EPTNow we are weaker than before and the next one will fall soon, i hope the politicians dont abuse it to replace the countries constitutions with some EU crap
The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 92
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
Now we are weaker than before and the next one will fall soon, i hope the politicians dont abuse it to replace the countries constitutions with some EU crap | ||
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Bahamut1337
Ghana205 Posts
On July 21 2012 04:41 WhiteDog wrote: This post is so full of pro northern EU bullshit it's surprising. Like Germany has a higher rate of savings than other european countries... that Germany will "carry" the debt of the whole euro zone, or that Germany is doing "everything right", what the. Germany has a good fiscall policy, much unlike Socialist Utopia France. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Off course they will abuse the financial crisis at one point to make new laws and rules wich the citizens would never have accepted otherwise. I would almost say:thats the point of it all. Make yourself no illusions about this. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
FRANKFURT, Germany -- Europe is on the brink again. The region's debt crisis flared on Monday as fears intensified that Spain would be next in line for a government bailout. A recession is deepening in Spain, the fourth-largest economy that uses the euro currency, and a growing number of its regional governments are seeking financial lifelines to make ends meet. The interest rate on Spanish government bonds soared in a sign of waning market confidence in the country's ability to pay off its debts. The prospect of bailing out Spain is worrisome for Europe because the potential cost far exceeds what's available in existing emergency funds. Financial markets are also growing uneasy about Italy, another major European economy with large debts and a feeble economy. Stocks fell sharply across Europe and around the world. Germany's DAX plunged 3.18 percent. Britain's FTSE dropped 2 percent and France's CAC 40 fell 2.89 percent. In midday trading on Wall Street, the Dow Jones industrial average was down 1.35 percent. The euro slipped just below $1.21 against the dollar, its lowest reading since June 2010. The interest rate on its 10-year bond hit 7.56 percent in the morning, its highest level since Spain joined the euro in 1999. Concern over Spain increased Monday after the country's central bank said the economy shrank by 0.4 percent during the second quarter, compared with the previous three months. The government predicts the economy won't return to growth until 2014 as new austerity measures hurt consumers and businesses. On top of that, Spain is facing new costs as a growing number of regional governments ask federal authorities for assistance. The eastern region of Valencia revealed Friday it would need a bailout from the central Madrid government. Over the weekend, the southern region of Murcia said it may also need help. Source | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22051 Posts
ah who am i kidding. Massive bailout for spain. And again in 2 months. and again. and then we discover we have to let them go anyway.... | ||
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FallenStar
Spain118 Posts
And if Spain, instead, leaves the euro, our currency will devaluate and we will be broke, not being able to pay our debts and having to face a hyperinflation situation. The only way will be not letting us the money and wait 'till we are recovered, but I'm sure that's just too risky. Not an expert, that's why I think it's the worst idea ever had :D | ||
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MisterFox
France5 Posts
On July 24 2012 02:47 Bahamut1337 wrote: Germany has a good fiscall policy, much unlike Socialist Utopia France. You must inquire about new laws before talking.. And Sarkozy's decisions didn't work at all, maybe it is a good idea to search a new way to get out of the crisis.. | ||
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Domus
510 Posts
On July 24 2012 17:36 FallenStar wrote: I'm not so sure about Europe doing a full bail out to Spain, it's just too much money, and if they do, we won't be able to return it, then the taxpayers will pay it. And if Spain, instead, leaves the euro, our currency will devaluate and we will be broke, not being able to pay our debts and having to face a hyperinflation situation. The only way will be not letting us the money and wait 'till we are recovered, but I'm sure that's just too risky. Not an expert, that's why I think it's the worst idea ever had :D This is not really the case though. The markets are pretty much screwing over the southern countries. If Spain would be able to loan at reasonabe rates (say 2.5%), then Spain could carry 3 times the debt, compared to 7.5%. I think Spain and Italy are completely different case compared to Greece, since they have always been honest about their expenses and have done a lot already to get their expenses in check, and the markets just refuse to break the cycle. The rich EU countries can save Spain easily, but are just being stubborn about it because they can't sell it to their citizens. Greece is a different case, much more problematic than any other country (not shown to be trustworthy, many delays, lies, corruption). But I think that in the case of Spain the EU countries will need to make a choice, either really support Spain with much more aid that will pretty much cover any situation, so there is real trust in the markets, or just stop the Euro experiment. I think the current approach of giving just enough to keep the patient alive, but not enough to let the patient recover will turn out disastrous for every country in the EU. | ||
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FallenStar
Spain118 Posts
Official information denies this, so it's surely just speculation. Italy wasn't honest, and Spain's main goverment was, but not its provincies. The European rescuing fund (don't know how it is called) has 440bn euros, and if The Guardian is right, that's more than enough to bail out us, but if that happens, Italy could also need it (am I wrong?) I've heard rumors about Greece paying salaries and others with dracmas, need confirmation. And about the markets, Spain has banned short-selling of shares for 3 months, but even then, I think we're screwed, and our politicians are really scared. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18950896 Oh I'm really sorry about posting this much, don't know if I shouldn't do it because it's BM or something or doesn't matter, so tell me please :D | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22051 Posts
