In the US, there are so many people who watch Japanese Anime.
But I'm just realizing that the US has awesome cartoons too. I know this is old school, but the original x-men and spiderman shows were pretty good. I'm watching them right now, and besides the poor art quality, I'd say the story and suspense and action are better than what's out there in anime like naruto and what not.
Do you think people in Japan ever watch American cartoons, and if they did, which ones do you think they would, and which american cartoons are comparable to japanese Anime in quality?
I think x-men and spiderman is pretty good. Batman wasn't that great and seems it was geared towards a younger population. The new stuff from pixar and dreamworks (wall-e and kungfu panda) are awesome as well, but they don't fall into the cartoon/anime category. Avatar wind bringer is pretty good too.
oh ya, and if Japanese people aren't watching american cartoons as much as american people are watching japanese anime, why do you think this is the case?
I'm totally addicted to the original x-men season 1 series right now.
They don't watch american cartoons as much as american people watch japanese anime. Why because, Anime obviously is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cartoons.
I really liked all those older cartoons, like Rocko's Modern Life, Hey Arnold, Invader Zim, Rugrats, Catdog, Dexter's Laboratory, Courage, Ed Edd and Eddy, etc etc etc. There were a lot of really great cartoons made in the US. However I really don't think those garner that much interest outside of the US, especially in Japan.
They do watch American cartoons in Japan. Tom and Jerry and Popeye were particularly popular. I also met a Japanese girl who was obsessed with Secret Squirrel (which was a Hanna-Barbera cartoon which was revived in the mid-90s).
On September 07 2009 07:10 Polyphasic wrote: In the US, there are so many people who watch Japanese Anime.
But I'm just realizing that the US has awesome cartoons too. I know this is old school, but the original x-men and spiderman shows were pretty good. I'm watching them right now, and besides the poor art quality, I'd say the story and suspense and action are better than what's out there in anime like naruto and what not.
Do you think people in Japan ever watch American cartoons, and if they did, which ones do you think they would, and which american cartoons are comparable to japanese Anime in quality?
I think x-men and spiderman is pretty good. Batman wasn't that great and seems it was geared towards a younger population. The new stuff from pixar and dreamworks (wall-e and kungfu panda) are awesome as well, but they don't fall into the cartoon/anime category. Avatar wind bringer is pretty good too.
oh ya, and if Japanese people aren't watching american cartoons as much as american people are watching japanese anime, why do you think this is the case?
I'm totally addicted to the original x-men season 1 series right now.
Old X-men, Old Batman through Justice League Unlimited, old spiderman were all well worth watching
My favorite cartoons are not ones that would perhaps cross the cultural divide as well; South Park and Boondocks, for example, rely on a lot of current events and social humor and in Japan they would not understand the humor or satirical nature of the cartoons.
Lots of people from Asian countries (especially Japan) enjoy Western movies/culture. I don't see why they wouldn't also like cartoons. Just look at all the Asian languages hardcoded in subs on streamed video all over the internet.
That said, we're probably looking at cartoons with higher production values than Spiderman I would say MAYBE x-men, since it's plot line is basically an anime in and of itself, but probably something more along the lines of Dilbert or Clone High.
While I can't answer your question, I'd say things like the Simpsons and South Park are obviously only watchable when you are in North America.
On related notes, Growing Pain was extremely popular in China during the 90s; Harry Potter is extremely popular right now in pretty much all of the East-asian countries.
EDIT: You asked the question of why animated shows from Japan have been far more successful than North American ones, even though animated shows originated in America. To answer this question, I suggest you watch the documentary (it's on Youtube) about the history of comic book super heroes. Although it does not directly answer your questions, it can shred some light on the problem.
On September 07 2009 07:26 illu wrote: While I can't answer your question, I'd say things like the Simpsons and South Park are obviously only watchable when you are in North America.
Not quite. The Simpsons are hugely popular in France and South America. The show is also extremely popular in Korea (which would lead me to believe it also has some type of audience in Japan as well). For South Park, I can't say, but I know that it is dubbed in Japanese and broadcast on Japanese satellite channels. Since it's been around for more than a decade, I would say that it must have some audience, however small, in Japan.
On September 07 2009 07:26 illu wrote: While I can't answer your question, I'd say things like the Simpsons and South Park are obviously only watchable when you are in North America.
On related notes, Growing Pain was extremely popular in China during the 90s; Harry Potter is extremely popular right now in pretty much all of the East-asian countries.
EDIT: You asked the question of why animated shows from Japan have been far more successful than North American ones, even though animated shows originated in America. To answer this question, I suggest you watch the documentary (it's on Youtube) about the history of comic book super heroes. Although it does not directly answer your questions, it can shred some light on the problem.
