"Opinion polls are banned for two weeks before voting but unofficial polls say the result is too close to call." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18472595 (at bottom link the vieuwpoints of all parties are explained)
There is no good outcome it seems. If pro europe wins and greece stays in euro zone the troubles and wories over it will haunt europe for months to come. If they go out it will be chaotic at best, or is everyone prepared now and will it be a non event? Interesting to watch what will happen to say the least.
@ above:ya you absolutely right, but since there so manny powerfull people who profit from the system there is realy no way it will change.
@ xeo1 No dont get your hopes up..capitalism wont collapse for at least 100+ year i think. Its just another crisis people will make use of to profit from.
On June 17 2012 20:46 Rassy wrote: If pro europe wins
All parties above 3% except communist party support the european prospect. More correctly there are pro-austerity and parties that support the memorandum or not.
On June 07 2012 23:44 50bani wrote: Funny that Nazi is in fact Socialist so the doctrines are closer than you might think. They should all be friends, but you know, they like to vilify somebody in order to get points across to the people, might as well vilify each other.
Yes, this is true! People like to quibble though about the differences in ideology.
Socialist, fascist, communist, authoritarian, totalitarian, dictatorship.... they are all fundamentally the same in that they all operate on the same primary premise: That the individual should be subordinated to the state. Liberals, and I mean liberals in the classic sense of the term, people who believe in liberty, believe that the government derives it's powers from the consent of the governed. Unfortunately many people are eager to give their consent to inevitable slavery.
Oh boy... you both have no idea what you're talking about.
Greece's conservative New Democracy party and the radical left Syriza party are running neck and neck according to exit polls released immediately after voting closed in a landmark vote.
New Democracy was just half a percentage point ahead in Sunday's exit polls which gave a range of between 27.5 per cent and 30.5 per cent for its vote compared to between 27 per cent and 30 per cent for Syriza.
Greeks fed up with austerity voted to elect a parliament for the second time in weeks, in elections that could decide their future in the eurozone amid unprecedented external pressure not to vote for a radical leftist party.
Some 9.8 million Greeks began voting at 04:00 GMT in a showdown between the conservative New Democracy party and the anti-austerity Syriza party that has spooked European leaders and the markets. Voting ended at 16:00 GMT, with first results expected by 19:00 GMT.
"I hope that the vote will lead us to the formation of a stable government that will immediately address the problems troubling the Greek people," President Carolos Papoulias said after casting his vote.
Sunday's vote has been cast as a stark dilemma between rejecting austerity and risking the country's place in the single currency bloc, or choosing to keep the euro despite the punishing terms of an international bailout package.
On June 07 2012 23:44 50bani wrote: Funny that Nazi is in fact Socialist so the doctrines are closer than you might think. They should all be friends, but you know, they like to vilify somebody in order to get points across to the people, might as well vilify each other.
Yes, this is true! People like to quibble though about the differences in ideology.
Socialist, fascist, communist, authoritarian, totalitarian, dictatorship.... they are all fundamentally the same in that they all operate on the same primary premise: That the individual should be subordinated to the state. Liberals, and I mean liberals in the classic sense of the term, people who believe in liberty, believe that the government derives it's powers from the consent of the governed. Unfortunately many people are eager to give their consent to inevitable slavery.
Oh boy... you both have no idea what you're talking about.
Care to enlighten us then?
To suggest that fascism and socialism are fundamentally the "same" is intellectually dishonest to the extreme. It reeks of armchair poly sci oversimplification intended to make the glory of capitalism seem all the greater, when in reality the genesis of fascist political movements and socialist political movements have historically been quite different, with different societal context, different cultural notions, etc. Is totality usually a component of both political ideologies in manifestation? Sure. That doesn't justify an ignorance of the rest of the equation.
I'm really hoping the Greeks tell the ECB, the IMF and all the other unelected officials making a killing out of the destruction of their Countries future to do one. We all know that the Greek government didn't manage their finances well, and may have even comitted accounting fraud to get into the Euro, but come on. No excuse for what these people are doing.
On June 18 2012 02:58 Trowa127 wrote: I'm really hoping the Greeks tell the ECB, the IMF and all the other unelected officials making a killing out of the destruction of their Countries future to do one. We all know that the Greek government didn't manage their finances well, and may have even comitted accounting fraud to get into the Euro, but come on. No excuse for what these people are doing.
Christine Legarde your time will come.
Well thats one uninformed opinion and counting.
