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iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
October 15 2009 23:57 GMT
#141
On October 16 2009 08:55 ItchReliever wrote:
given how it's still so fucking easy to smuggle shit in through, government is probably paying off bin laden or some dude to not hijack our planes again. this new technology is pretty kewl but is obviously against our culture for most people but i think some kind of change needs to happen like hiring security guards in planes or something so we can finally stop paying off bin laden


If we did hire security guys for airplanes.. can we call em "Sky Marshals" or something cool?
ninjafetus
Profile Joined December 2008
United States231 Posts
October 16 2009 00:01 GMT
#142
These are great. For privacy concerns (ie- loss of potential customer concerns), I'm sure the airports will keep at least one standard terminal open where you can go if you object to the new scanners. The rest of us will enjoy our reduced hassle.

Question: Assuming that we can choose a traditional scan/pat down instead, would you guys objecting still object? If so, why?
RoyW
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Ireland270 Posts
October 16 2009 00:07 GMT
#143
On October 16 2009 08:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2009 08:47 Spike wrote:
Meh, don't want to hijack but it seems to me his views are pretty relevant to this thread and what is currently being discussed.


No.

He was arguing framework and intent behind posts through philosophic analysis and assumption and making a side argument that my (and others) opinions are merely subject of sexist principles enforced by societal conditioning etc.. That is all "related" to this subject but when you make it the drive of your post you are getting away from "experimental scanners in airports" and more to "society makes us uncomfortable with out bodies."



I'm not continuing along those lines. Serious question: Am I breaking the 'give it a rest' order by pointing out that your argument is 'this wont fly with women - trust me I know women, and those who do not share this opinion, I believe they do not.'? I am using this as my basis for my point.

I can honestly say with sufficient familiarity with women, however, that this would not be anywhere near as much of an issue with the women I do know, whether it be my mother, her sisters of the same generation, or my girlfriend or any of my mid-twenties female peers. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I'm not sure, but where I come from and have lived - in wales/germany and sweden - there isn't this perception of discomfort with nakedness, and there isn't this great difference between men and women that you may revere.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
October 16 2009 00:10 GMT
#144
A standard pat down is still an invasion of privacy. Why do people consider pat downs and feel-ups are now par for the course?

I believe they should demonstrate reasonable suspicion or provide evidence of high rates of true positive detection. Then there is the issue that the abhorrent TSA is still behind all and incompetence is to be expected.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
October 16 2009 00:10 GMT
#145
On October 16 2009 09:07 RoyW wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2009 08:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
On October 16 2009 08:47 Spike wrote:
Meh, don't want to hijack but it seems to me his views are pretty relevant to this thread and what is currently being discussed.


No.

He was arguing framework and intent behind posts through philosophic analysis and assumption and making a side argument that my (and others) opinions are merely subject of sexist principles enforced by societal conditioning etc.. That is all "related" to this subject but when you make it the drive of your post you are getting away from "experimental scanners in airports" and more to "society makes us uncomfortable with out bodies."



I'm not continuing along those lines. Serious question: Am I breaking the 'give it a rest' order by pointing out that your argument is 'this wont fly with women - trust me I know women, and those who do not share this opinion, I believe they do not.'? I am using this as my basis for my point.

I can honestly say with sufficient familiarity with women, however, that this would not be anywhere near as much of an issue with the women I do know, whether it be my mother, her sisters of the same generation, or my girlfriend or any of my mid-twenties female peers. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I'm not sure, but where I come from and have lived - in wales/germany and sweden - there isn't this perception of discomfort with nakedness, and there isn't this great difference between men and women that you may revere.


In prudish america/canada as well as asian cultures and the middle east IT IS a big deal. I figured you were smart enough to consider the more conservative cultures and not just figure everyone was like minded of a german or swede.
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
October 16 2009 00:13 GMT
#146
On October 16 2009 09:10 TanGeng wrote:
A standard pat down is still an invasion of privacy. Why do people consider pat downs and feel-ups are now par for the course?

I believe they should demonstrate reasonable suspicion or provide evidence of high rates of true positive detection. Then there is the issue that the abhorrent TSA is still behind all and incompetence is to be expected.


Now you are just trolling
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5660 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-16 00:27:20
October 16 2009 00:21 GMT
#147
On October 16 2009 09:10 TanGeng wrote:
A standard pat down is still an invasion of privacy. Why do people consider pat downs and feel-ups are now par for the course?


a pat down is not invasion of privacy. you are allowed that right based on your status.

you should probably study law for, literally, more than 1 second before you start trolling.

and I'm 90% sure this will be perfectly acceptable, given the status and importance of airport security.
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iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
October 16 2009 00:23 GMT
#148
On October 16 2009 09:21 mOnion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2009 09:13 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
On October 16 2009 09:10 TanGeng wrote:
A standard pat down is still an invasion of privacy. Why do people consider pat downs and feel-ups are now par for the course?