You're joking, right? Those two series are IMMENSELY popular outside America.
On September 07 2009 07:26 illu wrote: While I can't answer your question, I'd say things like the Simpsons and South Park are obviously only watchable when you are in North America.
On related notes, Growing Pain was extremely popular in China during the 90s; Harry Potter is extremely popular right now in pretty much all of the East-asian countries.
EDIT: You asked the question of why animated shows from Japan have been far more successful than North American ones, even though animated shows originated in America. To answer this question, I suggest you watch the documentary (it's on Youtube) about the history of comic book super heroes. Although it does not directly answer your questions, it can shred some light on the problem.
You're joking, right? Those two series are IMMENSELY popular outside America.
OK fine. I meant by in East-asia they are probably not very popular.
On September 07 2009 07:17 esla_sol wrote: the cartoons that are popular here (south park, simpsons, etc) probably lose their hilarity due to cultural changes.
I'm not sure I buy that completely. Tons of anime hilarity is lost due to cultural changes, yet some of them remain very popular outside of Japan. Things like Lucky Star and Hayate no Gotoku have very Japanese humour but yet it's very popular among the North Americans that I know
On September 07 2009 07:26 illu wrote: While I can't answer your question, I'd say things like the Simpsons and South Park are obviously only watchable when you are in North America.
My little bro who is like 11 years old never misses an episode of the simpsons everyday. South Park is one of my favorite tv shows :/. With the internet and this day of globalization, anyone who knows decent english can appreciate most american tv shows to their full extent. You just need to keep up with the news and youll get most of the satire, I dont keep up with the celebrity references in SP, but I get the rest of the show.
I think it has to do with Japanese wanting to preserve their culture more and buy Japanese things. Its the same reason more Japanese cars are bought in Japan than American cars. Japanese are more likely to buy their own stuff while Americans are kind of a free for all frenzy. Its the same way most people on this site are so into Korean starcraft gamers while most of the koreans don't know about anything starcraft related outside of korea. Its odd, same way if you use different ways to talk to online most of the people from Japan(and Korea too) tend to use their own countries social networking sites and not communicate as much with the rest of the world. Meanwhile you can find Filipinos on pretty much every corner of the internet, its weird, but its true.
And I don't think Japanese anime is THAT popular really, I can't say for sure as I don't watch it much, but honestly almost EVERYONE I know that watches anime at ALL is Asian. I don't know a single white friend that enjoys Japanese anime.
On September 07 2009 08:00 FabledIntegral wrote: Southpark is quite popular.
And I don't think Japanese anime is THAT popular really, I can't say for sure as I don't watch it much, but honestly almost EVERYONE I know that watches anime at ALL is Asian. I don't know a single white friend that enjoys Japanese anime.
Here I'd say it's a 50/50 split between white people and Asians. (New Jersey, suburbia).
Actually lots of arabs watch anime too. We live in a crappy consumption culture(worse than the US) where we just import shit without producing anything of our own except oil and shitty copy pasted arabic melodramas that are all the same. So our channels pick up american cartoons and japanese cartoons, and the japanese stuff is the thing thats more mainstream with kids, and a lot of people from the generation that is around 18-30 in bahrain right now, a lot of them still watch anime because of that with a decent arab subbing scene. Adult american cartoons didnt really pick up since they werent really shown, and are mainly satire based of the current moment, but I assume that this current internet generation will pick up american sooner or later and it will become more mainstream by straying away from TV and moving towards internet media. Anime tends to be on higher quality on average than american cartoons though. Nothing tops South Park though.
I do think Spongebob Squarepants is awesome. One of my math professors have a Spongebob toy and he uses it to demonstrate path integrals and orientations.
EDIT: Despite the popularity with Japanese anime, many feel that (including me) it has passed its peak. If you are a hardcore fan like me, anime is not very exciting - not because I have personally got bored of them, but there has already been so many anime out there that the plots starts to get too similar to each other.
On the other hand, animated shows in the U.S. passed its prime about 30 years ago (arguably marked by Marvel's bankrupsy).
Japanese probably wouldn't get receive many American cartoons in Japan though some are very well made Avatar might be one that could cross over. Japanese certainly see American Cartoon movies such as any Disney, Pixar movies. Along with the Simpsons and maybe Family Guy, Simpsons has been there for sure.
The reason why there wouldn't be as many American Cartoons going to Japan vs Japanese Anime going to America is because Japanese take Animation much more seriously as an Art to the level of an award winning film.
