On June 26 2012 10:09 Josealtron wrote: Lol @ all the people that are saying "they need to come here legally". The fact of the matter is, unless you have some sort of business connection(I even have family who can't get here legally, family connections don't always help) or some other reason that makes you "important", you're not getting here legally, especially if you're coming from Latin America. Period. I don't think many of the posters here understand just how broken our immigration system is. Illegal immigration wouldn't be a big issue if it were actually reasonably possible to get here legally.
Why should it be so easy for anyone and everyone to immigrate to the US?
Why shouldn't it be? A legal immigrant from Latin America would pay all their taxes just like everyone else, could become educated and important members of society just like anyone else(though that would be far easier if college weren't so expensive in the US, but that's another issue) and will contribute to society just like any other person. And even though many of them will simply become laborers, that doesn't necessarily mean that their kids will be like that as well-there's already many cases of illegal immigrant students who did very well in school not being able to attend college, which is very sad considering the wasted potential. We don't have an overpopulation problem in the U.S., that I'm aware of-and honestly, many immigrants contribute more to society than most natural born immigrants, simply because they understand the opportunity that there is here compared to places like Mexico.
The real question is, why SHOULDN'T we allow these people in?
note: I know people are mainly referring to Mexican/Latin American immigrants so those are the main people I'm focusing on. The same applies to immigrants from other countries with similar situations, though.
I'm a little unclear on this particular piece of legislation. I was under the impression that this law is word for word the same as the federal one that the executive branch has recently refused to really enforce. Am I wrong on this point? *Genuinely wants to know.*
I wonder which kind of shitstorm Germany would face (esp. from the US) if it would think about such a law. As i personally know quite a few of "illegal" immigrants who want to work hard and succeeded with it and are now proper citizen, i am against such a law but i don't have the day-by-day experience some of you guys have.
Reducing the requirements for legal immigration is the key in my opinion. The more "legal" people the better, assuming we get our entitlement programs under control.
the "war on illegal immigrants" is just as futile as the war on drugs. you can throw all of the money and laws at it you want, but in the end, the problem will never go away and you'll just end up reducing people's rights and putting people in jail that shouldn't be
On June 26 2012 04:37 Pyskee wrote: Immigration in this country certainly needs to be reformed. I have plenty of friends who came here completely legally, and they all agree it was a bitch. Having said that, they still came here the legitimate way; so it's not impossible and at least they pay taxes and actually funnel money into our economy. Illegal immigrants are a burden to everyone here legally and are insulting to everyone that did immigrate the right way.
I'm all for making it easier to come in here, but until then this problem can't be solved by just letting them stay. This bill won't really help either, even with the Supreme Court decision. We need the federal government behind it to do anything about it.
This is oversimplified to the point of being completely distorted. Do illegal immigrants put a great deal of stress on public infrastructure? Sure. But they also serve as a labor lynchpin with which many US businesses continue to operate. Reality can be awfully insulting I'm afraid.
So the few dollars less than minimum wage they make is going straight towards infrastructure and healthcare, right? Without the need to support illegals tax burdens on citizens would be reduced due to them not consuming education, health care, transportation, police resources, etc. Furthermore with that money recirculating rather than being mailed to family in Mexico the economy is stimulated and continues to flow. Sorry, we don't need illegal immigrants in the workforce.
Why do a lot of people automatically assume that illegal immigrants only come from Mexico or any other South American or Central American countries? Why do people automatically assume that all illegal immigrants will be doing minimum wage jobs? Why do people assume that illegals have nothing to offer for this country, and instead of making them citizens and having them contribute to the supposed "tax burden," we deport them out of the country as if they are filth and trash?
Illegal immigrants, like any immigrant to the United States, came here for a better life, escaping poverty, lack of opportunity, oppression, war, prejudice, racism, violence, etc. And many cannot afford to even go through the legal methods, or there may not even be ways to go through legal methods for them. Does that mean that they should be condemned to being forever stuck in a hopeless situation and denied a better life?
I've had friends who were illegal immigrants at one point in there lives or another, still are, or maybe there parents were/are. I've heard stories of those who came to the country through less than legal means talk of hardships of not being able to afford healthcare because of illegal immigration, even when they have desperately needed it. Some have been unable to afford college because of their immigration status--students who have worked their asses off during High School, getting 4.5+GPAs and accepted into some of the biggest, most prestigious institutions in the world. And mind you, they were brought here at a young age, where moving was beyond their control and political concepts, let alone the act of walking, were beyond them. Many of my friends have become successful, going to high level universities, and have dreams of becoming something in the world and making a mark. Although not "American" citizenship-wise, they are patriotic and consider themselves as American as any natural born or naturalized citizen of the United States of America.
