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On February 04 2010 00:30 StorkHwaiting wrote:
It's just rhetoric. Every invasion needs rhetoric. Saying the invasion was spurred by the West, because they took on the same rhetoric as the West just doesn't make sense to me. Empire building is inherent in militaristic nations. I'm very skeptical about the idea that the West taught the Japanese to be militaristic and want to conquer others. The Japanese were pretty good at being violent and warmongering all on their own. I don't understand why you would refer to the samurai class as "now-useless," during Hideyoshi's reign but whatever. Suffice to say, I completely disagree with you. There are no reasons needed to rationalize empire-building other than the obvious reasons any nation would seek to build an empire. Trying to say the rhetoric they imitated from the West is what enabled their thinking seems naive at best.
I'm not saying they were 'taught' by the West were on earth in any of my posts have I mentioned that? Also I meant now useless as in the fall of Tokugawa, I was merely bringing another example of context in a desire for conquest of Korea completely and utterly different from the later 20th century context which is the reason I brought up this on top of what you raised in order to try show you that the contexts for conquest were different and you cannot compare 16/17th/19th century Japan to 20th century Japan, they are totally different things.
Anyway I've had enough, I'll leave the discussion here for someone else should they want to pick it up.
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On February 03 2010 23:07 251 wrote:
This kind of goes without saying, but could the Chinese be any more Communist? All they want to do is point their crappy 3rd generation weaponry at everyone around them and bully the little guy looking for freedom. I hope Tibet and Taiwan get out of this mess someday without conflict. Unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen.
In every discussion with China involved, there is always someone who just has to mention that they're communists. It doesn't matter if it's relevant or not, some random dude (like you) just has to mention it. In this case, it's not even a bit relevant...
And by pointing out that "all they want to do is point their crappy 3rd generation weaponry at everyone around them", are you actually comparing China's weaponry with something? The US weaponry perhaps? I thought we were supposed to not turn this thread into some kind of childish contest between nations...
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On February 04 2010 03:22 Zexion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 23:07 251 wrote:
This kind of goes without saying, but could the Chinese be any more Communist? All they want to do is point their crappy 3rd generation weaponry at everyone around them and bully the little guy looking for freedom. I hope Tibet and Taiwan get out of this mess someday without conflict. Unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen. In every discussion with China involved, there is always someone who just has to mention that they're communists. It doesn't matter if it's relevant or not, some random dude (like you) just has to mention it. In this case, it's not even a bit relevant... And by pointing out that "all they want to do is point their crappy 3rd generation weaponry at everyone around them", are you actually comparing China's weaponry with something? The US weaponry perhaps? I thought we were supposed to not turn this thread into some kind of childish contest between nations...
True. All threads involving China = instant derail. Plus, loose terms such as "communism" doesn't exactly help. Are we discussing Maoism/Stalinism/Hoxhaism? It's a naive blanket term used by those who don't grasp the bigger picture.
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On February 04 2010 00:54 ghermination wrote:
When you talk about the Japanese invading Korea, it has absolutely nothing to do with Western influence whatsoever wtf.
The Japanese were a (fairly) isolated culture that developed very differently from most others, putting much less value on the life of a person. Their social values were entirely alien to us and i think studying them is a good indicator of just how wierd the culture of actual aliens will be when we finally come into contact with them.
Obviously the Japanese were aware of the mainland for a long time. They invaded Korea multiple times, not only because of their rediculous racism (which was fairly normal for a culture at the time) but also because of their thirst for power. They probably would have succeeded in taking over Korea at some point if they hadn't been fairly outnumbered, considering their minor technological advantage. However their organized and ritualized fighting style wasn't matched very well by the way the Koreans fought, charging into battle en masse, using fairly crude steel weapons and bows, with women and children pelting the enemies with stones and rocks.
Back on the subject of China, US is too economically important for them to start a war or something. They practically own our country and if they were to dump the dollar we would be in a war in about 3 seconds - one which would either devestate both countries (and probably half the rest of the world), or would cause another cold war/a nuclear war and destroy humans forever.
Korea was only defended because Ming China sent their armies. The Korean armies were completely hopeless in battle. easily encircled and destroyed by the Japanese.
Let's be brutally honest, despite all the pride crap you see on b.net and here, Korea as a country was and still is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
The Chinese did not match the Japanese in combat but bought with them massive number of cannons and cavalry from Manchuria. The Japanese had better armor and hand guns but ultimately they could not last in Korea.
The reason for Korea was a gateway to China then to the world. This thinking existed for centuries and pretty much any time China fucks itself over, the Japanese would try to pull this shit.
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On February 04 2010 05:55 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2010 00:54 ghermination wrote:
When you talk about the Japanese invading Korea, it has absolutely nothing to do with Western influence whatsoever wtf.
