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On February 16 2012 08:19 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 06:27 pachakamakk wrote:
I can't understand how things fucked that fast. I mean, banks would have to erase some of the greek debt in order to save the situation but what next? Can europe still exist with countries like greece? I think EU is just too big, we just can't live knowing there could be another greece making all countries fall one by one. edit: prefacing this by saying this is a largely uneducated opinion (though I have done a bit of research on it). If Greece leaves the euro it sets a precedent for other weak countries like portugal, spain and Italy. I'm not extremely well versed in economics but I'd imagine that isn't exactly good for the world if those collapse as well, much less for the euro. Things got 'fucked that fast' because around the turn of the century everyone got a little TOO optimistic. Bush' tax cuts and increased expenses (which is supposedly pretty much the opposite of what you're supposed to do during a prospering cycle from what little I know), in addition to a lot of countries covering up their flaws to join the euro (Greece being the prime example). In retrospect, it's easy to say how we should've known. The problem is that as long as the system gives more incentive to personal short term gain over long term economic or even ecological loss, this'll keep happening. And really, there's no solution if you consider how countries themselves have become competing markets.
the bad thing is, that there is no gfood solution. We have to face our shit and that means deep economic trouble. But no politician will face that and tries everything to push it into the future and making the problem worse by it. And it's nothing that started yesterday our trip on cheap money started much earlier... just now the problems are getting so big that they have serious troubles to conceal or even manage it.
Not a situation u want to be in but just pushing it further ahead ......
greek is bankrupt since 2 years just pushing it ahead because all the other bubbles might burst as well ... thats no solution.. our politicians have to face reality or the market will forces us(if it stays somewhat free).
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As someone who has followed this crisis from a distance across the pond, how likely is the Greek government to go bankrupt and collapse? I know that they are in very heavy debt, and because they are part of the Eurozone cannot simply create inflation to ease the deficits, meanwhile pushing unpopular austerity packages to reduce debt and qualify for EU bailouts, but other than that I am don't really know the details of this problem.
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On February 23 2012 02:41 Bagration wrote:
As someone who has followed this crisis from a distance across the pond, how likely is the Greek government to go bankrupt and collapse? I know that they are in very heavy debt, and because they are part of the Eurozone cannot simply create inflation to ease the deficits, meanwhile pushing unpopular austerity packages to reduce debt and qualify for EU bailouts, but other than that I am don't really know the details of this problem.
Well, they've accepted the newest bailout. 130billion should hold them over for a while, but you can read the article I linked at the bottom of the previous page for a (grim) estimate on how likely it is to work in the long run.
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On February 23 2012 02:41 Bagration wrote:
As someone who has followed this crisis from a distance across the pond, how likely is the Greek government to go bankrupt and collapse? I know that they are in very heavy debt, and because they are part of the Eurozone cannot simply create inflation to ease the deficits, meanwhile pushing unpopular austerity packages to reduce debt and qualify for EU bailouts, but other than that I am don't really know the details of this problem.
give them a little more time and you will be able to buy your own island in the mediteranian.
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On February 23 2012 02:43 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 02:41 Bagration wrote:
As someone who has followed this crisis from a distance across the pond, how likely is the Greek government to go bankrupt and collapse? I know that they are in very heavy debt, and because they are part of the Eurozone cannot simply create inflation to ease the deficits, meanwhile pushing unpopular austerity packages to reduce debt and qualify for EU bailouts, but other than that I am don't really know the details of this problem. Well, they've accepted the newest bailout. 130billion should hold them over for a while, but you can read the article I linked at the bottom of the previous page for a (grim) estimate on how likely it is to work in the long run.
more precise would be to say the EU tries everything that greece will not be declared bankrupt.
While in fact greece should have gone bankrupt 2 years ago if it wouldn't have been injected by new loans that will only worsen the problem. -7% GDP last year and ~40 % unemployment of youth.
the goverment pretty much already collapsed ... right now greece is governed by an unelected ex-banker until april.
You can't save greece anymore WITHOUT bankrupcy... that would help them to start again ofc with much hardship... but with a possible future, otherwise i only see revolution coming in greece.
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My take (second year economics, intermediate level macro, courses on crises and finance)
Of the causes:
1. 2000-2007 or so, Greece had access to German interest rate level government funding from the financial markets. The markets didn't see this coming, at all, and it's possible they didn't care even if someone in there did see this coming. Did see but didn't care is supported by the historical evidence that Greece has a very bad record of repayment.