So please, before making any sweeping, ignorant, generalizations about any and all illegal immigrants in the USA, think about the fact that they are human as you and I, and as human, they deserve to be treated with the same dignity and respect as you expected to be treated with. It is terrible that I have to go through this thread and see posters dehumanize illegal immigrants by stereotyping them. I expected better out of Teamliquid. Guess I expected too much.
As to the law itself, I find it ridiculous. How the heck is the "police are allowed to ask for your immigration papers" without committing racism and stereotyping. Unless they enact a policy where they ask it from anyone they stop, or have it set so that you can only ask for papers when first enforcing another law (speeding, etc), I find it ridiculous. And let's be real, if they stop a white guy on the streets, what are the chances that, even if he is a citizen, he is going to be carrying: 1) proof of citizenship. 2) arrest him if he doesn't.
Now think about what will happen if it was a guy who looks Hispanic or Mexican, who's family has been living in the United States for many generations. what are the chances that he will get arrested? And be wrongly accused of being illegal while perhaps a illegal, i dunno, Canadian guy, walks right on by without attracting suspicion.
This law is, in my opinion, too hard to enforce justly and has a real danger of sparking racial tensions.
And sorry for the epic long post, I get really emotional about this kind of stuff because it just disgusts me to see people just talk about other human beings in such a manner.
tl;dr: Illegal immigrants are real people too with real dreams and real aspirations. Treat them as such.
It doesn't matter where they are from, but yes, a majority of them are from Mexico and a very large number of them don't speak the native language (US doesn't have an official language, blah, blah, blah, it's de facto). This leads to a ton of them working minimum wage and manual labor jobs. Not all sure, whatever. You can name a few exceptions to any generalization, but the reason generalizations tend to exist is because of a large amount of truth. So in short the exceptions aren't relevant because they are a vast minority.
I know we would all love to live in an idealistic world where everyone is equal, but that isn't how it is and furthermore it isn't our job to ensure that every South American gets all the rights and opportunities of a US citizen. The USA can't physically do this, we don't have the resources, and when we do try to intervene and prop up a country that failed to run itself we end up with situations like Vietnam. Know whose job it is to ensure these people's rights? Their governments. If their government sucks they should take a look at what Egypt did last year.
Don't like it don't live there then. This is not a racist law, this law is being made to protect american citizens jobs and communities. If you are going to come to america then be american. Leave the cultural bullshit at home when you go to work or whatever it is you do.
On June 26 2012 11:45 FarmI3oy wrote: Don't like it don't live there then. This is not a racist law, this law is being made to protect american citizens jobs and communities. If you are going to come to america then be american. Leave the cultural bullshit at home when you go to work or whatever it is you do.
And what is American exactly? This country is a mish mash of all different cultures, which one do you want them to pick and adopt?
On June 26 2012 11:16 1Eris1 wrote: Reducing the requirements for legal immigration is the key in my opinion. The more "legal" people the better, assuming we get our entitlement programs under control.
If conservatives ever figure this part out, then they will have far more success in their efforts to address the immigration issue. If nothing else, it's certainly help abolish the image they currently have as xenophobic racists when they want to be tough on illegal immigration.
On June 26 2012 11:45 FarmI3oy wrote: Don't like it don't live there then. This is not a racist law, this law is being made to protect american citizens jobs and communities. If you are going to come to america then be american. Leave the cultural bullshit at home when you go to work or whatever it is you do.
you are right giving cops the authority to detain and question people without any warrant, solely based on stereotypical external appearance is very american. There is a reason the supreme court unanimously crushed this, because it is unconstitutional and anti-american.
On June 26 2012 10:09 Josealtron wrote: Lol @ all the people that are saying "they need to come here legally". The fact of the matter is, unless you have some sort of business connection(I even have family who can't get here legally, family connections don't always help) or some other reason that makes you "important", you're not getting here legally, especially if you're coming from Latin America. Period. I don't think many of the posters here understand just how broken our immigration system is. Illegal immigration wouldn't be a big issue if it were actually reasonably possible to get here legally.
