EPTArizona SB1070 Anti Immigration Law - Page 21
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
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valium
United States251 Posts
I see a big difference in that. If they want to come into the United States, they should do it legally. That is the crux of the matter, people doing something --> illegal <-- and that is causing problems. | ||
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Asshat
593 Posts
On June 26 2012 04:53 Probe1 wrote: Speaking of oversimplification, I like how the OP just uses a snippet of history to set the tone for his post. The Mexican War was rather shit of us but the Republic of Texas openly rebelled against Mexico and asked to join the United States. Mexico disputed the territorial lines and attacked American soldiers inside of Texas. A war was had, horrible and short, and when the shots ended the US paid Mexico 18 million for Alta California and New Mexico and agreed to cessation of hostilities. The US-Mexico war was nothing more than an opportunist move by an aggressive expansionist country against an opponent going through a period of serious internal turmoil. Though I'm sure it is taught in America as the "Liberation of Texas" or "Operation California Freedom"... something like that, so I understand your point of view. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On June 26 2012 07:47 Asshat wrote: The US-Mexico war was nothing more than an opportunist move by an aggressive expansionist country against an opponent going through a period of serious internal turmoil. Though I'm sure it is taught in America as the "Liberation of Texas" or "Operation California Freedom"... something like that, so I understand your point of view. I think Probe1 describes it a bit more reasonably and detailed than you describe it, so I'm inclined to go with his version more so than yours, regardless of where I'm from. | ||
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HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On June 26 2012 07:14 valium wrote: It is not like a majority of illegal immigrants are coming to the United States from war torn countries and they are fleeing for their very lives, they are coming from countries that they could most likely make a comfortable living but think coming to the United States will improve their lot in life. I see a big difference in that. If they want to come into the United States, they should do it legally. That is the crux of the matter, people doing something --> illegal <-- and that is causing problems. If you are in Mexico and have no family or business ties to the U.S. it is simply not possible to immigrate legally. You might as well say, "If people don't like being poor, they should just win the lottery in their home country instead of immigrating to the U.S." since that is much more feasible and therefore practical advice. | ||
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.Wilsh.
United States133 Posts
On June 26 2012 06:23 EienShinwa wrote: Man we're such fucked up human beings. It's like we see illegal immigrants as disgusting filth. They came because there are no jobs in their country or wanted a better life for their kids. Because they couldn't come here legally due to the fact they have no money to begin with, all we're saying is to get them the fuck out. This law is a fucking joke. It's putting the burden of proof on the accused. Putting everything aside, that's just fucked up. Instead of trying to help these people get legalized and MAKE them pay the taxes and be citizens so that we can fix this shit of an economy, we're trying to witch hunt everyone that looks illegal. Go America! Land of the free and home of the brave amirite? Should we have open borders? Everyone that comes in can be a citizen? You can't have open borders when you have welfare programs. We take in more people who emigrate from their countries than any where else. We aren't even that bad when it comes to us finding illegal immigrants. Places like Mexico throw them in jail for 5 years. Most of this Arizona law is just a straight copy from the Federal law, which is the reason most of it got shot down. The Federal law even says that you have to "have your papers." I would like immigration to be reformed to have fast paths to citizenship for people who come here to study or join the military. And let in even more people each year. | ||
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sTsFedEx
4 Posts
Arizona legislature has usually always been quiet appalling. | ||
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fellcrow
United States288 Posts
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nohbrows
United States653 Posts
On June 26 2012 06:08 Greggle wrote: So the few dollars less than minimum wage they make is going straight towards infrastructure and healthcare, right? Without the need to support illegals tax burdens on citizens would be reduced due to them not consuming education, health care, transportation, police resources, etc. Furthermore with that money recirculating rather than being mailed to family in Mexico the economy is stimulated and continues to flow. Sorry, we don't need illegal immigrants in the workforce. Why do a lot of people automatically assume that illegal immigrants only come from Mexico or any other South American or Central American countries? Why do people automatically assume that all illegal immigrants will be doing minimum wage jobs? Why do people assume that illegals have nothing to offer for this country, and instead of making them citizens and having them contribute to the supposed "tax burden," we deport them out of the country as if they are filth and trash? Illegal immigrants, like any immigrant to the United States, came here for a better life, escaping poverty, lack of opportunity, oppression, war, prejudice, racism, violence, etc. And many cannot afford to even go through the legal methods, or there may not even be ways to go through legal methods for them. Does that mean that they should be condemned to being forever stuck in a hopeless situation and denied a better life? I've had friends who were illegal immigrants at one point in there lives or another, still are, or maybe there parents were/are. I've heard stories of those who came to the country through less than legal means talk of hardships of not being able to afford healthcare because of illegal immigration, even when they have desperately needed it. Some have been unable to afford college because of their immigration status--students who have worked their asses off during High School, getting 4.5+GPAs and accepted into some of the biggest, most prestigious institutions in the