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On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone.
I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England
Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now
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On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now
Leave UK out of it, take benelux + Estonia instead and we'd have the cream of the crop of EU.
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So Berlusconi will resign after the EU economic reforms are passed.
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On November 09 2011 04:18 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So Berlusconi will resign after the EU economic reforms are passed.
Just read this and all I can say is: finally. Wise decision by him.
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Great news! About time!
I really hope he doesn't use his communication power to appear as a hero with this choice...
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On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now
Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3.
It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains.
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On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains.
That was the United Nations, the EU was indeed to facilitate trade.
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On November 09 2011 05:31 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains. That was the United Nations, the EU was indeed to facilitate trade.
Both, actually. You rarely make war on your greatest trading partners.
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On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains.
And suprisingly it's been a long time since people have hated the southern countries this much.
Ooh well it's too late anyway. Italy is slipping, it had been on the fence for a while and it's falling off the wrong side now. End of the line, 2nd recession, thanks for that, hope the socialist paradise was worth it.
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On November 09 2011 05:33 Undrass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:31 Deleuze wrote:On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains. That was the United Nations, the EU was indeed to facilitate trade. Both, actually. You rarely make war on your greatest trading partners.
Have you never read Catch 22? 
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On November 09 2011 05:34 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains. And suprisingly it's been a long time since people have hated the southern countries this much. Ooh well it's too late anyway. Italy is slipping, it had been on the fence for a while and it's falling off the wrong side now. End of the line, 2nd recession, thanks for that, hope the socialist paradise was worth it.
You are wrong, Berlusconi is a communist.
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On November 09 2011 05:31 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains. That was the United Nations, the EU was indeed to facilitate trade.
I wasn't talking about the reasons for its original formation, I was talking about the reason we need it.
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On November 09 2011 05:41 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:34 zalz wrote:On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains. And suprisingly it's been a long time since people have hated the southern countries this much. Ooh well it's too late anyway. Italy is slipping, it had been on the fence for a while and it's falling off the wrong side now. End of the line, 2nd recession, thanks for that, hope the socialist paradise was worth it. You are wrong, Berlusconi is a communist.
He's pretty right wing by Italian standards.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On November 09 2011 05:43 Serthius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:31 Deleuze wrote:On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains. That was the United Nations, the EU was indeed to facilitate trade. I wasn't talking about the reasons for its original formation, I was talking about the reason we need it.
I wasn't too worry about mutual violence. Germans, Greeks, Italians, and the rest will be at each other's throats in no time. In fact, EU might be facilitating the animosity thanks to the bail-out parade.
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On November 09 2011 05:31 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains. That was the United Nations, the EU was indeed to facilitate trade.
Wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_European_Union
You are only indirectly correct, see below quote:
On November 09 2011 05:33 Undrass wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 05:31 Deleuze wrote:On November 09 2011 05:27 Serthius wrote:On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Yeah, and then in 50 years or so, the north and the south can fight each other in WW3. It may be diffcult for us who grew up in the post cold war era to grasp, but the raison d'etre of the EU is to stop us Europeans from murdering each other, not economic gains. That was the United Nations, the EU was indeed to facilitate trade. Both, actually. You rarely make war on your greatest trading partners.
Edit: And just to clarify, I'm not saying that the current goal of the EU is to avoid war. The current goal of the EU is common policymaking and the development of efficient trade and effective economics (doing real good at that last part) between memberstates.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Can anyone tell me how responsible Berlusconi is for this crises? Did his government completely overspend in the last couple of years?
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On November 09 2011 12:27 Tien wrote:
Can anyone tell me how responsible Berlusconi is for this crises? Did his government completely overspend in the last couple of years?
Italy's government debt constantly hovered between 100 and 120% of the GDP since at least 25 years, it is a historical problem.
![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ngczZkrw340/S1IJABczNRI/AAAAAAAAQD0/FvNNrdu45XE/s1600/Italy+Government+Debt.png)
The situation escalates now for two reasons:
- The Italian economy stagnated in recent years and shows no sign of future growth.