I believe they should demonstrate reasonable suspicion or provide evidence of high rates of true positive detection. Then there is the issue that the abhorrent TSA is still behind all and incompetence is to be expected


Now you are just trolling


a pat down is not invasion of privacy. you are allowed that right based on your status.

you should probably study law for, literally, more than 1 second before you start trolling.

and I'm 90% sure this will be perfectly acceptable, given the status and importance of airport security.


You should probably read my other post where I talk about his repetitive trolling of TSA.. yeah. That'd be great. Reading the thread you post in is a good policy my friend.
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5660 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-16 00:28:25
October 16 2009 00:25 GMT
#149
On October 16 2009 09:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2009 09:21 mOnion wrote:
On October 16 2009 09:13 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
On October 16 2009 09:10 TanGeng wrote:
A standard pat down is still an invasion of privacy. Why do people consider pat downs and feel-ups are now par for the course?

I believe they should demonstrate reasonable suspicion or provide evidence of high rates of true positive detection. Then there is the issue that the abhorrent TSA is still behind all and incompetence is to be expected


Now you are just trolling


a pat down is not invasion of privacy. you are allowed that right based on your status.

you should probably study law for, literally, more than 1 second before you start trolling.

and I'm 90% sure this will be perfectly acceptable, given the status and importance of airport security.


You should probably read my other post where I talk about his repetitive trolling of TSA.. yeah. That'd be great. Reading the thread you post in is a good policy my friend.


oh shit, i wasnt flaming you dude

fuck i quoted wrong, i was talking to the dude who thinks pat downs are illegal.
i would literally, never, even in a drunken stupor, even CONSIDER not bowing to your will.

you can bench 6 of me O.O
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
RoyW
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Ireland270 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-16 00:28:02
October 16 2009 00:25 GMT
#150
On October 16 2009 09:10 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2009 09:07 RoyW wrote:
On October 16 2009 08:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
On October 16 2009 08:47 Spike wrote:
Meh, don't want to hijack but it seems to me his views are pretty relevant to this thread and what is currently being discussed.


No.

He was arguing framework and intent behind posts through philosophic analysis and assumption and making a side argument that my (and others) opinions are merely subject of sexist principles enforced by societal conditioning etc.. That is all "related" to this subject but when you make it the drive of your post you are getting away from "experimental scanners in airports" and more to "society makes us uncomfortable with out bodies."



I'm not continuing along those lines. Serious question: Am I breaking the 'give it a rest' order by pointing out that your argument is 'this wont fly with women - trust me I know women, and those who do not share this opinion, I believe they do not.'? I am using this as my basis for my point.

I can honestly say with sufficient familiarity with women, however, that this would not be anywhere near as much of an issue with the women I do know, whether it be my mother, her sisters of the same generation, or my girlfriend or any of my mid-twenties female peers. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I'm not sure, but where I come from and have lived - in wales/germany and sweden - there isn't this perception of discomfort with nakedness, and there isn't this great difference between men and women that you may revere.


In prudish america/canada as well as asian cultures and the middle east IT IS a big deal. I figured you were smart enough to consider the more conservative cultures and not just figure everyone was like minded of a german or swede.




I'm sorry if you believe that I am being excessively confrontational about it and really don't want to hijack the thread. (If I get told to leave the thread I won't make any other post) I thought I had previously outlined that I didn't intend to be an asshole about my points. I'm sorry if it has come out that way, but you have been obnoxious here.

Anyway, I do understand that there are naturally different cultural standards, and I started off in this thread explaining that I felt it was a pity that people were culturally conditioned to feel this way, which is entirely relevant to the topic. If this is a device that would save time and money for airport security, I would feel it's a pity if something I think of as an irrational conditioned value would prevent its implementation. I think it would be great if it could be brought in as a more time and cost efficient solution, but as I said, I would fully support the frisking option for all the hypothetical mothers who like men touching them as opposed to looking at their breasts.

Anyway, I asked this earlier. In your opposition to this, if a guy had a genuine cultural-value aversion to being touched or being viewed through this, would you then say 'tough luck, you can't fly'? Where do you draw the line?
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
October 16 2009 00:27 GMT
#151
man pat downs are dumb.
just find people who look dodgy and take a screening.
this looks kinda useful but they could just have a imaging thing that brings up metal/carbon fibre instead of tissue Oo
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
October 16 2009 00:31 GMT
#152
On October 16 2009 09:25 RoyW wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2009 09:10 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
On October 16 2009 09:07 RoyW wrote:
On October 16 2009 08:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
On October 16 2009 08:47 Spike wrote:
Meh, don't want to hijack but it seems to me his views are pretty relevant to this thread and what is currently being discussed.


No.