world. And mind you, they were brought here at a young age, where moving was beyond their control and political concepts, let alone the act of walking, were beyond them. Many of my friends have become successful, going to high level universities, and have dreams of becoming something in the world and making a mark. Although not "American" citizenship-wise, they are patriotic and consider themselves as American as any natural born or naturalized citizen of the United States of America. So please, before making any sweeping, ignorant, generalizations about any and all illegal immigrants in the USA, think about the fact that they are human as you and I, and as human, they deserve to be treated with the same dignity and respect as you expected to be treated with. It is terrible that I have to go through this thread and see posters dehumanize illegal immigrants by stereotyping them. I expected better out of Teamliquid. Guess I expected too much. As to the law itself, I find it ridiculous. How the heck is the "police are allowed to ask for your immigration papers" without committing racism and stereotyping. Unless they enact a policy where they ask it from anyone they stop, or have it set so that you can only ask for papers when first enforcing another law (speeding, etc), I find it ridiculous. And let's be real, if they stop a white guy on the streets, what are the chances that, even if he is a citizen, he is going to be carrying: 1) proof of citizenship. 2) arrest him if he doesn't. Now think about what will happen if it was a guy who looks Hispanic or Mexican, who's family has been living in the United States for many generations. what are the chances that he will get arrested? And be wrongly accused of being illegal while perhaps a illegal, i dunno, Canadian guy, walks right on by without attracting suspicion. This law is, in my opinion, too hard to enforce justly and has a real danger of sparking racial tensions. And sorry for the epic long post, I get really emotional about this kind of stuff because it just disgusts me to see people just talk about other human beings in such a manner. tl;dr: Illegal immigrants are real people too with real dreams and real aspirations. Treat them as such. | ||
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" How quickly we give up our dream the second we have power. It's a shame, really. That said, this ruling is a huge win. SCOTUS smacked down AZ legislature something hard. The language with regards to 2b essentially neuters it. the Court was clearly hinting that if the "show your papers" law led to any semblance of profiling, the situation would amount to a constitutional violation of rights. | ||
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fellcrow
United States288 Posts
On June 26 2012 08:32 nohbrows wrote: tl;dr: Illegal immigrants are real people too with real dreams and real aspirations. Treat them as such. Yeah, I have dreams and aspirations too. My dream is that I will have a world of only hot chinese girls and rich white people. And I have aspirations to go on a killing spree and burn entire cities down and cause mayhem and havoc! Ok that is SLIGHTLY extreme...but having dreams and aspirations doesn't change that they broke our laws. I don't care what there dreams and aspirations are, I'm sorry. When you come to our country, respect our laws. | ||
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nohbrows
United States653 Posts
On June 26 2012 08:46 fellcrow wrote: Yeah, I have dreams and aspirations too. My dream is that I will have a world of only hot chinese girls and rich white people. And I have aspirations to go on a killing spree and burn entire cities down and cause mayhem and havoc! Ok that is SLIGHTLY extreme...but having dreams and aspirations doesn't change that they broke our laws. I don't care what there dreams and aspirations are, I'm sorry. When you come to our country, respect our laws. I mean...did you read the rest of the tl;dr? I was going to come up with an argument, then I realized how pointless it will be to argue with someone who thinks so simply and ignores how complicated of an issue illegal immigration is with a simple statement as "respect our laws." Edit: But I mean, come on, what are you going to do then? Go deport every single illegal immigrant in the United States and then send them back to a living hell after they have established a comfortable life here? Or at least one better than the one they left? Just because it is law doesn't make it ethically or morally right. And illegal immigration is not just a legal issue. It is a moral and ethical issue as well. | ||
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drumsetjunky
United States136 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:33 On_Slaught wrote: 1. The law doesn't allow a cop to just walk up to any Mexican and ask for their papers... so I wish ignorant people like the OP would stop saying it would be open season on Mexicans. You can only question someone if it is during a police required situation (like if someone had a car crash). 2. The law specifically says you can't profile based on race. If you don't think this will work then you have a problem with police not the law. Infact, if the police officer can't prove he had merit to ask then he can be SUED. I'm sure they will still run around racial profiling. 3. If you are in the US on a vista or visiting for whatever reason FEDERAL law already says you must carry documentation with you. Last I checked it's still ILLEGAL to be in the country so really all this does is enforce long-standing federal law. What it does is give is officers a legal backing for following up on suspicions. 4. Your roommate is a moron. You can't choose to not follow certain laws just because you don't want to. 5. Comparing this to Nazi Germany is as pathetic as Tea partiers who compare higher tax rates (very low historically) to having genocide commited against them. 6. Noone should give a shit waht the cheif of police's and such say because they are political figureheads. It's widely known that while the CoP are against this law the actual police orginizations are for it. 7. Your example of Arizona being a part of Mexico at one point is absurd and non-relevant. we just magically owned the whole east and north parts of the country from nothingness I suppose. 