Somehow the markets just thought that things are good now.
2. When the debt crisis became a reality (around 2009) the only prescription has been government austerity in the face of a depressed economy. This is standard practice, in that, it's what is usually done in better times with countries that require international funding to survive (this is handled through the IMF, the IMF exists for this purpose, and is funded by the governments of developed nations).
The cut spending and hope for a private sector led recovery is what has gone totally wrong with Greece. Cut and hope for the best just does not work in the face of a depressed (contracting) economy. The reason is two fold: (i) Cutting back government spending causes the economy to contract further (The public sector accounts for roughly 20%-50% of the economy of any nation). (ii) Government indebtedness is not measured as an absolute figure: It is instead measured as % of GDP (GDP = economy) that the government serves. Government indebtedness is B / Y where B is the euro value of debt, and Y is the euro value of the economy. If B goes down, good. (Most governments in normal times are in debt 40%-60% of GDP, and it's ok)
But if Y goes down as well, no gain for the pain.
And austerity is painful, it shuts down businesses, it forces people to rethink their lives, it shuts down schools, medical centers and reduces the money income of anyone in anyway connected to the public sector (which is everyone).
2. What has been done?
In april 2010 Greece received it's first truckload of bailout money, and it came stitched together with tight austerity measures. The greek economy was (is) depressed, and the austerity measures made it worse. The Greek government's indebtedness has not gone down at all, any recovery that we might have had has been postponed indefinitely and this month we agreed on more bailout money. And again we have demanded, and been assured of, MORE austerity measures.
What's different? America seems to be on the road to a slow recovery. Will that help the Greeks? No. What else is different? Nothing really. Conservative economists have pivoted from their confidence rhetoric to simply arguing that we can't afford to do anything about it even if we wanted to. Kinda depressing really.
3. What will happen?
Greece will remain depressed, AFAIK the optimistic scenario is that their economy flat lines (stops contracting) in 2-3 years, and the B / Y debt level starts to go down. Youth unemployment to remain in the 50% region and general unemployment to remain around 20% for the next 5 years. It could well take 5+ years too for the economy to flat line. A "lost decade" at any rate.
The consequences of Greece leaving the euro? Some bad shit goes down in the balkan region. Total greek economic collapse: entire banking system wiped out (all savings, all pensions, everything), political upheaval (certainly), military rule(quite possibly), serious tensions with neighbouring countries (perhaps). European governments will have to nationalise more banks.
4. What should be done?
Proper bailout, with measures to get growth going. Impossible of course. Moral hazard yadda yadda, the ECB is prohibited by law from helping it's member states. Not realistic, for uncountable political reasons. Also not realistic due to traditional german views on government involvement with economy.
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Spain, Italy Portugal: The long and the short of it is no worries for the next few years. I suspect the whole hype about their government bond rates last year was just people coming to terms with what it means to be in the euro. And the press making a big fuss, as they, per usual, had no idea what was actually going on.
The actual big question about the euro and the southern economies (minus greece) that needs to be asked is about their trade position within europe, not gov. debt levels. Will the trade deficits of the south close, and how long will it take? It is entirely possible that they will remain for a long time. I won't go into specifics, but money is flowing out of these countries = Not good. If it won't stop, then eventually the euro will have to go. If it comes to that, then I sincerely hope we still have the time to leave this damned recession behind. Otherwise much will be in jeopardy.
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(edit: Apparently I don't (didn't) know what goes on in german public discourse, my apologies. I'll still leave this here as this has some relevant lines about unemployment)
I stumbled on an epiphany while writing the above posts. The real reason for german bullheadedness about government involvement with the economy is apparently due to their sworn rejection of national socialism. Hitler rebuilt the country from ashes within a few years with a combination of keynesian investment measures and government corporatism. They will never credit Hitler with anything, or give acknowledgement for neo-nazis to chew on. It maybe intellectually dishonest, but it's just the way things should be.
An almost entirely irrelevant realisation. I do not want to argue that the Germans are doing things wrong today because of hitler. Things are more complex than that, and there is nothing more pathetic than a nation that always cries out for keynes when shit catches fire (metaphorically speaking).
