I think in theory, the ECB does have some nice things going on for it (like only using monetary policy to target inflation), but the organization of it will be it's downfall. When it first started with primarily homogeneous W.European countries, having consensus voting worked a lot better. The difference in ideas wasn't so drastic as it is now. However, once they started integrating transitional economies before those countries even stabilized, they jeopardized the Euro. Not only is the Euro vulnerable to those countries economically, but they became vulnerable to them at a policy making level. Double whammy without the recourse to protect themselves. If the Euro survives the next two decades, hopefully they will have learnt something from trying to expand too fast and ignorantly accepting countries left and right. Good luck to the Euro.
The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 2
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gchan
United States654 Posts
I think in theory, the ECB does have some nice things going on for it (like only using monetary policy to target inflation), but the organization of it will be it's downfall. When it first started with primarily homogeneous W.European countries, having consensus voting worked a lot better. The difference in ideas wasn't so drastic as it is now. However, once they started integrating transitional economies before those countries even stabilized, they jeopardized the Euro. Not only is the Euro vulnerable to those countries economically, but they became vulnerable to them at a policy making level. Double whammy without the recourse to protect themselves. If the Euro survives the next two decades, hopefully they will have learnt something from trying to expand too fast and ignorantly accepting countries left and right. Good luck to the Euro. | ||
Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 01 2010 16:14 TanGeng wrote: lol that's pretty amazing. I'll join up when the movement gets large enough. ok not to de-rail the thread, back to about the Euro going down the tubes or countries moving off of the Euro. It's probably not going to happen because such a move to have such a devastating loss of purchasing power that no one in Greece could stomach it. It might even be worse than the current rioting and striking. So if Germany will hold steady then there will be no bailout, and I think that there is enough legal impetus to do nothing for Greece. It's not just Greece, but PIIGS. Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, and Spain. I hope Spain does de-centralize as I think it would be far better. If there are any An-Syndicalists out there, they were doing quite well for themselves in the early 20th Century in Spain, even though I whole-heartidly reject their system, but it is voluntary. | ||
Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 01 2010 16:20 PobTheCad wrote: depends if they are also willing to bail out portugal , spain and more eastern european sountries in the future I'm wondering if anyone here is even pontificating on the consequence if they actually do bail out these countries. As soon as they do bail them out (if they do), it'll create a chain reaction encouraging worse and worse behavior. Moral hazard is a son of a bitch. Tragedy of the Commons, et. al. | ||
Choros
Australia530 Posts
If you have a strong economy with lots of capital, manufacturing and exports, like Germany for example you will naturally have a higher value currency which allows you to enjoy the purchasing power that your strong economy provides by being able to cheaply import and also go on holidays etc. If however you have a weaker less well developed economy like Greece or Spain then you will naturally have a weaker currency that makes imports less competitive and exports more competitive thus improving your balance of trade and also encourages tourism which is important for Greece or Spain. If you apply a strong currency to a weak economy, i.e the Euro to Greece, Portugal or Slovakia then it will necessarily undermine that nations economy. You may be able to get along regardless but it will certainly make life difficult for you unnecessarily. It is worth pointing out that the Euro has been under sustained attack by the US and NGFP (Non Government Financial Pirates) like George Sorrows among others. Goldman Sachs has been using derivatives to help keep Greece's economic problems off balance sheet while simultaneously betting that Greece will collapse. In this way problems are disguised until they reach such a level that collapse is inevitable and you set yourself up to profit from the collapse, Goldman did the same thing with housing market derivatives in the US. In 1992 George Sorrows made over a billion dollars by attacking the British pound then profiting from short sales. Sorrows in the king Pirate, traveling around the world looting entire countries through financial attacks. The reason that the US and NGFP's are attacking the Euro at this point (other than direct profit) is to distract attention from the much more serious problems in the US. The dollar was hanging on crucial support levels looking like it was going to fall significantly and then this happened giving the US dollar a new lease on life in the short run. The Spanish govt recently remarked they were under massive attack from speculators. This was criticised as a way to distract the Spanish from the failure of the Spanish govt and this is true however the claim that Spain is under financial attack is more certainly true. In spite of speculative attacks and the like it will always be underlying fundamentals that determines the outcome in the end. The economies of europe are screwed imo. Even Germany which is the strongest in Europe has been giving out tens of billions of dollars in tax cuts, and Poland is selling off profit making national assets to pay down debt. Govts reducing their revenue will tend to increase the govt deficit and with policies like this in my view every major Govt in Europe will ultimately go bankrupt and the Euro and quite possibly the entire European union will cease to exist. Good riddance in my opinion, this will give Greece and other economies a better shot at development and do not forget the European Union was founded by the Nazi Dutch Prince Berhard in 1952 but it was at that time called the 'European Coal and Steel community' as people were touchy about loosing national sovereignty in the aftermath of ww2. The Governments of Europe are in my view mismanaging their economies pretty much across the board copying the same policies the US have been following that have ruined their economy as well and this will certainly pressure the Euro over time. The Euro also ruins the capacity of individual governments in Europe to finance spending via the mint as a last resort. Did you know that Arizona is by far the most solvent US state and it happens to be the only US state that controls its own bank, this is not a coincidence. Loosing control of the mint to the private bankers of the Fed under the puppet Woodrow Wilson in 1913 was the start of the slide to national bankruptcy in the US. Rumor has it there will be some changes next month but who knows what that would be. If I was running the show I would create an entire new currency with a lower value and let all the weaker economies use that currency, then cancel all Euro obligations of the economies involved, that should give their nations a new lease on life. | ||
fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
I personally wonder if the whole Greece situation is somewhat of a ploy to keep the dollar/pound alive as long as possible. If the euro looks weak it makes the dollar look better. Greece is pretty small and its effect on psychology is larger than its monetary effect. | ||
Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
I think I'll wait to come up with my opinions on the issue until I've seen what the people directly actually think. | ||
Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 01 2010 16:49 Nightmarjoo wrote: lol at a discussion about the euro involving zero europeans. I think I'll wait to come up with my opinions on the issue until I've seen what the people directly actually think. The Euro has a direct influence on the Dollar, and vice versa. It is enivitable though, that all fiat currencies crash. When you have the power to print up money, that power will always and eventually be used, especially by the political class seeking to get elected. Democracy is one of the worse forms of Government for precisely this reason. It is as if every person in the country becomes a robber looking to loot from their neighbors. Alexis De Tocqueville: A democratic government is the only one in which those who vote for a tax can escape the obligation to pay it. The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Thomas Jefferson: A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. It is not a simple cursory view of the situation which allows you to gain insight, but a systemic broach and flaw of the system itself that always leads to these results. History is riddled with the cyclic events. Will we ever learn? Perhaps not, but perhaps there is still hope left, and perhaps in the wake of this Europe may regain some sense of its Classical Liberal past. There are some great Political Economists in Europe right now, so yes, I'm watching with baited breath :p | ||
ghermination
United States2851 Posts