The reasons why Greece is standing as bad as it is are many, and can be laid at quite a few different peoples doors, but frankly most of these are Greek. To say they didn't manage their finances well might be the understatement of the century. If you mean they spent about 200% more than they could afford, and did everything in their power to conceal that effort you would be closer to the truth.
Frankly i pity the greek people, but you should remember that they elected those asses for nearly 30 years before you go blame the ECB who is frantically trying to stop this crisis (and cannot make a profit by the way).
On June 18 2012 02:58 Trowa127 wrote: I'm really hoping the Greeks tell the ECB, the IMF and all the other unelected officials making a killing out of the destruction of their Countries future to do one. We all know that the Greek government didn't manage their finances well, and may have even comitted accounting fraud to get into the Euro, but come on. No excuse for what these people are doing.
Christine Legarde your time will come.
Well thats one uninformed opinion and counting.
The reasons why Greece is standing as bad as it is are many, and can be laid at quite a few different peoples doors, but frankly most of these are Greek. To say they didn't manage their finances well might be the understatement of the century. If you mean they spent about 200% more than they could afford, and did everything in their power to conceal that effort you would be closer to the truth.
Frankly i pity the greek people, but you should remember that they elected those asses for nearly 30 years before you go blame the ECB who is frantically trying to stop this crisis (and cannot make a profit by the way).
Well, thats one more uninformed opinion and counting. You say Greece spent more than they had - notice I admitted they did this. I also said they may have comitted accounting fraud. So basically your first paragraph is just repeating what I just said, well done.
Here is a really good example. The ECB and the ESFS are bailing out the Spanish banking system, just like they bailed out the Greek banking system. They lend these banks money at 1% interest rates. These banks then go straight to the markets and buy their own governments bonds at 5%-6%, book a profit immediatley and everyone gets paid. None of this helps the overall problem of massive indebtedness, right? So how are these institutions, which are meant to be supporting Greece but are comitting fraud to make a profit, helping the Greek government? Afterall, that is what the Greeks are buying into - more austerity to prop up a failing European single currency. They don't gain anything from this. You claiming the ECB can't make a profit just proves how little you know. Please don't make comments about things you don't understand, for everyones sake.
And sorry, you saying the ECB is 'frantically trying to stop the crisis.' Holy shit I'm in tears here. None of this is about stopping a crisis. Its about making as much money as possible out of bankrupt banks who should have been allowed to fail. You cannot transfer a banks balance sheet to the tax payer and say you are trying to solve a problem. It just doesn't make any sense. Companies fail - people make losses. This is what happens. It has to be allowed to happen, otherwise this ridiculous worldwide central banking ponzi scheme will never end.
On June 18 2012 02:58 Trowa127 wrote: I'm really hoping the Greeks tell the ECB, the IMF and all the other unelected officials making a killing out of the destruction of their Countries future to do one. We all know that the Greek government didn't manage their finances well, and may have even comitted accounting fraud to get into the Euro, but come on. No excuse for what these people are doing.
Christine Legarde your time will come.
Well thats one uninformed opinion and counting.
The reasons why Greece is standing as bad as it is are many, and can be laid at quite a few different peoples doors, but frankly most of these are Greek. To say they didn't manage their finances well might be the understatement of the century. If you mean they spent about 200% more than they could afford, and did everything in their power to conceal that effort you would be closer to the truth.
Frankly i pity the greek people, but you should remember that they elected those asses for nearly 30 years before you go blame the ECB who is frantically trying to stop this crisis (and cannot make a profit by the way).
Well, thats one more uninformed opinion and counting. You say Greece spent more than they had - notice I admitted they did this. I also said they may have comitted accounting fraud. So basically your first paragraph is just repeating what I just said, well done.
Here is a really good example. The ECB and the ESFS are bailing out the Spanish banking system, just like they bailed out the Greek banking system. They lend these banks money at 1% interest rates. These banks then go straight to the markets and buy their own governments bonds at 5%-6%, book a profit immediatley and everyone gets paid. None of this helps the overall problem of massive indebtedness, right? So how are these institutions, which are meant to be supporting Greece but are comitting fraud to make a profit, helping the Greek government? Afterall, that is what the Greeks are buying into - more austerity to prop up a failing European single currency. They don't gain anything from this.
Please don't make comments about things you don't understand, for everyones sake.
If you are attempting to justify your view that those helping Greece are actually perpetrating fraud, it is perhaps best to cite evidence that references the Greek situation. What we got instead is a hilarious jump to the Spanish economic situation (which is so unlike Greece's I'm rather dumfounded you'd even do that). In summary, you use a sub-par argument predicated on a non-sequitor, and to top it off layer on a healthy dose of pissy condescension. Excellent, most excellent.
