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On July 05 2010 19:19 ActualSteve wrote: (I saw the thread from 2008; new administration, different players on the web ... this topic should be brought up to date.)
Seems like every time I watch a YouTube video about politics, I read the comments. Almost every time I read the comments, I see the conservative standpoint in the minority. Almost every time said standpoint is stated, 10+ people with opposing viewpoints jump at the opportunity of ridiculing the right.
Possible questions for you:: Do you think the internet has a liberal bias? Why? What implications does this have for our future? (Unnecessary, but I'll include it: Are TL users generally liberal?)
1. Please don't go Aegrean and mind fuck us all.
2. Say something insightful.
I'm HOPING someone who is conservative makes a stand here and everyone is mature about it. I'm also hoping that this can pass as a thread and not necessarily a blog. Apologize in advance if I'm mistaken... it's been awhile.
Some things to think about:
It's possible that the reason why you see such a prevailing liberal opinion is for other factors than that the internet is mainly liberal. It could be that conservatives just don't write as much comments as liberals; they don't visit the same web pages that you do maybe; or maybe conservatives use the internet to a lesser degree.
Implications for the future: let's say you're correct and the internet is "liberal." Let's take it a step further and say that most of these commentators are below 30 years old. I don't have any studies available to back me up, but I think it's rather common knowledge that a person tends to be more liberal when they are younger and incline more to the right as they age... Maybe in the future there will be a more "conservative" internet... doubt it thought ^_^
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On July 06 2010 01:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 01:19 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:09 cemlions wrote:On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. That is a ridiculous quote. First of all how do you define smart people. Those who are well educated, succesfull financially, or maybe world recognition? Second of all what are you trying to accomplish with what you wrote, that the so called smart people agreeing with something makes it true, if so that liberalism is true because "smart people are liberal". I think such a tendency to look to "smart people " for guidance based on their merits, and accomplishments, rather than being analytical of the rational or viewpoint they advocate lends itself to a)not relying on critical thinking b)complete idiocy as such 1) A ridiculous quote? I wrote it. Seriously. 2) I use the very "smart" people as a benchmark here. Successful people who have used their brains in order to make discoveries or to become exceptionally talented in their fields. 3) I accomplish nothing. If you cared to make a research at all you would see that educated people heavily lean liberal. Up to you to explain why... It doesn't "make it true". Thinking liberalism or conservatism can be "true" is truly retarded. I don't base what I think on "what smart people think" but I think it would be ridiculous not to consider it. Stephen Hawking is a ridiculously good physicist. If he says something about politics, I'll put my mind to it even if it's conservative. FACT IS. It isn't... =( Even if you had some sort of study to prove this point, it completely ignores the question of whether their political stance is a result of their education or if it is a result of other factors such as some sort of bias in the academic community on a social level. Most of Hollywood is also liberal, but most people wouldn't attribute that to anything other than the fact that it's popular to be liberal there and not being liberal will often screw you out of opportunities. Correlation doesn't prove causation, it's true - I'm just posing the problem, I believe I've said that three freaking times. It doesn't ignore the question. It doesn't have an answer. I'll use the word "educated" instead of "smart" because it's more realistic (but I'm also incline to believe that smart people are more likely to get educated =P). So why are educated people largely liberal? I don't know.
An instance of a smart person who leans to the left but WITH *BIG*, healthy nuances is Sam Harris. This is old but I feel that it's extremely relevant today. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/
I strongly believe that Sam Harris's world view is more healthy than that of ANY conservative you can find. Read it. PS: Sam Harris is very educated =P
PS: Ben Stein... that idiot somehow got this thread's banner, yuck.
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On July 06 2010 01:33 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 01:28 JinMaikeul wrote:On July 06 2010 01:19 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:09 cemlions wrote:On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. That is a ridiculous quote. First of all how do you define smart people. Those who are well educated, succesfull financially, or maybe world recognition? Second of all what are you trying to accomplish with what you wrote, that the so called smart people agreeing with something makes it true, if so that liberalism is true because "smart people are liberal". I think such a tendency to look to "smart people " for guidance based on their merits, and accomplishments, rather than being analytical of the rational or viewpoint they advocate lends itself to a)not relying on critical thinking b)complete idiocy as such 1) A ridiculous quote? I wrote it. Seriously. 2) I use the very "smart" people as a benchmark here. Successful people who have used their brains in order to make discoveries or to become exceptionally talented in their fields. 3) I accomplish nothing. If you cared to make a research at all you would see that educated people heavily lean liberal. Up to you to explain why... It doesn't "make it true". Thinking liberalism or conservatism can be "true" is truly retarded. I don't base what I think on "what smart people think" but I think it would be ridiculous not to consider it. Stephen Hawking is a ridiculously good physicist. If he says something about politics, I'll put my mind to it even if it's conservative. FACT IS. It isn't... =( Even if you had some sort of study to prove this point, it completely ignores the question of whether their political stance is a result of their education or if it is a result of other factors such as some sort of bias in the academic community on a social level. Most of Hollywood is also liberal, but most people wouldn't attribute that to anything other than the fact that it's popular to be liberal there and not being liberal will often screw you out of opportunities. Correlation doesn't prove causation, it's true - I'm just posing the problem, I believe I've said that three freaking times. It doesn't ignore the question. It doesn't have an answer. I'll use the word "educated" instead of "smart" because it's more realistic (but I'm also incline to believe that smart people are more likely to get educated =P). So why are educated people largely liberal? I don't know. An instance of a smart person who leans to the left but WITH *BIG*, healthy nuances is Sam Harris. This is old but I feel that it's extremely relevant today. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/I strongly believe that Sam Harris's world view is more healthy than that of ANY conservative you can find. Read it. PS: Sam Harris is very educated =P PS: Ben Stein... that idiot somehow got this thread's banner, yuck.