Edit: When is a fire big enough to cry out then? Subjective judgement. I'd say when it threatens the long term prospects of the people. Large scale unemployment projected to last a long time would count in my book. Yes the prospects in greece would count. Italy and Spain would probably not benefit: Their problems are due to unfavorable trade position: see post above.
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Am I wrong or didn't our gov. invest pretty heavily á la Keynes in the last few years?(e.g. Konjunkturpaket 1 u. 2, Kurzarbeit and so on...)
And Kontys, the TL forum might have an old design but you do have the ability to edit your posts here to avoid tripleposts  .
EDIT: (see, it works!) the german wikipedia site to the Konjunkturpaket II
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konjunkturpaket_II
There is no english one  .
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wait people are still pretending they know economics?
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people like to think they know what their talking about meanwhile the world is going shit
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On February 23 2012 05:18 SilentchiLL wrote:Am I wrong or didn't our gov. invest pretty heavily á la Keynes in the last few years?(e.g. Konjunkturpaket 1 u. 2, Kurzarbeit and so on...) And Kontys, the TL forum might have an old design but you do have the ability to edit your posts here to avoid tripleposts . EDIT: (see, it works!) the german wikipedia site to the Konjunkturpaket II http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konjunkturpaket_IIThere is no english one .
Well I'm glad your government is doing good for your people. Germany isn't the one with the problems though.
I admit I may have presumed too much there with the hitler thing. My information relating to German economics is mostly from newspapers and economics blogs of anglo-american origin. I do recall statements to the effect that "governments cannot create growth", but I won't argue the issue, I am not well informed on what Germans overall think.
(The reason I did triple post was to give the wall of text some proper punctuation, greece first, SPI second, and some rambling in the third.)
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going to shit or already is shit
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On February 23 2012 05:30 Kontys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 05:18 SilentchiLL wrote:Am I wrong or didn't our gov. invest pretty heavily á la Keynes in the last few years?(e.g. Konjunkturpaket 1 u. 2, Kurzarbeit and so on...) And Kontys, the TL forum might have an old design but you do have the ability to edit your posts here to avoid tripleposts . EDIT: (see, it works!) the german wikipedia site to the Konjunkturpaket II http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konjunkturpaket_IIThere is no english one . Well I'm glad your government is doing good for your people. Germany isn't the one with the problems though. I admit I may have presumed too much there with the hitler thing. My information relating to German economics is mostly from newspapers and economics blogs of anglo-american origin. I do recall statements to the effect that "governments cannot create growth", but I won't argue the issue, I am not well informed on what Germans overall think. (The reason I did triple post was to give the wall of text some proper punctuation, greece first, SPI second, and some rambling in the third.)
You probably should've mentioned that in your third post, after the first two posts the third one sounded like it came from somebody who's a smart guy, although if you know a little bit more it was obvious that it was(to be frank) massive bullshit.
Oh and maybe you should read different newspapers .
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I'm really done with it. The last bit of compassion that was still there with the Greeks, has evaporated.
Even though there is, under certain conditions, a new agreement, about 130 billion additional aid to Greece instead of overloading us with loads of thanks, Greek politicians bash their benefactors even harder. For the record, does benefactors, that's ultimately you and me.
There will be very little (Dutch) families that are prepared to accept and pay a other extra 1,000 euros to save the Greeks. Even if it would mean that we do not have to save Greece and pay a lot more additional costs in short term thinking. The downfall of Greece could cause a chain reaction in the financial system which would make the costs in the short term 2,500 euros instead of only the 1,000 euros to save Greece.
Even though that is a difference of 1,500 euros, it is not as bad as it sounds. What do citizens get back for that extra 1,500 euros cost?
Punish misconduct:
As painful as the net loss of EUR 1,500 in the short term may be, in economic terms the undergoing of Greece could eventually prove an excellent long-term investment. In the future, no country will ever get it in their heads to screw everyone over and wait with the so badly needed reformation that is need for decades to get the country "good" again.
You get much more for the 1,500 euro. To appreciate this, first a characterization of Greece.
Greece at a glance
A country that on paper has an suspiciously inhabitants older than 100 years. This longevity/old age is not because eating insane amounts of garlic soaked in olive oil since birth.The structural avoidance of any work-related stress makes it likely that the first man that makes 150, is a Greek ..The real reason is that the family of the grandmother/father still wants to rake in a few decades pension, which appear smoothly be slid into the broom closet.
A country where some train drivers hauling one ton euros per year, while - except for periods of strikes - aimlessly new, empty trains riding around on fresh European subsidy paid from adjacent sections.