On June 18 2012 02:58 Trowa127 wrote: I'm really hoping the Greeks tell the ECB, the IMF and all the other unelected officials making a killing out of the destruction of their Countries future to do one. We all know that the Greek government didn't manage their finances well, and may have even comitted accounting fraud to get into the Euro, but come on. No excuse for what these people are doing.
Christine Legarde your time will come.
Well thats one uninformed opinion and counting.
The reasons why Greece is standing as bad as it is are many, and can be laid at quite a few different peoples doors, but frankly most of these are Greek. To say they didn't manage their finances well might be the understatement of the century. If you mean they spent about 200% more than they could afford, and did everything in their power to conceal that effort you would be closer to the truth.
Frankly i pity the greek people, but you should remember that they elected those asses for nearly 30 years before you go blame the ECB who is frantically trying to stop this crisis (and cannot make a profit by the way).
Well, thats one more uninformed opinion and counting. You say Greece spent more than they had - notice I admitted they did this. I also said they may have comitted accounting fraud. So basically your first paragraph is just repeating what I just said, well done.
Here is a really good example. The ECB and the ESFS are bailing out the Spanish banking system, just like they bailed out the Greek banking system. They lend these banks money at 1% interest rates. These banks then go straight to the markets and buy their own governments bonds at 5%-6%, book a profit immediatley and everyone gets paid. None of this helps the overall problem of massive indebtedness, right? So how are these institutions, which are meant to be supporting Greece but are comitting fraud to make a profit, helping the Greek government? Afterall, that is what the Greeks are buying into - more austerity to prop up a failing European single currency. They don't gain anything from this.
Please don't make comments about things you don't understand, for everyones sake.
If you are attempting to justify your view that those helping Greece are actually perpetrating fraud, it is perhaps best to cite evidence that references the Greek situation. What we got instead is a hilarious jump to the Spanish economic situation (which is so unlike Greece's I'm rather dumfounded you'd even do that). In summary, you use a sub-par argument predicated on a non-sequitor, and to top it off layer on a healthy dose of pissy condescension. Excellent, most excellent.
I fail how the situation in Spain is any different to the one in Greece two years ago. Nationalised banks? Check. Massive public debts that only continue to increase depsite 'austerity?' Check. European bail outs? Check. Do you think Spain is honestly in a better financial position than Greece? Really?
The ECB alreay did the same thing with Greek banks. That is why I mentioned the Spanish example, because they went through this whole phase with Greece already. They even booked a profit on a bond swap, but were later pressured into not taking it. How lovely of them. They have to be persuaded not to book a profit on a bail out. They must be frantically trying so hard to stem the bleeding when they have to be told not to book a profit from a bail out.
On June 18 2012 02:58 Trowa127 wrote: I'm really hoping the Greeks tell the ECB, the IMF and all the other unelected officials making a killing out of the destruction of their Countries future to do one. We all know that the Greek government didn't manage their finances well, and may have even comitted accounting fraud to get into the Euro, but come on. No excuse for what these people are doing.
Christine Legarde your time will come.
Well thats one uninformed opinion and counting.
The reasons why Greece is standing as bad as it is are many, and can be laid at quite a few different peoples doors, but frankly most of these are Greek. To say they didn't manage their finances well might be the understatement of the century. If you mean they spent about 200% more than they could afford, and did everything in their power to conceal that effort you would be closer to the truth.
Frankly i pity the greek people, but you should remember that they elected those asses for nearly 30 years before you go blame the ECB who is frantically trying to stop this crisis (and cannot make a profit by the way).
Well, thats one more uninformed opinion and counting. You say Greece spent more than they had - notice I admitted they did this. I also said they may have comitted accounting fraud. So basically your first paragraph is just repeating what I just said, well done.
Here is a really good example. The ECB and the ESFS are bailing out the Spanish banking system, just like they bailed out the Greek banking system. They lend these banks money at 1% interest rates. These banks then go straight to the markets and buy their own governments bonds at 5%-6%, book a profit immediatley and everyone gets paid. None of this helps the overall problem of massive indebtedness, right? So how are these institutions, which are meant to be supporting Greece but are comitting fraud to make a profit, helping the Greek government? Afterall, that is what the Greeks are buying into - more austerity to prop up a failing European single currency. They don't gain anything from this.
