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United States22883 Posts
On May 12 2010 14:10 On_Slaught wrote:
If the state is suffering economically and structually (deaths, lawlessness etc) and they feel they can prevent it by such matters it is NOT encroaching on Fedral jurisdiction. This law does not force Border Patrol agents to change their measures but just state run officials. They are NOT increasing border security and are NOT changing policy about how the government should protect the border... they are ONLY addressing in-state and state-related issues. First of all, it explicitly encroaches on federal jurisdiction. I'm not really sure how to explain that any clearer. Napolitano has said as much. Second, there was one stupid case of violence that was used to gain a moral majority, without any research supporting the notion that irregular migrants cause more crime (besides the actual border crossing part.) The available research shows the opposite.
There are many ways to interpret the 4th amendment. For starters these searches would not be "unreasonable" in the context of Arizona's situation. No, they very much still are. The scope of probable cause has been extended so much in this case. It's no longer the government requesting identification when you're involved in a crime. The crime being pursued is now illegal immigration, so they can ask for any reason and justify it with that.
You are severly overestimating the impact this will have on the state (economically). The entire Phoenix metro area (one of the largest cities in the US) said they would lose 90m over 5 years. Is that significant? Not really. Does it hurt? Yes. However I have no doubt things will calm down since it isn't unnatural for people to make blind knee-jerk reactions to hot topic things. A year from now noone will give a shit and they will find the next thing to be angry about.
I think you're underestimating it. That's a preliminary estimate on things like conferences and tourism (tourism to Phoenix? lol)
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/immigration/publications/impactofimmigrants08.pdf
the total state tax revenue attributable to immigrant workers was an estimated $2.4 billion (about $860 million for naturalized citizens plus about $1.5 billion for non-citizens). Balanced against estimated fiscal costs of $1.4 billion (for education, health care, and law enforcement), the net 2004 fiscal impact of immigrants in Arizona was positive by about $940 million.”
Moreover, the “2004 total economic output attributable to immigrant workers was about $44 billion ($15 billion for naturalized citizens and $29 billion for non-citizens). This output included $20 billion in labor and other income and resulted in approximately 400,000 full-time-equivalent jobs.”
Arizona is hugely dependent on immigrants, regular and irregular, and many of them don't want to live there anymore. That's a budding disaster. If the law were 100% effective, it would actually be worse for its economy. Losing 500,000 low paid workers from the current rebuilding project will just make everything else more expensive.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/28/20100428arizona-immigration-law-impact.html
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OK. You go find me 1,000 illegals and demand their "papers" without finding ONE US citizen and I'll think about it.
Then again, if you could do that you didn't need this law anyway, eh?
They are illegals... they don't have papers. They don't belong in America, with all our rights and all you stupid bastards to defend them.
How do you think all these immigrants feel that there are so many illegals and they had to go through the system? It's quite un-fair for some to have to become citizens when you can just be an illegal and have all the assholes and idiots of America to stand up for you.
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On May 12 2010 14:37 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +
Last I checked, looking Mexican in an area that happened to be a "popular" smuggling area was doing something suspicious.
Yea because using hypothetical situations is just like real life. If you are a Mexican, and an illegal one, you DESERVE to be harassed hanging out in an area that is known for smuggling, and a STATE KNOWN FOR HAVING TONS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. These people are NOT supposed to be here in the first place, if 1/5 Mexicans has to be harassed to get 4 illegals out, it's not racism and nor is it anything else but law enforcement.
Not hypothetical. It's a real-life situation. It actually happened.
If you are a Mexican, you do NOT deserve to be harassed because you are in an area known for smuggling, especially because the only reason you'd even be suspected of being illegal would be a racist stereotype.
Oh, and they turned out to be legal.
Nobody is defending illegal immigrants - at least, not directly. We're defending the Constitution, we're defending PEOPLE from blatant racism. It doesn't even matter if they are actually illegal immigrants, because LOOKING like a Mexican will net you a detainment until further notice. We might as well be defending the LEGAL immigrants who are punished because they LOOK Mexican.
It's quite unfair to punish legal immigrants because of the fact that they LOOK like illegal ones. I cannot express the work "Look" enough. It's appearance. It's inherently stereotypical (and, in this context, racism).
How is that not racist? Or do you advocate racism?
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United States22883 Posts
On May 12 2010 14:41 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +
OK. You go find me 1,000 illegals and demand their "papers" without finding ONE US citizen and I'll think about it.
Then again, if you could do that you didn't need this law anyway, eh?
They are illegals... they don't have papers. They don't belong in America, with all our rights and all you stupid bastards to defend them. How do you think all these immigrants feel that there are so many illegals and they had to go through the system? It's quite un-fair for some to have to become citizens when you can just be an illegal and have all the assholes and idiots of America to stand up for you.
Are you a recent migrant or naturalized citizen?
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Not hypothetical. It's a real-life situation. It actually happened.
If you are a Mexican, you do NOT deserve to be harassed because you are in an area known for smuggling, especially because the only reason you'd even be suspected of being illegal would be a racist stereotype.
Oh, and they turned out to be legal.
Great, and what does that non-illegal person suffer? Nothing.
Good point, seriously.
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On May 12 2010 14:41 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +
OK. You go find me 1,000 illegals and demand their "papers" without finding ONE US citizen and I'll think about it.
Then again, if you could do that you didn't need this law anyway, eh?
They are illegals... they don't have papers. They don't belong in America, with all our rights and all you stupid bastards to defend them. How do you think all these immigrants feel that there are so many illegals and they had to go through the system? It's quite un-fair for some to have to become citizens when you can just be an illegal and have all the assholes and idiots of America to stand up for you.