- The bond market is going crazy, and the interest rates become unsustainable.
Other than that Italy still has the second largest manufacturing base in Europe and the level of private indebtedness is pretty low.
The Italian situation is difficult to handle: austerity measures could hamper the desperately needed growth. The role of the government is limited to be honest
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Italy is an integral part of the European Union, culturally and economically, which is why I am against a "northern club".
I'll freely admit that italian politicians are ridiculous, and that southern italy is an economic mess as well as a hub of corruption (and they stole my wallet in Napoli, I don't take that lightly). But still I can't imagine Italy being excluded from the european community.
Also Italians played a major role in all of the european institutions and organizations I've got into contact with, and I have come to value their contributions.
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On November 03 2011 20:03 Minastir wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Leave UK out of it, take benelux + Estonia instead and we'd have the cream of the crop of EU.
No love for us 
On a more serious matter: a northern "EU" (better: Euro) WOULD HAVE been the best solution, nevertheless I'm of the opinion that there's no way to throw the south out of it without inflicting very serious damage to the whole financial industry. Don't forget that all of the banks are "linked" very closely by interbank trading.
On November 09 2011 17:42 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 12:27 Tien wrote:
Can anyone tell me how responsible Berlusconi is for this crises? Did his government completely overspend in the last couple of years? Italy's government debt constantly hovered between 100 and 120% of the GDP since at least 25 years, it is a historical problem. The situation escalates now for two reasons: - The Italian economy stagnated in recent years and shows no sign of future growth. - The bond market is going crazy, and the interest rates become unsustainable. Other than that Italy still has the second largest manufacturing base in Europe and the level of private indebtedness is pretty low. The Italian situation is difficult to handle: austerity measures could hamper the desperately needed growth. The role of the government is limited to be honest
You didn't name the most important reason, even though those you've mentioned are also significant: Italy can no longer devalue their currency now that they have the Euro. Italy was/is probably even worse suited for the Euro than Greece, their whole economic system has always been pretty dependend on constant devaluation. Which - let's be clear about that - isn't a bad thing in itself if everybody is aware of that. If somebody wants to export more than import (say Germany) it needs someone to import more than export (say Italy), that's a very basic logic.
But since Italy joined the Euro it would've had to severely restructure their whole approach, which - obviously - they didn't.
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On November 09 2011 17:51 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 20:03 Minastir wrote:On November 03 2011 02:37 HappyChris wrote:On November 03 2011 00:40 Yuljan wrote:On November 03 2011 00:28 Krehlmar wrote:
Greece ruined it, I can accept alot of excuses but mishandling your economy for 15+ years is one thing... but then doing this referendum just as it finally seemed to cool down?...
Greece ruined it. Not much more to say.
I hope, but doupt, that the EU will survive this and if not so we'll atleast create a newer and more refined version (hopefully) where stricter control is ushered. Yes centralization is the way to go people! United States of Europa. Im still in favor of a northern EU without the mediterranean countries. Just look at the difference how ireland handled the crisis and how greece did. We dont have enough incommon with the southern countries. Different mentalities only create trouble for everyone. I agree with that a union between Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,Germany,French,England Would be so much stronger then the crap we got in EU now Leave UK out of it, take benelux + Estonia instead and we'd have the cream of the crop of EU. No love for us On a more serious matter: a northern "EU" (better: Euro) WOULD HAVE been the best solution, nevertheless I'm of the opinion that there's no way to throw the south out of it without inflicting very serious damage to the whole financial industry. Don't forget that all of the banks are "linked" very closely by interbank trading.
I feel that the Northern Europe, that is, UK, France, Germany, and a few countries around them, have been historically and currently rich. The rest are honestly not doing that great comparably for the last 100 years. Perhaps the whole Euro thing was a bit too optimistic.
This is good news for the US and a lesser extend for Canada though. A weak Euro implies that most countries will still prefer USD as foreign currency investment.
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EPT