A country where no one is saying a friendly "thank you" for all the help coming from various countries in the past were misled by the Greeks.
A country that calls (institutional) investors that are prepared to cut down 70 percent of Greece's debt: pernicious speculators dubs.
A country that with even with the cancellation of 100 percent of all debt by everyone including the European Central Bank, the state budget will still not be conclusive.
Even without interest and after all (paper) cuts, the Greek state gives out more than it receives. The Greeks have slept for two millennia and their economic strength is nil.
The structural economic crisis in Greece is actually still worse than the financial, because they can not grow out of the shortages. Normally, a population in a country with so little competitiveness have to live in pure poverty without luxery. Thanks to the parasite on the European Union, the Greeks could live beyond their means over years of time
A country where instead of apologizing for falsifying statistics (within the euro pact to come), Chancellor Angela Merkel is portrayed as a Nazi. Fortunately Merkel has a thick skin and glide past her invective. Gone are the times that "Nazi" is just about the worst insult. Meanwhile, that "Greek" is a lot worse, Merkel probably realized.
A country where instead of finally working very hard, they have massive strikes and demonstrations.
A country that is very normal that significantly poorer EU states should tighten the waist belt, to help the pampered Greeks
That dropping Greece will make sure other countrys will not make the same mistakes, it is rational argument. The above list, however, indicates that there is more. You just dont want to award such a country with salvation. The revenge alone will be worth 1,500 euros, according to me
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On February 23 2012 05:09 Kontys wrote:
I stumbled on an epiphany while writing the above posts. The real reason for german bullheadedness about government involvement with the economy is apparently due to their sworn rejection of national socialism. Hitler rebuilt the country from ashes within a few years with a combination of keynesian investment measures and government corporatism. They will never credit Hitler with anything, or give acknowledgement for neo-nazis to chew on. It maybe intellectually dishonest, but it's just the way things should be.
An almost entirely irrelevant realisation. I do not want to argue that the Germans are doing things wrong today because of hitler. Things are more complex than that, and there is nothing more pathetic than a nation that always cries out for keynes when shit catches fire (metaphorically speaking).
Edit: When is a fire big enough to cry out then? Subjective judgement. I'd say when it threatens the long term prospects of the people. Large scale unemployment projected to last a long time would count in my book. Yes the prospects in greece would count. Italy and Spain would probably not benefit: Their problems are due to unfavorable trade position: see post above.
Well a more intellectual accepted reason is Germany's bad memory of hyperinflation during the Weimar republik. They don't like to spend more than absolutely necessary. While I agree that Greece nowadays needs more spending too boost its economy, the fact remains that the Greek government still holds a primary deficit. As long as that remains, it is not credible to speak about a controlled bankrupt. If all debt would be erased, they would still require lending to balance the budget.
Ofcourse the best solution for the Greek economy would be to erase all Greek interest payments and finance the budget deficit by other EU members & increase investments by the Greek government. But yeah, I would value the end of the world by the 21st more realisticly than that solution politically.
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On February 23 2012 05:54 WallieP wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm really done with it. The last bit of compassion that was still there with the Greeks, has evaporated.
Even though there is, under certain conditions, a new agreement, about 130 billion additional aid to Greece instead of overloading us with loads of thanks, Greek politicians bash their benefactors even harder. For the record, does benefactors, that's ultimately you and me.
There will be very little (Dutch) families that are prepared to accept and pay a other extra 1,000 euros to save the Greeks. Even if it would mean that we do not have to save Greece and pay a lot more additional costs in short term thinking. The downfall of Greece could cause a chain reaction in the financial system which would make the costs in the short term 2,500 euros instead of only the 1,000 euros to save Greece.
Even though that is a difference of 1,500 euros, it is not as bad as it sounds. What do citizens get back for that extra 1,500 euros cost?
Punish misconduct:
As painful as the net loss of EUR 1,500 in the short term may be, in economic terms the undergoing of Greece could eventually prove an excellent long-term investment. In the future, no country will ever get it in their heads to screw everyone over and wait with the so badly needed reformation that is need for decades to get the country "good" again.
You get much more for the 1,500 euro. To appreciate this, first a characterization of Greece.