On March 01 2010 16:42 Choros wrote: The Euro is in my view doomed as a currency. The Euro was doomed right from the second that it was created. This is because you cannot apply a single currency strength to radically different economies (particularly a strong currency imposed upon weak economies). If you have a strong economy with lots of capital, manufacturing and exports, like Germany for example you will naturally have a higher value currency which allows you to enjoy the purchasing power that your strong economy provides by being able to cheaply import and also go on holidays etc. If however you have a weaker less well developed economy like Greece or Spain then you will naturally have a weaker currency that makes imports less competitive and exports more competitive thus improving your balance of trade and also encourages tourism which is important for Greece or Spain. If you apply a strong currency to a weak economy, i.e the Euro to Greece, Portugal or Slovakia then it will necessarily undermine that nations economy. You may be able to get along regardless but it will certainly make life difficult for you unnecessarily. It is worth pointing out that the Euro has been under sustained attack by the US and NGFP (Non Government Financial Pirates) like George Sorrows among others. Goldman Sachs has been using derivatives to help keep Greece's economic problems off balance sheet while simultaneously betting that Greece will collapse. In this way problems are disguised until they reach such a level that collapse is inevitable and you set yourself up to profit from the collapse, Goldman did the same thing with housing market derivatives in the US. In 1992 George Sorrows made over a billion dollars by attacking the British pound then profiting from short sales. Sorrows in the king Pirate, traveling around the world looting entire countries through financial attacks. The reason that the US and NGFP's are attacking the Euro at this point (other than direct profit) is to distract attention from the much more serious problems in the US. The dollar was hanging on crucial support levels looking like it was going to fall significantly and then this happened giving the US dollar a new lease on life in the short run. The Spanish govt recently remarked they were under massive attack from speculators. This was criticised as a way to distract the Spanish from the failure of the Spanish govt and this is true however the claim that Spain is under financial attack is more certainly true. In spite of speculative attacks and the like it will always be underlying fundamentals that determines the outcome in the end. The economies of europe are screwed imo. Even Germany which is the strongest in Europe has been giving out tens of billions of dollars in tax cuts, and Poland is selling off profit making national assets to pay down debt. Govts reducing their revenue will tend to increase the govt deficit and with policies like this in my view every major Govt in Europe will ultimately go bankrupt and the Euro and quite possibly the entire European union will cease to exist. Good riddance in my opinion, this will give Greece and other economies a better shot at development and do not forget the European Union was founded by the Nazi Dutch Prince Berhard in 1952 but it was at that time called the 'European Coal and Steel community' as people were touchy about loosing national sovereignty in the aftermath of ww2. The Governments of Europe are in my view mismanaging their economies pretty much across the board copying the same policies the US have been following that have ruined their economy as well and this will certainly pressure the Euro over time. The Euro also ruins the capacity of individual governments in Europe to finance spending via the mint as a last resort. Did you know that Arizona is by far the most solvent US state and it happens to be the only US state that controls its own bank, this is not a coincidence. Loosing control of the mint to the private bankers of the Fed under the puppet Woodrow Wilson in 1913 was the start of the slide to national bankruptcy in the US. Rumor has it there will be some changes next month but who knows what that would be. If I was running the show I would create an entire new currency with a lower value and let all the weaker economies use that currency, then cancel all Euro obligations of the economies involved, that should give their nations a new lease on life. I honestly would like to be able to post more than this, but seriously [citation needed] | ||
StarsPride
United States364 Posts
unless they do something retarded.... good god | ||
Boblion
France8043 Posts
ECB's goal to maintain price stability is the biggest I mean what the point to have an euro = 1.5$ if everything is 1.5x more expensive than in the US ? The euro can fall back to 1$ i don't care. If you live here you don't need a strong euro. Sucks for travellers though. Also lol @ accepting some countries in the EU. Thanks god we will have another good reason now to no accept Turkey, Urkraine or whatever country the idiots in Bruxelles ( and Washington lol ) wanted to welcome. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
It's their own damn fault. Look in the mirror for the blame. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15314 Posts
It really sucks to know your tax euros are being used to bail out bankrupt countries that have forged their balances for years. On the other hand as a frequent traveler I enjoy a strong Euro way to much to want it to go down because of them. Lose-lose. | ||
Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 01 2010 17:39 zatic wrote: Thanks for making my Vegas flights expensive Greece. It really sucks to know your tax euros are being used to bail out bankrupt countries that have forged their balances for years. On the other hand as a frequent traveler I enjoy a strong Euro way to much to want it to go down because of them. Lose-lose. What is your feeling on Portugal, Spain, Ireland, and Italy, which are in as worse or worse condition than Greece? Not only that, let's go further and look at Japan, GB, and America, which are arguably, much worse off than PIIGS. What is the common theme amongst these countries.....? I will leave that up to the individual to look into themselves. | ||
Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
Greece isn't a very significant economy in the Euro zone. Spain, on the other hand, is, but it doesn't have a dysfunctional system like greece. If any mediterranean economy can keep pace with northern and central europe in the long term, it's the spanish one. And Italy will find a way. They always do. What I know is that the Euro was overvalued against the Dollar and the Yuan, and this was unsustainable, especially for export-oriented nations like germany, so atleast that should get better now. | ||
Vernom
Spain374 Posts
On March 01 2010 15:27 TanGeng wrote:Painful but worse would be bailing Italy and Portugal and watching Spain disintegrate into three or four countries. Spain still might disintegrate into multiple countries regardless. Oh, I guess EEUU will lose Texas and more states, right? | ||
fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123051100709638419.html As if Things Weren't Bad Enough, Russian Professor Predicts End of U.S. + Show Spoiler + MOSCOW -- For a decade, Russian academic Igor Panarin has been predicting the U.S. will fall apart in 2010. For most of that time, he admits, few took his argument -- that an economic and moral collapse will trigger a civil war and the eventual breakup of the U.S. -- very seriously. Now he's found an eager audience: Russian state media. [Prof. Panarin] Igor Panarin In recent weeks, he's been interviewed as much as twice a day about his predictions. "It's a record," says Prof. Panarin. "But I think the attention is going to grow even stronger." Prof. Panarin, 50 years old, is not a fringe figure. A former KGB analyst, he is dean of the Russian Foreign Ministry's academy for future diplomats. He is invited to Kremlin receptions, lectures students, publishes books, and appears in the media as an expert on U.S.-Russia relations. But it's his bleak forecast for the U.S. that is music to the ears of the Kremlin, which in recent years has blamed Washington for everything from instability in the Middle East to the global financial crisis. Mr. Panarin's views also fit neatly with the Kremlin's narrative that Russia is returning to its rightful place on the world stage after the weakness of the 1990s, when many feared that the country would go economically and politically bankrupt and break into separate territories. A polite and cheerful man with a buzz cut, Mr. Panarin insists he does not dislike Americans. But he warns that the outlook for them is dire. "There's a 55-45% chance right now that disintegration will occur," he says. "One could rejoice in that process," he adds, poker-faced. "But if we're talking reasonably, it's not the best scenario -- for Russia." Though Russia would become more powerful on the global stage, he says, its economy would suffer because it currently depends heavily on the dollar and on trade with the U.S. Mr. Panarin posits, in brief, that mass immigration, economic decline, and moral degradation will trigger a civil war next fall and the collapse of the dollar. Around the end of June 2010, or early July, he says, the U.S. will break into six pieces -- with Alaska reverting to Russian control. In addition to increasing coverage in state media, which are tightly controlled by the Kremlin, Mr. Panarin's ideas are now being widely discussed among local experts. He presented his theory at a recent roundtable discussion at the Foreign Ministry. The country's top international relations school has hosted him as a keynote speaker. During an appearance on the state TV channel Rossiya, the station cut between his comments and TV footage of lines at soup kitchens and crowds of homeless people in the U.S. The professor has also been featured on the Kremlin's English-language propaganda channel, Russia Today. Mr. Panarin's apocalyptic vision "reflects a very pronounced degree of anti-Americanism in Russia today," says Vladimir Pozner, a prominent TV journalist in Russia. "It's much stronger than it was in the Soviet Union." Mr. Pozner and other Russian commentators and experts on the U.S. dismiss Mr. Panarin's predictions. "Crazy ideas are not usually discussed by serious people," says Sergei Rogov, director of the