Please don't make comments about things you don't understand, for everyones sake.
If you are attempting to justify your view that those helping Greece are actually perpetrating fraud, it is perhaps best to cite evidence that references the Greek situation. What we got instead is a hilarious jump to the Spanish economic situation (which is so unlike Greece's I'm rather dumfounded you'd even do that). In summary, you use a sub-par argument predicated on a non-sequitor, and to top it off layer on a healthy dose of pissy condescension. Excellent, most excellent.
I fail how the situation in Spain is any different to the one in Greece two years ago. Nationalised banks? Check. Massive public debts that only continue to increase depsite 'austerity?' Check. European bail outs? Check.
How is that a jump?
The degree with which the Greek government and the upper class committed fraud puts them on a different level of crises entirely. And that's looking at only one facet of the situation. The Greek infrastructure, cultural economic sensibility, and political climate are entirely different from Spain's. Your analogy simply doesn't work, given that one is able to get past the tired simplism of "DOWN WITH BANKS DOWN WITH BANKS!"
On June 18 2012 02:58 Trowa127 wrote: I'm really hoping the Greeks tell the ECB, the IMF and all the other unelected officials making a killing out of the destruction of their Countries future to do one. We all know that the Greek government didn't manage their finances well, and may have even comitted accounting fraud to get into the Euro, but come on. No excuse for what these people are doing.
Christine Legarde your time will come.
Well thats one uninformed opinion and counting.
The reasons why Greece is standing as bad as it is are many, and can be laid at quite a few different peoples doors, but frankly most of these are Greek. To say they didn't manage their finances well might be the understatement of the century. If you mean they spent about 200% more than they could afford, and did everything in their power to conceal that effort you would be closer to the truth.
Frankly i pity the greek people, but you should remember that they elected those asses for nearly 30 years before you go blame the ECB who is frantically trying to stop this crisis (and cannot make a profit by the way).
Well, thats one more uninformed opinion and counting. You say Greece spent more than they had - notice I admitted they did this. I also said they may have comitted accounting fraud. So basically your first paragraph is just repeating what I just said, well done.
Here is a really good example. The ECB and the ESFS are bailing out the Spanish banking system, just like they bailed out the Greek banking system. They lend these banks money at 1% interest rates. These banks then go straight to the markets and buy their own governments bonds at 5%-6%, book a profit immediatley and everyone gets paid. None of this helps the overall problem of massive indebtedness, right? So how are these institutions, which are meant to be supporting Greece but are comitting fraud to make a profit, helping the Greek government? Afterall, that is what the Greeks are buying into - more austerity to prop up a failing European single currency. They don't gain anything from this.
Please don't make comments about things you don't understand, for everyones sake.
If you are attempting to justify your view that those helping Greece are actually perpetrating fraud, it is perhaps best to cite evidence that references the Greek situation. What we got instead is a hilarious jump to the Spanish economic situation (which is so unlike Greece's I'm rather dumfounded you'd even do that). In summary, you use a sub-par argument predicated on a non-sequitor, and to top it off layer on a healthy dose of pissy condescension. Excellent, most excellent.
I fail how the situation in Spain is any different to the one in Greece two years ago. Nationalised banks? Check. Massive public debts that only continue to increase depsite 'austerity?' Check. European bail outs? Check.
How is that a jump?
The degree with which the Greek government and the upper class committed fraud puts them on a different level of crises entirely. And that's looking at only one facet of the situation. The Greek infrastructure, cultural economic sensibility, and political climate are entirely different from Spain's. Your analogy simply doesn't work, given that one is able to get past the tired simplism of "DOWN WITH BANKS DOWN WITH BANKS!"
Err where did I say down with the banks? You're putting words in my mouth. I said the EFSF and the ECB are helping the European banking system book profits using bail out money. Thats an indisputable fact. Does that mean I'm 'anti-banks' or 'anti-bankers?' No. I just don't agree with unregulated, unelected international banking organisations helping people make a profit out of a situation where profit should be the last thing they are thinking about.
You people are so quick to claim that anyone with a differing opinion is anti-banks, anti-capitalism, socialist, facist etc that you forget to actually read what you are writing.
Until you can prove the EFSF and the ECB haven't helped banks book profits using bail out money I really don't think there is much else for us to talk about.
Quote - '“This 100 billion will be added to the public finances of Spain so it just reinforces the link between banks and the sovereign,” Olly Burrows, credit analyst at Rabobank International, said in a phone interview from London. “Spain is receiving funds to bail out its banks, which have been buying Spanish debt while everyone else has been getting out.”
