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On September 22 2011 07:49 AcuWill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:16 Elegy wrote:On September 22 2011 06:55 Gaga wrote: read my edited part ...
these free credits are not the reason but just a mean to push the inevitable further into the future ... exactly what you say ... but the reason for the problem is much deeper ... and that is basically how money is created in our central banking system... created in america by the FED.
It's useless debating such points with people like that, it's revisionist history taken to the extreme under the guise of "I know I'm right even though the vast majority of academic literature disagrees with me, either partially or in total, but here's a book that proves everyone else is wrong". The fun thing about it is we shall in our lifetimes see who is right and who isn't. Austrians or Keynesians? So far, the Keynesians sure have fucked things up. t he question is simply how much will the lesson and answer hurt. Oh, and the vast majority of literature is written by Keynesians and if you follow their literature trail from their inception until now, they are the ones who are constantly revising their positions, theory and explaining away why it doesn't work (the Great Depression being a prime example.) Austrians are essentially the same from the beginning (although there is some expansion over time.)
That's a good point. People can discuss the theory back and forth for decades, but we can see first hand the consequences of our economic policies.
Keynesian economic theory will eventually go the way of Communism. Everyone who advocates it will argue "Well it's never been done RIGHT before!" They have an ideal in their head that is impossible to pin down into reality, because the assumptions at the foundation are flawed.
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On September 22 2011 08:04 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:49 AcuWill wrote:On September 22 2011 07:16 Elegy wrote:On September 22 2011 06:55 Gaga wrote: read my edited part ...
these free credits are not the reason but just a mean to push the inevitable further into the future ... exactly what you say ... but the reason for the problem is much deeper ... and that is basically how money is created in our central banking system... created in america by the FED.
It's useless debating such points with people like that, it's revisionist history taken to the extreme under the guise of "I know I'm right even though the vast majority of academic literature disagrees with me, either partially or in total, but here's a book that proves everyone else is wrong". The fun thing about it is we shall in our lifetimes see who is right and who isn't. Austrians or Keynesians? So far, the Keynesians sure have fucked things up. t he question is simply how much will the lesson and answer hurt. Oh, and the vast majority of literature is written by Keynesians and if you follow their literature trail from their inception until now, they are the ones who are constantly revising their positions, theory and explaining away why it doesn't work (the Great Depression being a prime example.) Austrians are essentially the same from the beginning (although there is some expansion over time.) Austrians want a return to the gold standard. We already tried that. Every country that went off of hard money during the Great Depression immediately recovered. Keynesians no longer exist. Every mainstream economist is basically a Monetarist for all intents and purposes, though most will call themselves New Keynesians. Every fiat money in the history of the world has failed, starting in Roman times. We are currently watching the two world leading ones fail.
I find it very difficult to discuss fiat to gold backed money. I simply cannot understand how one can think that money which is sound is not a good thing, and something that is manipulatable, can be destroyed at any moment by a printing press and is the means by which governments put themselves into massive debt at the cost to their citizens is a good thing.
Once again, we shall see in our lifetimes. It is interesting that every central bank in the world in the West and East are net buyers of gold for the first time in decades. Meanwhile, crediting nations are trying to purge themselves of fiat currencies for tangible assets. This I think we will see the conclusion of within a decade.
Edit: Also, what people call themselves is irrelevant. Keynesians, Monetarists, New Keynesians; it is all government interventionist at its core.
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On September 22 2011 08:16 AcuWill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 08:04 domovoi wrote:On September 22 2011 07:49 AcuWill wrote:On September 22 2011 07:16 Elegy wrote:On September 22 2011 06:55 Gaga wrote: read my edited part ...
these free credits are not the reason but just a mean to push the inevitable further into the future ... exactly what you say ... but the reason for the problem is much deeper ... and that is basically how money is created in our central banking system... created in america by the FED.
