On November 26 2009 14:28 A3iL3r0n wrote: I hope something is found.
9/11 obviously has some degree of government involvement and cover-up.
you and other conspiracy theorists make me want to throw up sometimes
People like you are sickening.
The notion that we should completely ignore all evidence because 'no conspiracy theory has ever or will ever be true' is utterly absurd. History is riddled with conspiracies from start to finish at the very least their arguments are historically fallacious, conspiracy denies urgently need to grow up.
Are you not aware of the declassified operation Northwoods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods the plan to fly planes into buildings in Florida, blame it on Cuba and then invade? Apparently they thought this plan was good enough to hold onto.
Are you not aware of the Nazi coup attempt in the United States in 1933. The attempt to overthrow the Government of Franklin Roosevelt that only failed because marine corps Major General Smedley Butler the man chosen to lead the coup blew the whistle at the last minute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
Prescott Bush the grand daddy of the recent president Bush was involved in this plot. Prescott was a convicted Nazi prosecuted under trading with the enemy act. The Bush family fortune was built by profiteering from concentration camps. George Herbert Walker Bush joined the CIA and was deeply involved in the vicious terrorist campaigns waged against central American nations especially Cuba.
Bush senior was a cold blooded terrorist as is described in a couple of very good unauthorised biographies of the man including 'Bush the unauthorized biography' (available to read for free online at www.tarpley.net and 'family of secrets' http://www.familyofsecrets.com/buy-now/)
During the 1980's a secret Government was uncovered within the United States in the Iran-Contra debacle, first it was uncovered that the United States and Israel were smuggling arms to Iran against their own arms embargo. Later during investigation it was discovered that the Reagan Administration (with Bush sr as vice president) were sending planes with guns to the Terrorist Contras in Nicaragua and the planes would fly back with drugs. The Government was caught out running drugs for guns trades with Terrorists at the same time as predending to wage a 'war against drugs'. The organisation that was uncovered during this scandal had their own private army, navy, air force and intelligence assets that were being deployed for ends that are criminal to say the least.
Both these scandals the Nazi coup of 1933, and the Iran-Contra scandal revealed the dark underbelly of the American power structure but no body was charged with treason, nobody was brought to justice and it is this same group of diabolical villains who were behind the 9/11 attacks amongst other events I have not discussed.
The criticism that 'anyone who believes 9/11 was a conspiracy believes the moon landing is fake' is a nothing argument that only discredits the morons who make this claim as these two conspiracy theories have NOTHING to do with one another. I suppose next you will be telling me that Julius Caesar was not killed in a conspiracy but fell over backwards on a dozen knives?
For god sake know your history, if you know the history of the events I have described here you will find that the 9/11 plot is just the latest chapter of an evolving story, the saga of the 'fall of the republic'. Don't bother to blame the conspirators blame the conspiracy deniers because it is only through the efforts of these small minded loud mouthed buffoons who refuse to look at any evidence and reject even the possibility that the rich and powerful might not have our best interests at heart that allow these travesties to take place.
Only after the conspiracy deniers wake up may this world finally enjoy peace.
On November 26 2009 15:35 Choros wrote: For god sake know your history, if you know the history of the events I have described here you will find that the 9/11 plot is just the latest chapter of an evolving story, the saga of the 'fall of the republic'
The Tuskegee syphilis experiment happened, ergo government invented AIDS to kill black people.
After a public lecture in 2005, I was buttonholed by a documentary filmmaker with Michael Moore-ish ambitions of exposing the conspiracy behind 9/11. “You mean the conspiracy by Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda to attack the United States?” I asked rhetorically, knowing what was to come.
“That’s what they want you to believe,” he said. “Who is they?” I queried. “The government,” he whispered, as if “they” might be listening at that very moment. “But didn’t Osama and some members of al Qaeda not only say they did it,” I reminded him, “they gloated about what a glorious triumph it was?”
“Oh, you’re talking about that video of Osama,” he rejoined knowingly. “That was faked by the CIA and leaked to the American press to mislead us. There has been a disinformation campaign going on ever since 9/11.”
Conspiracies do happen, of course. Abraham Lincoln was the victim of an assassination conspiracy, as was Austrian archduke Franz Ferdinand, gunned down by the Serbian secret society called Black Hand. The attack on Pearl Harbor was a Japanese conspiracy (although some conspiracists think Franklin Roosevelt was in on it). Watergate was a conspiracy (that Richard Nixon was in on). How can we tell the difference between information and disinformation? As Kurt Cobain, the rocker star of Nirvana, once growled in his grunge lyrics shortly before his death from a self-inflicted (or was it?) gunshot to the head, “Just because you’re paranoid don’t mean they’re not after you.”