I actually found that read pretty interesting and sadly true.
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On July 06 2010 01:33 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 01:28 JinMaikeul wrote:On July 06 2010 01:19 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:09 cemlions wrote:On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. That is a ridiculous quote. First of all how do you define smart people. Those who are well educated, succesfull financially, or maybe world recognition? Second of all what are you trying to accomplish with what you wrote, that the so called smart people agreeing with something makes it true, if so that liberalism is true because "smart people are liberal". I think such a tendency to look to "smart people " for guidance based on their merits, and accomplishments, rather than being analytical of the rational or viewpoint they advocate lends itself to a)not relying on critical thinking b)complete idiocy as such 1) A ridiculous quote? I wrote it. Seriously. 2) I use the very "smart" people as a benchmark here. Successful people who have used their brains in order to make discoveries or to become exceptionally talented in their fields. 3) I accomplish nothing. If you cared to make a research at all you would see that educated people heavily lean liberal. Up to you to explain why... It doesn't "make it true". Thinking liberalism or conservatism can be "true" is truly retarded. I don't base what I think on "what smart people think" but I think it would be ridiculous not to consider it. Stephen Hawking is a ridiculously good physicist. If he says something about politics, I'll put my mind to it even if it's conservative. FACT IS. It isn't... =( Even if you had some sort of study to prove this point, it completely ignores the question of whether their political stance is a result of their education or if it is a result of other factors such as some sort of bias in the academic community on a social level. Most of Hollywood is also liberal, but most people wouldn't attribute that to anything other than the fact that it's popular to be liberal there and not being liberal will often screw you out of opportunities. Correlation doesn't prove causation, it's true - I'm just posing the problem, I believe I've said that three freaking times. It doesn't ignore the question. It doesn't have an answer. I'll use the word "educated" instead of "smart" because it's more realistic (but I'm also incline to believe that smart people are more likely to get educated =P). So why are educated people largely liberal? I don't know. An instance of a smart person who leans to the left but WITH *BIG*, healthy nuances is Sam Harris. This is old but I feel that it's extremely relevant today. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/I strongly believe that Sam Harris's world view is more healthy than that of ANY conservative you can find. Read it. PS: Sam Harris is very educated =P PS: Ben Stein... that idiot somehow got this thread's banner, yuck. I agree with you about Sam Harris. But trust me, there are a lot of conservatives at his level. You just need to look around more
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 05 2010 19:51 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 19:19 ActualSteve wrote: (I saw the thread from 2008; new administration, different players on the web ... this topic should be brought up to date.)
Seems like every time I watch a YouTube video about politics, I read the comments. Almost every time I read the comments, I see the conservative standpoint in the minority. Almost every time said standpoint is stated, 10+ people with opposing viewpoints jump at the opportunity of ridiculing the right.
Possible questions for you:: Do you think the internet has a liberal bias? Why? What implications does this have for our future? (Unnecessary, but I'll include it: Are TL users generally liberal?)
1. Please don't go Aegrean and mind fuck us all.
2. Say something insightful.
I'm HOPING someone who is conservative makes a stand here and everyone is mature about it. I'm also hoping that this can pass as a thread and not necessarily a blog. Apologize in advance if I'm mistaken... it's been awhile.