It's useless debating such points with people like that, it's revisionist history taken to the extreme under the guise of "I know I'm right even though the vast majority of academic literature disagrees with me, either partially or in total, but here's a book that proves everyone else is wrong". The fun thing about it is we shall in our lifetimes see who is right and who isn't. Austrians or Keynesians? So far, the Keynesians sure have fucked things up. t he question is simply how much will the lesson and answer hurt. Oh, and the vast majority of literature is written by Keynesians and if you follow their literature trail from their inception until now, they are the ones who are constantly revising their positions, theory and explaining away why it doesn't work (the Great Depression being a prime example.) Austrians are essentially the same from the beginning (although there is some expansion over time.) Austrians want a return to the gold standard. We already tried that. Every country that went off of hard money during the Great Depression immediately recovered. Keynesians no longer exist. Every mainstream economist is basically a Monetarist for all intents and purposes, though most will call themselves New Keynesians. Every fiat money in the history of the world has failed, starting in Roman times. We are currently watching the two world leading ones fail. I find it very difficult to discuss fiat to gold backed money. I simply cannot understand how one can think that money which is sound is not a good thing, and something that is manipulatable, can be destroyed at any moment by a printing press and is the means by which governments put themselves into massive debt at the cost to their citizens is a good thing. Once again, we shall see in our lifetimes. It is interesting that every central bank in the world in the West and East are net buyers of gold for the first time in decades. Meanwhile, crediting nations are trying to purge themselves of fiat currencies for tangible assets. This I think we will see the conclusion of within a decade. Edit: Also, what people call themselves is irrelevant. Keynesians, Monetarists, New Keynesians; it is all government interventionist at its core. The really sad thing is, when things start to fall apart, everyone will be decrying it as the failures of capitalism. The rich will always make an easy scapegoat for the populist masses.
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On September 22 2011 09:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 08:16 AcuWill wrote:On September 22 2011 08:04 domovoi wrote:On September 22 2011 07:49 AcuWill wrote:On September 22 2011 07:16 Elegy wrote:On September 22 2011 06:55 Gaga wrote: read my edited part ...
these free credits are not the reason but just a mean to push the inevitable further into the future ... exactly what you say ... but the reason for the problem is much deeper ... and that is basically how money is created in our central banking system... created in america by the FED.
It's useless debating such points with people like that, it's revisionist history taken to the extreme under the guise of "I know I'm right even though the vast majority of academic literature disagrees with me, either partially or in total, but here's a book that proves everyone else is wrong". The fun thing about it is we shall in our lifetimes see who is right and who isn't. Austrians or Keynesians? So far, the Keynesians sure have fucked things up. t he question is simply how much will the lesson and answer hurt. Oh, and the vast majority of literature is written by Keynesians and if you follow their literature trail from their inception until now, they are the ones who are constantly revising their positions, theory and explaining away why it doesn't work (the Great Depression being a prime example.) Austrians are essentially the same from the beginning (although there is some expansion over time.) Austrians want a return to the gold standard. We already tried that. Every country that went off of hard money during the Great Depression immediately recovered. Keynesians no longer exist. Every mainstream economist is basically a Monetarist for all intents and purposes, though most will call themselves New Keynesians. Every fiat money in the history of the world has failed, starting in Roman times. We are currently watching the two world leading ones fail. I find it very difficult to discuss fiat to gold backed money. I simply cannot understand how one can think that money which is sound is not a good thing, and something that is manipulatable, can be destroyed at any moment by a printing press and is the means by which governments put themselves into massive debt at the cost to their citizens is a good thing. Once again, we shall see in our lifetimes. It is interesting that every central bank in the world in the West and East are net buyers of gold for the first time in decades. Meanwhile, crediting nations are trying to purge themselves of fiat currencies for tangible assets. This I think we will see the conclusion of within a decade. Edit: Also, what people call themselves is irrelevant. Keynesians, Monetarists, New Keynesians; it is all government interventionist at its core. The really sad thing is, when things start to fall apart, everyone will be decrying it as the failures of capitalism. The rich will always make an easy scapegoat for the populist masses.
The poor poor rich, troughout history only the rich had to suffer while the poor always got their way. U mad? I'm very glad that their is so much water between the american advocates of a cannibalizing free-market system and Europe.
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I'd love to see the gold standard replacing the fiat money we have now in this recession. It'll only destroy the entire banking system and leave millions out on the streets. And how are you going to give everyone their due in gold backed currency with the growth of the middle class, not to mention the wealth disparity between the middle and the top. It'll be 40% backed in gold, then when there's not enough gold, 20% backed, then 1%, then you'll end up with a de facto fiat money again. How will we ever fund the wars then?
You guys laud the rich, while it's the rich who won't allow the Euro or the Dollar to be backed with gold again.
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The World is more than just black and white ...
i am sick of this arguments that only see two fixed sides on every matter and nothing else..
it's either kaptialism or socialism/kommunism fiat money or gold standart saving or spending democrat or republican
break out of those goddamn dogmas that dictate your lives.
There is ALWAYS more than two options to solve problems... and also keep in mind none will produce the perfect result. EVERYTHING has ups and downs.
but its sooo much easier to control us if we think that way... so media is promoting this crazy way of thinking...
