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Hey Tenacity how is that Stimulus working. We have 20% unemployment here in America. How's that debt looking? Can't raise interest rates because you would instantly default and make things much worse. Why is that a problem? Goddamn Government spending. Governments have no money of their own. They don't produce anything, they don't create anything, all they do is steal from one individual and give to another, or prevent companies from competing with the giant conglomerates.
Secondly, we are much worse off now than if we did nothing. Not only do we have the huge Moral Hazard of incentivizing bad behavior, but we now have a much worse debt. By keeping interest rates low (they have to), you continually experience booms and busts which get much worse much quicker. Eventually, what happens is hyper-inflation and the currency is destroyed and everyones wealth is destroyed in the process. Keynes was a fool. Stealing from me, and giving to you, does not increase wealth or create jobs. Producing goods that people want, produces job and wealth.
Digging a ditch, or building a road to nowhere creates nothing, but destroys wealth. Look at the cash for clunkers. They deliberately destroyed perfectly working cars that could have helped the poorer folks, but now since there are less used cars on the market, the price of used vehicles skyrocketed nearly 30% year over year. Yeah, real help there. Secondly, inflation prevents savings, and savings is the backbone of the entire economic engine. Savings is capital. Capital is the most important driver of jobs, growth, productivity, and increases in standard of living.
We are all getting poorer for what the Government is doing. Giving 24 Trillion to the banks, because the Government incentivized private gain and public loss is absurd. All of these institutions should have went bankrupt and the capital and assets liquidated to entreprenuers and businessman who are much more capable and efficient. Purposefully propping up the guys who don't know how to run jack shit, while screwing the guys who are much more efficient, and know how to run things is Orwellian.
It's been two years now. What appreciable growth have we seen? Anywhere. Cooked books by the Government everywhere. Government is Enron!
www.shadowstats.com
Read and weep. The social institutions in every western country and the systemic Neo-Mercantilism is going to destroy the West. I would recommend putting down Keynes and picking up Mises, Rothbard, Hulsmann, Bastiat, Rau, Say, Turgot, and Hoppe.
As for the EU being Free-Trade, that is a laughingstock. The EU is no different than the WTO, GATT, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. It's not free-trade, it's Neo-Mercantilism. Free-trade requires only a simple agreement that goods and labor can enter freely without regulation. No country currently has free-trade. Read some of these things.
If Euro and border-free were so good, why not just one World Government?
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On March 01 2010 18:43 sh02hp0869 wrote:
The 2 richest countries in Europe are the 2 that are not in EU, figures.
Swiss is such a superpower.
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On March 01 2010 18:43 sh02hp0869 wrote:
The 2 richest countries in Europe are the 2 that are not in EU, figures.
Oil and illicit earnings ftw, eh?
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On March 01 2010 18:49 tenacity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2010 18:43 sh02hp0869 wrote:
The 2 richest countries in Europe are the 2 that are not in EU, figures. Oil and illicit earnings ftw, eh?
They have Fed too.
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On March 01 2010 18:43 sh02hp0869 wrote:
The 2 richest countries in Europe are the 2 that are not in EU, figures.
Cause and effect. They are rich, that's why they didn't join. They are not rich because they didn't join. Also Luxembourg is richer per capita than Switzerland. And Norwegians are just lucky to have lots of oil and a small population.
Look at the actual developments, Iceland is begging to get into the EU and Switzerland has lots of trouble right now without EU support.
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On March 01 2010 18:48 Rothbardian wrote:Hey Tenacity how is that Stimulus working. We have 20% unemployment here in America. Unemployment Rate: 9.7% in Jan 2010 source: bureau of labor statistics. Still very high for the United States, I agree, but you have to see the bigger picture and what has happened. How's that debt looking? Can't raise interest rates because you would instantly default and make things much worse. Why is that a problem? Goddamn Government spending. The problem is the financial system and their gambling. Im far from being left, but we need regulations for the financial system. I still cant understand how some bankers can already start to gamble again and getting big boni. THEY have wasted trillions without creating any value, that is the problem! savings is the backbone of the entire economic engine. Savings is capital. Capital is the most important driver of jobs, growth, productivity, and increases in standard of living. Well the reality in the US has had been different and that's why you have such a problem now. Most people lived on pump, they spent more than they could affort and didn't save at all. Massive spending was the engine of your economy. The negative side-effect was accumulating a huge trade deficit and thus debts. We are all getting poorer for what the Government is doing. Giving 24 Trillion to the banks, because the Government incentivized private gain and public loss is absurd. All of these institutions should have went bankrupt If every bank failed, the US and parts of the world would have COLLAPSED and esp. those small entrepreneaurs would have been fit the hardest, because they can't accumulate big savings like the big corporations. As for the EU being Free-Trade, that is a laughingstock. The EU is no different than the WTO, GATT, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. It's not free-trade, it's Neo-Mercantilism. Free-trade requires only a simple agreement that goods and labor can enter freely without regulation. No country currently has free-trade. Read some of these things. Read about the "Schenken-Agreement" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_AgreementIf Euro and border-free were so good, why not just one World Government? Because most countries don't want to lose their national souveranity and a world government would be just unefficient and thus unrealistic.