Disclaimer: You're going to get about 2 paragraphs into this and think I'm a liberal just taking an opportunity to troll, but I assure you, I am not. Short Answer: The internet artificially selects for a liberally biased population. Long Answer: 1. We can safely assume that people who do not own computers are at the very least significantly less likely to be denizens of this hive of scum and villainy (HA HA, THE INTERNETS) than those people who do own computers. 2. Computers and the Internet are vaguely selective in that most of the reasons one would purchase one, appeal more strongly to those who are more intelligent. Video games are arguably "harder" to enjoy than, say TV is (let alone whatever it is your stereotypical rednecks are doing). 3. Thus, the Internet has already selected for a population that is skewed somewhat above the average as far as intelligence goes. Moreover, the majority of those people who are exceptions to this rule (most of the people who comment on Youtube, for instance) are likely to take the more common viewpoint among their peers, which on the internet is already being liberal. Now, this appears to be me claiming that intelligence correlates positively with "liberal-ness" - and this is true, that is my belief, but only up to a point. To explain this, lets reverse the issue: Liberal positions (using the modern understanding of the term) are, I think, generally characterized by a belief that the end result of conservative policies is unfair, or unjust. Marx rails against the exploitation of the proletariat, the Democrats seek openly to redistribute wealth, they seek to universalize healthcare coverage, and so forth. They are, in essence, trying to help other people. This is, really, quite easy to support, on the face of it. Who doesn't want to help people? Who, really, is going to admit that they're perfectly happy with people dying from a curable illness because they cant afford treatment*? I'm making an assumption here that with increasing intelligence comes increasing empathy, which is tenuous, to be sure - but certainly as intelligence increases the capacity we have for worrying about issues which are not of direct importance to our own well being increases. Now, lets look at the result of, say, arguments against universal health care. It is an unavoidable fact that if you oppose universalized health care you must accept that some people will die when they could, perhaps, have lived with a universal system. This immediately puts conservatives in a fairly sticky position as far as arguments go. It is quite difficult to reconcile this kind of end-result with a concern for society - which is essentially what politics is, an argument over how best to serve society. It takes a great deal of intellectual fortitude to take a long, hard, unbiased look at the arguments for both sides, and moreover it takes an intellect that has passed through the phase of believing every death is a tragedy that should be prevented at all costs. Such an intellect is, I would argue, more likely to side with conservatives than not, but that particular argument has nothing to do with answering your question. People capable of this kind of cold, logical, and prolonged thinking about very inflammatory issues are few and far between. tl;dr: Conservatives are over-represented at the extreme ends of intelligence distributions, while Liberals are over-represented in the middle areas. The internet artificially selects a distribution that is biased away from the lower end of that distribution, thus resulting in an artificially high Liberal-to-Conservative ratio. *Well, I am. Having written that, I could posit another 3 possibilities for the appearance or fact of a liberal bias on the internet, but I think this one is sufficiently likely to degenerate into flames.
Disclaimer: Conservative
I think that most people on the internet are liberal because they are young and ignorant. It is easy to believe in change and helping out our fellow man when the truth is being hidden by a million veils. While I would love to see free health care the cost of this will drive U.S into the ground.
Now I realize that this is an international site and that there are many countries in Europe that have been able to implement some variant of health care and other liberal social programs but with >300 million people it isn't plausible to cover that many people, especially when there are 3x as many U.S citizens as there is in Russia (The largest population in Europe).
You spoke of how their is a correlation between intelligence and your standpoint on government and that is true. At the bottom of the group you have republican rednecks that want to protect their guns and their property (or what have you) and feel that uncle sam is an evil conglomerate (they probably don't know what that means either) that is out to control them. Then you have the average person that looks at Democratic nominees and how they are trying to help the common man (they are smooth talkers, I'll give them that). After those two groups you get to people that aren't ignorant; By that I mean you get to people that can form an opinion that is more than "I heard nancy say she wanted to help my family so I voted for her". From here you have the leaders and true members of the "Tea party" movement and you have upper middle class that actually follow politics.
After these groups you get to people that pay attention to the details. The people that pay attention to the details skew to the conservative favor because they know that at our current rate of spending we will owe china more than our country is worth in 20 years! (plus other hidden truths) Balancing the budget is being hidden behind the sick children that "Can't receive health care" (that's a lie). The reason why I keep bringing up health care in a "Is the internet liberal" thread is because that is the most widely debated American topic in the last year.
+ Show Spoiler +More of a sidenote than part of the actual argument, Getting free health care is not as much of a daunting task as the popular news stations would like you to think it is (especially for children and elders). There is no evil executive letting Aunt betty die of cancer that she could be cured of. Now that being said I think something could and should be done for health care and that isn't a government intrusion into the private sector and it certainly isn't mandatory health care.
What I propose is similar to a tax write off. An easy way to take care of your fellow man AND pay less money to the government (conservatives are having wet dreams about it). Every year about 60% of the American population have to pay some amount of taxes (40% don't have to pay or get money back) but what I propose is having the option to donate to a "Greater Society" charity group ran by independent companies and use the documentation of your charity donations to reduce your taxes by that amount.
Say you made 100,000 a year and paid 12,000 in taxes every april, With this plan you could donate 7,000 to charity and take 8,000 off your taxes (giving a big incentive to give to charity and cutting the governments spending money by upwards of 2/3rds. This is off topic so I am not going to go through all the details I have laid out for this but at 1/3rd of a budget (from april) and shutting down the government programs that aren't needed we can limit the size of government (tbh the only thing our government does right is find ways to botch the constitution) and put all of the charity money to the needy.