But as former Nixon aide G. Gordon Liddy once told me (and he should know!), the problem with government conspiracies is that bureaucrats are incompetent and people can’t keep their mouths shut. Complex conspiracies are difficult to pull off, and so many people want their quarter hour of fame that even the Men in Black couldn’t squelch the squealers from spilling the beans. So there’s a good chance that the more elaborate a conspiracy theory is, and the more people that would need to be involved, the less likely it is true.
Why do people believe in highly improbable conspiracies? In previous columns I have provided partial answers, citing patternicity (the tendency to find meaningful patterns in random noise) and agenticity (the bent to believe the world is controlled by invisible intentional agents). Conspiracy theories connect the dots of random events into meaningful patterns and then infuse those patterns with intentional agency. Add to those propensities the confirmation bias (which seeks and finds confirmatory evidence for what we already believe) and the hindsight bias (which tailors after-the-fact explanations to what we already know happened), and we have the foundation for conspiratorial cognition.
Examples of these processes can be found in journalist Arthur Goldwag’s marvelous new book, Cults, Conspiracies, and Secret Societies (Vintage, 2009), which covers everything from the Freemasons, the Illuminati and the Bilderberg Group to black helicopters and the New World Order.
“When something momentous happens, everything leading up to and away from the event seems momentous, too. Even the most trivial detail seems to glow with significance,” Goldwag explains, noting the JFK assassination as a prime example. “Knowing what we know now ... film footage of Dealey Plaza from November 22, 1963, seems pregnant with enigmas and ironies—from the oddly expectant expressions on the faces of the onlookers on the grassy knoll in the instants before the shots were fired (What were they thinking?) to the play of shadows in the background (Could that flash up there on the overpass have been a gun barrel gleaming in the sun?). Each odd excrescence, every random lump in the visual texture seems suspicious.” Add to these factors how compellingly a good narrative story can tie it all together—think of Oliver Stone’s JFK or Dan Brown’s Angels and Demons, both equally fictional.
What should we believe? Transcendentalists tend to believe that everything is interconnected and that all events happen for a reason. Empiricists tend to think that randomness and coincidence interact with the causal net of our world and that belief should depend on evidence for each individual claim. The problem for skepticism is that transcendentalism is intuitive; empiricism is not. Or as folk rock group Buffalo Springfield once intoned: Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep ...
To those who turn up their nose at 9/11 conspiracies without a second thought, please go watch videos on youtube about the physics of buildings falling down. You don't have to walk with anything except "no one can explain what happened". See if that makes your stomach turn.
On November 26 2009 15:05 Superiorwolf wrote: If the government didn't cover up so much information there might not be any conspiracy theories at all. The theorists are merely exercising freedom of speech. The theories are valid and plausible until proven wrong, but they are still likely incorrect.
The theories are invalid till they have evidence supported by peer review. If you have a 100 pieces leading up to one theory, picking the piece that seems odd or badly worded and pulling it out of context to try discredit the one theory, thats not how it works because you'll have to counter the other 99 pieces. How much real evidence when subjected in full context(showing videos ending when the debri hits the ground claiming 'the tower fell at free fall!, No, the debri landing shows that the debri was at free fall, as one would expect) does the conspiracy theorists have? Not one piece. How we know this? Because if they had one real piece, that would have someone look into it that isnt partial on the matter, then another to disprove that guys claim and so on.
I like to post this one whenever conspiracys creep up, that 30% of swedes under 30 think 911 wasnt an accident because they've seen conspirarcy videos that pull things out of context and tell a nice mystic story... thats 29.9999% to many.
On November 26 2009 14:28 A3iL3r0n wrote: I hope something is found.
9/11 obviously has some degree of government involvement and cover-up.
you and other conspiracy theorists make me want to throw up sometimes
People like you are sickening.
The notion that we should completely ignore all evidence because 'no conspiracy theory has ever or will ever be true' is utterly absurd. History is riddled with conspiracies from start to finish at the very least their arguments are historically fallacious, conspiracy denies urgently need to grow up.
Are you not aware of the declassified operation Northwoods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods the plan to fly planes into buildings in Florida, blame it on Cuba and then invade? Apparently they thought this plan was good enough to hold onto.
Are you not aware of the Nazi coup attempt in the United States in 1933. The attempt to overthrow the Government of Franklin Roosevelt that only failed because marine corps Major General Smedley Butler the man chosen to lead the coup blew the whistle at the last minute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
Prescott Bush the grand daddy of the recent president Bush was involved in this plot. Prescott was a convicted Nazi prosecuted under trading with the enemy act. The Bush family fortune was built by profiteering from concentration camps. George Herbert Walker Bush joined the CIA and was deeply involved in the vicious terrorist campaigns waged against central American nations especially Cuba.