He was arguing framework and intent behind posts through philosophic analysis and assumption and making a side argument that my (and others) opinions are merely subject of sexist principles enforced by societal conditioning etc.. That is all "related" to this subject but when you make it the drive of your post you are getting away from "experimental scanners in airports" and more to "society makes us uncomfortable with out bodies."



I'm not continuing along those lines. Serious question: Am I breaking the 'give it a rest' order by pointing out that your argument is 'this wont fly with women - trust me I know women, and those who do not share this opinion, I believe they do not.'? I am using this as my basis for my point.

I can honestly say with sufficient familiarity with women, however, that this would not be anywhere near as much of an issue with the women I do know, whether it be my mother, her sisters of the same generation, or my girlfriend or any of my mid-twenties female peers. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I'm not sure, but where I come from and have lived - in wales/germany and sweden - there isn't this perception of discomfort with nakedness, and there isn't this great difference between men and women that you may revere.


In prudish america/canada as well as asian cultures and the middle east IT IS a big deal. I figured you were smart enough to consider the more conservative cultures and not just figure everyone was like minded of a german or swede.




I'm sorry if you believe that I am being excessively confrontational about it and really don't want to hijack the thread. (If I get told to leave the thread I won't make any other post) I thought I had previously outlined that I didn't intend to be an asshole about my points. I'm sorry if it has come out that way, but you have been obnoxious here.

Anyway, I do understand that there are naturally different cultural standards, and I started off in this thread explaining that I felt it was a pity that people were culturally conditioned to feel this way, which is entirely relevant to the topic. If this is a device that would save time and money for airport security, I would feel it's a pity if something I think of as an irrational conditioned value would prevent its implementation. I think it would be great if it could be brought in as a more time and cost efficient solution, but as I said, I would fully support the frisking option for all the hypothetical mothers who like men touching them as opposed to looking at their breasts.

Anyway, I asked this earlier. In your opposition to this, if a guy had a genuine cultural-value aversion to being touched or being viewed through this, would you then say 'tough luck, you can't fly'? Where do you draw the line?


Uh there are cultural aversions to being touched. like in the middle east.

You guys know not everyone is padded down right? It selective and infrequent. The metal detectors / odor detectors and various other stations all make up the constant protection. With pad downs, interviews and in the most extreme circumstances full inspection being the "random" element of protection.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-16 00:38:04
October 16 2009 00:32 GMT
#153
A pat down is a search of a person. It's not widely considered an invasion of privacy because people have gotten so used to it. They just have a policy where passengers are not allowed into the boarding area unless they consent to the searches requested by TSA official. When the TSA official does a pat down, they have either reasonable suspicion or it's "random choice" policy.

The idea behind the nude scans is pretty much everyone walks through it. Everyone gets scanned. It's equivalent to doing the pat down to every single passenger that walks through a checkpoint every single time. Is that the standard that people feel should apply to pat down searches - the baseline standard?

See incontrol, you beat me to it, and I apologize if you feel that my intense intolerance of the TSA has been over the top. I have an honest opinion that the organization has many unsavory characters among its ranks. It's based on personal experience and documented cases of incompetence. I won't bring it up in the future. I've made my opinion quite clear.
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mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5660 Posts
October 16 2009 00:36 GMT
#154
On October 16 2009 09:32 TanGeng wrote:
A pat down is a search of a person. It's not widely considered an invasion of privacy because people have gotten so used to it. They just have a policy where passengers are not allowed into the boarding area unless they consent to the searches requested by TSA official. When the TSA official does a pat down, they have either reasonable suspicion or it's "random choice" policy.

The idea behind the nude scans is pretty much everyone walks through it. Everyone gets scanned. It's equivalent to doing the pat down to every single passenger that walks through a checkpoint every single time. Is that the standard that people feel should apply to pat down searches - the baseline standard?


no, its not considered civil battery (which is what it would be called if some random guy on the streets touched your junk) because of the position the security guards are in. same thing for police men.

saying they're "used to it" would render all other inappropriate cases of sexual battery null.
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TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
October 16 2009 00:42 GMT
#155
On October 16 2009 09:36 mOnion wrote:
no, its not considered civil battery (which is what it would be called if some random guy on the streets touched your junk) because of the position the security guards are in. same thing for police men.

saying they're "used to it" would render all other inappropriate cases of sexual battery null.


You do realize that there are due process guidelines for searches by policemen. The policeman has to ask or have reasonable suspicion - see someone stick stuff down their pants, etc. The pat down is only legal because the passengers consent to it by holding out there arms and not resisting the pat down (the implicit sign of consent). Of course, the TSA forbids all passengers who decline from boarding. It's an invasion of privacy - but legal - because they hold your privilege to board the airplane in their claws.
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RoyW
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Ireland270 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-16 00:49:19
October 16 2009 00:45 GMT
#156
On October 16 2009 09:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2009 09:25 RoyW wrote:
On October 16 2009 09:10 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
On October 16 2009 09:07 RoyW wrote:
On October 16 2009 08:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
On October 16 2009 08:47 Spike wrote:
Meh, don't want to hijack but it seems to me his views are pretty relevant to this thread and what is currently being discussed.


