On November 27 2014 14:51 miky_ardiente wrote: Every day that Peña Nieto doesnt resign he confirms that he doesnt really care about the peoples will, every day he doesnt resign he continues opressing us, he mocks of us, he travels on a billionare plane above all of the 60% percent of the population that lives in poverty, he is not doing anything right, he is selling our country to his own benefit, we dont want him, if there was any justice on this world he should be dead or at least in jail for his crimes.
Why do you want him to resign? I'm not saying he shouldn't, but why do you want him to resign? do you have someone in mind to replace him? maybe I'm just ignorant but the truth is, I do not believe anyone already involved in politics here in Mexico isn't corrupt or in bed with one cartel or another, what difference will it make if Peña Nieto resigns if he is replaced with another corrupt politician? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you shouldn't ask for Peña Nieto to resign but I don't think that's enough to bring any change even if he does resign.
They found the first grave in a thicket of spiny huisache trees clinging to the hillside outside the town of Iguala.
Under a pounding midday sun, about a dozen men and women watched as an older man plunged a pickaxe into the heavy soil. Some offered advice on where and how to dig; mostly they looked on in silence
When he turned up a human femur, Mayra Vergara turned her back and broke into silent tears. She had hoped that today she might find some clue to the fate of her brother Tomás, a taxi driver who was kidnapped in July 2012, never to be seen again. But whoever lay in the shallow grave, she said, they deserved more than this.
“Even if it isn’t my brother in there, it is still a person. A person who deserved a proper burial,” she said, her face contorted in anger and grief. “And the question is when? When are they going to do something for us?”
“In these hills there are probably hundreds of graves. In Mexico there are thousands.”
In the days and weeks after the students went missing, investigators found a series of mass graves just a few miles from the poverty-stricken outskirts of Iguala. Residents later told reporters how they had often seen convoys of gunmen – and municipal vehicles – heading up dirt tracks that lead to nowhere. They remembered the screams that sometimes pierced through the night.
Thirty-eight bodies have been removed from the mass graves, but DNA tests have shown that none is that of a missing student. So far, four have been identified, including a Ugandan priest who was reportedly killed after refusing to baptise a drug lord’s child.
The search for the students has since moved elsewhere, but over the past couple of weeks, relatives of “the other disappeared” began to get organised.
Already, data has been gathered on 200 cases. More are expected to come forward.
for example,, this problem started because of the 43 students who dissapeared (students who had kidnaped some buses, i must say). The local goverment (from the PRD), was involved with drugs and nacrotrafic, they told the police and other narcotrafics to dissapear them. Then, it went up to the governor of the state, which was forced to resing (he was also from the PRD).
Now theres also the problem that one of the biggest schools of the contry, the IPN, was going to be changed so that people with less than 8 (out of 10) of grades, would be "technicians" instead of engineers, along with other more strange changes. So the students kind of took possetion of the schools, to block it. And they manage it, in a very impressive non-political march, they manage to get what they wanted. But that was months ago, and they are still withouth classes, because the leaders of the movement, keep asking for more and more things, which are increasingly ridiculous. And i suspect it is strating to be a politics thing, because in the last talk the "students" had with the goverment, they started questioning about the 43 students who dissapeared, which doesn't make sense, don't get me wrong, that is terrible, but the meeting are about the future of the IPN, as a school and institution, there is a place to talk about that, and that wasn't the place, specially when they are talking to the guys responsable for education, not security.
So now, suddenly, a lot of people are asking the president to resing, for a conflict that he didn't started, and probably had very little to do with it, after all, he was from the oposing party (PRI).
But that doesn't make sense, and it makes me sad seeing people like sheeps saying "resing Peña Nieto" blabla, while no one is fighting for the things worth fighting for. what are we going to get if he resings? Nothing. But if we fight for better laws, and the much needed the anti corruption reform, along with other reforms to have better control of what happens in every state, and for ways to give people more power i think that would be better.