Bush senior was a cold blooded terrorist as is described in a couple of very good unauthorised biographies of the man including 'Bush the unauthorized biography' (available to read for free online at www.tarpley.net and 'family of secrets' http://www.familyofsecrets.com/buy-now/)
During the 1980's a secret Government was uncovered within the United States in the Iran-Contra debacle, first it was uncovered that the United States and Israel were smuggling arms to Iran against their own arms embargo. Later during investigation it was discovered that the Reagan Administration (with Bush sr as vice president) were sending planes with guns to the Terrorist Contras in Nicaragua and the planes would fly back with drugs. The Government was caught out running drugs for guns trades with Terrorists at the same time as predending to wage a 'war against drugs'. The organisation that was uncovered during this scandal had their own private army, navy, air force and intelligence assets that were being deployed for ends that are criminal to say the least.
Both these scandals the Nazi coup of 1933, and the Iran-Contra scandal revealed the dark underbelly of the American power structure but no body was charged with treason, nobody was brought to justice and it is this same group of diabolical villains who were behind the 9/11 attacks amongst other events I have not discussed.
The criticism that 'anyone who believes 9/11 was a conspiracy believes the moon landing is fake' is a nothing argument that only discredits the morons who make this claim as these two conspiracy theories have NOTHING to do with one another. I suppose next you will be telling me that Julius Caesar was not killed in a conspiracy but fell over backwards on a dozen knives?
For god sake know your history, if you know the history of the events I have described here you will find that the 9/11 plot is just the latest chapter of an evolving story, the saga of the 'fall of the republic'. Don't bother to blame the conspirators blame the conspiracy deniers because it is only through the efforts of these small minded loud mouthed buffoons who refuse to look at any evidence and reject even the possibility that the rich and powerful might not have our best interests at heart that allow these travesties to take place.
Only after the conspiracy deniers wake up may this world finally enjoy peace.
Thank you. There wasn't enough utility for me to research and write out something logical, but i'm glad some1 did it.
Every once in a while, a conspiracy is right, and when it is, conspiracy theorists grab on to it like a lifeline. Just because it was right before doesn't mean its right now... I could say the same thing about me being a psychic and guessing random numbers that people pick. Every once in a while I'm right, but it still doesn't mean I'm a psychic.
On November 26 2009 14:28 A3iL3r0n wrote: I hope something is found.
9/11 obviously has some degree of government involvement and cover-up.
you and other conspiracy theorists make me want to throw up sometimes
People like you are sickening.
The notion that we should completely ignore all evidence because 'no conspiracy theory has ever or will ever be true' is utterly absurd. History is riddled with conspiracies from start to finish at the very least their arguments are historically fallacious, conspiracy denies urgently need to grow up.
Are you not aware of the declassified operation Northwoods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods the plan to fly planes into buildings in Florida, blame it on Cuba and then invade? Apparently they thought this plan was good enough to hold onto.
Are you not aware of the Nazi coup attempt in the United States in 1933. The attempt to overthrow the Government of Franklin Roosevelt that only failed because marine corps Major General Smedley Butler the man chosen to lead the coup blew the whistle at the last minute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
Prescott Bush the grand daddy of the recent president Bush was involved in this plot. Prescott was a convicted Nazi prosecuted under trading with the enemy act. The Bush family fortune was built by profiteering from concentration camps. George Herbert Walker Bush joined the CIA and was deeply involved in the vicious terrorist campaigns waged against central American nations especially Cuba.
Bush senior was a cold blooded terrorist as is described in a couple of very good unauthorised biographies of the man including 'Bush the unauthorized biography' (available to read for free online at www.tarpley.net and 'family of secrets' http://www.familyofsecrets.com/buy-now/)
During the 1980's a secret Government was uncovered within the United States in the Iran-Contra debacle, first it was uncovered that the United States and Israel were smuggling arms to Iran against their own arms embargo. Later during investigation it was discovered that the Reagan Administration (with Bush sr as vice president) were sending planes with guns to the Terrorist Contras in Nicaragua and the planes would fly back with drugs. The Government was caught out running drugs for guns trades with Terrorists at the same time as predending to wage a 'war against drugs'. The organisation that was uncovered during this scandal had their own private army, navy, air force and intelligence assets that were being deployed for ends that are criminal to say the least.
Both these scandals the Nazi coup of 1933, and the Iran-Contra scandal revealed the dark underbelly of the American power structure but no body was charged with treason, nobody was brought to justice and it is this same group of diabolical villains who were behind the 9/11 attacks amongst other events I have not discussed.
The criticism that 'anyone who believes 9/11 was a conspiracy believes the moon landing is fake' is a nothing argument that only discredits the morons who make this claim as these two conspiracy theories have NOTHING to do with one another. I suppose next you will be telling me that Julius Caesar was not killed in a conspiracy but fell over backwards on a dozen knives?