Ever wondered how the guy felt who lost his job because he couldnt show his birth certificate to the officer who pulled him over for no reason and he couldn't make his delivery on time because he got sent to jail for 6 hours? oh, probably not. Funny how that works.
Only men watch child porn. I say we search you every time you go in public for porn. You are all for this, right? I mean, Child molesters always have mustaches, lets profile based on that.
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On May 12 2010 14:48 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +
Not hypothetical. It's a real-life situation. It actually happened.
If you are a Mexican, you do NOT deserve to be harassed because you are in an area known for smuggling, especially because the only reason you'd even be suspected of being illegal would be a racist stereotype.
Oh, and they turned out to be legal.
Great, and what does that non-illegal person suffer? Nothing. Good point, seriously.
Imagine you're a legal immigrant, and you are stopped. Every. 3 minutes. Of your life. Because you look Mexican.
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They can't stop you for being Mexican.........
I get stopped when I'm in a bad neighborhood, it's happened 3 times in the past month. I'm white, I'm the last person in the world a cop would stop, yes it fucking sucks to have your time wasted by cops, but it's for a good reason.
Solution: Don't look like you're carrying guns and crack, and stay away from those neighborhoods, if you can't do either of those, well hey - you're GOING to get harassed not because of YOURSELF but because of the general population. Stereotypes and profiling HAS to exist for cops to do their job right. EVERYONE profiles, EVERYONE stereotypes.
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Tho it might be hard to tell, I am not conservative on most issues and I hate most republicans. Therefore while I defend the law and the message it sends to tighten the borders I actually think there should be a process for nationalization for those already in the country. Perhaps the timing is arbitrary but it seems clear that there is already a significant amount of illegals in the country who are hard workers who could become citizens.
Back on point, I agree with Governor Brewer that any impact will be greatly mitigated by the fact that not everyone is against this. Considering it is clear that more than half the country is for this bill we have no reason to believe this wouldn't translate to companies and small business. Just because those leaving are the most vocal doesn't mean there isn't plenty of business still comming to Arizona. Also it would be naive to think that businessmen care more about making a moral stance then making money. If they can make money here then damn be the law. On top of this non-political worker orginizations (unions) can't think this is pragmatically bad since this can only mean better wages for workers. I still think this fad of hating Arizona will dwindle as time passes too.
My argument concerning the 4th amendment remains tenable since the procedure isn't changing the law.
As far as the constitutionality goes, the courts will have to decide. However I still think it will stand considering all the steps in the process that involve the actual immigration status of someone are carried on the federal level. Basically the state just sends the suspects.
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On May 12 2010 14:52 v3chr0 wrote:
They can't stop you for being Mexican.........
Too bad, they'll find a way. That's how it works.
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On May 12 2010 14:57 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 14:52 v3chr0 wrote:
They can't stop you for being Mexican......... Too bad, they'll find a way. That's how it works.
No it's not, if everything worked the way people wanted, there wouldn't be any problems, specifically this one.
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V3chr0, what have you done to earn citizenship in the United States?
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On May 12 2010 14:58 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 14:57 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 12 2010 14:52 v3chr0 wrote:
They can't stop you for being Mexican......... Too bad, they'll find a way. That's how it works. No it's not, if everything worked the way people wanted, there wouldn't be any problems, specifically this one.
I never said things worked the way people wanted. I'm just saying that this is how this particular scenario occurs.
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On May 12 2010 15:01 Zealotdriver wrote:
V3chr0, what have you done to earn citizenship in the United States? He was born white.
Or rather, not of questionable color
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On May 12 2010 15:02 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 15:01 Zealotdriver wrote:
V3chr0, what have you done to earn citizenship in the United States? He was born white.
I was born in America. White too if racism is your recurring theme.
You must be white too Romantic, or you'd be complaining about how blacks born in America aren't actually citizens? right?
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On May 12 2010 15:04 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 15:02 Romantic wrote:On May 12 2010 15:01 Zealotdriver wrote:
V3chr0, what have you done to earn citizenship in the United States? He was born white. I was born in America. White too if racism is your recurring theme.
No, you were born in America white. Easy to preach about how people shouldn't care if their government questions their citizenship based on color when you're a majority. Just about the same way its easy to spew bullshit about America isn't a secularized country when you're in a majority Christian faith.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 12 2010 15:04 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 15:02 Romantic wrote:On May 12 2010 15:01 Zealotdriver wrote:
V3chr0, what have you done to earn citizenship in the United States? He was born white. I was born in America.
Pardon my Spanish, but then how the fuck do you know how legal immigrants feel about irregular immigrants in the country?
You're making up conjecture to fit your underlying message. How they feel is really irrelevant to you.
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THERE IS NO "BASED ON COLOR", IT'S BASED ON SUSPICION! Lord in heaven, Jesus Christ, repel the ignorance of these people.
Edit: Jibba, it's called friends and the media.
Anyway, I'm done dealing with e-diots.
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On May 12 2010 15:11 v3chr0 wrote:
THERE IS NO "BASED ON COLOR", IT'S BASED ON SUSPICION! Lord in heaven, Jesus Christ, repel the ignorance of these people.
Anyway, I'm done dealing with e-diots.
How else to you suspect someone of not being a citizen?
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United States22883 Posts
On May 12 2010 15:11 v3chr0 wrote:
Edit: Jibba, it's called friends and the media.
In that case, then is "I know a dude..." now a permitted defense?.
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EPT
