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On March 25 2010 23:23 Cloud wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 20:39 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On March 25 2010 20:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 25 2010 20:21 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On March 25 2010 16:13 baal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2010 15:42 SerpentFlame wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 15:18 baal wrote: when the PAN took over they started the Pacific cartel to balance the forces.
The army is absolutely useless, the generals are bough by the cartels and they stage some shows for you to make you believe in this illusion of war.
Only a retard would agree that these constant massacres are a sacrifice that justifies the control of the government over what substances we put in our god damn body.
Some of them may be bought off but that hardly generalizes. Source for your full claim please. wait.. did you just ask me for sources about generals being corrupt and being bough by the cartel? yea, he did - either there is proof of what you say or it is a rumor, almost like a conspiracy theory No it's a fact, and everybody knows it. emphasis mine i don't know it, do you have some source, references, or proof in general for me to look at? Are you serious? You just have to watch the news and connect the dots. Don't come here without being knowledgeable about mexican current events, and then try to disguise your laziness for looking for facts with some stupid demand about needing proof.
I don't give a shit about Mexico or Mexican current events, I don't personally want proof. I want people on TL to stop using shit like "No it's a fact, and everybody knows it." to back their argument against people who are simply asking for a source to a generic blanket statement.
Feel free to read what you quote next time.
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Well, TL is not Wikipedia. You dont need to verify everything you post, ofc. it helps, but I love to hear about people opinions and impressions on things which I wouldnt get if quotes and sources were needed.
F.ex. I could tell you a great many interesting things on the Icelandic economic crash, insider stuff, which would be hard for me to give sources and verify et.c. and you´d just have to take my word for it. (or not..)
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On March 26 2010 01:27 Froleson wrote:
Well, TL is not Wikipedia. You dont need to verify everything you post, ofc. it helps, but I love to hear about people opinions and impressions on things which I wouldnt get if quotes and sources were needed.
No, but when someone asks for a source, it's not necessary to act like he's a moron.
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That's definitely intriguing....I didn't know that this sort of thing happened in Mexico. Sure, in Brazil or Venezuela or lower South American countries, but not Mexico.
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You don't need to provide sources for things that are common knowledge, even if some stupid people don't know it.
For once I agree with Baal here, (as well as Cloud)
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On March 26 2010 05:04 ShaperofDreams wrote:
You don't need to provide sources for things that are common knowledge, even if some stupid people don't know it.
I give up, this place has gone down the shitter with you new kids.
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Sanya12364 Posts
hey baal. Go easy on me.
I just wanted to express a limited amount of skepticism for the Drug War. I don't live in Mexico, and I don't make a definitely argument for exactly how bad or good the war is going. I don't know if the Federales are all good guys, but I believe they have historically been the primary vehicle for fighting the drug war. Lack of public confidence in them should reflect negatively on the overall drug war.
As for my skepticism of the latest measures, you might have noticed:
1. I pointed out that the drug was in many cases the imposition of martial law, an extraordinary "peace time" measure.
2. Federales sometimes has even worse public support than violent cartels.
3. The president is playing a dangerous game of attrition in fighting the drug war.
If the Federales poses such dangers as you say so, it's easy to understand how the public at large would view these government agents of the drug war as merely yet another violent gang roaming the streets and judge accordingly.
As for pervasive corruption, that is cultural knowledge because when corruption is everywhere it becomes a natural part of living and doing business. It's not news. It's just how society works. If bribing your policeman is customary practice, you can bet that bigger public officials are just as much for sale.
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Hey Baal, I understand your pain.
I live in Rio and its the same, here in Brazil the main guys making a buck from the drug/guns trade is the politician, many of them have been elected with durty drug money to protect their interests.
While innocents keep dying, the politicians keep spilling out the bullshit of war on drugs and whatnot, when in reality, they dont want nothing to change, everything is exacly as they want it to be.
ignorant people elect gangsters that dont invest in education and dont legalize drugs, so they can basically campaign on the fact that they will fight the gangs, except they have nothing to fear, because they are the political arms of the gangs, and its all a theather.
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So should i be worried because i live on the border of Mexico?
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On March 26 2010 06:15 The_Voidless wrote:
So should i be worried because i live on the border of Mexico?
Nop, the situation is not bad lol media tends to exagerate stuff.... I know trust me
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Mexico1178 Posts
i mean, its an existent problem, but is not as "BAD" media tends to exagerate, but its good to know how stuff works.. i mean, if you want to visit México feel free to do it, you will encounter a great culture and a lof of sights worth seeing, great food, good people, etc.
Still, dont try your luck going out to places you dont know, try to have at least someone giving you tips about what to do and what to do not. i mean, just common sense
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On March 25 2010 22:48 Warrior Madness wrote:
Wow, the Los Zetas make the Yakuza look like amateurs. Apparently the leader was in an elite special forces DEDICATED to fighting drug cartels, and a druglord recruited him and 30 other elite assassins/special forces soldiers and formed the gang.