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Why are so many people mentioning Poland here? We haven't been members of EU for all that long and we're not a part of Euro-zone.
All the problems with our economy (and general 'being behind in everything' ) were caused by USSR-influenced government which we had imposed on us for over 40 years (just like Eeastern Germany, but we haven't got a big brother to help us out earlier. That's why we joined the EU, to use it like EG used WG earlier and 'catch up' ). The bastards (our USSR-style government) even took a shitton of loans from all across the globe without any intent of paying them off, which they used to invest in all kinds of development like building new homes and giving them away for free (that's why many people remember this years as the best for Poland).
I've heared however that we managed to get our fees from this loans to not grow any more (Yay! A major success after slmost 40 years!). Still, this, and the remnants of the old ways present in our economy (central planning, wtf) and the rest of social/working life really took its toll on the speed of our development.
At least we're not cheating anyone as to the size of our deficit and other things like that. Damn you Greece!
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On March 01 2010 19:08 Manit0u wrote:
Why are so many people mentioning Poland here? We haven't been members of EU for all that long and we're not a part of Euro-zone.
All the problems with our economy (and general 'being behind in everything' ) were caused by USSR-influenced government which we had imposed on us for over 40 years (just like Eeastern Germany, but we haven't got a big brother to help us out earlier. That's why we joined the EU, to use it like EG used WG earlier and 'catch up' ). The bastards (our USSR-style government) even took a shitton of loans from all across the globe without any intent of paying them off, which they used to invest in all kinds of development like building new homes and giving them away for free (that's why many people remember this years as the best for Poland).
I've heared however that we managed to get our fees from this loans to not grow any more (Yay! A major success after slmost 40 years!). Still, this, and the remnants of the old ways present in our economy (central planning, wtf) and the rest of social/working life really took its toll on the speed of our development.
At least we're not cheating anyone as to the size of our deficit and other things like that. Damn you Greece!
Only one guy was mentioning Poland and I have no idea why. Poland is a role-model for economic development and what the EU is all about.You can be proud 
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On March 01 2010 19:01 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2010 18:43 sh02hp0869 wrote:
The 2 richest countries in Europe are the 2 that are not in EU, figures. Cause and effect. They are rich, that's why they didn't join. They are not rich because they didn't join. Also Luxembourg is richer per capita than Switzerland. And Norwegians are just lucky to have lots of oil and a small population. Look at the actual developments, Iceland is begging to get into the EU and Switzerland has lots of trouble right now without EU support.
Yeah, kinda.
Switzerland has problems with the EU because it's not in the EU because it does some stuff diffrent than the EU and is, among other reasons, therefore not in the EU . Now the EU (biggest Tradepartner and stuff) demands certain things to be done diffrently, some times for reason i fully understand and support, sometimes for reasons i really don't understand.
Well, nothing special here . Instead of having to make contracts with single entities it has to be done with the EU as a whole. Only a matter of time until Switzerland joins the EU anyway.. The question is if it will be in 10-20 or 50-100 years from now .
But i wonder where exactly Switzerland has *trouble* right now. We don't have more troubles than other entities with *special* Bank laws (and if you ask me we deserve these problems big time).
But other than that?
We nearly get swarmed by germans and other people from, so called, rich countries. If anything thats a good sign. Germany is whining because it has a *brain drain*.. Guess where many of these *brains* go?
Afaik switzerland as a whole has payed back some of it's debt in 2008 and it is, compared to other countries, not looking too bad for 2009 either (there will be debt, but not a very high one).
Btw: The Euro bashing from US-Citizens is kinda fun.. A few Years ago 1$ was about 1.50-1.60 Swiss Francs... Now it's basically 1$ = 1 Swiss Franc... You lost friggin 50%.
Btw2: If Switzerland has one problem right now it is, that the Swiss Franc is getting to Strong because the Euro, Pound and USD fail hard.
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On March 01 2010 19:10 tenacity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2010 19:08 Manit0u wrote:
Why are so many people mentioning Poland here? We haven't been members of EU for all that long and we're not a part of Euro-zone.