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Using YouTube as a political compass will yield these results. Moreover I'd say the internet has a very conservative stance in general (amongst the companies that control it), if we were more liberal about the internet in general than plenty of countries would have the internet as a free, widely available resources. This isn't the case, in fact for those of us in USA and Canada especially our ISPS are increasingly conservative (read: greedy) when it comes to providing service, most if not all implementing some kind of traffic shaping policies.
If you guys want to see what liberal internet looks like - check out Sweden.
Edit: I think some people here have forgotten what the word liberal means....
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"1. Please don't go Aegrean and mind fuck us all."
You make it seem as if he was smarter than everyone else. To be honest, I found the situation to be the total opposite.
To answer the question of the OP, a majority of the internet users in the world are from countries that are much more liberal than the US and thus the rest of the world thinks that the conservatives in the US are wrong in the head. Not that they agree with the US liberals, just that they really don't like the conservatives.
I don't think it has a liberal bias, I think it has an tolerance bias, a compassion bias, and an intellect bias.
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On July 06 2010 01:49 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 01:33 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:28 JinMaikeul wrote:On July 06 2010 01:19 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:09 cemlions wrote:On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. That is a ridiculous quote. First of all how do you define smart people. Those who are well educated, succesfull financially, or maybe world recognition? Second of all what are you trying to accomplish with what you wrote, that the so called smart people agreeing with something makes it true, if so that liberalism is true because "smart people are liberal". I think such a tendency to look to "smart people " for guidance based on their merits, and accomplishments, rather than being analytical of the rational or viewpoint they advocate lends itself to a)not relying on critical thinking b)complete idiocy as such 1) A ridiculous quote? I wrote it. Seriously. 2) I use the very "smart" people as a benchmark here. Successful people who have used their brains in order to make discoveries or to become exceptionally talented in their fields. 3) I accomplish nothing. If you cared to make a research at all you would see that educated people heavily lean liberal. Up to you to explain why... It doesn't "make it true". Thinking liberalism or conservatism can be "true" is truly retarded. I don't base what I think on "what smart people think" but I think it would be ridiculous not to consider it. Stephen Hawking is a ridiculously good physicist. If he says something about politics, I'll put my mind to it even if it's conservative. FACT IS. It isn't... =( Even if you had some sort of study to prove this point, it completely ignores the question of whether their political stance is a result of their education or if it is a result of other factors such as some sort of bias in the academic community on a social level. Most of Hollywood is also liberal, but most people wouldn't attribute that to anything other than the fact that it's popular to be liberal there and not being liberal will often screw you out of opportunities. Correlation doesn't prove causation, it's true - I'm just posing the problem, I believe I've said that three freaking times. It doesn't ignore the question. It doesn't have an answer. I'll use the word "educated" instead of "smart" because it's more realistic (but I'm also incline to believe that smart people are more likely to get educated =P). So why are educated people largely liberal? I don't know. An instance of a smart person who leans to the left but WITH *BIG*, healthy nuances is Sam Harris. This is old but I feel that it's extremely relevant today. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/I strongly believe that Sam Harris's world view is more healthy than that of ANY conservative you can find. Read it. PS: Sam Harris is very educated =P PS: Ben Stein... that idiot somehow got this thread's banner, yuck. I agree with you about Sam Harris. But trust me, there are a lot of conservatives at his level. You just need to look around more  I know there are a lot of conservatives at his level. Just significantly less than there are liberals. And both sides have idiots... My problem is that the right seems to have more idiots =P
Liberals have environmentalist nutjobs and a good amount of conspiracy theorists (though there are some "9/11 truthers" on the right), a bunch of biased news channels.
Conservatives have racists, "fiscal irresponsibility" (a lot more so than liberals btw!!!), people who don't know what socialism means, Texas, people who are fine with the way military is handled and funded, one *very* biased news channel.
PS: I'm just kidding about Texas (sort of)
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On July 06 2010 01:57 Trezeguet23 wrote: I don't think it has a liberal bias, I think it has an tolerance bias, a compassion bias, and an intellect bias.
This.
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I think that what passes for mainstream conservatism in the US is regarded as being '2 goose steps to the right of Ghengis Khan' in the rest of the world.. Consequently with the net being international mainstream conservative opinion in the US is under-represented because the medium represents global as opposed to national trends.