Sadly, a lot of people are being manipulated, and they don't even notice, specially the young. Every time i log into facebook, there are people making arguments against the goverment which are frankly, ridiculous. There is a need of change in mexico, but people aren't seeing the full picture, no-one's gonna fight for a change that doesn't give a real solution.
Mexico: eleven bodies found dumped in state where 43 students went missing
Eleven mutilated corpses, many of them decapitated, were found dumped by the roadside in southwest Mexico on Thursday in the same state where 43 trainee teachers were abducted and apparently massacred two months ago
...Many of the victims, who appeared to be in their 20s, had been decapitated or burned....
According to a state government official, a note was left near the bodies with a message addressed to the criminal group "Los Ardillos" - meaning The Squirrels - with the words "here's your trash." A Mexican police officer also said the bodies had high-caliber bullet wounds.
this reminds me that last week 11 students from the rioters were arrested and taken to a maximum security prison - i wonder if THESE are actually those....
...this state Guerrero has become worse than the former nazi concentration camps, where people were not guaranteed to survive the day i wonder if the entire Mexico is not actually the same and its hidden for the sake of tourism income / investors
MEXICO CITY, Nov 27 (Reuters) - Embattled President Enrique Pena Nieto on Thursday proposed simplifying Mexico's chaotic police structure and a new law to stop collusion between officials and gangs as he tried to defuse anger over the apparent massacre of 43 students in September.
Pena Nieto has been under growing pressure from protesters to end impunity and brutality by security forces since the trainee teachers were abducted by corrupt police in the southwestern city of Iguala on the night of Sept. 26.
The government says the students were murdered and their bodies incinerated after police handed them over to a drug gang.
"Mexico cannot continue like this," Pena Nieto said in a speech to an assembly of political leaders.
"After Iguala, Mexico has to change," he said, noting that the reforms aimed to create a new law against infiltration by organized crime and redefine powers in the penal system.
The president said he would send an initiative to Congress to unify multi-layered police forces in Mexico's states and had ordered a special security operation in the Southwest, large swathes of which are plagued by drug gangs.
Mexico has a plethora of police forces, as hundreds of municipalities, 31 states and the capital Mexico City each has its own. But poor training and salaries as low as 5,000 pesos ($370) per month encourage corruption.
Several of Pena Nieto's predecessors also undertook police reforms, but problems have persisted and infiltration by gangs is widespread. Some Mexican states who got rid of municipal forces remain wracked by violent crime.
Pena Nieto said the government would also launch a program to boost growth in economically backward and troubled areas of the country including the Southwest, ensuring they would get preferential financing conditions.
On November 28 2014 07:42 xtorn wrote: ...this state Guerrero has become worse than the former nazi concentration camps, where people were not guaranteed to survive the day i wonder if the entire Mexico is not actually the same and its hidden for the sake of tourism income / investors
I wasn't alive during that time and I do not live in Guerrero so I can't say for sure whether it is like nazi concentration camps but I don't think it's comparable, as long as you mind your own business and don't cause trouble those people tend to leave you alone and you can go about your life without that much worry... well... it depends where you live, I have heard some really horrifying stories about some small towns that are basically completely kidnapped, where thing like "Hey, clean up your daughter for me, I'm gonna come later for her" are somewhat common, but as far as I know the bigger cities like the capitals are more peaceful, but then again it depends on the area/state.
The place where I live is a small town but it is really close to a capital city and although you may hear from time to time that those people are around they rarely cause trouble, really isolated incidents, so if you happen to live in a place like this you can rest easy at night.
for example,, this problem started because of the 43 students who dissapeared (students who had kidnaped some buses, i must say). The local goverment (from the PRD), was involved with drugs and nacrotrafic, they told the police and other narcotrafics to dissapear them. Then, it went up to the governor of the state, which was forced to resing (he was also from the PRD).