I grew up with the xmen cartoon show and I thought it was the baddest cartoon show around. Could you see yourself torrenting all the episodes of xmen versus torrenting the episodes of Death Note or even Bleach and Naruto? Even if you feel that an Anime like Death Note is not a fair comparison because it's for a more mature audience the idea is that there aren't that many American equivalent cartoons to compare that level of cartoon for that type of audience.
Nowadays though Animation is becoming a more serious medium in America with shows like Avatar the Last Airbender. I could see Avatar being shown in Japan and it doing well.
To be completely honest, until I got to college about a week ago, I didn't know what anime WAS. And I can't say I'm at all impressed with what I've found, so the arguement about it being better quality is entirely relative.
On September 07 2009 07:14 Ziph wrote: They don't watch american cartoons as much as american people watch japanese anime. Why because, Anime obviously is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cartoons.
On September 07 2009 09:13 phyre112 wrote: To be completely honest, until I got to college about a week ago, I didn't know what anime WAS. And I can't say I'm at all impressed with what I've found, so the arguement about it being better quality is entirely relative.
I'd say the people in the industry take it more seriously and put more money into it vs the relative statement of it being better quality.
I like Gurren Lagann, Death Note, Azumanga Daioh, FLCL myself. Those might be worth checking out. I'm actually not big on anime myself.
While I seriously doubt that non-Japanese animation are even nearly as popular in Japan as vice-versa (in Japan, the general rule is that domestic companies are far more successful then foreign companies), certain animations and films do manage to succeed even in Japan. For example, Harry Potter was preety successful in Japan and the Japanese even made their own version of the Powerpuff Girls called Powerpuff Girls Z.
On September 07 2009 09:32 Tom Phoenix wrote: While I seriously doubt that non-Japanese animation are even nearly as popular in Japan as vice-versa (in Japan, the general rule is that domestic companies are far more successful then foreign companies), certain animations and films do manage to succeed even in Japan. For example, Harry Potter was preety successful in Japan and the Japanese even made their own version of the Powerpuff Girls called Powerpuff Girls Z.
lets face it, other than the comedy ones, american cartoons suck really bad compared to action/fighting oriented anime in japan. its like watching X-men where miraculously you will see a lot of destruction but no 1 really dies. and the only thing wolverine actually destroys with his claws are robots. you won't see wolverine take on a large number of actual soldiers as he cuts off arms and legs. its the same with the dialogue. american cartoons "you shall be DESTROYED" vs "I'll kill u all / i'll send you to hell first."
now someone might reply hey blood and guts isn't everything. yes that's right but because of the inherently less violent nature of american action oriented cartoons and less aggressive dialogue like in spiderman/x-men, it can be safe to say that they are geared towards a less mature audience (in terms of age) than japanese ones which usually appeal to a much broader audience.
here Ken_D's post can be taken as an example of this truth with marvel creating the wolverine anime trying to appeal to a broader audience.
What about other popular American shows? Like uhh...House, or CSI, or 24 or Heroes or w/e (I don't really watch them >_> ) are those shows popular elsewhere around the world?
Southpark, Simpsons, and similar shows are not what I would consider cartoons. They're animated shows and not geared to children, and their writers tend to include a ton of pop culture and/or literary references. Family guy's probably the closest to a sitcom.
There were some quality cartoons like batman the animated series and exosquad. Edit: and gargoyles, though it's very shakespearean.
Although from what I understand, this is a fairly accurate (if satirical and exaggerated) portrayal of Japanese fans of American cartoons, I think it's important to distinguish between the target audiences of various Japanese anime and American cartoons.
For instance, although they are both cartoons, Spongebob and, say, Death Note, aren't really comparable. Cartoons in America are targeted at a much younger audience than most Japanese anime. If I had to hazard a guess, I would figure that Spongebob is aimed at an audience of 4-12 year olds, even if its rating is Y7. Death Note, on the other hand, is part of a subset of anime traditionally regarded as targeting 7-17 year olds, particularly males. Even then, you have to wonder just how many children age 7-10 would be able to enjoy the show.
Regardless of culture, American cartoons and Japanese cartoons are going to appeal to different people, simply because their content is intended to be enjoyed for completely different reasons. Though I guess that isn't really being fair. Granted there definitely exist cartoons that aren't full of ridiculous slapstick. Take Scooby Doo for example, which even used laugh tracks in its episodes the same way sitcoms do because of the similar humor. And there are definitely anime that are as full of crude and "low-level" humor as Spongebob. The biggest difference, I think, lies in the fact that American cartoons are seen as explicitly for younger children (around age 12 is where the shift to live-action shows like Ned's Declassified, Zoey 101, and Drake & Josh begins), whereas the "acceptable" age range for Japanese cartoons is a lot wider.
