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On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 19:05 liosama wrote:On February 03 2010 18:48 igotmyown wrote:
Exactly my point. If you read the url where love1whatever is getting his information, they make the exact same argument about Tibetan quality of life and life expectancy. And people are less inclined to tell Koreans they're biased and don't know what was good for them. Oh sorry I wasn't following the full argument. But yeah it's typical disgusting sort of arguments like that that make me puke. liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct.
Yes you are correct, Japan already wanted to get an empire on the go before contact with the west but Japan was unique among Asian countries in that it embraced western technology where others such as China had refused to do so and as a result they became very powerful in their part of the world enabling them to create the empire they did.
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On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct.
I got it from reason, but there are plenty of academic journals written on such a topic.
Yes again even in the late Tokugawa/Early Meiji era there were huge plans to go to war with Korea and colonize it, but that was only really due to a now-useless samurai class. But if you're to tell me that ravishing around in a newly created fleet in Korea to 'make it better' and 'teach them' and 'help them become good like us' wasn't a recipe taken from the western books then I don't know what to tell you.
If you actually read the journals by many early Japanese academics and what they say about the need to conquer Korea (later reasons) as opposed to the earlier reasons as you brought up Hideyoshi, and my bringing up of the late Tokugawa samurai i.e Saigou Takamori et al. You'll find that what I said is surprisingly accurate and true. As it is for nearly every single case of pan-nationalism. Because of the intense display of aggression and fear that was put into the hearts of many 'uncivilized' there was a huge consensus that they ought to get on the wagon before they're the ones pushing the wagon of their master.
I don't know how much more obvious it could be. The fact that Japan followed the same footsteps as unto them by the West despite all the things I mentioned above, is to me, enough evidence that Japanese colonialism and aggressive expansion was inspired by that of the West.
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United States42691 Posts
On February 03 2010 22:49 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:On February 03 2010 19:05 liosama wrote:On February 03 2010 18:48 igotmyown wrote:
Exactly my point. If you read the url where love1whatever is getting his information, they make the exact same argument about Tibetan quality of life and life expectancy. And people are less inclined to tell Koreans they're biased and don't know what was good for them. Oh sorry I wasn't following the full argument. But yeah it's typical disgusting sort of arguments like that that make me puke. liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct. Yes you are correct, Japan already wanted to get an empire on the go before contact with the west but Japan was unique among Asian countries in that it embraced western technology where others such as China had refused to do so and as a result they became very powerful in their part of the world enabling them to create the empire they did.
And become the most immoral empire the world has ever known and hopefully will ever know. Japan did some shit Hitler would be ashamed of. Japanese imperialism wasn't anything like most western imperialism, even mad King Leopold's regime in the Congo looks sane in comparison and he was irrelevant.
What the Japanese did to the rest of Asia can't be blamed on the west. If they'd copied the European empires they'd have bought into all the civilising crap Europe made up to convince themselves they weren't exploiting the rest of the world. Europe's behavior was about as moral as robbing a convenience store with a gun. Japan's, about as moral was a mass school shooting, then raping the corpses. Same tools, both evil and yet not really similar.
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I am not "blaming" the West in the sense you think. I am just saying the main provoker for Japan into the Pan-Asian nation it became was without a doubt set into motion in Japans early years of modernization as a result of the West
Edit: And also I'm talking specifically about the colonization of Korea, later Japanese endeavours were of course inexcusable and had no 'cause' so to speak.
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This kind of goes without saying, but could the Chinese be any more Communist? All they want to do is point their crappy 3rd generation weaponry at everyone around them and bully the little guy looking for freedom. I hope Tibet and Taiwan get out of this mess someday without conflict. Unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen.
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On February 03 2010 22:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 22:49 jello_biafra wrote:On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:On February 03 2010 19:05 liosama wrote:On February 03 2010 18:48 igotmyown wrote:
Exactly my point. If you read the url where love1whatever is getting his information, they make the exact same argument about Tibetan quality of life and life expectancy. And people are less inclined to tell Koreans they're biased and don't know what was good for them. Oh sorry I wasn't following the full argument. But yeah it's typical disgusting sort of arguments like that that make me puke. liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct. Yes you are correct, Japan already wanted to get an empire on the go before contact with the west but Japan was unique among Asian countries in that it embraced western technology where others such as China had refused to do so and as a result they became very powerful in their part of the world enabling them to create the empire they did. And become the most immoral empire the world has ever known and hopefully will ever know. Japan did some shit Hitler would be ashamed of. Japanese imperialism wasn't anything like most western imperialism, even mad King Leopold's regime in the Congo looks sane in comparison and he was irrelevant. What the Japanese did to the rest of Asia can't be blamed on the west. If they'd copied the European empires they'd have bought into all the civilising crap Europe made up to convince themselves they weren't exploiting the rest of the world. Europe's behavior was about as moral as robbing a convenience store with a gun. Japan's, about as moral was a mass school shooting, then raping the corpses. Same tools, both evil and yet not really similar.