For god sake know your history, if you know the history of the events I have described here you will find that the 9/11 plot is just the latest chapter of an evolving story, the saga of the 'fall of the republic'. Don't bother to blame the conspirators blame the conspiracy deniers because it is only through the efforts of these small minded loud mouthed buffoons who refuse to look at any evidence and reject even the possibility that the rich and powerful might not have our best interests at heart that allow these travesties to take place.
Only after the conspiracy deniers wake up may this world finally enjoy peace.
^ This.
For all our beloved conspiracy-theorists-make-me-sick-let-me-get-back-to-my-perfect-little-world-where-no-corruption-is-possible naive and fucking retarded forum goes, here is the link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
And incase you're too lazy to actually fucking click on the link, I'll quote beginning of the wiki article:
Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false-flag plan, proposed within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for CIA or other operatives to commit apparent acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Castro-led Cuba. One plan was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".
This operation is especially notable in that it included plans for hijackings and bombings followed by the use of phony evidence that would blame the terrorist acts on a foreign government, namely Cuba.
The plan stated:
The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.
Operation Northwoods was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and signed by then-Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer, and sent to the Secretary of Defense.
Several other proposals were listed, including the real or simulated actions against various U.S military and civilian targets. Operation Northwoods was part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project (Operation Mongoose) anti-Castro initiative. It was never officially accepted or executed.
Ceril I'm sorry your countrymen have been taken in. If you want I think we should start a thread (or find one to revive?) because I don't want to take over this one. I meant only to test the mettle of the decriers by giving them the most accessible and fundamental form and line of inquiry. My point is that no one agrees from an engineering forensics perspective about what happened, and sadly none of the usual forensics work was allowed to happen, for many reasons you could muse about. It is galling to me that lots of otherwise sensible people have lingering doubts. Shouldn't this part of history be as true as possible, especially at this day in age? But it isn't, it's shrouded in rhetoric, emotion, and divergent views of what occurred wrapped in a blanket of vague tragedy. That's fucked up.
Re: OP: Pursuant to truth, I guess this is objective, but most public perusal will only result in more mystification, if only because millions of text messages are essentially meaningless to a person randomly reading them, who will try to ascribe meaning where it's difficult to assemble any.
And nothing will be found in these texts, if there were, they would have been disposed of anyway. It's one thing to make mistakes on the day of such a major event going through real-time, but 8 years later, and in the form of messages? Probably not...
when there are people like these in the US blindly following who ever is on TV.
It is hard to not question what this government have done and is doing when people like Sarah Palin has this many supporters. As funny as this video is the sad part is that is most Americans and they are going to decide who's going to be in office. But that doesn't matter anyway because the people in charge is just going to put up 2 puppets from each party and the end result will be just the same shit but different toilet.
911 has way to many loop holes to be as legit the government say it is. You have to look at both sides of the story before you start calling people names on being stupid for believing 911 conspiracy theories.
Choros, unsurprisingly your whole post smacks of the very misinformation you try to bring to light. Operation Northwood has nothing about flying planes into buildings (at least according to the wiki page you linked). Few people have heard about the Business Plot, and for good reason, reputable historians have discarded the idea that it was a serious coup, one historian on the page you linked putting it as simply "influence peddling by a small core of financiers". All your other claims are not corroborated with actual evidence except an "unauthorized" biography of Bush Snr. Precisely why is this unauthorized biography a more legitimate source than other biographies by reputable historians who come to pedestrian but reasonable conclusions about what happened? If you're serious about history, go out and read some books, do some research, find original documents, find out for yourself. Don't just read bullshit online to feed your sensationalist appetite.
The point with Operation Northwood is not about flying planes into buildings, but that the American government has at one point (which we know of) considered attacking its own civilians to mislead people into war.
On November 26 2009 17:02 searcher wrote: Precisely why is this unauthorized biography a more legitimate source than other biographies by reputable historians
1. Anyone who writes anything about conspiracies gets flamed by idiots (many in this thread) and as a result does not because a 'reputable historian'. 2. Do you really think someone will authorize a biography about themselves if it is full of negative/incriminating evidence? -_-
On November 26 2009 17:02 searcher wrote: If you're serious about history, go out and read some books, do some research, find original documents, find out for yourself..
lol, have you even looked at the 9/11 conspiracy evidence? There is more evidence suggesting the American government was involved then any other country
Just to add my own comment on the conspiracy... I love the comments that arise such as "engineers can't agree" or "physicists can't agree" on part X or Y. Well guess what, only 9 out of 10 of dentists recommend the toothbrush I currently use. Maybe the last 1 believe that this toothbrush will make my right foot grow 6 inches in width.