For the record, the EFSF generally lend at around 0.5% - 1%. Spanish bonds are above 6% currently. Do the math.
On June 18 2012 02:58 Trowa127 wrote: I'm really hoping the Greeks tell the ECB, the IMF and all the other unelected officials making a killing out of the destruction of their Countries future to do one. We all know that the Greek government didn't manage their finances well, and may have even comitted accounting fraud to get into the Euro, but come on. No excuse for what these people are doing.
Christine Legarde your time will come.
Well thats one uninformed opinion and counting.
The reasons why Greece is standing as bad as it is are many, and can be laid at quite a few different peoples doors, but frankly most of these are Greek. To say they didn't manage their finances well might be the understatement of the century. If you mean they spent about 200% more than they could afford, and did everything in their power to conceal that effort you would be closer to the truth.
Frankly i pity the greek people, but you should remember that they elected those asses for nearly 30 years before you go blame the ECB who is frantically trying to stop this crisis (and cannot make a profit by the way).
Well, thats one more uninformed opinion and counting. You say Greece spent more than they had - notice I admitted they did this. I also said they may have comitted accounting fraud. So basically your first paragraph is just repeating what I just said, well done.
Here is a really good example. The ECB and the ESFS are bailing out the Spanish banking system, just like they bailed out the Greek banking system. They lend these banks money at 1% interest rates. These banks then go straight to the markets and buy their own governments bonds at 5%-6%, book a profit immediatley and everyone gets paid. None of this helps the overall problem of massive indebtedness, right? So how are these institutions, which are meant to be supporting Greece but are comitting fraud to make a profit, helping the Greek government? Afterall, that is what the Greeks are buying into - more austerity to prop up a failing European single currency. They don't gain anything from this.
Please don't make comments about things you don't understand, for everyones sake.
If you are attempting to justify your view that those helping Greece are actually perpetrating fraud, it is perhaps best to cite evidence that references the Greek situation. What we got instead is a hilarious jump to the Spanish economic situation (which is so unlike Greece's I'm rather dumfounded you'd even do that). In summary, you use a sub-par argument predicated on a non-sequitor, and to top it off layer on a healthy dose of pissy condescension. Excellent, most excellent.
I fail how the situation in Spain is any different to the one in Greece two years ago. Nationalised banks? Check. Massive public debts that only continue to increase depsite 'austerity?' Check. European bail outs? Check.
How is that a jump?
The degree with which the Greek government and the upper class committed fraud puts them on a different level of crises entirely. And that's looking at only one facet of the situation. The Greek infrastructure, cultural economic sensibility, and political climate are entirely different from Spain's. Your analogy simply doesn't work, given that one is able to get past the tired simplism of "DOWN WITH BANKS DOWN WITH BANKS!"
Err where did I say down with the banks? You're putting words in my mouth. I said the EFSF and the ECB are helping the European banking system book profits using bail out money. Thats an indisputable fact. Does that mean I'm 'anti-banks' or 'anti-bankers?' No. I just don't agree with unregulated, unelected international banking organisations helping people make a profit out of a situation where profit should be the last thing they are thinking about.
You people are so quick to claim that anyone with a differing opinion is anti-banks, anti-capitalism, socialist, facist etc that you forget to actually read what you are writing.
Until you can prove the EFSF and the ECB haven't helped banks book profits using bail out money I really don't think there is much else for us to talk about.
Quote - '“This 100 billion will be added to the public finances of Spain so it just reinforces the link between banks and the sovereign,” Olly Burrows, credit analyst at Rabobank International, said in a phone interview from London. “Spain is receiving funds to bail out its banks, which have been buying Spanish debt while everyone else has been getting out.”
For the record, the EFSF generally lend at around 0.5% - 1%. Spanish bonds are above 6% currently. Do the math.
The general idea behind ECB / EFSF programs is to...
1) Create an incentive for banks to by soverign bonds to keep interest rates in trouble countries low - which is necessary to avoid a default.
2) Make banks more profitable (and have those profits retained) so that in the case of a default the banks have more equity and so the banks themselves are less likely to bust.
So, yes banks are getting a boost from government action but there is reason to the madness.
Show attention people and take notes, whenever you will need to take a very serious decision as a nation keep the elders somewhere locked cause they are most probably gonna screw you hard.
Even if Syriza (radical left) had a big lead in ages 18-54, 55+ just voted once again the same corrupted parties....
EPT