To cite an example.. National health insurance is seen as socialism akin to communism in the US whereas its mainstream in Europe.. (you can go on with areas of policy like Israel, gun ownership abortion laws etc etc)
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On July 06 2010 01:57 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 01:49 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 01:33 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:28 JinMaikeul wrote:On July 06 2010 01:19 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:09 cemlions wrote:On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. That is a ridiculous quote. First of all how do you define smart people. Those who are well educated, succesfull financially, or maybe world recognition? Second of all what are you trying to accomplish with what you wrote, that the so called smart people agreeing with something makes it true, if so that liberalism is true because "smart people are liberal". I think such a tendency to look to "smart people " for guidance based on their merits, and accomplishments, rather than being analytical of the rational or viewpoint they advocate lends itself to a)not relying on critical thinking b)complete idiocy as such 1) A ridiculous quote? I wrote it. Seriously. 2) I use the very "smart" people as a benchmark here. Successful people who have used their brains in order to make discoveries or to become exceptionally talented in their fields. 3) I accomplish nothing. If you cared to make a research at all you would see that educated people heavily lean liberal. Up to you to explain why... It doesn't "make it true". Thinking liberalism or conservatism can be "true" is truly retarded. I don't base what I think on "what smart people think" but I think it would be ridiculous not to consider it. Stephen Hawking is a ridiculously good physicist. If he says something about politics, I'll put my mind to it even if it's conservative. FACT IS. It isn't... =( Even if you had some sort of study to prove this point, it completely ignores the question of whether their political stance is a result of their education or if it is a result of other factors such as some sort of bias in the academic community on a social level. Most of Hollywood is also liberal, but most people wouldn't attribute that to anything other than the fact that it's popular to be liberal there and not being liberal will often screw you out of opportunities. Correlation doesn't prove causation, it's true - I'm just posing the problem, I believe I've said that three freaking times. It doesn't ignore the question. It doesn't have an answer. I'll use the word "educated" instead of "smart" because it's more realistic (but I'm also incline to believe that smart people are more likely to get educated =P). So why are educated people largely liberal? I don't know. An instance of a smart person who leans to the left but WITH *BIG*, healthy nuances is Sam Harris. This is old but I feel that it's extremely relevant today. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/I strongly believe that Sam Harris's world view is more healthy than that of ANY conservative you can find. Read it. PS: Sam Harris is very educated =P PS: Ben Stein... that idiot somehow got this thread's banner, yuck. I agree with you about Sam Harris. But trust me, there are a lot of conservatives at his level. You just need to look around more  I know there are a lot of conservatives at his level. Just significantly less than there are liberals. And both sides have idiots... My problem is that the right seems to have more idiots =P Liberals have environmentalist nutjobs and a good amount of conspiracy theorists (though there are some "9/11 truthers" on the right) Conservatives have racists, "fiscal irresponsibility" (a lot more so than liberals btw!!!), people who don't know what socialism means, Texas, people who are fine with the way military is handled and funded. PS: I'm just kidding about Texas (sort of)
The current democratic congress is fiscally irresponsible, so trying to say its more then liberals is a very moot point, and actually the the contrary of a fiscal Conservatives.
I have seen my fair share of liberal racists, and the current and that comes to mind is planed parenthood.
And in my opinion the left has more idiots then the right. Moot points...
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On July 06 2010 02:00 Captain Calamity wrote: I think that what passes for mainstream conservatism in the US is regarded as being '2 goose steps to the right of Ghengis Khan' in the rest of the world.. Consequently with the net being international mainstream conservative opinion in the US is under-represented because the medium represents global as opposed to national trends.
To cite an example.. National health insurance is seen as socialism akin to communism in the US whereas its mainstream in Europe.. (you can go on with areas of policy like Israel, gun ownership abortion laws etc etc)
Living in Canada we get British media, US media, and Canadian media, and its quite easy to see by watching all three the US media greatly confuses the political landscape defining the 'right' and the 'left' completely different from what other countries would. (Stephen Harper Canada's current Prime Minister is actually considered liberal by the US, he's actually the leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, and is one of our most conservative leaders in the past 20 years)
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On July 06 2010 02:03 angelicfolly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 01:57 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:49 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 01:33 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:28 JinMaikeul wrote:On July 06 2010 01:19 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:09 cemlions wrote:On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. That is a ridiculous quote. First of all how do you define smart people. Those who are well educated, succesfull financially, or maybe world recognition? Second of all what are you trying to accomplish with what you wrote, that the so called smart people agreeing with something makes it true, if so that liberalism is true because "smart people are liberal". I think such a tendency to look to "smart people " for guidance based on their merits, and accomplishments, rather than being analytical of the rational or viewpoint they advocate lends itself to a)not relying on critical thinking b)complete idiocy as such 1) A ridiculous quote? I wrote it. Seriously. 2) I use the very "smart" people as a benchmark here. Successful people who have used their brains in order to make discoveries or to become exceptionally talented in their fields. 