Now theres also the problem that one of the biggest schools of the contry, the IPN, was going to be changed so that people with less than 8 (out of 10) of grades, would be "technicians" instead of engineers, along with other more strange changes. So the students kind of took possetion of the schools, to block it. And they manage it, in a very impressive non-political march, they manage to get what they wanted. But that was months ago, and they are still withouth classes, because the leaders of the movement, keep asking for more and more things, which are increasingly ridiculous. And i suspect it is strating to be a politics thing, because in the last talk the "students" had with the goverment, they started questioning about the 43 students who dissapeared, which doesn't make sense, don't get me wrong, that is terrible, but the meeting are about the future of the IPN, as a school and institution, there is a place to talk about that, and that wasn't the place, specially when they are talking to the guys responsable for education, not security.
So now, suddenly, a lot of people are asking the president to resing, for a conflict that he didn't started, and probably had very little to do with it, after all, he was from the oposing party (PRI).
But that doesn't make sense, and it makes me sad seeing people like sheeps saying "resing Peña Nieto" blabla, while no one is fighting for the things worth fighting for. what are we going to get if he resings? Nothing. But if we fight for better laws, and the much needed the anti corruption reform, along with other reforms to have better control of what happens in every state, and for ways to give people more power i think that would be better.
Sadly, a lot of people are being manipulated, and they don't even notice, specially the young. Every time i log into facebook, there are people making arguments against the goverment which are frankly, ridiculous. There is a need of change in mexico, but people aren't seeing the full picture, no-one's gonna fight for a change that doesn't give a real solution.
Thanks for posting! Love to have active people who are knowledgeable on it so forumers can get insight and have some discussion.
I do agree some of the demands made by young people these days seem romantic and farfetched (I was at Monterrey's march, and heard them first hand). People show a sort of aimless anger (which is probably what you're seeing on facebook, well intentioned but immature comments on how to fix things). This is due to us being historically uninformed and immature, which is clearly reflected in these naive proposals. We must understand, however, the truth these claims are based on. While their proposals and solutions might be deemed inappropriate, we are poking and probing the deep-rooted problems in our society. A mighty important step for any real change to happen.
This is the straw that broke the camel's back, and these problems can't be swept under the rug any longer. I, for one, welcome open discussion and outrage as a healthy sign of our improving awareness.
We have so much to do. ¿Do you think our anger is an impediment or a gift for renewing our strength in our struggles?
I intend to play my part by promoting critical thinking in my students. But first I must remove my own bias. I've always thought people who post on facebook over a martyr death to be a naive way of taking action .
On November 27 2014 14:51 miky_ardiente wrote: Every day that Peña Nieto doesnt resign he confirms that he doesnt really care about the peoples will, every day he doesnt resign he continues opressing us, he mocks of us, he travels on a billionare plane above all of the 60% percent of the population that lives in poverty, he is not doing anything right, he is selling our country to his own benefit, we dont want him, if there was any justice on this world he should be dead or at least in jail for his crimes.
Why do you want him to resign? I'm not saying he shouldn't, but why do you want him to resign? do you have someone in mind to replace him? maybe I'm just ignorant but the truth is, I do not believe anyone already involved in politics here in Mexico isn't corrupt or in bed with one cartel or another, what difference will it make if Peña Nieto resigns if he is replaced with another corrupt politician? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you shouldn't ask for Peña Nieto to resign but I don't think that's enough to bring any change even if he does resign.
when did i said we would let epn get replaced by another corrupted politician ? guys please stop assuming that people are just asking for him to resign without anything else as a followup. its plain obvious that his resigns means nothing if we dont fix the root problems, the directly one to this would be the way the parties (PRIANRD) rules us and how they dont allow a single honest man to arrive to an important charge.... Now, i get where the confusion is coming, people chating for his resign, but thats all what they are chanting, no one is taking a stand and actually calling out for a national strike (except of course for gerardo fernandez noroña group) or a more concrete action, detailed plan etc. But if u guys ask im sure u´ll cross with many that have some great ideas for all of our problems. i have some of my own but posting a giant wall of text just doesnt seem a practical way to share it, i´ll try to make a video and make it viral, this is the only solution i see for this misconception of that people are blindly asking for his resign, (which is not blind at all, any half brained dumb knows he was imposed on us, we all know it and yet dont do anything) yes of course you get the bandwagoners that are just screaming for the cause, but the solutions are there, we just have to unite.
for example,, this problem started because of the 43 students who dissapeared (students who had kidnaped some buses, i must say). The local goverment (from the PRD), was involved with drugs and nacrotrafic, they told the police and other narcotrafics to dissapear them. Then, it went up to the governor of the state, which was forced to resing (he was also from the PRD).