But they denied basicly everything that has happend since this crisis started. Ive come to the point where the begger on the streetcorner has become more reliable then national/IMF news cause they will say anything to let the general public believe its all fine. | ||
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Soyemia
Finland12 Posts
I voted for a pro-bailout country to save European integration and euro, as I think they are valuable and worth keeping, but the more I see of this crisis my mind starts to turn. We're taking massive risks to supportcountries which clearly are not really prepared to do anything. Italy isn't doing any cuts really, less compared to their size than we're right now. Spanish people are all rioting when they do less cuts that they should, and burn Finnish and German flags and blame us for their problems! Now we should bail them and pay all their debt away. Spain called Finland's demand for collateral "humiliation", it's quite insulting to the Finnish people. We're cutting right now aswell and as much as you are compared to budget. The way I see is let the South fall, as many Finns and even leading politicians and thinkers are saying this humiliation of Finland and Finnish people must stop, right now. I'd be willing to bail out countries if they actually showed any respect. They don't and their people don't either. We didn't get any help when we were in trouble in the 90s, we didn't make anyone pay for our failure. I was a child then, our classes had 40 pupils when I was 7... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_recession_in_Finland You think 26% unemploymed is bad - it is not. You think your suffering is heavy http://www.terveyskirjasto.fi/terveyskirjasto/tk.koti?p_artikkeli=suo00029, see the cuicide graph. I understand it's tough and it's not very cool to go through all that shit, but it definetly ain't our responsibility to bail you. Had you done what was needed in 2008 we wouldn't be here. You saw this coming and voted to continue it. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22051 Posts
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Soyemia
Finland12 Posts
On July 25 2012 00:36 Gorsameth wrote: Unfortunatly in the netherlands the worry seems to be non existant amongst our politicians but it makes you wonder. At what point would a healthy nation say enough is enough and leave the euro themselves instead of feeding the stupidity of others. I honestly don't think breaking up euro would be good at all. I think it's generally a good thing but we should find a way out of it wihtout a massive transfer of wealth to the South. Also all this bullshit about greeks burning german flags and us the north generalising all southern europeans lazy needs to stop. It's scary and isn't helping the situation at all. | ||
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Caryc
Germany330 Posts
i mean yeah..u dont want to let other countries go broke and stuff but the whole thing isnt rational anymore..since some time now.. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On July 25 2012 00:44 Caryc wrote: considering http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-the-functioning-of-the-european-union-and-comments/part-3-union-policies-and-internal-actions/title-viii-economic-and-monetary-policy/chapter-1-economic-policy/393-article-125.html i dont understand why all of this happened in the first place... i mean yeah..u dont want to let other countries go broke and stuff but the whole thing isnt rational anymore..since some time now.. What is happening is basically everything that it says should not happen. They are just making it out to be loans on which they attach harsh demands... The situations in especially Greece is so dire that it is necessary to let them go under and even after that, they need to learn how to enforce laws and how to build a cooperating government staff. Basically, democracy 101... Spain is hurting a lot and it is looking very bad with the banks and somewhat with the regions, though it is of lesser importance. The new budget in Spain seems really nasty, but it is not putting them in as bad a situation tax-wise as northern europe... Be aware that I am mostly pointing fingers at governments and their inabilities. Certain unions are to blame too, but that is mostly irrelevant. | ||
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FallenStar
Spain118 Posts
If we don't save our economy, we will be broke, and I'm sure you were able to pay your debts (again, I suppose it), roughly, but you could. On the other hand, Spain cannot, and I'm sure that we have a much worse wealth, and we haven't cut enough, but not because we haven't cut enough wealth or anything, but because we haven't cut well. And to finish, I can tell you two things: 1: Your country is still in a much better shape than ours. 2: We're going to face a much worse situation comparing with now. | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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accela
Greece314 Posts
The worst that can happen right now (but with good chance and it's rising between eu bureaucrats) is to go for a dual scheme with euro and local currency in circulation. IMO this could damage the local currency's value pretty badly even before the imho unavoidable final break up. The best would be a "friendly" break up. This in reality cannot happen cause simply there will be 17 newly (re)formed competitors but can at least give the illusion to people of europe that "we are all cool and no hard feelings" at leaston the surface and maybe keeping few EU policies (yes yes eurovision too  ) | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On July 25 2012 01:58 archonOOid wrote: I was pro EU centralization in terms of economy and politics but as the northern EU countries are the only free market countries i'm very skeptical to give more power to Brussels. Because the southern and poor nations outnumber the ricer ones. How can the productivity grow in the EU if we are giving money to farmers, stopping migration at the borders and embracing national interest and distancing our self from the free market principles. So Finland, Netherland or Denmark are richer than Spain, Italy or France... okay. And giving money to southern europe = giving money to farmers... You seems very educated. I understand why the northern europe is the best europe. | ||
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