Why should it be so easy for anyone and everyone to immigrate to the US?
Why shouldn't it be? A legal immigrant from Latin America would pay all their taxes just like everyone else, could become educated and important members of society just like anyone else(though that would be far easier if college weren't so expensive in the US, but that's another issue) and will contribute to society just like any other person. And even though many of them will simply become laborers, that doesn't necessarily mean that their kids will be like that as well-there's already many cases of illegal immigrant students who did very well in school not being able to attend college, which is very sad considering the wasted potential. We don't have an overpopulation problem in the U.S., that I'm aware of-and honestly, many immigrants contribute more to society than most natural born immigrants, simply because they understand the opportunity that there is here compared to places like Mexico.
The real question is, why SHOULDN'T we allow these people in?
note: I know people are mainly referring to Mexican/Latin American immigrants so those are the main people I'm focusing on. The same applies to immigrants from other countries with similar situations, though.
Have you ever visited a foreign embassy? I went to the one in Ethiopia and there was lines several hundred people long, stretching around the street, and even more in the waiting room (largest waiting room I have ever seen in my life). Most of these people are willing to spend all their money just to fly over. I think you have the right mindset, but we simply cannot accept everyone.
On June 26 2012 04:53 Probe1 wrote: Speaking of oversimplification, I like how the OP just uses a snippet of history to set the tone for his post. The Mexican War was rather shit of us but the Republic of Texas openly rebelled against Mexico and asked to join the United States. Mexico disputed the territorial lines and attacked American soldiers inside of Texas. A war was had, horrible and short, and when the shots ended the US paid Mexico 18 million for Alta California and New Mexico and agreed to cessation of hostilities.
The US-Mexico war was nothing more than an opportunist move by an aggressive expansionist country against an opponent going through a period of serious internal turmoil. Though I'm sure it is taught in America as the "Liberation of Texas" or "Operation California Freedom"... something like that, so I understand your point of view.
I think Probe1 describes it a bit more reasonably and detailed than you describe it, so I'm inclined to go with his version more so than yours, regardless of where I'm from.
To be fair no one is ever wholly innocent or to blame. Most posts in this thread are dealing with absolutes. For example:
On June 26 2012 07:14 valium wrote: It is not like a majority of illegal immigrants are coming to the United States from war torn countries and they are fleeing for their very lives, they are coming from countries that they could most likely make a comfortable living but think coming to the United States will improve their lot in life.
I see a big difference in that. If they want to come into the United States, they should do it legally. That is the crux of the matter, people doing something --> illegal <-- and that is causing problems.
If you are in Mexico and have no family or business ties to the U.S. it is simply not possible to immigrate legally. You might as well say, "If people don't like being poor, they should just win the lottery in their home country instead of immigrating to the U.S." since that is much more feasible and therefore practical advice.
So they should break the law, cause problems for everyone (themselves included) because they want more money? If it is so bad that they need to flood into a different country why not try to improve their own?
Their case is never wholly about improved wages. What about Mexicans escaping the rampant gang violence that is funded by our (Americas) love for illicit American drugs? Are we to blame? Are they?
We are both to blame. The United States needs more accepting immigration laws that allows the process to take place legally. Just like drug regulation, all criminalization does is bring a larger burden onto the State by allocating tax revenue to prevention, protection and detainment.
The US needs new national policies regarding immigration and drug enforcement. The issues are entwined and one cannot be mostly solved without addressing the other.
Arizona needs to lay off the crazy pills however. There's far to many stories of "militias" and far too few of generosity or reasonable folk.
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf NBA superstar Charles Barkley and others such as myself are outraged with this new law. Now officers can racially profile anyone who looks Mexican and ask them for their legality papers. I asked my mexican roommate what he would do if a cop asked him, he replied that he would tell the cop, "go fuck yourself."
According to the US Census Bureau, AZ had a 6,595,778 population in 2009. In 2008 30.1% of these people were persons of Hispanic or Latino origin. Furthermore, Arizona used to be in Mexico... "In the Mexican–American War (1847), the U.S. occupied Mexico City and forced the newly founded Mexican Republic to give up its northern territories, including what later became Arizona" (wiki) Then again, countless Native American tribes were deported when we claimed America, so I gather this is standard protocol.
This law has already started protests of the state of Arizona, including one by Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik who refuses to uphold the law, saying it is "unwise", "stupid", and "racist."