Greece at a glance
A country that on paper has an suspiciously inhabitants older than 100 years. This longevity/old age is not because eating insane amounts of garlic soaked in olive oil since birth.The structural avoidance of any work-related stress makes it likely that the first man that makes 150, is a Greek ..The real reason is that the family of the grandmother/father still wants to rake in a few decades pension, which appear smoothly be slid into the broom closet.
A country where some train drivers hauling one ton euros per year, while - except for periods of strikes - aimlessly new, empty trains riding around on fresh European subsidy paid from adjacent sections.
A country where no one is saying a friendly "thank you" for all the help coming from various countries in the past were misled by the Greeks.
A country that calls (institutional) investors that are prepared to cut down 70 percent of Greece's debt: pernicious speculators dubs.
A country that with even with the cancellation of 100 percent of all debt by everyone including the European Central Bank, the state budget will still not be conclusive.
Even without interest and after all (paper) cuts, the Greek state gives out more than it receives. The Greeks have slept for two millennia and their economic strength is nil.
The structural economic crisis in Greece is actually still worse than the financial, because they can not grow out of the shortages. Normally, a population in a country with so little competitiveness have to live in pure poverty without luxery. Thanks to the parasite on the European Union, the Greeks could live beyond their means over years of time
A country where instead of apologizing for falsifying statistics (within the euro pact to come), Chancellor Angela Merkel is portrayed as a Nazi. Fortunately Merkel has a thick skin and glide past her invective. Gone are the times that "Nazi" is just about the worst insult. Meanwhile, that "Greek" is a lot worse, Merkel probably realized.
A country where instead of finally working very hard, they have massive strikes and demonstrations.
A country that is very normal that significantly poorer EU states should tighten the waist belt, to help the pampered Greeks
That dropping Greece will make sure other countrys will not make the same mistakes, it is rational argument. The above list, however, indicates that there is more. You just dont want to award such a country with salvation. The revenge alone will be worth 1,500 euros, according to me
Didn't you learn from you locked thread that it's confusing when you don't put this in a quote or mention that this is from an article? Link?
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 23 2012 05:54 WallieP wrote:
I'm really done with it. The last bit of compassion that was still there with the Greeks, has evaporated.
Even though there is, under certain conditions, a new agreement, about 130 billion additional aid to Greece instead of overloading us with loads of thanks, Greek politicians bash their benefactors even harder. For the record, does benefactors, that's ultimately you and me.
There will be very little (Dutch) families that are prepared to accept and pay a other extra 1,000 euros to save the Greeks. Even if it would mean that we do not have to save Greece and pay a lot more additional costs in short term thinking. The downfall of Greece could cause a chain reaction in the financial system which would make the costs in the short term 2,500 euros instead of only the 1,000 euros to save Greece.
Even though that is a difference of 1,500 euros, it is not as bad as it sounds. What do citizens get back for that extra 1,500 euros cost?
Punish misconduct:
As painful as the net loss of EUR 1,500 in the short term may be, in economic terms the undergoing of Greece could eventually prove an excellent long-term investment. In the future, no country will ever get it in their heads to screw everyone over and wait with the so badly needed reformation that is need for decades to get the country "good" again.
You get much more for the 1,500 euro. To appreciate this, first a characterization of Greece.
Greece at a glance
A country that on paper has an suspiciously inhabitants older than 100 years. This longevity/old age is not because eating insane amounts of garlic soaked in olive oil since birth.The structural avoidance of any work-related stress makes it likely that the first man that makes 150, is a Greek ..The real reason is that the family of the grandmother/father still wants to rake in a few decades pension, which appear smoothly be slid into the broom closet.
A country where some train drivers hauling one ton euros per year, while - except for periods of strikes - aimlessly new, empty trains riding around on fresh European subsidy paid from adjacent sections.
A country where no one is saying a friendly "thank you" for all the help coming from various countries in the past were misled by the Greeks.
A country that calls (institutional) investors that are prepared to cut down 70 percent of Greece's debt: pernicious speculators dubs.
A country that with even with the cancellation of 100 percent of all debt by everyone including the European Central Bank, the state budget will still not be conclusive.
Even without interest and after all (paper) cuts, the Greek state gives out more than it receives. The Greeks have slept for two millennia and their economic strength is nil.