The Japanese were a (fairly) isolated culture that developed very differently from most others, putting much less value on the life of a person. Their social values were entirely alien to us and i think studying them is a good indicator of just how wierd the culture of actual aliens will be when we finally come into contact with them.
Obviously the Japanese were aware of the mainland for a long time. They invaded Korea multiple times, not only because of their rediculous racism (which was fairly normal for a culture at the time) but also because of their thirst for power. They probably would have succeeded in taking over Korea at some point if they hadn't been fairly outnumbered, considering their minor technological advantage. However their organized and ritualized fighting style wasn't matched very well by the way the Koreans fought, charging into battle en masse, using fairly crude steel weapons and bows, with women and children pelting the enemies with stones and rocks.
Back on the subject of China, US is too economically important for them to start a war or something. They practically own our country and if they were to dump the dollar we would be in a war in about 3 seconds - one which would either devestate both countries (and probably half the rest of the world), or would cause another cold war/a nuclear war and destroy humans forever. Korea was only defended because Ming China sent their armies. The Korean armies were completely hopeless in battle. easily encircled and destroyed by the Japanese. Let's be brutally honest, despite all the pride crap you see on b.net and here, Korea as a country was and still is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. The Chinese did not match the Japanese in combat but bought with them massive number of cannons and cavalry from Manchuria. The Japanese had better armor and hand guns but ultimately they could not last in Korea. The reason for Korea was a gateway to China then to the world. This thinking existed for centuries and pretty much any time China fucks itself over, the Japanese would try to pull this shit.
Yup that's what I was trying to say. Japan invading the mainland is nothing new. They've been wanting to do that ever since the first Japanese person got a peek at how rich the mainland was. This is not say all Japanese are bloodthirsty demons. They're not. But expansion-wise, Japan has always looked to China as their natural expo 
On Korea vs Japan though... I don't think it was as simple as Ming owned Japan. Admiral Yi Sun Sin was pretty instrumental in cutting the supply lines for Japan, which is crucial in a war. That more than anything else is what ended the war. Although, of course the Ming troops are what stopped the advance and allowed Admiral Yi time to win those naval battles. So, I'd probably say Japan was defeated by Korea and China together, rather than solely Ming or Korea.
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The reason Japan was able to own Korea during the Imjin War is because the Chosun government was corrupt as fuck and totally useless. They totally ignored the advice from the few officials with a goddamned head on their shoulders saying that they should improve their defenses and that Japan seemed a bit fishy. Their castles were worth shit all, their military was inferior to the Japanese, and most of their generals were fucking useless. It was a miracle that Yi Sun Shin existed during the time because he was seriously the only Korean that really did a lot of shit.
The Chosun dynasty was so useless for most of its existence.
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
Wow the rampant chinese nationalism in TL came really early this time. 8th post, a record!
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On February 05 2010 06:52 igotmyown wrote:Don't care about these red herring china vs west posts. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35239542/ns/politics-white_house/And it looks like Obama's seeing the Dalai Lama. Maybe he realized it would hard to be bipartisan and encourage open dialogue if you only talk to one side.
There's nothing to be bipartisan about, though. The Dalai Lama isn't the head of any country. There aren't two sides here. Nor did Obama ever say he was going to be internationally neutral. When he said bipartisan he was talking about Dems and Repubs.
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On February 05 2010 07:20 StorkHwaiting wrote:There's nothing to be bipartisan about, though. The Dalai Lama isn't the head of any country. There aren't two sides here. Nor did Obama ever say he was going to be internationally neutral. When he said bipartisan he was talking about Dems and Repubs.
My my aren't you the polemicist.
Kudos to Obama for not backing down to China's verbal threats and attempts at intimidation. Always good to see someone willing to listen. Maybe if China bothered to do so instead of warping the other side's words in order to further their own agenda, they might discover that communication was meant to understand each other.
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After all the mess with Google i think that the Chinese officials should shut up.
They can always invite an Indian tribe chief if they want.
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On February 05 2010 08:35 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2010 07:20 StorkHwaiting wrote:On February 05 2010 06:52 igotmyown wrote:Don't care about these red herring china vs west posts. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35239542/ns/politics-white_house/And it looks like Obama's seeing the Dalai Lama. Maybe he realized it would hard to be bipartisan and encourage open dialogue if you only talk to one side. There's nothing to be bipartisan about, though. The Dalai Lama isn't the head of any country. There aren't two sides here. Nor did Obama ever say he was going to be internationally neutral. When he said bipartisan he was talking about Dems and Repubs. My my aren't you the polemicist. Kudos to Obama for not backing down to China's verbal threats and attempts at intimidation. Always good to see someone willing to listen. Maybe if China bothered to do so instead of warping the other side's words in order to further their own agenda, they might discover that communication was meant to understand each other.