Now theres also the problem that one of the biggest schools of the contry, the IPN, was going to be changed so that people with less than 8 (out of 10) of grades, would be "technicians" instead of engineers, along with other more strange changes. So the students kind of took possetion of the schools, to block it. And they manage it, in a very impressive non-political march, they manage to get what they wanted. But that was months ago, and they are still withouth classes, because the leaders of the movement, keep asking for more and more things, which are increasingly ridiculous. And i suspect it is strating to be a politics thing, because in the last talk the "students" had with the goverment, they started questioning about the 43 students who dissapeared, which doesn't make sense, don't get me wrong, that is terrible, but the meeting are about the future of the IPN, as a school and institution, there is a place to talk about that, and that wasn't the place, specially when they are talking to the guys responsable for education, not security.
So now, suddenly, a lot of people are asking the president to resing, for a conflict that he didn't started, and probably had very little to do with it, after all, he was from the oposing party (PRI).
But that doesn't make sense, and it makes me sad seeing people like sheeps saying "resing Peña Nieto" blabla, while no one is fighting for the things worth fighting for. what are we going to get if he resings? Nothing. But if we fight for better laws, and the much needed the anti corruption reform, along with other reforms to have better control of what happens in every state, and for ways to give people more power i think that would be better.
Sadly, a lot of people are being manipulated, and they don't even notice, specially the young. Every time i log into facebook, there are people making arguments against the goverment which are frankly, ridiculous. There is a need of change in mexico, but people aren't seeing the full picture, no-one's gonna fight for a change that doesn't give a real solution.
Thanks for posting! Love to have active people who are knowledgeable on it so forumers can get insight and have some discussion.
I do agree some of the demands made by young people these days seem romantic and farfetched (I was at Monterrey's march, and heard them first hand). People show a sort of aimless anger (which is probably what you're seeing on facebook, well intentioned but immature comments on how to fix things). This is due to us being historically uninformed and immature, which is clearly reflected in these naive proposals. We must understand, however, the truth these claims are based on. While their proposals and solutions might be deemed inappropriate, we are poking and probing the deep-rooted problems in our society. A mighty important step for any real change to happen.
This is the straw that broke the camel's back, and these problems can't be swept under the rug any longer. I, for one, welcome open discussion and outrage as a healthy sign of our improving awareness.
We have so much to do. ¿Do you think our anger is an impediment or a gift for renewing our strength in our struggles?
I intend to play my part by promoting critical thinking in my students. But first I must remove my own bias. I've always thought people who post on facebook over a martyr death to be a naive way of taking action .
i wouldnt label asking for epn resing as romantic or farfetched, its our right and its right there on our constitution, if we cant make use of it then i ask: how free do we really are ?
yet i think u are describing the situation pretty accurate, thanks also to you for posting
regarding the fb posts, a naive action indeed, but at least it helps spread the word and create awereness on other people that might not be as conscious as we are, dont u agree ? to me its very clear that the opportunity is right there, we need to direct this anger/energy into something useful, something real
So now, suddenly, a lot of people are asking the president to resing, for a conflict that he didn't started, and probably had very little to do with it, after all, he was from the oposing party (PRI).
But that doesn't make sense, and it makes me sad seeing people like sheeps saying "resing Peña Nieto" blabla, while no one is fighting for the things worth fighting for. what are we going to get if he resings? Nothing. But if we fight for better laws, and the much needed the anti corruption reform, along with other reforms to have better control of what happens in every state, and for ways to give people more power i think that would be better.