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On September 22 2011 18:10 TOloseGT wrote:
You guys laud the rich, while it's the rich who won't allow the Euro or the Dollar to be backed with gold again. No, it's the politicians, bankers and the select few for whom the government dictates success, they are the ones that don't want gold backed money.
And actually, gold backed money is excellent for middle class. It allows the middle class to work, save for their future (note: not speculatively invest in their future in hopes to simply keep their purchasing power, while risking their future) and gives them the assurance that their money will be there with the same value they got it with. It dictates higher interest rates, so once again, the workers and savers in the economy are rewarded.
Fiat currency rewards those in debt and punishes savers. Those politically connected and have those that have access to large amounts of credit benefit the most. It is the bane of the middle class and the primary cause of degradation of the standard of living in the recent decades.
Once again, time will show who is correct, but as every central bank is a net buyer of gold for the first time in decades; the world reserve currency is being left out of international trade agreements in favor of tangible assets; the euro is on the verge of failing; the largest holder of dollars (China) has accused the US of already defaulting on its debt by money printing and has subsequently been getting rid of the dollar in favor of tangible assets as quickly as it can without destroying its holdings; it does not look good for fiat money.
But then, we can cover our eyes and ears in order to ignore the world around us and say paper isn't failing and that it is better than money than gold, which has worked since the beginning of time.
Edit: Just read that Swiss exchange is accepting gold as payment for securities. http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/Swiss_first_to_use_gold_in_securities_payments.html?cid=31167922
I love the quote, "Gold is the new currency." Well, it's the new old currency and the fiat experiment is once again failing.
It won't matter if there is no official gold backed money. The market will decide. When business exchanges gradually shift away from using fiat money (as I have shown above they already are), and people just start using gold and refusing to take fiat money (as they already are) it won't matter one iota what governments have to say about it.
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I'm glad my country is not in the EU. Really the only solution for Greece to lose they're depts is to drop the euro and make their own money, but the EU won't let them. I don't remember where i read this but I think I am right somehow?
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On September 22 2011 20:36 tonning wrote: I'm glad my country is not in the EU. Really the only solution for Greece to lose they're depts is to drop the euro and make their own money, but the EU won't let them. I don't remember where i read this but I think I am right somehow? Well they can't afford their debt, and because they are on the euro, they can't print money. So the thought process is for them to be able to print their own money again to pay their debt. In order to do this they must leave the euro.
The other choice they have is defaulting. However, the printing of their own money in order to pay would be a technical default.
The crux of the issue is: If you were to sell me a television, and I drew you on a piece of notebook paper money to pay for it, you wouldn't want to take it. If I said, "It's ok, I have decided I am not using the regularly ordained money any longer, I have seceded from it, but trust me, this money I made is really worth something," I think you would be pretty pissed, try to get your money that you are owed in a legal manner and sure as hell never sell me anything again.
That would be the issue with Greece.
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On September 22 2011 20:36 tonning wrote: I'm glad my country is not in the EU. Really the only solution for Greece to lose they're depts is to drop the euro and make their own money, but the EU won't let them. I don't remember where i read this but I think I am right somehow? The crisis in Greece is ultimately not a crisis of the Euro but part of a crisis of public budgets all around the world. Public debt in the western world explodes, and Greece is just an extreme example.
The Euro was a catalyst for the crisis, however: The Euro allowed the Greek government to lend money very cheaply (which is part of the reason why the country wanted to join). However, the euro also kept inflation down to a level way below what Greece was historically used to (which is part of why lenders were keen on giving the Greeks fresh money).
This all led to their public debt exploding (which could of course have been avoided, the temptation to make debt was just higher).
Speculations that the swedish, norwegian or danish economies are better off without the Euro are totally unfounded as of yet. These countries may avoid any solidarity with the southern european countries in the future, however. European problems don't bother them much.
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http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/08/15/653576/desperate-measures-for-really-desperate-times/
an article that finally points a way to a possible solution, that i see, for our money system.. actually it would be just a beginning ... but better than nothing.
that is negative interest... point 9 in the article... the stuff be4 that are just direct lending of the FED (stupid)
if you encounter that idea and have no clue about the topic you will most probably call it crazy.... but anyway..
ofc this wouldn't work with a gold standart.. but thats not the only solution... fiat money with those and other changes could work too.
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IDK how this will shake out. Not a 'effing clue.
But over the weekend the Dexia news hit..., folks were doing the math that they will be nationalized...but Belgium dosen't have the capacity to absorb their share of the bank.
Somebody has figured out something...and the answer is bad.