I know how bad they were and I'm not saying that they were directly influenced by the west to do this, I'm just saying that on the whole they used their newly found western technology to do it.
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Trying to say that China is a communist country is a pretty bad route to go. Best communist starbucks/mcd's/kfc I've ever tasted. Then again, I haven't tried North Korean starbucks yet.
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I always love to read the first page of a thread, then skip to the last and see how much of a unrelated shit storm it had become.
Obama will meet the Dalai Lama, China will forget about it because it depends economically on the united states (and vice versa), and shit will go on as usual.
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On February 02 2010 20:24 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
So this is what the post F91/TSL TL.net looks like
^________________________________________^
LOL
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United States42691 Posts
On February 03 2010 23:13 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 22:58 KwarK wrote:On February 03 2010 22:49 jello_biafra wrote:On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:On February 03 2010 19:05 liosama wrote:On February 03 2010 18:48 igotmyown wrote:
Exactly my point. If you read the url where love1whatever is getting his information, they make the exact same argument about Tibetan quality of life and life expectancy. And people are less inclined to tell Koreans they're biased and don't know what was good for them. Oh sorry I wasn't following the full argument. But yeah it's typical disgusting sort of arguments like that that make me puke. liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct. Yes you are correct, Japan already wanted to get an empire on the go before contact with the west but Japan was unique among Asian countries in that it embraced western technology where others such as China had refused to do so and as a result they became very powerful in their part of the world enabling them to create the empire they did. And become the most immoral empire the world has ever known and hopefully will ever know. Japan did some shit Hitler would be ashamed of. Japanese imperialism wasn't anything like most western imperialism, even mad King Leopold's regime in the Congo looks sane in comparison and he was irrelevant. What the Japanese did to the rest of Asia can't be blamed on the west. If they'd copied the European empires they'd have bought into all the civilising crap Europe made up to convince themselves they weren't exploiting the rest of the world. Europe's behavior was about as moral as robbing a convenience store with a gun. Japan's, about as moral was a mass school shooting, then raping the corpses. Same tools, both evil and yet not really similar. I know how bad they were and I'm not saying that they were directly influenced by the west to do this, I'm just saying that on the whole they used their newly found western technology to do it.
Then we agree 
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Pretty sure this is just China just trying to bully US a little. There is no reason that America should not be able to see who we want. I think more and more that China is just looking for a reason to bully us.
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On February 03 2010 23:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 23:13 jello_biafra wrote:On February 03 2010 22:58 KwarK wrote:On February 03 2010 22:49 jello_biafra wrote:On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:On February 03 2010 19:05 liosama wrote:On February 03 2010 18:48 igotmyown wrote:
Exactly my point. If you read the url where love1whatever is getting his information, they make the exact same argument about Tibetan quality of life and life expectancy. And people are less inclined to tell Koreans they're biased and don't know what was good for them. Oh sorry I wasn't following the full argument. But yeah it's typical disgusting sort of arguments like that that make me puke. liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct. Yes you are correct, Japan already wanted to get an empire on the go before contact with the west but Japan was unique among Asian countries in that it embraced western technology where others such as China had refused to do so and as a result they became very powerful in their part of the world enabling them to create the empire they did. And become the most immoral empire the world has ever known and hopefully will ever know. Japan did some shit Hitler would be ashamed of. Japanese imperialism wasn't anything like most western imperialism, even mad King Leopold's regime in the Congo looks sane in comparison and he was irrelevant. What the Japanese did to the rest of Asia can't be blamed on the west. If they'd copied the European empires they'd have bought into all the civilising crap Europe made up to convince themselves they weren't exploiting the rest of the world. Europe's behavior was about as moral as robbing a convenience store with a gun. Japan's, about as moral was a mass school shooting, then raping the corpses. Same tools, both evil and yet not really similar. I know how bad they were and I'm not saying that they were directly influenced by the west to do this, I'm just saying that on the whole they used their newly found western technology to do it. Then we agree
Indeed!