No.

He was arguing framework and intent behind posts through philosophic analysis and assumption and making a side argument that my (and others) opinions are merely subject of sexist principles enforced by societal conditioning etc.. That is all "related" to this subject but when you make it the drive of your post you are getting away from "experimental scanners in airports" and more to "society makes us uncomfortable with out bodies."



I'm not continuing along those lines. Serious question: Am I breaking the 'give it a rest' order by pointing out that your argument is 'this wont fly with women - trust me I know women, and those who do not share this opinion, I believe they do not.'? I am using this as my basis for my point.

I can honestly say with sufficient familiarity with women, however, that this would not be anywhere near as much of an issue with the women I do know, whether it be my mother, her sisters of the same generation, or my girlfriend or any of my mid-twenties female peers. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I'm not sure, but where I come from and have lived - in wales/germany and sweden - there isn't this perception of discomfort with nakedness, and there isn't this great difference between men and women that you may revere.


In prudish america/canada as well as asian cultures and the middle east IT IS a big deal. I figured you were smart enough to consider the more conservative cultures and not just figure everyone was like minded of a german or swede.




I'm sorry if you believe that I am being excessively confrontational about it and really don't want to hijack the thread. (If I get told to leave the thread I won't make any other post) I thought I had previously outlined that I didn't intend to be an asshole about my points. I'm sorry if it has come out that way, but you have been obnoxious here.

Anyway, I do understand that there are naturally different cultural standards, and I started off in this thread explaining that I felt it was a pity that people were culturally conditioned to feel this way, which is entirely relevant to the topic. If this is a device that would save time and money for airport security, I would feel it's a pity if something I think of as an irrational conditioned value would prevent its implementation. I think it would be great if it could be brought in as a more time and cost efficient solution, but as I said, I would fully support the frisking option for all the hypothetical mothers who like men touching them as opposed to looking at their breasts.

Anyway, I asked this earlier. In your opposition to this, if a guy had a genuine cultural-value aversion to being touched or being viewed through this, would you then say 'tough luck, you can't fly'? Where do you draw the line?


Uh there are cultural aversions to being touched. like in the middle east.

You guys know not everyone is padded down right? It selective and infrequent. The metal detectors / odor detectors and various other stations all make up the constant protection. With pad downs, interviews and in the most extreme circumstances full inspection being the "random" element of protection.


I know there are cultural aversions to being touched, hence the still-unanswered question.

On a side-note, I remember going through JFK a couple of years ago and having to go through one of those devices that I guess was an odor detector, or something designed to detect traces of explosive. Then all my hand luggage was taken out one by one and inspected. I was fine with the whole process, except for the fact that anytime I tried to make small-talk with the guy inspecting me, ('ugh, that box thing I went through is interesting, never seen one before, what does it do?) the guy would just give me a blank 'don't-speak' stare and continue on. The lack of civility was a bigger pain in the ass that the inspection itself.

edit - typo
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
October 16 2009 00:59 GMT
#157
As for the origin of the technology, I think it derived from application in the US prison system where these devices were used to detect non-metallic shivs taped to people's bodies or hidden in the anal cavities. Maybe it will detect drugs, too. The resolution gives a picture that is quite a bit more invasive of privacy than than a simple pat down.

I think the proper question is what level of invasion of privacy will passengers tolerate from their government ordained security bureaucrats for little or no gain in security, with great hassle, and at a high cost to the tax base.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5660 Posts
October 16 2009 01:00 GMT
#158
On October 16 2009 09:59 TanGeng wrote:
As for the origin of the technology, I think it derived from application in the US prison system where these devices were used to detect non-metallic shivs taped to people's bodies or hidden in the anal cavities. Maybe it will detect drugs, too. The resolution gives a picture that is quite a bit more invasive of privacy than than a simple pat down.

I think the proper question is what level of invasion of privacy will passengers tolerate from their government ordained security bureaucrats for little or no gain in security, with great hassle, and at a high cost to the tax base.


HEY could you tell me where in the constitution is our right to privacy? kthx
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TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
October 16 2009 01:03 GMT
#159
Due process 4th amendment.
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mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5660 Posts
October 16 2009 01:16 GMT
#160
On October 16 2009 10:03 TanGeng wrote:
Due process 4th amendment.


guarding against search and seizure is not right to privacy.

hint: right to privacy is not in the constitution O.O
double hint: our right to privacy has been further weakened after 9/11 cuz of the patriot act.
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