All the problems with our economy (and general 'being behind in everything' ) were caused by USSR-influenced government which we had imposed on us for over 40 years (just like Eeastern Germany, but we haven't got a big brother to help us out earlier. That's why we joined the EU, to use it like EG used WG earlier and 'catch up' ). The bastards (our USSR-style government) even took a shitton of loans from all across the globe without any intent of paying them off, which they used to invest in all kinds of development like building new homes and giving them away for free (that's why many people remember this years as the best for Poland).
I've heared however that we managed to get our fees from this loans to not grow any more (Yay! A major success after slmost 40 years!). Still, this, and the remnants of the old ways present in our economy (central planning, wtf) and the rest of social/working life really took its toll on the speed of our development.
At least we're not cheating anyone as to the size of our deficit and other things like that. Damn you Greece! Only one guy was mentioning Poland and I have no idea why. Poland is a role-model for economic development and what the EU is all about.You can be proud
I'd rather look to Hong Kong, and early America. They are role-models for economic development, granted they didn't go far enough and HK still has some very onerous regulations and anti-Free Market policies. As you can see the direct correlation of liberty to economic prosperity is self-evident. When you retain the fruit of your labor, you are more akin to work harder, and thus, become more productive. You are also more inclined to produce more goods, which the more goods produced and the greater productivity the cheaper everything becomes.
Also, since you keep the fruit of your labor capital isn't being siphoned from the productive to the non-productive, thereby the wealthier the society, the wealthier everyone is. You wouldn't want to be a poor man in Rwanda would you? Wouldn't you rather be considered poor in a country where the standard of living is 3, 4, 8 times more than everywhere else?
We have 70%+ of the land in the US not developed. We could easily just let people homestead this land and transform it into productive goods. Will that ever happen in our current system? Nope. Some economic growth stealing from me, and giving to the un-productive creates!
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On March 01 2010 19:28 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2010 19:01 Maenander wrote:On March 01 2010 18:43 sh02hp0869 wrote:
The 2 richest countries in Europe are the 2 that are not in EU, figures. Cause and effect. They are rich, that's why they didn't join. They are not rich because they didn't join. Also Luxembourg is richer per capita than Switzerland. And Norwegians are just lucky to have lots of oil and a small population. Look at the actual developments, Iceland is begging to get into the EU and Switzerland has lots of trouble right now without EU support. Yeah, kinda. Switzerland has problems with the EU because it's not in the EU because it does some stuff diffrent than the EU and is, among other reasons, therefore not in the EU . Now the EU (biggest Tradepartner and stuff) demands certain things to be done diffrently, some times for reason i fully understand and support, sometimes for reasons i really don't understand. Well, nothing special here . Instead of having to make contracts with single entities it has to be done with the EU as a whole. Only a matter of time until Switzerland joins the EU anyway.. The question is if it will be in 10-20 or 50-100 years from now . But i wonder where exactly Switzerland has *trouble* right now. We don't have more troubles than other entities with *special* Bank laws (and if you ask me we deserve these problems big time). But other than that? We nearly get swarmed by germans and other people from, so called, rich countries. If anything thats a good sign. Germany is whining because it has a *brain drain*.. Guess where many of these *brains* go? Afaik switzerland as a whole has payed back some of it's debt in 2008 and it is, compared to other countries, not looking too bad for 2009 either (there will be debt, but not a very high one). Btw: The Euro bashing from US-Citizens is kinda fun.. A few Years ago 1$ was about 1.50-1.60 Swiss Francs... Now it's basically 1$ = 1 Swiss Franc... You lost friggin 50%. Btw2: If Switzerland has one problem right now it is, that the Swiss Franc is getting to Strong because the Euro, Pound and USD fail hard.
Yeah, wouldn't want a higher standard of living...That would be horrible.
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[QUOTE]On March 01 2010 19:47 Rothbardian wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 01 2010 19:10 tenacity wrote:
Poland is a role-model for economic development and what the EU is all about.You can be proud
I'd rather look to Hong Kong, and early America.
Ok, I should have said "within the EU, similar to Slovenia and so on." You cannot compare Poland to HK or early America, because of its history. There was WW2 and the soviets and Poland has been making a great development. I guess we both agree on that.
We have 70%+ of the land in the US not developed. We could easily just let people homestead this land and transform it into productive goods. Will that ever happen in our current system? Nope. Some economic growth stealing from me, and giving to the un-productive creates![/QUOTE]
No idea about that
I think we just have two different positions. You represent the laissez-faire and I believe in the social economy.