3) I accomplish nothing. If you cared to make a research at all you would see that educated people heavily lean liberal. Up to you to explain why... It doesn't "make it true". Thinking liberalism or conservatism can be "true" is truly retarded. I don't base what I think on "what smart people think" but I think it would be ridiculous not to consider it. Stephen Hawking is a ridiculously good physicist. If he says something about politics, I'll put my mind to it even if it's conservative. FACT IS. It isn't... =( Even if you had some sort of study to prove this point, it completely ignores the question of whether their political stance is a result of their education or if it is a result of other factors such as some sort of bias in the academic community on a social level. Most of Hollywood is also liberal, but most people wouldn't attribute that to anything other than the fact that it's popular to be liberal there and not being liberal will often screw you out of opportunities. Correlation doesn't prove causation, it's true - I'm just posing the problem, I believe I've said that three freaking times. It doesn't ignore the question. It doesn't have an answer. I'll use the word "educated" instead of "smart" because it's more realistic (but I'm also incline to believe that smart people are more likely to get educated =P). So why are educated people largely liberal? I don't know. An instance of a smart person who leans to the left but WITH *BIG*, healthy nuances is Sam Harris. This is old but I feel that it's extremely relevant today. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/I strongly believe that Sam Harris's world view is more healthy than that of ANY conservative you can find. Read it. PS: Sam Harris is very educated =P PS: Ben Stein... that idiot somehow got this thread's banner, yuck. I agree with you about Sam Harris. But trust me, there are a lot of conservatives at his level. You just need to look around more  I know there are a lot of conservatives at his level. Just significantly less than there are liberals. And both sides have idiots... My problem is that the right seems to have more idiots =P Liberals have environmentalist nutjobs and a good amount of conspiracy theorists (though there are some "9/11 truthers" on the right) Conservatives have racists, "fiscal irresponsibility" (a lot more so than liberals btw!!!), people who don't know what socialism means, Texas, people who are fine with the way military is handled and funded. PS: I'm just kidding about Texas (sort of) The current democratic congress is fiscally irresponsible, so trying to say its more then liberals is a very moot point, and actually the the contrary of a fiscal Conservatives. I have seen my fair share of liberal racists, and the current and that comes to mind is planed parenthood. And in my opinion the left has more idiots then the right. Moot points... We both think each other's wrong which is quite normal. But I'll say that conservatives are a lot less fiscally responsible =P... And it's quite obvious that the current government's been handed a messed up country but at least he's not lowering taxes like a berserker.
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I never understood people who think ideology has something to do with fiscal responsibility. (maybe honesty, competence ?) When Republicans go on about spending and such that's just code for "giving money to lazy people", which is a cultural/moral issue more than it is economic, and it has nothing to do with the deficit. Managing the deficit is simply balancing spending against income.
@ixi.genocide, you're not the first conservative to worship at the altar of "realpolitik" and think that he's not ruled by ideology, unlike the rest. You'll actually find most of the facts in your post are completely wrong (universal healthcare wouldn't be more expensive, USA : Russia population is 1:2, not 1:3, there is a correlation between IQ and liberalism ) not to mention your invention of "real Tea-Party members", or your ridiculous generalization of why people vote for party X.
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It honestly depends on how you label a conservative. While this is anecdotal entirely I have noticed that there exists very few hardcore conservatives among people in my age group. It seems as if the majority of those I associate with are libertarians and actually vote for the conservative party, which could easily explain why you see many liberal viewpoints online (since our age group are huge internet users). I believe that our generation is prone to more liberal social standards, and the division between conservative and liberal is more between fiscal policy.
Personally I am quite liberal when it comes to social issues, but very conservative when it comes to my views on government spending.
Keep in mind in this post I am using the terms conservative and liberal more in terms of how they relate to the corresponding Canadian political parties than the traditional definitions.
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On July 06 2010 02:07 Mothxal wrote: I never understood people who think ideology has something to do with fiscal responsibility. Honesty, competence seem like better predictors. When Republicans go on about spending and such that's just code for "giving money to lazy people", which is a cultural/moral issue more than it is economic, and it has nothing to do with the deficit. Managing the deficit is simply balancing spending against income.
@ixi.genocide, you're not the first conservative to worship at the altar of "realpolitik" and think that he's not ruled by ideology, unlike the rest. You'll actually find most of the facts in your post are completely wrong (universal healthcare wouldn't be more expensive, USA : Russia population is 1:2, not 1:3, there is a correlation between IQ and liberalism ) not to mention your invention of "real Tea-Party members", or your ridiculous generalization of why people vote for party X. I'm not saying that conservatism = irresponsibility and liberalism = responsibility. Obviously both can go either way. If your comments have anything to do with what I said I'm sorry I realize now that I didn't make it clear at all.
Lately, the conservative parties have been EXCEPTIONALLY BAD at handling the money - or so it seems to me.
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@Actualsteve
I think the question is too quick to implicate a groundless fear of "liberal bias".
What exactly are you talking about when you refer to liberals and conservatives?
Are you suggesting that they are two distinct groups of people? DrainX mentioned that
left/right isn't binary, and I would agree this is true.
What is your opinion of a conservative standpoint, as stated in your question?
These all have to be addressed before there's really any meaningful answers to your woes...