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On February 03 2010 23:16 Butigroove wrote:
I always love to read the first page of a thread, then skip to the last and see how much of a unrelated shit storm it had become.
Obama will meet the Dalai Lama, China will forget about it because it depends economically on the united states (and vice versa), and shit will go on as usual.
There are some interesting worthwhile posts in this thread. In fact, if the language was kept a bit civil, it isn't all that bad.
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On February 03 2010 22:49 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:On February 03 2010 19:05 liosama wrote:On February 03 2010 18:48 igotmyown wrote:
Exactly my point. If you read the url where love1whatever is getting his information, they make the exact same argument about Tibetan quality of life and life expectancy. And people are less inclined to tell Koreans they're biased and don't know what was good for them. Oh sorry I wasn't following the full argument. But yeah it's typical disgusting sort of arguments like that that make me puke. liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct. Yes you are correct, Japan already wanted to get an empire on the go before contact with the west but Japan was unique among Asian countries in that it embraced western technology where others such as China had refused to do so and as a result they became very powerful in their part of the world enabling them to create the empire they did.
I don't think liosama was talking about embracing Western technology. I thought he was talking about embracing Western imperialist ideology. And it wasn't so much embracing technology as it was embracing industrialization as a society. China had the technology just fine. They were just corrupt as hell and decided to build gardens instead of navies LOL.
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On February 04 2010 00:23 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 22:49 jello_biafra wrote:On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:On February 03 2010 19:05 liosama wrote:On February 03 2010 18:48 igotmyown wrote:
Exactly my point. If you read the url where love1whatever is getting his information, they make the exact same argument about Tibetan quality of life and life expectancy. And people are less inclined to tell Koreans they're biased and don't know what was good for them. Oh sorry I wasn't following the full argument. But yeah it's typical disgusting sort of arguments like that that make me puke. liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct. Yes you are correct, Japan already wanted to get an empire on the go before contact with the west but Japan was unique among Asian countries in that it embraced western technology where others such as China had refused to do so and as a result they became very powerful in their part of the world enabling them to create the empire they did. I don't think liosama was talking about embracing Western technology. I thought he was talking about embracing Western imperialist ideology. And it wasn't so much embracing technology as it was embracing industrialization as a society. China had the technology just fine. They were just corrupt as hell and decided to build gardens instead of navies LOL.
Actually China had an incredibly strong navy (it was easily the most powerful in the world during it's time) up until the point where the emperor decided to burn it down. Sigh Qing dynasty was so fucking fail.
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On February 03 2010 22:52 liosama wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct. I got it from reason, but there are plenty of academic journals written on such a topic. Yes again even in the late Tokugawa/Early Meiji era there were huge plans to go to war with Korea and colonize it, but that was only really due to a now-useless samurai class. But if you're to tell me that ravishing around in a newly created fleet in Korea to 'make it better' and 'teach them' and 'help them become good like us' wasn't a recipe taken from the western books then I don't know what to tell you. If you actually read the journals by many early Japanese academics and what they say about the need to conquer Korea (later reasons) as opposed to the earlier reasons as you brought up Hideyoshi, and my bringing up of the late Tokugawa samurai i.e Saigou Takamori et al. You'll find that what I said is surprisingly accurate and true. As it is for nearly every single case of pan-nationalism. Because of the intense display of aggression and fear that was put into the hearts of many 'uncivilized' there was a huge consensus that they ought to get on the wagon before they're the ones pushing the wagon of their master. I don't know how much more obvious it could be. The fact that Japan followed the same footsteps as unto them by the West despite all the things I mentioned above, is to me, enough evidence that Japanese colonialism and aggressive expansion was inspired by that of the West.
It's just rhetoric. Every invasion needs rhetoric. Saying the invasion was spurred by the West, because they took on the same rhetoric as the West just doesn't make sense to me. Empire building is inherent in militaristic nations. I'm very skeptical about the idea that the West taught the Japanese to be militaristic and want to conquer others. The Japanese were pretty good at being violent and warmongering all on their own. I don't understand why you would refer to the samurai class as "now-useless," during Hideyoshi's reign but whatever. Suffice to say, I completely disagree with you. There are no reasons needed to rationalize empire-building other than the obvious reasons any nation would seek to build an empire. Trying to say the rhetoric they imitated from the West is what enabled their thinking seems naive at best.