Because of that, American cartoons are made with the idea of appealing to elementary-school kids in mind, who traditionally enjoy seeing people comically zapped into dust. Japanese cartoons, however, often have the option of doing things like Paranoia Agent, making hidden meanings such as biting social commentary one of the main focuses of the show. Younger children can still enjoy these for their humor, but older children can appreciate their subtleties. Similar tactics are sometimes employed in American children's productions (for instance, Bee Movie's use of what I seem to remember being a parody of David Letterman, which the target audience wouldn't appreciate), but usually they are a side story for the amusement of parents, rather than an underlying focus.
Because of these differences in culture, and in the sort of connotation that anime has in these different cultures, it would seem to me that American cartoons and Japanese cartoons aren't really comparable. The only thing they have in common is the fact that they're animated--and since there are things that can be done only in animation that can't be properly replicated in live action, I would assert that "animation = kids' stuff" doesn't necessarily -have- to be true.
It does make sense that that line of thinking is the current truth, however. Although there are things that can be done in animation that can't be done in live action, the sort of content that would necessitate the use of animation traditionally isn't the sort of content an adult viewer would enjoy. Take the old Sonic the Hedgehog cartoons, for example. An implausible anthropomorphic hedgehog that runs miles in the blink of an eye and whose running animation consists of a continuous circle most definitely would not work in live action. However, what adult would want to see this, when they can see the Miami CSI department investigating a mysterious murder in the real world, with realistic characters, all in live-action? The latter would work in animation, but it isn't necessary. And since live-action work adds a sense of realism that animation simply cannot have, there is literally no benefit to using animation over live action for such a show.
Essentially, animation is ideal for the use the ridiculous and implausible. However, as people grow, they tend to appreciate these things less and less, so they tend toward live action. This leaves children as the only demographic for which using animation is the best idea. A curious exception to this rule is the recent trend of superhero and comic book movies, all of which, as ridiculous as they are, appear to be blockbusters. A potential reason for this is the fact that the comic books being recreated in live action are the same books that would have been read by today's adults: Spiderman, The Fantastic Four, Batman, Superman, etc. Hell, The Dark Knight won how many awards, two of them Oscars? Obviously this would not have been the case had these movies been animated. I guess that the level of realism added by the live action aspect offsets the inherent ridiculousness of a comic book, or perhaps even complements it. After all, apart from the ridiculous outfits and gadgets, Batman isn't too far removed from a potential reality.
My point is that the American cultural belief in the fact that animation is to be reserved for kids' material makes sense, and in fact, it is curious why animation is accepted so much more in Japan. They even have a specific term for anime aimed at men 18 and higher (not due to pornography or other traditional restrictions, but for the fact that only men 18 and higher would probably enjoy it): "seinen." And although the general rule of animation allowing the use of the ridiculous follows in both cultures, "the ridiculous" is different in each one. In the case of America, animators exploit their medium to create slapstick humor and hilariously unrealistic characters, settings, and plot. In Japan, although the unrealistic characters, settings, and plot are retained, they are not generally done so for crude hilarity. In the case of Paranoia Agent, the disturbance factor is greatly increased when things that -should- be ridiculous in-universe can appear the same as the "real" world. Due to things like this, it is apparent that the Japanese are getting full use out of animation to show concepts in a method that live action is unfriendly to. On the other hand, American media often relays the same messages, but in a form more suitable to live action.
If you were to compare these two methods of getting the same message across, do they have the same validity? Are they equal in quality? I would argue that they are not. Realism is an exceptionally important factor when trying to explore a theme or teach a lesson, which leaves live action as a much better method of doing so. Animation is used when the content is too ridiculous for live action to tolerate, and the farther removed from reality the content is, the less effective it is at exploring mature issues. But then, what happens when you want to watch something more mature than Spongebob yet light-hearted enough to be entertaining without having to think? That is where I believe anime has its place, at least in American culture.
Shows like Death Note and Eureka Seven can be watched with either a critical eye or a lazy one, and are enjoyable both ways. Obviously Death Note doesn't explore the human ego and the consequences of giving it godlike power as well as certain novels or live-action TV, and there are things much better than Eureka Seven at delving into problems such as global militarism, reverence for the planet, and persecution of religion. But both of these shows are rife with literary techniques and devices normally reserved for actual literature. Eureka Seven, for example, is pretty much a direct homage to Sir James Frazer's The Golden Bough (which makes repeated appearances in the show itself), exploring the marriage of the sun god and the earth goddess, the sacrificial king, and other concepts Frazer himself explores. Shows like these are ideal for people who want a little ridiculousness in their media, while retaining dignity. American cartoons, on the other hand, have virtually no appeal to these people.