The Yakuza are way bigger, actually "Los Zetas" is a small group that went rouge on the Gulf Cartel, so its a relatively mall organization but a very violent one.
Actually the name itself is just used to manipulate people into mass fear, for example not long ago there was this ridiculous fake email that said that Los Zetas went into clubs, raped girls, beheaded them and carved things in their faces lol, that was obviously not true and never happened it was just designed to divert the attention to the real issues.
And yes, the high commanders in any drug cartels are usually ex-soldiers and ex-police.
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On March 25 2010 23:05 Froleson wrote:
So.. baal, I´m interested in hearing your ideas on improving Mexico´s general well-being, reduction in crime, poverty et.c.
For one has NAFTA helped?
Sadly there are no magical fixes for this because the corruption runs too deep so people with good morals wont make it far in our government ladder, and if they somehow manage to do it they will be assassinated.
Its the same reason why monetary aid to Africa has been absolutely useless and its because a country is just a reflection of its society so there are no fast track solutions for things, first the country as a society must evolve for its country to improve and there is no way around it.
So the solution to this problem is nothing more than awareness, social conscience that will eventually lead to anger and activist towards the government, so they slowly cant get away with so much shit and they start doing a better job.
If you want to pinpoint more like policy changes that would help Mexico besides that they wont happen until we as a society evolve well then Mexico must take a protectionist approach in trade among other policies of the same pseudo-socialist philosophy but that wont ever happen unless an iron fist dictator manages to win, but that also wont happen because it would go against the interests of the united states and they wont let another Venezuela happen (not that i think Chavez is remotely good).
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On March 26 2010 05:30 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2010 05:04 ShaperofDreams wrote:
You don't need to provide sources for things that are common knowledge, even if some stupid people don't know it.
I give up, this place has gone down the shitter with you new kids.
Except that it hasn't, and you're just being bitter about your whole point being stupid.
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On March 26 2010 05:33 TanGeng wrote:
hey baal. Go easy on me.
I just wanted to express a limited amount of skepticism for the Drug War. I don't live in Mexico, and I don't make a definitely argument for exactly how bad or good the war is going. I don't know if the Federales are all good guys, but I believe they have historically been the primary vehicle for fighting the drug war. Lack of public confidence in them should reflect negatively on the overall drug war.
As for my skepticism of the latest measures, you might have noticed:
1. I pointed out that the drug was in many cases the imposition of martial law, an extraordinary "peace time" measure.
2. Federales sometimes has even worse public support than violent cartels.
3. The president is playing a dangerous game of attrition in fighting the drug war.
If the Federales poses such dangers as you say so, it's easy to understand how the public at large would view these government agents of the drug war as merely yet another violent gang roaming the streets and judge accordingly.
As for pervasive corruption, that is cultural knowledge because when corruption is everywhere it becomes a natural part of living and doing business. It's not news. It's just how society works. If bribing your policeman is customary practice, you can bet that bigger public officials are just as much for sale.
1.- Martial Law is no solution, stripping the liberties of the citizens to fight a war that is not being fought cannot bring anything positive.
2.- They do because the federales are also kidnappers, thieves and murderers, they are not the good guys, they cartels are mostly formed by ex or current federales.
3.- The president isnt fighting any war, the party of the current president founded the Pacific Cartel, the president is just reaping profits.
Yes those 2 last paragraphs are correct, i dont know a single poiceman who wouldnt take a bribe, that does not exist in Mexico and the system is built that way, let me explain.
A while ago we had a Major that there was not going to be traffic tickets!, only warnings, well it was fucking utopic!, nobody broke any more or less traffic laws believe me, but you didnt have to bribe those fucking pigs, sadly the new Major overturned that because obviously the police either pressured or bought for that since it is a great it not most of its income.
And now you may ask, "but if you are against it why give bribes? you are part of it!" well not long ago a new traffic law passed in my state, that for every traffic fine, the police could impound your car as a guarantee that you will pay the fine.... what?!?!?!
So basically now you either bribe them, or they will take your car, impound it, and you will have to get somebody to drive you around town paying your fine, then releasing your car and pretty much loose many hours so they make it pretty difficult to not play ball.
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On March 26 2010 05:46 D10 wrote:
Hey Baal, I understand your pain.
I live in Rio and its the same, here in Brazil the main guys making a buck from the drug/guns trade is the politician, many of them have been elected with durty drug money to protect their interests.
While innocents keep dying, the politicians keep spilling out the bullshit of war on drugs and whatnot, when in reality, they dont want nothing to change, everything is exacly as they want it to be.
ignorant people elect gangsters that dont invest in education and dont legalize drugs, so they can basically campaign on the fact that they will fight the gangs, except they have nothing to fear, because they are the political arms of the gangs, and its all a theather.
i thought Lula was making big improvements in brazil tho, isnt it true?
