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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On March 11 2010 08:45 JohnColtrane wrote: tortoise are pimps, should i check out steve reich? If you like Tortoise, then yes, most definitely. You'll hear some pretty blatant Steve Reich influences in some of the tracks from TNT. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On March 11 2010 08:59 koreasilver wrote: Art music is definitely not finding itself distanced from the general public. Firstly, we should put a line between people that actually listen to music as more than just a simple arbitrary pleasure, but as an intellectual work. You can't expect everyone to like music the way that aficionados do, and obviously these people that just hear music aren't going to have a deep interest in music. If we take away these people, then it's pretty clear that "art music" is still extremely vibrant. It's just that composers that have been trained classically aren't the only ones that are taking music seriously with fully intended deepness anymore. Pop music is a part of the "people's music", and trying to completely decry pop music is just trite rhetoric from an elitist. And Mozart was pretty much a "pop star" at his time. Mozart was not disconnected to the population, and at those times the better classical musicians and composers were very well known and quite popular, and this still continues albeit to a lesser level. Art music is not distanced from the public? What world are you living in? Knowing who Beethoven is does not mean you are familiar with art music; I'm sure many people (in America) can hum or rap a few phrases from Kanye West or sing a few lines from Taylor Swift. These people can probably hum "da da da dum" from the Fifth, but do they know who Messiaen, Ligeti, or Boulez are? Is this: "familiar" to the general public? The general mass of Beethoven's day were certainly more familiar with his music than today's mass are familiar with contemporary classical music. And no, Mozart and Beethoven were definitely not pop stars. That is a history misconception popularized in part thanks to films such as Amadeus. Again, the 19th century audience was certainly more familiar as a whole with art music than we are today, but what is thought of today as "classical music" was basically limited to the nobility and the aristocracy - to "high society," if you will. Steve Reich does not, despite what he may think, compose pop music, no more than Schubert or Schumann did. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On March 11 2010 09:00 Simplistik wrote: It's not about what they should do or what they should not do. Orchestras are businesses that sell products in order to make a profit. If customers stop attending their concerts then orchestras will try to change their repertoire. If that doesn't work then they will close. As far as I can tell many long standing orchestras are doing well. There's no reason to believe that they will die out soon. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/arts/music/20orchestra.html http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/arts/82535207.html Two of America's "Big Five" orchestras are still reeling from recent setbacks. The Philadelphia Orchestra is still in disarray and struggles to sell tickets. Many NY Philharmonic concerts I go to see columns of empty seats. This is precisely why this debate is coming up now, the fact that they aren't doing as well as they would hope is what's driving this schism between appealing to "populism" vs. maintaining "elitism." | ||
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
Orchestras have to be funded. There aren't many "shoulds" for what they should do imo, except that if they want to continue to exist they should do things that will generate enough money for them to operate. If they have to do more poppy things to continue I'm sure they will. In our lifetime we'll probably see a fair amount of orchestras fail and a fair amount turn to performing mostly popular stuff like soundtracks and videogame music and pop song arrangements. Over time genres and styles of music fade away. Western Classical has been around for a long time, I think it is absurd to think it will exist in a widespread fashion for ever and ever. Hell, my favorite composer is von Bingen. You know how hard it is to see her stuff performed? If you like live classical, or any sort of art music for that matter, live in a big city and support what you like by seeing it when you can. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
1. Completely gloss over my explanation that my definition of "general public" does not include those that do not have an real interest in music. 2. Completely misread the quote from Steve Reich. Steve Reich did not ever say that he and other composers wrote pop music. What the fuck are you on about. He only said that the distance between popular music and classical music are artificial, and propagated by misguided elitists such as yourself. And of course classical music doesn't have as much as a stronghold over music as a whole anymore compared to before. In the Americas the evolution of Jazz was much more of an interest to the people, and at the time Jazz was evolving in far more interesting ways that classical music was. Also, America didn't have any established classical traditions compared to the Europeans that had distinct characteristic differences amongst the established schools, and with the development of audio devices, people's music spread far more easily and gained much more exposure, and it became easier for the common person to purchase instruments, etc. etc. etc. Comparing the day of now back to the days before the industrial revolution and the World Wars is just stupid. And how was Mozart not a "popular star"? He was by far the most well known composer of his time and composers of his time were far more well known in the public than now as you yourself has said. He was the most well known musician in the entirety of Europe and you're trying to say that he was not a pop star? | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
