, TL included, doesn't know the difference, however.
When I look at US politics, its really weird, because theres only 2 sides, but the right goes out of their way to look like a bunch of stupid rednecks making politics with the bible, while the left goes out of their way to look like they are actually the middle of everything and a place everyone would like to be, except most people will see it for what it really is, a bunch of cowards making the politics of pleasing everyone and leaving no one happy.
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On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. Didn't see any credible sources backing up your claims. Please give me the sources you used to derive those claims.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 06 2010 00:12 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 00:07 Jibba wrote:On July 05 2010 23:53 Klive5ive wrote:On July 05 2010 23:48 HnR)hT wrote:On July 05 2010 23:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On July 05 2010 23:39 HnR)hT wrote: Of course, you could argue that the seeds of socialism are contained in the Bible, and that many traditional societies have been "socialistic." But material inequality is not sufficient for the development of socialist ideas. Yet the people who follow said Bible are among some of the most conservative in the world. I don't understand the phrase "the most conservative in the world," since the meaning of conservatism depends on the society you are talking about. For example, in the Soviet Union during the Gorbachev era, hardcore Communists were called "conservative." If you mean they adhere to a particular ideology which we in the West call "conservatism," then as a matter of empicrical statement of fact I cannot agree... Yes you're right. This thread isn't going to go anywhere since the OP made a mistake by suggesting that Liberal and Conservative views are directly opposed to each other. That simply isn't the case. In the UK we have a coalition of Conservatives and Liberals working together in government. Furthermore, the "Liberal Party of Australia" claims to adhere to conservatism. It makes it even worse when you capitalize them like that, because liberal and Liberal, and conservative and Conservative are different things. I'm convinced that 99% of the internet, TL included, doesn't know the difference, however. When I look at US politics, its really weird, because theres only 2 sides, but the right goes out of their way to look like a bunch of stupid rednecks making politics with the bible, while the left goes out of their way to look like they are actually the middle of everything and a place everyone would like to be, except most people will see it for what it really is, a bunch of cowards making the politics of pleasing everyone and leaving no one happy. Politics is a lot more than about what people say. I wish more people realized it. The institutional forces are often much more important than anything else. Most things are much more of secular, power calculations than you'd realize from just watching the news.
Perhaps it's one of the side effects of politics being so interesting. The number of people willing to try to analyze it far outweigh the number of people who actually capable of analyzing it. The same usually doesn't happen for physics or economics (although watching the statistics "debates" on TL is pretty amusing.)
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Wrote a big thing on immigration, but I decided this isn't the time or place for it. Let's stick to the topic...
On July 06 2010 00:11 tryummm wrote: Very interesting viewpoint. I have studied the works of people like Napoleon Hill who have studied hundreds of rich people. Not a single one of them came out of poverty by being given money. Wallace D. Wattles actually points out that charity creates more poverty and does absolutely no good in the long term. Instead, he suggests the poor should be taught how to accumulate wealth by studying rich people.
Where are you getting your information?
Personally, I completely agree with you. Charity does nothing to benefit the poor in the long term. I suppose my point was that lower income people perceive a benefit from liberal policies because in the short term, they do get perks such as tax breaks, affirmative action, etc. The masses generally do not think long term or even for the betterment of society. For the most part, the masses are worried about what their lives are going to be like when they wake up tomorrow and what their paycheck will look like. This is why politics is such a joke and real issues and solutions almost never get touched on the campaign trail.
Personally I feel like if people were able to make the connections between things like taxes and social services, you'd see a lot less die-hard liberals out there acting like they know so much about what would be good for society and what would work and a lot more people saying "I really don't have a fucking clue..."