government-run Institute for U.S. and Canadian Studies, who thinks Mr. Panarin's theories don't hold water. Mr. Panarin's résumé includes many years in the Soviet KGB, an experience shared by other top Russian officials. His office, in downtown Moscow, shows his national pride, with pennants on the wall bearing the emblem of the FSB, the KGB's successor agency. It is also full of statuettes of eagles; a double-headed eagle was the symbol of czarist Russia. The professor says he began his career in the KGB in 1976. In post-Soviet Russia, he got a doctorate in political science, studied U.S. economics, and worked for FAPSI, then the Russian equivalent of the U.S. National Security Agency. He says he did strategy forecasts for then-President Boris Yeltsin, adding that the details are "classified." In September 1998, he attended a conference in Linz, Austria, devoted to information warfare, the use of data to get an edge over a rival. It was there, in front of 400 fellow delegates, that he first presented his theory about the collapse of the U.S. in 2010. "When I pushed the button on my computer and the map of the United States disintegrated, hundreds of people cried out in surprise," he remembers. He says most in the audience were skeptical. "They didn't believe me." At the end of the presentation, he says many delegates asked him to autograph copies of the map showing a dismembered U.S. He based the forecast on classified data supplied to him by FAPSI analysts, he says. He predicts that economic, financial and demographic trends will provoke a political and social crisis in the U.S. When the going gets tough, he says, wealthier states will withhold funds from the federal government and effectively secede from the union. Social unrest up to and including a civil war will follow. The U.S. will then split along ethnic lines, and foreign powers will move in. California will form the nucleus of what he calls "The Californian Republic," and will be part of China or under Chinese influence. Texas will be the heart of "The Texas Republic," a cluster of states that will go to Mexico or fall under Mexican influence. Washington, D.C., and New York will be part of an "Atlantic America" that may join the European Union. Canada will grab a group of Northern states Prof. Panarin calls "The Central North American Republic." Hawaii, he suggests, will be a protectorate of Japan or China, and Alaska will be subsumed into Russia. "It would be reasonable for Russia to lay claim to Alaska; it was part of the Russian Empire for a long time." A framed satellite image of the Bering Strait that separates Alaska from Russia like a thread hangs from his office wall. "It's not there for no reason," he says with a sly grin. Interest in his forecast revived this fall when he published an article in Izvestia, one of Russia's biggest national dailies. In it, he reiterated his theory, called U.S. foreign debt "a pyramid scheme," and predicted China and Russia would usurp Washington's role as a global financial regulator. Americans hope President-elect Barack Obama "can work miracles," he wrote. "But when spring comes, it will be clear that there are no miracles." The article prompted a question about the White House's reaction to Prof. Panarin's forecast at a December news conference. "I'll have to decline to comment," spokeswoman Dana Perino said amid much laughter. For Prof. Panarin, Ms. Perino's response was significant. "The way the answer was phrased was an indication that my views are being listened to very carefully," he says. The professor says he's convinced that people are taking his theory more seriously. People like him have forecast similar cataclysms before, he says, and been right. He cites French political scientist Emmanuel Todd. Mr. Todd is famous for having rightly forecast the demise of the Soviet Union -- 15 years beforehand. "When he forecast the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1976, people laughed at him," says Prof. Panarin. ![]() | ||
thunk
United States6233 Posts
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tenacity
1587 Posts
On March 01 2010 16:42 Choros wrote: Even Germany which is the strongest in Europe has been giving out tens of billions of dollars in tax cuts, and Poland is selling off profit making national assets to pay down debt. Govts reducing their revenue will tend to increase the govt deficit and with policies like this in my view every major Govt in Europe will ultimately go bankrupt and the Euro and quite possibly the entire European union will cease to exist. Good riddance in my opinion, this will give Greece and other economies a better shot at development and do not forget the European Union was founded by the Nazi Dutch Prince Berhard in 1952 but it was at that time called the 'European Coal and Steel community' as people were touchy about loosing national sovereignty in the aftermath of ww2. The Governments of Europe are in my view mismanaging their economies pretty much across the board