In the last hour here in the USA... EVERYTHING in the banking sector within the last hour has taken a 5% across the board hit.
Everyone was planning on Greece to fall first. But if Dexia goes right now... Soc Gen is going down to. And can France/Belgium deal with that?
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On the general topic of economy I was very surprised that the new socialistic government in Denmark is proposing a "significant decrease of the highest tax-bracket" on work, removing some taxes and insisting on increasing the neutrality of the government in choosing the specifics of scientific support. That is pretty radical, man! Where is the ideologically socialistic in that? Let us hope they are not stretching it too far into that unknown territory and totally loose control over the economy!
No, Denmark is not in the Euro, but is like Iceland very dependant on it and they depend on Denmark and Iceland too to some extent! The problem so far has been that northern countries like benelux, scandinavia and Germany to some degree need totally different economic tools in use at the moment than the southern european countries. The problems in Greece are very bad. They have a 5,5 % negative growth which is extremely bad. At the same time 67,3 % of the population thinks they have to default. If they default most of southern europe is almost at a default too because of their investments in Greece. Therefore the Euro is in a bigger dilemma than most people imagine.
Denmark will be voting on removing some of the special excemptions towards the legal cooperations and the military cooperations in 2012 as far as I know. Joining the Euro is not even close to a topic since the crisis has started and almost anyone with or without economic knowledge has turned against it.
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People from the U.S.: Please shut the fuck up with the putting down Keynesian economics. Your own country is in far worse trouble for your 'trickle down' ridiculous ideas, which has more in common with slave labor, so I'm genuinely offended by you guys telling us we have bad economic policies. Thank you.
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On September 22 2011 20:26 AcuWill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 18:10 TOloseGT wrote:
You guys laud the rich, while it's the rich who won't allow the Euro or the Dollar to be backed with gold again. No, it's the politicians, bankers and the select few for whom the government dictates success, they are the ones that don't want gold backed money. And actually, gold backed money is excellent for middle class. It allows the middle class to work, save for their future (note: not speculatively invest in their future in hopes to simply keep their purchasing power, while risking their future) and gives them the assurance that their money will be there with the same value they got it with. It dictates higher interest rates, so once again, the workers and savers in the economy are rewarded. Fiat currency rewards those in debt and punishes savers. Those politically connected and have those that have access to large amounts of credit benefit the most. It is the bane of the middle class and the primary cause of degradation of the standard of living in the recent decades. Once again, time will show who is correct, but as every central bank is a net buyer of gold for the first time in decades; the world reserve currency is being left out of international trade agreements in favor of tangible assets; the euro is on the verge of failing; the largest holder of dollars (China) has accused the US of already defaulting on its debt by money printing and has subsequently been getting rid of the dollar in favor of tangible assets as quickly as it can without destroying its holdings; it does not look good for fiat money. But then, we can cover our eyes and ears in order to ignore the world around us and say paper isn't failing and that it is better than money than gold, which has worked since the beginning of time. Edit: Just read that Swiss exchange is accepting gold as payment for securities. http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/Swiss_first_to_use_gold_in_securities_payments.html?cid=31167922I love the quote, "Gold is the new currency." Well, it's the new old currency and the fiat experiment is once again failing. It won't matter if there is no official gold backed money. The market will decide. When business exchanges gradually shift away from using fiat money (as I have shown above they already are), and people just start using gold and refusing to take fiat money (as they already are) it won't matter one iota what governments have to say about it.
All hail China, South Africa, USA, Australia and Russia, their gold reserves makes us bow our heads and leave our countries for the true sake of life... http://www.goldsheetlinks.com/production.htmhttp://www.goldsheetlinks.com/production.htm
Make a currency hinge on huge differences in the underground throughout the world, with the production being dangerous and ecologically unsustainable, no possibilities of regulating before it is almost mined out (more wants more) and no way to ensure a fair transformation of todays currency to tomorrows...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_mining http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_mining
I am just saying...
Edit: Besides this is about the EURO and the trouble brewing if you want to reply do so in a more on-topic thread.
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Well, the official word is now that Dexia will be bailed out.
Wall Street Journal
Here are the questions I have... and everyone else should have.
1) Wasn't all this fixed in 2008? 2) How is it still legal to lie about your assets? 3) It there even the remotest chance anyone will go to jail?
See this Bloomberg article that explains how Dexia, Societe Generale, and BNP Paribas are refusing to mark down their bad Greek debt. (because doing so will break them)
Looks like Europe is down a solid 4% again today.
Here is the US, looks like Morgan Stanley is shaping up to be a casualty as well.