Because of this, I believe in the validity of anime as a respectable type of media, insofar as it is the only media that serves the purpose it does: telling a more mature story than American cartoons while retaining some of the ridiculousness characteristic of the animated medium. It is not necessary, however, for anime to be the only media to work in this role. It is entirely possible to create a Western-style cartoon that serves the same purpose (sadly, Avatar is the only one I can think of). And live action can do something very similar, though not quite the same, as it has been doing with superhero and comic book movies. If I had to compare live action, anime, and Western animation on an arbitrary quality scale, I would rank anime in the middle, with live action on top and Western animation on the bottom. I am not so blind as to suggest that anime is equally respectable as live action work, but I do believe it has its place.
TLDR: In short, anime and American cartoons aren't comparable because of the difference in their intended purpose. American cartoons are targeted at younger children and are animated because the ridiculous slapstick humor and implausible violence (getting zapped into a talking pile of dust, for example) necessary to entertain these younger children aren't usable in live action. Anime, on the other hand, is targeted at a much wider range of people and has a much wider variety of content. There are anime comparable to Spongebob, and there are anime that act as social commentary while exploring psychological issues. Both Western cartoons and Japanese cartoons are animated because their content is far too unrealistic to properly convey in live action, but their differences lead me to believe that anime has its place, and deserves at least some recognition, though most definitely not the same recognition live action work deserves.
Anyway I just wrote about 1700 words on the differences between American animation and Japanese animation and the sheer patheticalness of that makes me worry for myself enough that I need food.
On September 07 2009 07:58 Chuiu wrote: I'm sure they watched the new Speed Racer to laugh at how fucking horrible most new age American cartoons have become.
On September 07 2009 10:19 Cobalt wrote: Anyway I just wrote about 1700 words on the differences between American animation and Japanese animation and the sheer patheticalness of that makes me worry for myself enough that I need food.
You should write more on Starcraft. More people here will appreciate it.
On September 07 2009 07:17 esla_sol wrote: the cartoons that are popular here (south park, simpsons, etc) probably lose their hilarity due to cultural changes.
Besides, the creators are South Part are assholes and they try to see how many different segments of the population they can piss off, so I don't think the Japanese are missing anything there.
On September 07 2009 10:19 Cobalt wrote: Anyway I just wrote about 1700 words on the differences between American animation and Japanese animation and the sheer patheticalness of that makes me worry for myself enough that I need food.
It should, especially since you understood the comic entirely backward.
Although from what I understand, this is a fairly accurate (if satirical and exaggerated) portrayal of Japanese fans of American cartoons
It's directed at American fans of Japanese cartoons. Frames 2-4 should be pretty obvious. :/
On September 07 2009 10:19 Cobalt wrote: Anyway I just wrote about 1700 words on the differences between American animation and Japanese animation and the sheer patheticalness of that makes me worry for myself enough that I need food.
It should, especially since you understood the comic entirely backward.
Although from what I understand, this is a fairly accurate (if satirical and exaggerated) portrayal of Japanese fans of American cartoons
It's directed at American fans of Japanese cartoons. Frames 2-4 should be pretty obvious. :/
That was the point. It was supposed to be a satirical image of a hypothetical Japanese fan of American cartoons as a method of giving the typical American anime fan a funny way to get some perspective on himself for liking cartoons. It just so happens that, for those Japanese who -are- fans of American cartoons, they tend to be pretty similar to the satirical image portrayed in the comic. That's what I found most amusing about it.
On September 07 2009 10:06 Humbug wrote: What about other popular American shows? Like uhh...House, or CSI, or 24 or Heroes or w/e (I don't really watch them >_> ) are those shows popular elsewhere around the world?
people do know about 24 and jack bauer, but not the other ones, i think.
On September 07 2009 10:06 Humbug wrote: What about other popular American shows? Like uhh...House, or CSI, or 24 or Heroes or w/e (I don't really watch them >_> ) are those shows popular elsewhere around the world?
people do know about 24 and jack bauer, but not the other ones, i think.
Someone should send them Dexter, that's a good show.
Also I heard that nowadays more American shows storylines are more like Asian drama storylines where the characters and story changes as the series progresses instead instead of say the simpsons where stuff won't change each week.
Japanese watch about the same amount if american cartoons as American's watch anime (counting the dub versions on tv). However, most of the famous ones are old cartoons like popeye, tom and jerry, felix the cat, etc. Here's an example of the original X-men:
You can see it is the original american art, not to mention a nice saint seiya feel too
There are also fansubs for American cartoons, you just have to search them on a japanese site. (Just as how anime fansubs are uploaded on english sites)
On September 07 2009 10:06 Humbug wrote: What about other popular American shows? Like uhh...House, or CSI, or 24 or Heroes or w/e (I don't really watch them >_> ) are those shows popular elsewhere around the world?