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On July 06 2010 02:06 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 02:03 angelicfolly wrote:On July 06 2010 01:57 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:49 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 01:33 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:28 JinMaikeul wrote:On July 06 2010 01:19 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:09 cemlions wrote:On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. That is a ridiculous quote. First of all how do you define smart people. Those who are well educated, succesfull financially, or maybe world recognition? Second of all what are you trying to accomplish with what you wrote, that the so called smart people agreeing with something makes it true, if so that liberalism is true because "smart people are liberal". I think such a tendency to look to "smart people " for guidance based on their merits, and accomplishments, rather than being analytical of the rational or viewpoint they advocate lends itself to a)not relying on critical thinking b)complete idiocy as such 1) A ridiculous quote? I wrote it. Seriously. 2) I use the very "smart" people as a benchmark here. Successful people who have used their brains in order to make discoveries or to become exceptionally talented in their fields. 3) I accomplish nothing. If you cared to make a research at all you would see that educated people heavily lean liberal. Up to you to explain why... It doesn't "make it true". Thinking liberalism or conservatism can be "true" is truly retarded. I don't base what I think on "what smart people think" but I think it would be ridiculous not to consider it. Stephen Hawking is a ridiculously good physicist. If he says something about politics, I'll put my mind to it even if it's conservative. FACT IS. It isn't... =( Even if you had some sort of study to prove this point, it completely ignores the question of whether their political stance is a result of their education or if it is a result of other factors such as some sort of bias in the academic community on a social level. Most of Hollywood is also liberal, but most people wouldn't attribute that to anything other than the fact that it's popular to be liberal there and not being liberal will often screw you out of opportunities. Correlation doesn't prove causation, it's true - I'm just posing the problem, I believe I've said that three freaking times. It doesn't ignore the question. It doesn't have an answer. I'll use the word "educated" instead of "smart" because it's more realistic (but I'm also incline to believe that smart people are more likely to get educated =P). So why are educated people largely liberal? I don't know. An instance of a smart person who leans to the left but WITH *BIG*, healthy nuances is Sam Harris. This is old but I feel that it's extremely relevant today. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/I strongly believe that Sam Harris's world view is more healthy than that of ANY conservative you can find. Read it. PS: Sam Harris is very educated =P PS: Ben Stein... that idiot somehow got this thread's banner, yuck. I agree with you about Sam Harris. But trust me, there are a lot of conservatives at his level. You just need to look around more  I know there are a lot of conservatives at his level. Just significantly less than there are liberals. And both sides have idiots... My problem is that the right seems to have more idiots =P Liberals have environmentalist nutjobs and a good amount of conspiracy theorists (though there are some "9/11 truthers" on the right) Conservatives have racists, "fiscal irresponsibility" (a lot more so than liberals btw!!!), people who don't know what socialism means, Texas, people who are fine with the way military is handled and funded. PS: I'm just kidding about Texas (sort of) The current democratic congress is fiscally irresponsible, so trying to say its more then liberals is a very moot point, and actually the the contrary of a fiscal Conservatives. I have seen my fair share of liberal racists, and the current and that comes to mind is planed parenthood. And in my opinion the left has more idiots then the right. Moot points... We both think each other's wrong which is quite normal. But I'll say that conservatives are a lot less fiscally responsible =P... And it's quite obvious that the current government's been handed a messed up country but at least he's not lowering taxes like a berserker.
Quit with the =P its not cute anymore. It also underlines what your aiming at.
You cannot generally say Conservatives are fiscally irresponsible, you just cannot because by the very definition of a fiscal Conservative is being responsible. How badly is up to you.
And the current Government made it INCREDIBLY WORSE. It's his problem now, and he's not helping the situation by saying it's still Bushes fault. Question, is a 8 trillion dollar bill helping? Simple answer no.
Actually, it would be good to lower taxes so the common folk can get some money.
On July 06 2010 02:07 Mothxal wrote:
I'm not saying that conservatism = irresponsibility and liberalism = responsibility
Lately, the conservative parties have been EXCEPTIONALLY BAD at handling the money - or so it seems to me.
Like I said before with the =P, it hints that was what your trying to say.
This is exactly what I was going to say about the Republican party. You must do note that politicians are an issue when talking about ideology. Point is they really shouldn't be used as a prime example.
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On July 05 2010 19:19 ActualSteve wrote: (I saw the thread from 2008; new administration, different players on the web ... this topic should be brought up to date.)
Seems like every time I watch a YouTube video about politics, I read the comments. Almost every time I read the comments, I see the conservative standpoint in the minority. Almost every time said standpoint is stated, 10+ people with opposing viewpoints jump at the opportunity of ridiculing the right.
Possible questions for you:: Do you think the internet has a liberal bias? Why? What implications does this have for our future? (Unnecessary, but I'll include it: Are TL users generally liberal?)