Personally, as a non-mexican arizonan i find this law comparable to Nazi Germany, and just flat out wack. Thoughts? If anyone is for this law please state your reasoning as it baffles me that a resident of this fine state would support it.
1. The law doesn't allow a cop to just walk up to any Mexican and ask for their papers... so I wish ignorant people like the OP would stop saying it would be open season on Mexicans. You can only question someone if it is during a police required situation (like if someone had a car crash).
2. The law specifically says you can't profile based on race. If you don't think this will work then you have a problem with police not the law. Infact, if the police officer can't prove he had merit to ask then he can be SUED. I'm sure they will still run around racial profiling.
3. If you are in the US on a vista or visiting for whatever reason FEDERAL law already says you must carry documentation with you. Last I checked it's still ILLEGAL to be in the country so really all this does is enforce long-standing federal law. What it does is give is officers a legal backing for following up on suspicions.
4. Your roommate is a moron. You can't choose to not follow certain laws just because you don't want to.
5. Comparing this to Nazi Germany is as pathetic as Tea partiers who compare higher tax rates (very low historically) to having genocide commited against them.
6. Noone should give a shit waht the cheif of police's and such say because they are political figureheads. It's widely known that while the CoP are against this law the actual police orginizations are for it.
7. Your example of Arizona being a part of Mexico at one point is absurd and non-relevant. we just magically owned the whole east and north parts of the country from nothingness I suppose.
8. Our state passed it. Most of the people in the state (and apparently the country by many polls) are for this law. This is a democracy. On top of that we have state rights. Deal with it or leave the country or just don't come to Arizona we don't care.
I really think this will turn into a racial profiling thing until someone actually sues and gets to the Supreme Court. I really think the law is going to turn into an Gestapo kind of thing, that is what we are all afraid of.
On June 26 2012 04:37 Pyskee wrote: Immigration in this country certainly needs to be reformed. I have plenty of friends who came here completely legally, and they all agree it was a bitch. Having said that, they still came here the legitimate way; so it's not impossible and at least they pay taxes and actually funnel money into our economy. Illegal immigrants are a burden to everyone here legally and are insulting to everyone that did immigrate the right way.
I'm all for making it easier to come in here, but until then this problem can't be solved by just letting them stay. This bill won't really help either, even with the Supreme Court decision. We need the federal government behind it to do anything about it.
This is oversimplified to the point of being completely distorted. Do illegal immigrants put a great deal of stress on public infrastructure? Sure. But they also serve as a labor lynchpin with which many US businesses continue to operate. Reality can be awfully insulting I'm afraid.
So the few dollars less than minimum wage they make is going straight towards infrastructure and healthcare, right? Without the need to support illegals tax burdens on citizens would be reduced due to them not consuming education, health care, transportation, police resources, etc. Furthermore with that money recirculating rather than being mailed to family in Mexico the economy is stimulated and continues to flow. Sorry, we don't need illegal immigrants in the workforce.
Why do a lot of people automatically assume that illegal immigrants only come from Mexico or any other South American or Central American countries? Why do people automatically assume that all illegal immigrants will be doing minimum wage jobs? Why do people assume that illegals have nothing to offer for this country, and instead of making them citizens and having them contribute to the supposed "tax burden," we deport them out of the country as if they are filth and trash?
Illegal immigrants, like any immigrant to the United States, came here for a better life, escaping poverty, lack of opportunity, oppression, war, prejudice, racism, violence, etc. And many cannot afford to even go through the legal methods, or there may not even be ways to go through legal methods for them. Does that mean that they should be condemned to being forever stuck in a hopeless situation and denied a better life?
I've had friends who were illegal immigrants at one point in there lives or another, still are, or maybe there parents were/are. I've heard stories of those who came to the country through less than legal means talk of hardships of not being able to afford healthcare because of illegal immigration, even when they have desperately needed it. Some have been unable to afford college because of their immigration status--students who have worked their asses off during High School, getting 4.5+GPAs and accepted into some of the biggest, most prestigious institutions in the world. And mind you, they were brought here at a young age, where moving was beyond their control and political concepts, let alone the act of walking, were beyond them. Many of my friends have become successful, going to high level universities, and have dreams of becoming something in the world and making a mark. Although not "American" citizenship-wise, they are patriotic and consider themselves as American as any natural born or naturalized citizen of the United States of America.