copying the same policies the US have been following that have ruined their economy as well and this will certainly pressure the Euro over time. Ok man, I don't know where to start with your post LOL. I guess you do not have some serious sources to back up your opinion. Anyways, I just want to point some things: 1) "Even Germany which is the strongest in Europe has been giving out tens of billions of dollars in tax cuts, and Poland is selling off profit making national assets to pay down debt. Govts reducing their revenue will tend to increase the govt deficit and with policies like this in my view every major Govt in Europe will ultimately go bankrupt and the Euro and quite possibly the entire European union will cease to exist" This financial meltdown has been the biggest economic crisis since The Great Depression. Almost every country was affected and most countries reacted correctly by stimulute their economy by spending. (Keynes) - Even Germany which is the strongest in Europe has been giving out tens of billions of dollars in tax cuts No, they didn't. a)The German government spent the biggest amount of money to bail-out their banks. Following is a table of European government’s commitments. All figures are in billions of euros and include capital injections, guarantees granted, effective asset relief and liquidity interventions. United Kingdom 781.2 Denmark 593.9 Germany 554.2 Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aI.TvvSBYXBM b) They launched a stimulus packet, the biggest since world war ii. € 50bn!!! c) Yes, they current government debates about tax cuts, but it hasn't been decided yet. Govts reducing their revenue will tend to increase the govt deficit and with policies like this in my view every major Govt in Europe will ultimately go bankrupt and the Euro and quite possibly the entire European union will cease to exist. 1) No government wants to reduce their revenues, but it's a unparalled situation and we had to deal with it. Every government (US included ofc) spent a lot of money to prevent worse things from happening -> Naturally, the deficit increases. Now, what to do? You have two options as a government. a) spent more money to stimulate the economy with the big risk of making the deficit too big to bear or b) cut costs or sell property to get money. Good riddance in my opinion, this will give Greece and other economies a better shot at development Man this is so much nonsense. Without the EU, countries like Slovenia, Poland, Czech Republic and even Germany and France would be many years behind in regard to the economic capabilities. The Euro and the borderfree trade were the keys to the economic success. do not forget the European Union was founded by the Nazi Dutch Prince Berhard in 1952 but it was at that time called the 'European Coal and Steel community' as people were touchy about loosing national sovereignty in the aftermath of ww2. Wtf srsly?! Please learn something about the history of the EU. There you go: http://europa.eu/abc/history/index_en.htm The founders were i.e. Adenauer, Monnett, Schuman and their idea was to integrate the economies in order to prevent war. They who trade with each other and are depended upon each other, don't make war. That was their persuation. This was a stroke of geniuses! The Governments of Europe are in my view mismanaging their economies pretty much across the board copying the same policies the US have been following that have ruined their economy as well and this will certainly pressure the Euro over time. Not at all. Most European governments are not mismanaging their economies. take a look at germany, france, nld, sweden, poland and so forth. The problem is with the so called PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain), especially Spain and Greece. Greece i.e. deceived everyone in the government in regard to their actualy decifit. They faked their balance sheets for years and this is a scandal. Now they have a deficit of 13% of their GDP! (The allowed level of deficit is 3% of the annural GDP). Now they have to cut costs and thats what the EU told them to do and the Greece people go on strike. How ironic. Spain has an unemployment rate of 19%, which is ridiculously high. They need to get on track asap. The big question is now, how will the other countries react? I hope that they will, neverthess the cheating of some countries, help them but impose harsh restrictions in order to control that everything is going well and the money is well invested. It will take time for countries like greece to get rid of the huge deficiti, but the idea of united Europe is too important to let it die because of money or some greedy speculators. | ||
[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
Edit: My personal opinion is we should have never even created the Euro, it sucks horribly for the several reasons people have already pointed out in this thread. | ||
sh02hp0869
Sweden460 Posts
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