The structural economic crisis in Greece is actually still worse than the financial, because they can not grow out of the shortages. Normally, a population in a country with so little competitiveness have to live in pure poverty without luxery. Thanks to the parasite on the European Union, the Greeks could live beyond their means over years of time
A country where instead of apologizing for falsifying statistics (within the euro pact to come), Chancellor Angela Merkel is portrayed as a Nazi. Fortunately Merkel has a thick skin and glide past her invective. Gone are the times that "Nazi" is just about the worst insult. Meanwhile, that "Greek" is a lot worse, Merkel probably realized.
A country where instead of finally working very hard, they have massive strikes and demonstrations.
A country that is very normal that significantly poorer EU states should tighten the waist belt, to help the pampered Greeks
That dropping Greece will make sure other countrys will not make the same mistakes, it is rational argument. The above list, however, indicates that there is more. You just dont want to award such a country with salvation. The revenge alone will be worth 1,500 euros, according to me
The thing that bothers me about this, is that the last time we economically punished a state in Europe by effectively letting it go bankrupt & not aiding help while other important states could but decided not to because of revenge, occured in the 1920s... and twenty years later they were not very happy with the 'valuable lesson' we learned them.
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On February 23 2012 06:02 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 05:54 WallieP wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm really done with it. The last bit of compassion that was still there with the Greeks, has evaporated.
Even though there is, under certain conditions, a new agreement, about 130 billion additional aid to Greece instead of overloading us with loads of thanks, Greek politicians bash their benefactors even harder. For the record, does benefactors, that's ultimately you and me.
There will be very little (Dutch) families that are prepared to accept and pay a other extra 1,000 euros to save the Greeks. Even if it would mean that we do not have to save Greece and pay a lot more additional costs in short term thinking. The downfall of Greece could cause a chain reaction in the financial system which would make the costs in the short term 2,500 euros instead of only the 1,000 euros to save Greece.
Even though that is a difference of 1,500 euros, it is not as bad as it sounds. What do citizens get back for that extra 1,500 euros cost?
Punish misconduct:
As painful as the net loss of EUR 1,500 in the short term may be, in economic terms the undergoing of Greece could eventually prove an excellent long-term investment. In the future, no country will ever get it in their heads to screw everyone over and wait with the so badly needed reformation that is need for decades to get the country "good" again.
You get much more for the 1,500 euro. To appreciate this, first a characterization of Greece.
Greece at a glance
A country that on paper has an suspiciously inhabitants older than 100 years. This longevity/old age is not because eating insane amounts of garlic soaked in olive oil since birth.The structural avoidance of any work-related stress makes it likely that the first man that makes 150, is a Greek ..The real reason is that the family of the grandmother/father still wants to rake in a few decades pension, which appear smoothly be slid into the broom closet.
A country where some train drivers hauling one ton euros per year, while - except for periods of strikes - aimlessly new, empty trains riding around on fresh European subsidy paid from adjacent sections.
A country where no one is saying a friendly "thank you" for all the help coming from various countries in the past were misled by the Greeks.
A country that calls (institutional) investors that are prepared to cut down 70 percent of Greece's debt: pernicious speculators dubs.
A country that with even with the cancellation of 100 percent of all debt by everyone including the European Central Bank, the state budget will still not be conclusive.
Even without interest and after all (paper) cuts, the Greek state gives out more than it receives. The Greeks have slept for two millennia and their economic strength is nil.
The structural economic crisis in Greece is actually still worse than the financial, because they can not grow out of the shortages. Normally, a population in a country with so little competitiveness have to live in pure poverty without luxery. Thanks to the parasite on the European Union, the Greeks could live beyond their means over years of time
A country where instead of apologizing for falsifying statistics (within the euro pact to come), Chancellor Angela Merkel is portrayed as a Nazi. Fortunately Merkel has a thick skin and glide past her invective. Gone are the times that "Nazi" is just about the worst insult. Meanwhile, that "Greek" is a lot worse, Merkel probably realized.
A country where instead of finally working very hard, they have massive strikes and demonstrations.
A country that is very normal that significantly poorer EU states should tighten the waist belt, to help the pampered Greeks
That dropping Greece will make sure other countrys will not make the same mistakes, it is rational argument. The above list, however, indicates that there is more. You just dont want to award such a country with salvation. The revenge alone will be worth 1,500 euros, according to me Didn't you learn from you locked thread that it's confusing when you don't put this in a quote or mention that this is from an article? Link?
Funny thing is, I was only interested in the "150 year old man" statement, which I tried to Google and got nothing. What a load bullocks.
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EPT