Sadly, a lot of people are being manipulated, and they don't even notice, specially the young. Every time i log into facebook, there are people making arguments against the goverment which are frankly, ridiculous. There is a need of change in mexico, but people aren't seeing the full picture, no-one's gonna fight for a change that doesn't give a real solution.
you do know which was the party that made arrengements with them and let the cartels grow so strong pretty much since forever ?
Think for a sec what would it be like if we were to accomplish epn resign, the entire world would not believe it, hell even we wouldnt, thats why we gotta do it, we need to show them that we are sick of them, it would be the most powerful statement we could make, it would mark an after and before in our story, it would mean that finally our people is ready to take action and ownership on their future.
the anti corrupt reform made by the corrupted system itself.......
really ? thats like putting the fat kid that already eat 99 cakes to guard another cake
thats how they get rid of ur protest, they make a "reform" or a "pact" or something that fools u into think they have taken action, but oh surprise time passes and yet things dont change at all, if anything they steal more and more, no one really goes to jail with this "changes" and no one will, the goverment cant fight corruption because they are the corruption itself.
u nailed it on the next, control and people empowerment, we dont need the parties, we dont need governators, we need fully commited people that are willing to work for the country for the fare amount and nothing more. maybe more if they excel at it.
I'd recommending bringing in non-corrupt people to fix things. Just go outside the country to find the talent, it's very doable imho; most people just dislike doing that.
On November 29 2014 14:20 zlefin wrote: I'd recommending bringing in non-corrupt people to fix things. Just go outside the country to find the talent, it's very doable imho; most people just dislike doing that.
Thats impossible without a revolution. The cartels will not allow external leadership since they are sitting on a huge cash cow milked every single day - they profit from drugs, oil steal12ing, extortion, all these things bring profit on a daily basis, and the cherry on top, they are acting with impunity, which gives them total freedom to expand "business" as they wish. They control the local police, federal police, the army, everything.
Only the drugs bring them So they wont be convinced just with - Hey cabrones, can u plz leave my country yo. We need new authority and leaders - Claro mi amigo, we're packing, sorry for the trouble.
Looks like the president has decided yesterday to dissolve the municipal police, which is completely in the hands of cartels, and give authority to the federal police. But everyone is skeptical of the efficiency of this measure, since the federal police is also in the hands of cartels. It seems like he's doing some measures just to calm the protesters down, without actually doing anything truly useful.
Now this is interesting:
Over several decades, the cartels had bribed police commanders and top politicians; and often riddled with corruption, state authorities would not only fail to cooperate with other authorities in distinct federal levels, but would actively protect the cartels and their leaders.
Also, just to get a picture of how big the cash cow of the cartels is:
Analysts estimate that wholesale earnings from illicit drug sales range from $13.6 billion to $49.4 billion annually.
Source ----------------- Moreover, this is older but worth mentioning
Mexican Drug Cartels Join Forces with Italian Mafia to Supply Cocaine to Europe
A 10-year investigation by Italian authorities earlier this year revealed ties between Italian groups and Mexican drug traffickers to move shipments of cocaine across the Atlantic Ocean. ... "Over the last 20 years the Mexicans have really taken over," said Shannon O’Neil, a Douglas Dillon Fellow for Latin America Studies at the Council of Foreign Relations. "Instead of working for the Colombians, the Colombians are now working for the Mexicans." .... Also, with a kilogram of cocaine estimated at over $63,000 in Italy, compared to the average price of between $28,000 and $38,000 in New York, the cartels see Europe as a lucrative and untapped market.
On November 29 2014 13:14 miky_ardiente wrote: ... i have some of my own but posting a giant wall of text just doesnt seem a practical way to share it, i´ll try to make a video and make it viral, this is the only solution i see for this misconception of that people are blindly asking for his resign, (which is not blind at all, any half brained dumb knows he was imposed on us, we all know it and yet dont do anything) yes of course you get the bandwagoners that are just screaming for the cause, but the solutions are there, we just have to unite.