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On July 06 2010 00:19 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 00:12 D10 wrote:On July 06 2010 00:07 Jibba wrote:On July 05 2010 23:53 Klive5ive wrote:On July 05 2010 23:48 HnR)hT wrote:On July 05 2010 23:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On July 05 2010 23:39 HnR)hT wrote: Of course, you could argue that the seeds of socialism are contained in the Bible, and that many traditional societies have been "socialistic." But material inequality is not sufficient for the development of socialist ideas. Yet the people who follow said Bible are among some of the most conservative in the world. I don't understand the phrase "the most conservative in the world," since the meaning of conservatism depends on the society you are talking about. For example, in the Soviet Union during the Gorbachev era, hardcore Communists were called "conservative." If you mean they adhere to a particular ideology which we in the West call "conservatism," then as a matter of empicrical statement of fact I cannot agree... Yes you're right. This thread isn't going to go anywhere since the OP made a mistake by suggesting that Liberal and Conservative views are directly opposed to each other. That simply isn't the case. In the UK we have a coalition of Conservatives and Liberals working together in government. Furthermore, the "Liberal Party of Australia" claims to adhere to conservatism. It makes it even worse when you capitalize them like that, because liberal and Liberal, and conservative and Conservative are different things. I'm convinced that 99% of the internet, TL included, doesn't know the difference, however. When I look at US politics, its really weird, because theres only 2 sides, but the right goes out of their way to look like a bunch of stupid rednecks making politics with the bible, while the left goes out of their way to look like they are actually the middle of everything and a place everyone would like to be, except most people will see it for what it really is, a bunch of cowards making the politics of pleasing everyone and leaving no one happy. Politics is a lot more than about what people say. I wish more people realized it. The institutional forces are often much more important than anything else. Most things are much more of secular, power calculations than you'd realize from just watching the news.
What I find weird about US is that there isn't a true "liberal" party. Let me elaborate: On one side, Republican party advocates less intervention on economics, but supports war and tries to make laws against drugs, prostitution, homosexual unions and gambling. On the other hand, Democrats advocate for non-intervention on "moral issues" but would identify more with left wing in terms of economical intervention. All of the above in general terms, I understand there are exceptions.
In my opinion, as I like to consider myself, a true liberal advocates for both a free market with a small government that promotes competition on market failures, and a government that doesnt interfere with what people do with their lives, as long as they don't harm others.
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What I don't get is what, at least in Canada/US, being pro-choice, pro-gay rights, relaxed drug laws, etc. have to do with believing in increased gov't spending. And vice versa.
I just don't get how "you have to pay for yourself if you are sick/injured/etc." got matched up with "but you're not allowed to do these things with your body". Shouldn't conservatives be pro-prostitution? pro-drug? pro-personal freedom that they spout so ferociously?
An how does belief in the free market, that one should be the best or at least strive to be, and that others should do the same, make one so opposed to scientific progress? [HnR)hT had a pretty neat point about this though]
How did a religion about a guy who told everyone to help the poor, sick, needy etc. become the face of the opposition to social programs?
I guess I'm just trying to figure out why the political spectrum seems to have its economic and social stances matched poorly, as far as I can tell.
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On July 06 2010 00:13 tryummm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. Didn't see any credible sources backing up your claims. Please give me the sources you used to derive those claims. I don't have a source saying that, it would probably be a biased one if I did. (Not that I'm not biased, I encourage you to look into it though)
Look at the prominent scientists, engineers, doctors and businessmen - the conservative/liberal ratio plummets when you reach a high level of education. As an example, Louisiana is very red for instance - it's packed with people who hate "socialism" but they get the most government help to pull through.
By no means is my little research proof of anything but there's an obvious, apparent trend. On the other hand, a conservative person may not view intelligence the way I see it. I value science and education. Somehow it seems that many conservative people don't value science as much as they should and that's very sad. In fact the lack of interest for science is pretty much a conservative trademark in the US. Very big issue.
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
"Of course it's completely unrealistic and nigh impossible to uproot and deport the millions of illegal immigrants already in this country, but...."
Wait, why is it unrealistic? It's been done many, many times before, most famously (or infamously) by the German and the Russians during the war. Even Americans under Eisenhower could do it (search "operation wetback"). But now it is suddenly unrealistic?
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What does the OP think is liberal? The US is probably the most Conservative 1st world nations, so the vast majority of responses from Europe will be what the US considers liberal. Add to that ~half of the US is liberal by the US's standards and you get why it seems conservatives are always in the minority online.
"That and reality has a well-known liberal bias." (Think that is the quote.)
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