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On February 03 2010 23:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 23:13 jello_biafra wrote:On February 03 2010 22:58 KwarK wrote:On February 03 2010 22:49 jello_biafra wrote:On February 03 2010 22:28 StorkHwaiting wrote:On February 03 2010 19:05 liosama wrote:On February 03 2010 18:48 igotmyown wrote:
Exactly my point. If you read the url where love1whatever is getting his information, they make the exact same argument about Tibetan quality of life and life expectancy. And people are less inclined to tell Koreans they're biased and don't know what was good for them. Oh sorry I wasn't following the full argument. But yeah it's typical disgusting sort of arguments like that that make me puke. liosama, your entire theory about Japan being tainted by Western imperialism falls apart if you actually know the history between these two countries. Japan has a long history of trying to conquer Korea. Lol Admiral Perry didn't somehow inspire these people to have dreams of conquest with his evul Western thoughts. That's a rather far-fetched idea imo, and I'm not sure where you got it. Japan has had the ambition to conquer the mainland for half a millennium. Peep Hideyoshi's invasion in 1592. Invasion of KoreaAsiatic people were already empire building when Euros were nothing but a gleam in Vercingetorix's eye. Much as I enjoy post-colonialist thought, I have to say this one is probably not correct. Yes you are correct, Japan already wanted to get an empire on the go before contact with the west but Japan was unique among Asian countries in that it embraced western technology where others such as China had refused to do so and as a result they became very powerful in their part of the world enabling them to create the empire they did. And become the most immoral empire the world has ever known and hopefully will ever know. Japan did some shit Hitler would be ashamed of. Japanese imperialism wasn't anything like most western imperialism, even mad King Leopold's regime in the Congo looks sane in comparison and he was irrelevant. What the Japanese did to the rest of Asia can't be blamed on the west. If they'd copied the European empires they'd have bought into all the civilising crap Europe made up to convince themselves they weren't exploiting the rest of the world. Europe's behavior was about as moral as robbing a convenience store with a gun. Japan's, about as moral was a mass school shooting, then raping the corpses. Same tools, both evil and yet not really similar. I know how bad they were and I'm not saying that they were directly influenced by the west to do this, I'm just saying that on the whole they used their newly found western technology to do it. Then we agree
I'd agree with this statement as well.
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On February 03 2010 23:07 251 wrote:
This kind of goes without saying, but could the Chinese be any more Communist? All they want to do is point their crappy 3rd generation weaponry at everyone around them and bully the little guy looking for freedom. I hope Tibet and Taiwan get out of this mess someday without conflict. Unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen.
Bully the little guy? Tibetans had an empire for centuries and invaded China several times, most notably during the Tang Dynasty when they took the capital twice. Not to sound like a nutty historian but this depiction of Tibetans as "the little guy" is kind of misguided. They were a serious military power back in the day and it wasn't until the Mongols flattened them did they scale things back militarily.
Also, rather amusing that you kicked off your start in the debate by saying China's aggression is "Communist." I can point to innumerable examples of the USA "bullying the little guy" with much more legitimacy than China's annexation of Tibet. For instance, the entire Western hemisphere. I don't think political systems/ideology has anything to do with it.
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When you talk about the Japanese invading Korea, it has absolutely nothing to do with Western influence whatsoever wtf.
The Japanese were a (fairly) isolated culture that developed very differently from most others, putting much less value on the life of a person. Their social values were entirely alien to us and i think studying them is a good indicator of just how wierd the culture of actual aliens will be when we finally come into contact with them.
Obviously the Japanese were aware of the mainland for a long time. They invaded Korea multiple times, not only because of their rediculous racism (which was fairly normal for a culture at the time) but also because of their thirst for power. They probably would have succeeded in taking over Korea at some point if they hadn't been fairly outnumbered, considering their minor technological advantage. However their organized and ritualized fighting style wasn't matched very well by the way the Koreans fought, charging into battle en masse, using fairly crude steel weapons and bows, with women and children pelting the enemies with stones and rocks.
Back on the subject of China, US is too economically important for them to start a war or something. They practically own our country and if they were to dump the dollar we would be in a war in about 3 seconds - one which would either devestate both countries (and probably half the rest of the world), or would cause another cold war/a nuclear war and destroy humans forever.
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The Japanese have always borrowed ideas from other countries, including heavy Chinese influences. In fact, Japanese princes used to study in China before returning back home. The invasion of Korea was in effect, Japan trying to be the "new China". It was also the ideal "land bridge" to the main land. Korea was a tribute state to China for a long long long time.
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EPT