I know that you said that you will make a video, but I'm curios as what ideas you may have, I honestly can't think of anything that doesn't involve an immense bloodbath, I do not think EPN will resign for any reason, I think that even if the sky opens up and the arm of god comes down and points at him and tells him to resing, he still wouldn't do it, so I guess that if people actually managed to make him resign that would mean that they actually have the power to replace with someone that is not corrupt, but I don't see how to reach that place without an immense bloodbath, the other problem is that there is way too many people involved with cartels, sometimes and depending where you live it's hard to tell who is with them and who's not.
The Cartels have been working with Organized Crime in Europe, not just for markets in Italy but also in Northern Europe(methamphetamine's etc) that's not counting the exploding African market.
Everyone favors reform, but the time when you asked Germany to send over Bankers to help reform the financial sector and the British to come over and reform the Armed forces is long over. Privatization is major key in reducing graft, but also Government motives in doing such things as an Infrastructure Bank, revamping the Judicial System, raising the wage etc.
On November 29 2014 13:14 miky_ardiente wrote: ... i have some of my own but posting a giant wall of text just doesnt seem a practical way to share it, i´ll try to make a video and make it viral, this is the only solution i see for this misconception of that people are blindly asking for his resign, (which is not blind at all, any half brained dumb knows he was imposed on us, we all know it and yet dont do anything) yes of course you get the bandwagoners that are just screaming for the cause, but the solutions are there, we just have to unite.
I know that you said that you will make a video, but I'm curios as what ideas you may have, I honestly can't think of anything that doesn't involve an immense bloodbath, I do not think EPN will resign for any reason, I think that even if the sky opens up and the arm of god comes down and points at him and tells him to resing, he still wouldn't do it, so I guess that if people actually managed to make him resign that would mean that they actually have the power to replace with someone that is not corrupt, but I don't see how to reach that place without an immense bloodbath, the other problem is that there is way too many people involved with cartels, sometimes and depending where you live it's hard to tell who is with them and who's not.
Would you be willing to accept a bloodbath if it could defeat the cartels?
There is a bit of a problem with this alleged "bloodbath". Just because the mexican people can take a ride over the border to El Paso, and get a shitload of guns, doesn't necessarily give them more chances against the cartels... maybe some chances.
The cartels are ex-military, extremely heavily armed (with weapons that can pierce armor etc) and they are training new recruits in military warfare. At least the Zetas. And the reason why Zetas havent taken control of regions owned by the Sinaloa cartel yet, most probably is due to the fact that the Sinaloa is equally trained and armed.
Moreover: Mexican drug cartels increasingly hire US military servicemen as assassins
Mexican drug cartels are hiring US military personnel to carry out murders. In exchange for cash or drugs, some American servicemen are working as hit men or teaching gangsters their skills.
So, imagine the power and financing that the cartels now have, to be able to literally hire US military for their purposes. What can a handful of people do against that.
It's a lot more than a handful of people; at any rate, the question was whether people are willing to do such a trade (a question I'm quite unsure on), not about the implementation particulars and feasibility.
On November 30 2014 05:02 zlefin wrote: Would you be willing to accept a bloodbath if it could defeat the cartels?
No, because I don't think we can realistically win against all the cartels at the same time, and if by some miracle we were to defeat one while fighting them one by one, it would only give more power to one cartel or another, only the government could possibly wage that war using the army, the general public can't possibly fight against the cartels and the government, which are basically the same thing.
And as I said, there are too many people involved with cartels and is hard to tell them apart, they don't all wear uniform, how could we be sure that the people on top leading the charge aren't from another cartel looking for more power.
Mexican students seize buses, force drivers to drive them to protests
“The police ... are not taking action at this moment to avoid giving the appearance of acts of repression,” said Guerrero state prosecutors’ spokesman Jorge Valdez. “It is the concept of not trying to put out a fire by pouring more gasoline on it.”
EPT