1. Please don't go Aegrean and mind fuck us all.
2. Say something insightful.
I'm HOPING someone who is conservative makes a stand here and everyone is mature about it. I'm also hoping that this can pass as a thread and not necessarily a blog. Apologize in advance if I'm mistaken... it's been awhile.
I always thought most of the active users on the internet were younger, and that liberals tend to be more common among younger people. I could be wrong this is just what I always thought.
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On July 06 2010 02:19 angelicfolly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 02:06 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 02:03 angelicfolly wrote:On July 06 2010 01:57 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:49 HnR)hT wrote:On July 06 2010 01:33 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:28 JinMaikeul wrote:On July 06 2010 01:19 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2010 01:09 cemlions wrote:On July 06 2010 00:10 Djzapz wrote: Smart people tend to lean towards the left =P
Look at the majority of the very smart people! Big claim I know but it's interesting to look into. It's surprising. That is a ridiculous quote. First of all how do you define smart people. Those who are well educated, succesfull financially, or maybe world recognition? Second of all what are you trying to accomplish with what you wrote, that the so called smart people agreeing with something makes it true, if so that liberalism is true because "smart people are liberal". I think such a tendency to look to "smart people " for guidance based on their merits, and accomplishments, rather than being analytical of the rational or viewpoint they advocate lends itself to a)not relying on critical thinking b)complete idiocy as such 1) A ridiculous quote? I wrote it. Seriously. 2) I use the very "smart" people as a benchmark here. Successful people who have used their brains in order to make discoveries or to become exceptionally talented in their fields. 3) I accomplish nothing. If you cared to make a research at all you would see that educated people heavily lean liberal. Up to you to explain why... It doesn't "make it true". Thinking liberalism or conservatism can be "true" is truly retarded. I don't base what I think on "what smart people think" but I think it would be ridiculous not to consider it. Stephen Hawking is a ridiculously good physicist. If he says something about politics, I'll put my mind to it even if it's conservative. FACT IS. It isn't... =( Even if you had some sort of study to prove this point, it completely ignores the question of whether their political stance is a result of their education or if it is a result of other factors such as some sort of bias in the academic community on a social level. Most of Hollywood is also liberal, but most people wouldn't attribute that to anything other than the fact that it's popular to be liberal there and not being liberal will often screw you out of opportunities. Correlation doesn't prove causation, it's true - I'm just posing the problem, I believe I've said that three freaking times. It doesn't ignore the question. It doesn't have an answer. I'll use the word "educated" instead of "smart" because it's more realistic (but I'm also incline to believe that smart people are more likely to get educated =P). So why are educated people largely liberal? I don't know. An instance of a smart person who leans to the left but WITH *BIG*, healthy nuances is Sam Harris. This is old but I feel that it's extremely relevant today. http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/I strongly believe that Sam Harris's world view is more healthy than that of ANY conservative you can find. Read it. PS: Sam Harris is very educated =P PS: Ben Stein... that idiot somehow got this thread's banner, yuck. I agree with you about Sam Harris. But trust me, there are a lot of conservatives at his level. You just need to look around more  I know there are a lot of conservatives at his level. Just significantly less than there are liberals. And both sides have idiots... My problem is that the right seems to have more idiots =P Liberals have environmentalist nutjobs and a good amount of conspiracy theorists (though there are some "9/11 truthers" on the right) Conservatives have racists, "fiscal irresponsibility" (a lot more so than liberals btw!!!), people who don't know what socialism means, Texas, people who are fine with the way military is handled and funded. PS: I'm just kidding about Texas (sort of) The current democratic congress is fiscally irresponsible, so trying to say its more then liberals is a very moot point, and actually the the contrary of a fiscal Conservatives. I have seen my fair share of liberal racists, and the current and that comes to mind is planed parenthood. And in my opinion the left has more idiots then the right. Moot points... We both think each other's wrong which is quite normal. But I'll say that conservatives are a lot less fiscally responsible =P... And it's quite obvious that the current government's been handed a messed up country but at least he's not lowering taxes like a berserker. Quit with the =P its not cute anymore. It also underlines what your aiming at. You cannot generally say Conservatives are fiscally irresponsible, you just cannot because by the very definition of a fiscal Conservative is being responsible. How badly is up to you. And the current Government made it INCREDIBLY WORSE. It's his problem now, and he's not helping the situation by saying it's still Bushes fault. Question, is a 8 trillion dollar bill helping? Simple answer no. Actually, it would be good to lower taxes so the common folk can get some money. Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 02:07 Mothxal wrote:
I'm not saying that conservatism = irresponsibility and liberalism = responsibility
Lately, the conservative parties have been EXCEPTIONALLY BAD at handling the money - or so it seems to me. Like I said before with the =P, it hints that was what your trying to say. This is exactly what I was going to say about the Republican party. You must do note that politicians are an issue when talking about ideology. Point is they really shouldn't be used as a prime example. No cute tongues then....
You know nothing about economics. Go home =(
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