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On March 26 2010 00:03 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 23:23 Cloud wrote:On March 25 2010 20:39 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On March 25 2010 20:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 25 2010 20:21 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On March 25 2010 16:13 baal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2010 15:42 SerpentFlame wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 15:18 baal wrote: when the PAN took over they started the Pacific cartel to balance the forces.
The army is absolutely useless, the generals are bough by the cartels and they stage some shows for you to make you believe in this illusion of war.
Only a retard would agree that these constant massacres are a sacrifice that justifies the control of the government over what substances we put in our god damn body.
Some of them may be bought off but that hardly generalizes. Source for your full claim please. wait.. did you just ask me for sources about generals being corrupt and being bough by the cartel? yea, he did - either there is proof of what you say or it is a rumor, almost like a conspiracy theory No it's a fact, and everybody knows it. emphasis mine i don't know it, do you have some source, references, or proof in general for me to look at? Are you serious? You just have to watch the news and connect the dots. Don't come here without being knowledgeable about mexican current events, and then try to disguise your laziness for looking for facts with some stupid demand about needing proof. I don't give a shit about Mexico or Mexican current events, I don't personally want proof. I want people on TL to stop using shit like "No it's a fact, and everybody knows it." to back their argument against people who are simply asking for a source to a generic blanket statement. Feel free to read what you quote next time.
Holy god please shut up. You don`t even half to be half familiar with recent Central and South American history to know that these things are real. If you don`t give a shit about Mexico then just shut it.
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On March 25 2010 23:36 Cloud wrote:
No, it's not a good place. But I doubt it's much warmer anywhere else in the planet.
I don't agree with you. It has a lot of problems but when I was backpacking around for a month almost all i saw was social warm people, great music, culture and wonderful nature.
Sure there are some people who tries to screw you over but its not that bad (try traveling India ) and I saw very little violence at all. But I kept away from the north so maybe thats why.
I though that Zacatecas Oaxaca Puerto Escondido and San Cristobal de las casas was awsome places and If Mexico haven't become much much worse the last 2 years I would recomend people with an open mind to go there.
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On March 26 2010 07:31 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2010 05:46 D10 wrote:
Hey Baal, I understand your pain.
I live in Rio and its the same, here in Brazil the main guys making a buck from the drug/guns trade is the politician, many of them have been elected with durty drug money to protect their interests.
While innocents keep dying, the politicians keep spilling out the bullshit of war on drugs and whatnot, when in reality, they dont want nothing to change, everything is exacly as they want it to be.
ignorant people elect gangsters that dont invest in education and dont legalize drugs, so they can basically campaign on the fact that they will fight the gangs, except they have nothing to fear, because they are the political arms of the gangs, and its all a theather. i thought Lula was making big improvements in brazil tho, isnt it true?
Economically, a lot, and everything else is slowly catching up...
very very slowly.
And in order to make this much advances, he also had to make deals with all sorts of corruption, so the same guys who were making a profit with the misery of Brazilians, are now making a profit with our prosperity.
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@Baal
Alright, well first off just because you have a ton of posts doesn't mean those posts aren't full of shit.
Also I don't quite understand how saying "that it's an insult to the people who have died" ties in to a redneck argument about the war in Iraq when I was referring to those who say that the destruction of the twin towers was an inside job by the U.S. government (please read the post).
Also I don't deny that there is corruption within Mexico but there are measures being taken against it like never before seen( http://www.javno.com/en-world/mexico-drug-war-hindered-by-deep-police-corruption/207696). Every week there's a news report on some corrupt cop or cartel leader that gets thrown in the can and that's a FACT. President Calderon also initiated a program to inject trained "spies" to detect corruption within the Mexican police which has been extremely effective.
"So let me open your eyes here, anyone who believes the government is in a real war against the cartels is a naive child with no idea of what he is talking about." Ok apart from this extremely offensive and not true, this statement is what gave me the vibe that you didn't think anything could be done because it's the public Vs. the government. Also could you elaborate on PAN and the cartels on the pacific.
Alright you told me I failed to have a grasp on reality yet you said that the situation is going to be fixed by Mexican society being aware and angry at the cartels. Oh that's great, let's just all be angry at the cartels I'm sure that's gonna make them feel bad about themselves and have them stop when they're making over 300 billion a year. Why don't you go tell Americans that the best way to defeat terrorism is to be angry at the terrorists, I'm sure they'll receive you with arms wide open. The only way to defeat this is with Calderon's current strategy and sure it's gonna be hard to defeat 70 years of PRI. (oh and if our government is really that corrupt do you think PAN would have ever been elected in the first place??? Let me help you out, NO!)
Also I sense quite a bit of hate from you towards the world, you're scolding the Scandinavian for asking questions and you're calling the Americans dumb. I don't know about the rest of team liquid but I don't think that 's ok and also people wanting sources is not a bad thing and is not a sign of ignorance. It's a sign of wisdom, analytical mind and a good sense of logic.
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EPT