8. Our state passed it. Most of the people in the state (and apparently the country by many polls) are for this law. This is a democracy. On top of that we have state rights. Deal with it or leave the country or just don't come to Arizona we don't care. Thank you for common sense. All the "racial profiling" BS is getting real old. Why should Arizona be condemned for UPHOLDING THE LAW THAT IS ALREADY IN PLACE? I do not have any problem with people wanting to come to the states LEGALLY and taking advantage of the great opportunities available. I don't have a problem with those that wish to become citizens(LEGALLY). I do not think that the legal avenues by which all of this can become possible are perfect but if you really want to stay then you shouldn't have a problem with it. I don't always enjoy having a chuck of my income taken out every month for taxes...But I do it because it's a pay to play system. I don't mind it because I know it supports the infrastructure of the nation(or at least I wish it would). What I refuse to accept is that there are people that get all the advantages given to me as a citizen of the United States yet DO NOT pay taxes. I say, if you're already here illegally but are willing to seek citizenship then let them stay and WORK TO EARN IT. They can pay taxes like the rest of us and be law abiding citizens like us. If not? Deport them. period | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On June 26 2012 08:32 nohbrows wrote: Why do a lot of people automatically assume that illegal immigrants only come from Mexico or any other South American or Central American countries? Why do people automatically assume that all illegal immigrants will be doing minimum wage jobs? Why do people assume that illegals have nothing to offer for this country, and instead of making them citizens and having them contribute to the supposed "tax burden," we deport them out of the country as if they are filth and trash? People automatically assume those things because they are largely true. Most illegal immigrants come from Mexico (over half!) and most do not have job skills which means they will be working for minimum wage (or less if they are taken advantage of!). There's a limit to how many poor and unskilled people the US economy can absorb at a time. There's a limit to how many students the taxpayers can subsidize. So, it is reasonable that we put enforceable limits on how many people can come in each year. | ||
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valium
United States251 Posts
On June 26 2012 08:04 HunterX11 wrote: If you are in Mexico and have no family or business ties to the U.S. it is simply not possible to immigrate legally. You might as well say, "If people don't like being poor, they should just win the lottery in their home country instead of immigrating to the U.S." since that is much more feasible and therefore practical advice. So they should break the law, cause problems for everyone (themselves included) because they want more money? If it is so bad that they need to flood into a different country why not try to improve their own? | ||
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fellcrow
United States288 Posts
On June 26 2012 08:53 nohbrows wrote: I mean...did you read the rest of the tl;dr? I was going to come up with an argument, then I realized how pointless it will be to argue with someone who thinks so simply and ignores how complicated of an issue illegal immigration is with a simple statement as "respect our laws." Edit: But I mean, come on, what are you going to do then? Go deport every single illegal immigrant in the United States and then send them back to a living hell after they have established a comfortable life here? Or at least one better than the one they left? Just because it is law doesn't make it ethically or morally right. And illegal immigration is not just a legal issue. It is a moral and ethical issue as well. Morals and ethics are semi irrelevant. Not everyone has the same morals and ethics. And in my opinion, government shouldn't be regulating morals/ethics. Regardless, we are all required to follow the same laws. So morals and ethics aside, we need to follow the laws of our government if we decide to live here, which is to come here legally. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On June 26 2012 08:53 nohbrows wrote: I mean...did you read the rest of the tl;dr? I was going to come up with an argument, then I realized how pointless it will be to argue with someone who thinks so simply and ignores how complicated of an issue illegal immigration is with a simple statement as "respect our laws." Edit: But I mean, come on, what are you going to do then? Go deport every single illegal immigrant in the United States and then send them back to a living hell after they have established a comfortable life here? Or at least one better than the one they left? Just because it is law doesn't make it ethically or morally right. And illegal immigration is not just a legal issue. It is a moral and ethical issue as well. So, every illegal immigrant is escaping a 'living hell' now? And none are abused once in the US because of their illegal status? | ||
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Smat
United States301 Posts
On June 26 2012 08:53 nohbrows wrote: I mean...did you read the rest of the tl;dr? I was going to come up with an argument, then I realized how pointless it will be to argue with someone who thinks so simply and ignores how complicated of an issue illegal immigration is with a simple statement as "respect our laws." Edit: But I mean, come on, what are you going to do then? Go deport every single illegal immigrant in the United States and then send them back to a living hell after they have established a comfortable life here? Or at least one better than the one they left? Just because it is law doesn't make it ethically or morally right. And illegal immigration is not just a legal issue. It is a moral and ethical issue as well. I supose you favor open US borders then correct? That's the only logical assumption from your whole "laws don't matter if dreams and aspirations are at stake!" | ||
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Josealtron
United States219 Posts
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Smat
United States301 Posts
On June 26 2012 10:09 Josealtron wrote: Lol @ all the people that are saying "they need to come here legally". The fact of the matter is, unless you have some sort of business connection(I even have family who can't get here legally, family connections don't always help) or some other reason that makes you "important", you're not getting here legally, especially if you're coming from Latin America. Period. I don't think many of the posters here understand just how broken our immigration system is. Illegal immigration wouldn't be a big issue if it were actually reasonably possible to get here legally. Why should it be so easy for anyone and everyone to immigrate to the US? | ||
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