But yesterday...when all this really gained speed at around 1:00 PM East Coast time... I was over in our break room flipping through the news channels. And this is what we had on the TV. Channel 1 - The Amanda Knox trial. Channel 2 - Conrad Murry trial (Michael Jackson death). Channel 3 - Herman Cain meeting with Donald Trump.
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So it looks like the plan is going to be tearing Dexia asunder and selling off the good parts, with the toxic debt getting isolated in a zombie bank backed by the French and Belgian governments. + Show Spoiler +By Matthew Dalton
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
LUXEMBOURG (Dow Jones)--Belgian government ministers are meeting Tuesday evening to discuss the fate of Dexia S.A. (DEXB.BT), as the bank's executives scramble to put together a restructuring plan in the face of a market onslaught that has effectively turned the once high-flying global lender into a penny stock.
Discussions between Dexia, the French and Belgian governments and local Belgian entities with a major stake in Dexia are honing in on a break-up of the bank, said a person close to the discussions.
The plan would likely see Dexia sell off its asset management business and DenizBank, its fast-growing retail bank in Turkey, the person said. Its Paris-based public finance arm, Dexia Municipal Agency, would be sold to the French savings banks Caisse des Depots & Consignations, or CDC, and La Banque Postale, people familiar with the matter said.
And EUR95 billion in "legacy" assets--including about EUR20 billion of bonds from troubled euro-zone countries--would be placed in a "bad bank" backed by guarantees from the Belgian and French governments.
The Belgian retail banking business would be left as a stand-alone business.
"It will be drastic," the person said. "Any other solution won't be accepted by financial markets."
The most difficult issue will likely be how to divide the burden of guaranteeing the assets and debt of the bond portfolio between the Belgian and French governments.
Belgian Prime Minister Yves Leterme, Finance Minister Didier Reynders and other ministers are to meet at 1800 GMT, a spokesman for Leterme said. Representatives of Dexia will not be present, the spokesman said.
Dexia has spent the last three years trying to undo a decade of over-zealous lending to governments across the world, using volatile wholesale funding. The seize-up of financial markets in the aftermath of the Lehman Brothers' collapse exposed deep flaws in Dexia's business model; the bank has since tried to remake itself as a retail bank focused in Belgium and Turkey, home to its fast-growing DenizBank subsidiary.
But the lingering effects of the 2008 crisis and the emergence of major problems in the euro-zone periphery caught up with Dexia. The bank accumulated large holdings of euro-zone sovereign debt during its decade-long lending spree: about EUR21 billion in debt from the troubled periphery, including EUR3.8 billion of Greek bonds and EUR13.4 billion of Italian bonds. Dexia's total holdings of Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Irish debt is nearly three times the book value of its equity, one of the biggest exposures to the euro-zone periphery of any bank in the world.
Nor has Dexia solved its funding problems since 2008. The bank has sharply reduced its need for short-term funding from EUR260 billion in October 2008 to EUR96 billion at the end of June. The bank has been methodically paring its bloated balance sheet: EUR518 billion at the end of June, down from about EUR650 billion three years ago.
But customer deposits, the most stable source of funding, are still only 25% of total liabilities. That means Dexia must depend heavily on issuing covered bonds--which link borrowing to specific high-quality assets--and regular long-term bonds. The current market turmoil makes either option extremely difficult, particularly for a bank like Dexia with large exposure to the euro-zone periphery. It looks like we're gonna see these grandiose "roll up a failing bank" plans drawn up a couple of years ago after Lehman in action for the first time.
I'm actually curious how it'll go.
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On October 04 2011 04:34 HoldenR wrote: People from the U.S.: Please shut the fuck up with the putting down Keynesian economics. Your own country is in far worse trouble for your 'trickle down' ridiculous ideas, which has more in common with slave labor, so I'm genuinely offended by you guys telling us we have bad economic policies. Thank you.
Don't lash out in anger.
We are in huge trouble in Europe. I know it's popular to hate on America. I live in Holland i know we all feel like we know better.
But the truth is we are in huge danger of a 2nd recession whilst the results of our spending cuts have yet to hit. When that 2nd recession comes around we will be feeling it hard.
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On October 04 2011 04:34 HoldenR wrote: People from the U.S.: Please shut the fuck up with the putting down Keynesian economics. Your own country is in far worse trouble for your 'trickle down' ridiculous ideas, which has more in common with slave labor, so I'm genuinely offended by you guys telling us we have bad economic policies. Thank you.
Dear European: Americans are allowed to discuss European politics. Just as Europeans are allowed to discuss American politics.
Thank you.
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