A lot of these shows are VERY popular around the world. I remember an article that described CSI Miami as the most popular show in the world with massive appeal in South America for instance.
I have trouble believing as many japanese like american cartoons as americans like japanese ones. I say this though from the perspective of not having talked to many japanese people since its a fairly closed off culture. Granted it is an interesting relationship on how the two are intertwined in so many ways despite being very different. Only thing that gives me trouble is this video a friend of mine sent me of a japanese girl putting a bunch of live fish in a blender, blending it, then pouring it all over herself and getting off to it. Since then its always in the back of my mind no matter how much respect I might give out. This has been for like 2 years now :/
In the very beggining, Japanese Manga and animation were copiying Disney and some French artists. That's why, even now, many Manga characters got so big eyes.
Now, Jp still watch some Disney (Pixar) but definitely not as much as the US watch Jp anime imo.
Although from what I understand, this is a fairly accurate (if satirical and exaggerated) portrayal of Japanese fans of American cartoons, I think it's important to distinguish between the target audiences of various Japanese anime and American cartoons.
For instance, although they are both cartoons, Spongebob and, say, Death Note, aren't really comparable. Cartoons in America are targeted at a much younger audience than most Japanese anime. If I had to hazard a guess, I would figure that Spongebob is aimed at an audience of 4-12 year olds, even if its rating is Y7. Death Note, on the other hand, is part of a subset of anime traditionally regarded as targeting 7-17 year olds, particularly males. Even then, you have to wonder just how many children age 7-10 would be able to enjoy the show.
Regardless of culture, American cartoons and Japanese cartoons are going to appeal to different people, simply because their content is intended to be enjoyed for completely different reasons. Though I guess that isn't really being fair. Granted there definitely exist cartoons that aren't full of ridiculous slapstick. Take Scooby Doo for example, which even used laugh tracks in its episodes the same way sitcoms do because of the similar humor. And there are definitely anime that are as full of crude and "low-level" humor as Spongebob. The biggest difference, I think, lies in the fact that American cartoons are seen as explicitly for younger children (around age 12 is where the shift to live-action shows like Ned's Declassified, Zoey 101, and Drake & Josh begins), whereas the "acceptable" age range for Japanese cartoons is a lot wider.
Because of that, American cartoons are made with the idea of appealing to elementary-school kids in mind, who traditionally enjoy seeing people comically zapped into dust. Japanese cartoons, however, often have the option of doing things like Paranoia Agent, making hidden meanings such as biting social commentary one of the main focuses of the show. Younger children can still enjoy these for their humor, but older children can appreciate their subtleties. Similar tactics are sometimes employed in American children's productions (for instance, Bee Movie's use of what I seem to remember being a parody of David Letterman, which the target audience wouldn't appreciate), but usually they are a side story for the amusement of parents, rather than an underlying focus.
Because of these differences in culture, and in the sort of connotation that anime has in these different cultures, it would seem to me that American cartoons and Japanese cartoons aren't really comparable. The only thing they have in common is the fact that they're animated--and since there are things that can be done only in animation that can't be properly replicated in live action, I would assert that "animation = kids' stuff" doesn't necessarily -have- to be true.
It does make sense that that line of thinking is the current truth, however. Although there are things that can be done in animation that can't be done in live action, the sort of content that would necessitate the use of animation traditionally isn't the sort of content an adult viewer would enjoy. Take the old Sonic the Hedgehog cartoons, for example. An implausible anthropomorphic hedgehog that runs miles in the blink of an eye and whose running animation consists of a continuous circle most definitely would not work in live action. However, what adult would want to see this, when they can see the Miami CSI department investigating a mysterious murder in the real world, with realistic characters, all in live-action? The latter would work in animation, but it isn't necessary. And since live-action work adds a sense of realism that animation simply cannot have, there is literally no benefit to using animation over live action for such a show.
Essentially, animation is ideal for the use the ridiculous and implausible. However, as people grow, they tend to appreciate these things less and less, so they tend toward live action. This leaves children as the only demographic for which using animation is the best idea. A curious exception to this rule is the recent trend of superhero and comic book movies, all of which, as ridiculous as they are, appear to be blockbusters. A potential reason for this is the fact that the comic books being recreated in live action are the same books that would have been read by today's adults: Spiderman, The Fantastic Four, Batman, Superman, etc. Hell, The Dark Knight won how many awards, two of them Oscars? Obviously this would not have been the case had these movies been animated. I guess that the level of realism added by the live action aspect offsets the inherent ridiculousness of a comic book, or perhaps even complements it. After all, apart from the ridiculous outfits and gadgets, Batman isn't too far removed from a potential reality.