Regarding the topic itself: I feel that rather than anything else, the way people are raised in modern times -- in school and in the house -- have negatively affected their appreciation for the arts. I do not recall, for instance, in 10+ years of American primary education, being engaged meanignfully (if at all) to the fine arts, whether musical or amusical. I was fortunately exposed to music in my household and pursued it individually afterwards. For most others, this distinct "emptiness" is naturally goign to be filled with the stuff on the air and the tube -- that is, popular music and culture of not much artistic merit. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On March 11 2010 09:19 koreasilver wrote: So you: 1. Completely gloss over my explanation that my definition of "general public" does not include those that do not have an real interest in music. 2. Completely misread the quote from Steve Reich. Steve Reich did not ever say that he and other composers wrote pop music. What the fuck are you on about. He only said that the distance between popular music and classical music are artificial, and propagated by misguided elitists such as yourself. And of course classical music doesn't have as much as a stronghold over music as a whole anymore compared to before. In the Americas the evolution of Jazz was much more of an interest to the people, and at the time Jazz was evolving in far more interesting ways that classical music was. Also, America didn't have any established classical traditions compared to the Europeans that had distinct characteristic differences amongst the established schools, and with the development of audio devices, people's music spread far more easily and gained much more exposure, and it became easier for the common person to purchase instruments, etc. etc. etc. Comparing the day of now back to the days before the industrial revolution and the World Wars is just stupid. And how was Mozart not a "popular star"? He was by far the most well known composer of his time and composers of his time were far more well known in the public than now as you yourself has said. He was the most well known musician in the entirety of Europe and you're trying to say that he was not a pop star? Isn't the general public, by definition, people who don't possessed a specialized or vested interest/knowledge in the subject matter? And the distinction between art music and popular music is very real. It is not being elitist to say that a heavier emphasis is placed on the form and structure of a piece of art music compared to a pop song. The distinction is not clear cut, but it is definitely not artificial. Again, you say that there is no difference, while continue to throw around the term "classical music." What do you mean by classical music then? All music? Music composed by a certain set of people? Or what? How do -you- define classical music? And because they are more well known than they are today doesn't mean that they were "pop stars." The term "pop star" today means someone like, say, Michael Jackson. Beethoven and Mozart certainly did not achieve the fame that Michael Jackson did, and composers celebrated today as timeless masters such as Schubert and Vivaldi died in abject poverty, or lived their life out in relative obscurity. On March 11 2010 09:21 phosphorylation wrote: Good topic, but I really need to point out that 4'33" is not atonal. Save the term for when the music distinctively does not contain a harmonic center. 4'33" doesn't either, but it doens't contain.. anyhting. I tired to note that the term "atonality" is broad enough that anything who is non-tonal can be said to fall within that label. Certainly, that's what the word means - non tonal, and 4'33" is not tonal, even if it is just by merit of it not being...anything =P | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
http://www.stockhausen.org/ksadvice.html start reading from: "can we talk about the music we sent you? It was very good of you to listen to it. I wonder if you could give some advice to these musicians." | ||
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TheMusiC
United States1054 Posts