You assume that China has something to gain from recognizing the Dalai Lama and talking to them. In this case they do not. Dalai Lama's ultimate interest is in promoting Tibetan independence (he avoids directly calling for independence but come on, you think all he wants is a few more rights for an "autonomous" Tibet that China would still control).
China will under no circumstances even move in that direction, because even small concessions will result in less control, and less control means less stability (I don't agree 100% with this assumption but it is an understandable and logical position).
China will only recognize the Dalai Lama's influence if they are able to control him and make him a puppet, and I think it is clear that they cannot. Otherwise, talking to Dalai Lama will only further legitimize his power and galvanize the Tibetan independence movement.
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china is pretty up tight about everything, from my experience talking with them on omegle.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
How can you talk to a country?
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I think it's sad that the USA is trying the same old trick. Escalating tensions with China and trying to sucker them into an arms race is pretty low, IMO. Always with the same rhetoric about democracy as well. There are a million and one "leaders" in Africa and the Middle East who are fighting for their people's liberty, but I don't see Obama shaking their hands. Political circus acts, all to keep money funneling to the military-industrial complex. We've screwed up our economy really badly, so our solution is to draw the rising power China into mutual economic suicide, in which we hope they die first.
Would be refreshing if Obama spent more time talking about how to reform our own government here at home, which has had at least a decade to show how inept and inefficient it is, rather than focusing on China's domestic issues which quite frankly we have no business getting involved in.
I regret voting for Obama. He really is more of the same. I think a lot of Americans are sick of this bullshit. There are no decent political platforms to vote for. Democrats and Republicans are like pick your own poison. Fuck it. I'm back to being apathetic. Add another one to the powerful bloc of Americans who choose not to vote.
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Lol@people who think communism is bad and that the U.S. Is actually a country of "freedom"
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I didn't bother reading the thread since by now all the "China" threads are pretty much full of the same thing. Honestly, this sort of thing isn't even "news". China HAS to warn the US not to act. Why? Because it's international face. Similarly Obama MUST meet with DL for the same exact reasons. Can you even imagine what would happen if Obama were to brush off the meeting? The Republicans will fucking lynch him. Remember the amount of flak Nixon got for his visit to China, despite the benefits foreseeable. Meh, whatever.
edit: Skimmed up the thread. Pretty nifty stuff about the Sino-Kor-Japanese military history. It's sad that the tangents are more worth reading than the "on topic" posts h ere.
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On February 19 2010 11:43 StorkHwaiting wrote:I think it's sad that the USA is trying the same old trick. Escalating tensions with China and trying to sucker them into an arms race is pretty low, IMO. Always with the same rhetoric about democracy as well. There are a million and one "leaders" in Africa and the Middle East who are fighting for their people's liberty, but I don't see Obama shaking their hands. Political circus acts, all to keep money funneling to the military-industrial complex. We've screwed up our economy really badly, so our solution is to draw the rising power China into mutual economic suicide, in which we hope they die first. Would be refreshing if Obama spent more time talking about how to reform our own government here at home, which has had at least a decade to show how inept and inefficient it is, rather than focusing on China's domestic issues which quite frankly we have no business getting involved in. I regret voting for Obama. He really is more of the same. I think a lot of Americans are sick of this bullshit. There are no decent political platforms to vote for. Democrats and Republicans are like pick your own poison. Fuck it. I'm back to being apathetic. Add another one to the powerful bloc of Americans who choose not to vote.
Can you explain how the meeting with the Dalai Lama can result in an arms race? The only reason I can think of is the US threatening military action on behalf of Tibet, which I can't see happening. In addition, I don't think China needs to engage in an arms race under any military pressure when they already have nuclear weapons.
On February 19 2010 12:06 KissBlade wrote:
I didn't bother reading the thread since by now all the "China" threads are pretty much full of the same thing. Honestly, this sort of thing isn't even "news". China HAS to warn the US not to act. Why? Because it's international face. Similarly Obama MUST meet with DL for the same exact reasons. Can you even imagine what would happen if Obama were to brush off the meeting? The Republicans will fucking lynch him. Remember the amount of flak Nixon got for his visit to China, despite the benefits foreseeable. Meh, whatever.
I think this is the real reason why the political situation is the way it is. Nicely put.
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On February 03 2010 23:16 Butigroove wrote:
I always love to read the first page of a thread, then skip to the last and see how much of a unrelated shit storm it had become.
Obama will meet the Dalai Lama, China will forget about it because it depends economically on the united states (and vice versa), and shit will go on as usual.
Ever wondered how that happened? How the Us and China could be so different on paper yet we depend entirely on each other now. Maybe someday the same will happen between Tibet and China.
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EPT