My point is that the American cultural belief in the fact that animation is to be reserved for kids' material makes sense, and in fact, it is curious why animation is accepted so much more in Japan. They even have a specific term for anime aimed at men 18 and higher (not due to pornography or other traditional restrictions, but for the fact that only men 18 and higher would probably enjoy it): "seinen." And although the general rule of animation allowing the use of the ridiculous follows in both cultures, "the ridiculous" is different in each one. In the case of America, animators exploit their medium to create slapstick humor and hilariously unrealistic characters, settings, and plot. In Japan, although the unrealistic characters, settings, and plot are retained, they are not generally done so for crude hilarity. In the case of Paranoia Agent, the disturbance factor is greatly increased when things that -should- be ridiculous in-universe can appear the same as the "real" world. Due to things like this, it is apparent that the Japanese are getting full use out of animation to show concepts in a method that live action is unfriendly to. On the other hand, American media often relays the same messages, but in a form more suitable to live action.
If you were to compare these two methods of getting the same message across, do they have the same validity? Are they equal in quality? I would argue that they are not. Realism is an exceptionally important factor when trying to explore a theme or teach a lesson, which leaves live action as a much better method of doing so. Animation is used when the content is too ridiculous for live action to tolerate, and the farther removed from reality the content is, the less effective it is at exploring mature issues. But then, what happens when you want to watch something more mature than Spongebob yet light-hearted enough to be entertaining without having to think? That is where I believe anime has its place, at least in American culture.
Shows like Death Note and Eureka Seven can be watched with either a critical eye or a lazy one, and are enjoyable both ways. Obviously Death Note doesn't explore the human ego and the consequences of giving it godlike power as well as certain novels or live-action TV, and there are things much better than Eureka Seven at delving into problems such as global militarism, reverence for the planet, and persecution of religion. But both of these shows are rife with literary techniques and devices normally reserved for actual literature. Eureka Seven, for example, is pretty much a direct homage to Sir James Frazer's The Golden Bough (which makes repeated appearances in the show itself), exploring the marriage of the sun god and the earth goddess, the sacrificial king, and other concepts Frazer himself explores. Shows like these are ideal for people who want a little ridiculousness in their media, while retaining dignity. American cartoons, on the other hand, have virtually no appeal to these people.
Because of this, I believe in the validity of anime as a respectable type of media, insofar as it is the only media that serves the purpose it does: telling a more mature story than American cartoons while retaining some of the ridiculousness characteristic of the animated medium. It is not necessary, however, for anime to be the only media to work in this role. It is entirely possible to create a Western-style cartoon that serves the same purpose (sadly, Avatar is the only one I can think of). And live action can do something very similar, though not quite the same, as it has been doing with superhero and comic book movies. If I had to compare live action, anime, and Western animation on an arbitrary quality scale, I would rank anime in the middle, with live action on top and Western animation on the bottom. I am not so blind as to suggest that anime is equally respectable as live action work, but I do believe it has its place.
TLDR: In short, anime and American cartoons aren't comparable because of the difference in their intended purpose. American cartoons are targeted at younger children and are animated because the ridiculous slapstick humor and implausible violence (getting zapped into a talking pile of dust, for example) necessary to entertain these younger children aren't usable in live action. Anime, on the other hand, is targeted at a much wider range of people and has a much wider variety of content. There are anime comparable to Spongebob, and there are anime that act as social commentary while exploring psychological issues. Both Western cartoons and Japanese cartoons are animated because their content is far too unrealistic to properly convey in live action, but their differences lead me to believe that anime has its place, and deserves at least some recognition, though most definitely not the same recognition live action work deserves.
Anyway I just wrote about 1700 words on the differences between American animation and Japanese animation and the sheer patheticalness of that makes me worry for myself enough that I need food.
On September 07 2009 07:10 Polyphasic wrote: In the US, there are so many people who watch Japanese Anime.
But I'm just realizing that the US has awesome cartoons too. I know this is old school, but the original x-men and spiderman shows were pretty good. I'm watching them right now, and besides the poor art quality, I'd say the story and suspense and action are better than what's out there in anime like naruto and what not.
Do you think people in Japan ever watch American cartoons, and if they did, which ones do you think they would, and which american cartoons are comparable to japanese Anime in quality?
I think x-men and spiderman is pretty good. Batman wasn't that great and seems it was geared towards a younger population. The new stuff from pixar and dreamworks (wall-e and kungfu panda) are awesome as well, but they don't fall into the cartoon/anime category. Avatar wind bringer is pretty good too.
oh ya, and if Japanese people aren't watching american cartoons as much as american people are watching japanese anime, why do you think this is the case?