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you should watch the first part of the movie "zeitgeist addendum" that would tell you what's coming up about this debt story, and financial crisis.
You don't need to have a master degree in economics to understand the system as some mentioned previously.
I can spoil it for you
WORLD BANKRUPTCY
love you all time.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 01 2010 16:26 gchan wrote:
If the Euro goes down, it'll be moreso because of policy more than anything else. The fundamental flaw with the system is that short of a crisis, any form of action requires consensus. With so many different economies from so many different backgrounds, nothing ever gets done. If you look at the voting record, country by country, of measures going through the ECB board, you'll notice that some countries are (hilariously) consistently voting for monetary policy expansion, while others are consistently voting it down.
I think in theory, the ECB does have some nice things going on for it (like only using monetary policy to target inflation), but the organization of it will be it's downfall. When it first started with primarily homogeneous W.European countries, having consensus voting worked a lot better. The difference in ideas wasn't so drastic as it is now. However, once they started integrating transitional economies before those countries even stabilized, they jeopardized the Euro. Not only is the Euro vulnerable to those countries economically, but they became vulnerable to them at a policy making level. Double whammy without the recourse to protect themselves. If the Euro survives the next two decades, hopefully they will have learnt something from trying to expand too fast and ignorantly accepting countries left and right. Good luck to the Euro.
I hope everyone reads this post, especially since gchan consistently has the best posts in any economics threads. I'll note, however, that the reason action doesn't require a consensus in crisis is because the system itself begins to break down. Chalk one up for the realists, what we saw in the crisis was that each country's banking system began protecting itself independently until an unnamed politician reigned them in.
Greece is going to be saved by Germany, but Spain is next on the list to crumble and that's a much bigger cleanup job than Greece.
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United States22883 Posts
Rothbardian, the European economy with the best prospects in the light of the current crisis is in Sweden.
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On March 01 2010 18:43 sh02hp0869 wrote:
Yeah, wouldn't want a higher standard of living...That would be horrible.
The export industry and tourism is getting problems because of it.
But going for short trips around Europe and the USA is awesome atm ^^.
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On March 01 2010 20:08 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2010 16:26 gchan wrote:
If the Euro goes down, it'll be moreso because of policy more than anything else. The fundamental flaw with the system is that short of a crisis, any form of action requires consensus. With so many different economies from so many different backgrounds, nothing ever gets done. If you look at the voting record, country by country, of measures going through the ECB board, you'll notice that some countries are (hilariously) consistently voting for monetary policy expansion, while others are consistently voting it down.
I think in theory, the ECB does have some nice things going on for it (like only using monetary policy to target inflation), but the organization of it will be it's downfall. When it first started with primarily homogeneous W.European countries, having consensus voting worked a lot better. The difference in ideas wasn't so drastic as it is now. However, once they started integrating transitional economies before those countries even stabilized, they jeopardized the Euro. Not only is the Euro vulnerable to those countries economically, but they became vulnerable to them at a policy making level. Double whammy without the recourse to protect themselves. If the Euro survives the next two decades, hopefully they will have learnt something from trying to expand too fast and ignorantly accepting countries left and right. Good luck to the Euro. I hope everyone reads this post, especially since gchan consistently has the best posts in any economics threads. I'll note, however, that the reason action doesn't require a consensus in crisis is because the system itself begins to break down. Chalk one up for the realists, what we saw in the crisis was that each country's banking system began protecting itself independently until an unnamed politician reigned them in. Greece is going to be saved by Germany, but Spain is next on the list to crumble and that's a much bigger cleanup job than Greece.
gchan's analysis seems to be one of the saner ones in this thread, really. And Jibba, I hope you don't feel too bad about your country falsifying statistics, it was a pretty HUMONGOUS lie, and the rest of the EMU chose not to see it.
IMO the EMU needs too stop screwing with big banks which need saving because of bad planning. They knew they were going to be rescued if their ludicrous schemes crashed, so they went for it. Smaller banks. A second thing we need to quit is waging war, it is so horribly expensive.
And we need to unexpand the EU as well as the EMU. The new eastern states seem to be doing fine, as they're pulling their weight, but the southern states, traditionally part of Europe, cultural heritage and whatnot, are messing up just about everything. Greece wanted to play with the big guys and foundered, Spain is going down like a swan, Romania is a terrible mess of a country, Italy, don't even want to speak of it.
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On March 01 2010 20:10 Jibba wrote:
Rothbardian, the European economy with the best prospects in the light of the current crisis is in Sweden.
Why is that? I'm a swede and I'm under the impression that Sweden is doing poorly.
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EPT