say what you want about leonard bernstein as a conductor, but he was one of the most important figures in american (and "classical") music because of what he did to try to bridge the gap between "mainstream" and "classical" music. his lectures on omnibus and the young people's concerts were broadcast publicly and nation-wide, and, most importantly, when you watched them (even as a casual viewer who knew nothing about classical music) there was no air of the elitism or snobbery that the majority of people typically associate classical music with today. and that, i feel, is the way it should be approached if we ever want to see classical music accepted in our modern culture, if we ever want to see our concert halls fill for orchestras in the same way we see arenas fill for artists like taylor swift and jay-z. i read a quote out of an article a few weeks ago that said something like this about bernstein when he lectured: he spoke as if to say, "i know you don't like this music and i know you don't care about it, but i love this music and i'm going to show you why you should too." and he was incredibly persuasive. unfortunately, after the show ended no one went along to continue his work, and thus we are where we are today. this also is ignoring the distinction between mainstream music that is just listened to casually for pleasure and classical music where you actually have to engage your brain to fully enjoy it (or to enjoy it at all -- this doesn't pertain exclusively to classical music either). in a lot of ways it's like the difference between reading an issue of maxim and reading dostoyevsky. there's nothing wrong with either, but they serve two completely different purposes, which is similar to the schism you have today between pop music and classical music. one last thing: it is not on the general public to try to appreciate and embrace something that they don't want to (or don't care for), i.e. classical music; this is simply how society moves (and when you think about it, it's quite darwinian). rather, it is on the dying form to try to show the public that it has the quality to appeal to the masses. just my two cents. | ||
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
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TheMusiC
United States1054 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
I didn't call you an elitist for saying that there's a difference between intellectual music and pop music. I called you an elitist because you are so ingrained upon this idea that composers and classical musicians should keep a distance from soundtracks (mainstream culture) to keep their integrity. I have never said that there is no difference, once again demonstrating your complete inability to actually read; my entire point throughout this thread is that classical music is not a tradition that is completely removed from popular music, and it has been so for most of Western classical music history. | ||
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On March 11 2010 09:30 phosphorylation wrote: And for those struggling to define art music vs popular music: read Stockhausen (a very good contemporary composer)'s response to popular music of his time. It's very very interesting and illuminating on the divide between art and popular music -- in approach and essence. http://www.stockhausen.org/ksadvice.html start reading from: "can we talk about the music we sent you? It was very good of you to listen to it. I wonder if you could give some advice to these musicians." That was a very interesting interview. It is evident that composers would, of course, have differing opinions on how the pieces should "work," so to speak (just look at the War of the Romantics! Brahms, Schumann, Liszt, Mendelssohn, and Wagner were at each other's throats, and yet they're still all considered canonical masters today!). Though it is probably futile, one cannot help but try to crystal ball 50, 100, 200 years from now to see what music from today survives and are canonized. Often, there is a call for a stronger nurturing of modern composers, both classical and popular, as opposed to riding on the 19th century masters. Yet history has shown that contemporary success and lasting legacy seem to have a tenuous connection at best. Does this perhaps mean that musicians should simply try to survive as best they can in today's world and let history be the judge of the merit of their work? | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
On March 11 2010 09:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:And the distinction between art music and popular music is very real. It is not being elitist to say that a heavier emphasis is placed on the form and structure of a piece of art music compared to a pop song. The distinction is not clear cut, but it is definitely not artificial. Again, you say that there is no difference, while continue to throw around the term "classical music." What do you mean by classical music then? All music? Music composed by a certain set of people? Or what? How do -you- define classical music? Classical music is genre of music like any other. Its defined by the instruments used, composition styles, etc (Im not good at music terminology in english but you get the point maybe). Or would you say any song with heavy emphasis on the form and structure is classical music? Maybe classical pieces are more intricately composed on average but that doesnt have anything to do with defining the term. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27157 Posts
On March 11 2010 09:19 koreasilver wrote: So you: 1. Completely gloss over my explanation that my definition of "general public" does not include those that do not have an real interest in music... It is hard to take your explinations seriously when your previous post consisted of all caps yelling and cursing. MANY MANY MANY PEOPLE AND TONS OF CLASSICAL MUSICIANS AND THE COMPOSERS THAT ARE STILL EXTREMELY RELEVANT TO NOT ONLY CLASSICAL MUSIC BUT ALSO THE MUSIC OF THE GENERAL POPULATION EVERYWHERE. What the fuck. Manner up if you want to be taken seriously. You always post so angrily, it is disconcerting. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
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