So please, before making any sweeping, ignorant, generalizations about any and all illegal immigrants in the USA, think about the fact that they are human as you and I, and as human, they deserve to be treated with the same dignity and respect as you expected to be treated with. It is terrible that I have to go through this thread and see posters dehumanize illegal immigrants by stereotyping them. I expected better out of Teamliquid. Guess I expected too much.
As to the law itself, I find it ridiculous. How the heck is the "police are allowed to ask for your immigration papers" without committing racism and stereotyping. Unless they enact a policy where they ask it from anyone they stop, or have it set so that you can only ask for papers when first enforcing another law (speeding, etc), I find it ridiculous. And let's be real, if they stop a white guy on the streets, what are the chances that, even if he is a citizen, he is going to be carrying: 1) proof of citizenship. 2) arrest him if he doesn't.
Now think about what will happen if it was a guy who looks Hispanic or Mexican, who's family has been living in the United States for many generations. what are the chances that he will get arrested? And be wrongly accused of being illegal while perhaps a illegal, i dunno, Canadian guy, walks right on by without attracting suspicion.
This law is, in my opinion, too hard to enforce justly and has a real danger of sparking racial tensions.
And sorry for the epic long post, I get really emotional about this kind of stuff because it just disgusts me to see people just talk about other human beings in such a manner.
tl;dr: Illegal immigrants are real people too with real dreams and real aspirations. Treat them as such.
The USA can't physically do this, we don't have the resources, and when we do try to intervene and prop up a country that failed to run itself we end up with situations like Vietnam.
On May 12 2010 09:58 ragnasaur wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ98z4__H-g http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf NBA superstar Charles Barkley and others such as myself are outraged with this new law. Now officers can racially profile anyone who looks Mexican and ask them for their legality papers. I asked my mexican roommate what he would do if a cop asked him, he replied that he would tell the cop, "go fuck yourself."
According to the US Census Bureau, AZ had a 6,595,778 population in 2009. In 2008 30.1% of these people were persons of Hispanic or Latino origin. Furthermore, Arizona used to be in Mexico... "In the Mexican–American War (1847), the U.S. occupied Mexico City and forced the newly founded Mexican Republic to give up its northern territories, including what later became Arizona" (wiki) Then again, countless Native American tribes were deported when we claimed America, so I gather this is standard protocol.
This law has already started protests of the state of Arizona, including one by Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik who refuses to uphold the law, saying it is "unwise", "stupid", and "racist."
Personally, as a non-mexican arizonan i find this law comparable to Nazi Germany, and just flat out wack. Thoughts? If anyone is for this law please state your reasoning as it baffles me that a resident of this fine state would support it.
1. The law doesn't allow a cop to just walk up to any Mexican and ask for their papers... so I wish ignorant people like the OP would stop saying it would be open season on Mexicans. You can only question someone if it is during a police required situation (like if someone had a car crash).
2. The law specifically says you can't profile based on race. If you don't think this will work then you have a problem with police not the law. Infact, if the police officer can't prove he had merit to ask then he can be SUED. I'm sure they will still run around racial profiling.
3. If you are in the US on a vista or visiting for whatever reason FEDERAL law already says you must carry documentation with you. Last I checked it's still ILLEGAL to be in the country so really all this does is enforce long-standing federal law. What it does is give is officers a legal backing for following up on suspicions.
4. Your roommate is a moron. You can't choose to not follow certain laws just because you don't want to.
5. Comparing this to Nazi Germany is as pathetic as Tea partiers who compare higher tax rates (very low historically) to having genocide commited against them.
6. Noone should give a shit waht the cheif of police's and such say because they are political figureheads. It's widely known that while the CoP are against this law the actual police orginizations are for it.
7. Your example of Arizona being a part of Mexico at one point is absurd and non-relevant. we just magically owned the whole east and north parts of the country from nothingness I suppose.
8. Our state passed it. Most of the people in the state (and apparently the country by many polls) are for this law. This is a democracy. On top of that we have state rights. Deal with it or leave the country or just don't come to Arizona we don't care.
I really think this will turn into a racial profiling thing until someone actually sues and gets to the Supreme Court. I really think the law is going to turn into an Gestapo kind of thing, that is what we are all afraid of.
The majority opinion basically says that when it gets challenged on a case by case basis, they will likely throw out any use of the law to profile. I know it's not said explicitly, but I read a LOT of these opinions, and that's basically what they're saying.
EPT