I'm totally addicted to the original x-men season 1 series right now.
Old X-men, Old Batman through Justice League Unlimited, old spiderman were all well worth watching
The Spectacular Spider-Man is on par with the 90's series. More people need to watch it.
Tom&Jerry is my favourite cartoon. Simpons is really fun too. I think people like Animes more because of the idealized characters that are nowhere to be seen in cartoons.
Most of today's cartoons have just gone to crap - i miss the 90's and saturday morning cartoons that didn't fail Anime's still got a big lead over our american cartoons though :/
On September 07 2009 07:14 Ziph wrote: They don't watch american cartoons as much as american people watch japanese anime. Why because, Anime obviously is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cartoons.
PS: Naruto sucks.
Truth, i think all mainstream anime is crap tbh but >>>>>>american cartoons cause cartoons is aimed towards younger kids and anime is aimed towards those who are a little older. The best animes is Kinos Journey and Last Exile IMO.
Well, to be fair, I think the overall production values and target audience of many American cartoons differ from Japanese Anime. That being said, its not inconceivable that asians would watch any of american television, though it depends what you define as cartoons (ie, simpsons or ren and stimpy/rugrats/tom and jerry - I think the latter might be less likely). Keep in mind that Japan culture is (somewhat) a mimic of american culture (with a japanese flavor to it), so it wouldn't be suprising if they did. Simply, though, Anime is of much higher quality (generally) than many american cartoons are.
On September 07 2009 07:26 illu wrote: While I can't answer your question, I'd say things like the Simpsons and South Park are obviously only watchable when you are in North America.
On related notes, Growing Pain was extremely popular in China during the 90s; Harry Potter is extremely popular right now in pretty much all of the East-asian countries.
EDIT: You asked the question of why animated shows from Japan have been far more successful than North American ones, even though animated shows originated in America. To answer this question, I suggest you watch the documentary (it's on Youtube) about the history of comic book super heroes. Although it does not directly answer your questions, it can shred some light on the problem.
There's a few good American cartoons here and there (I loved Futurama, Simpsons, X-Men, etc), but most of them suck, and I watch anime on a regular basis.Comparing Japanese anime to american cartoons is an unjust comparison because the genre of anime is so broad, just look at the list here myanimelist.net.
Watching anime is like watching any other series or dramas - the fact that it's animated doesn't mean it's comparable to cartoons. Simply pointing out a differences in the characteristics of both will easily show the difference as why so many people (ie adults) watch anime instead of american cartoons.
Plot - Cartoons usually have a simple and defined plot. And they're usually about the good guys fighting the bad guys. Cartoons rarely go beyond that old cliché. Most Anime series, on the other hand, are also about the same good vs. evil but the plots are rarely simple and rarely predictable. You'll find an element of politics, religion, humanity, and a score of several other abstract concepts within an anime. Whereas cartoons are just about ‘evil' cats chasing ‘innocent' mice or a hero defending himself and others from a very evil bully. Anime can blur the lines between good and evil so much that you'll be left wondering which side is really right. Look at the plot of Gundam, there aren't any good guys or bad guys. They're both fighting for a cause – a worthy one, and both sides are prepared to do good and evil to achieve their goals.There are, however, few exceptions to the ‘cartoons are simple' rule. There are cartoon series that are far advanced like X-men.
Characters - In cartoons, there's a protagonist, an antagonist, and a damsel in distress. Their roles are well-defined and clear and the characters always act according to their roles. In anime, however, the damsel in distress may very well become the antagonist, leaving the protagonist in distress. There's no knowing what to expect in anime. Anime characters, a lot of times, are developed overtime through trials and growth, while cartoon characters remain the same from when the show started. (Of course, there are exceptions such as Spiderman.) Since there's an ongoing plot, Anime characters actually grow up and may even produce the next generation for the series. Anime fans tend to get into the characters a lot deeper because of the characters' depth and charm.
Also, following an anime throughout the season will make you to feel attached towards the show, which when it reaches the end of the series you can't help it that you will miss the show for quite some time.
Yes, there's probably a lot of japanese people watching hit tv series like 24, Heroes, Prison Break, etc. Not quite so for american cartoons. Not even half the number.
Every single one of the Japanese foreign exchange student i know really dislike american cartoons, and any non-japanese cartoon really. Seems to be the same with music, my girlfriend listens to pretty much only Japanese music.
I think the main reason that people watch anime over american cartoons is that the art in general tends to be better. And storylines. And other things in general.
On September 07 2009 07:20 ArvickHero wrote: I really liked all those older cartoons, like Rocko's Modern Life, Hey Arnold, Invader Zim, Rugrats, Catdog, Dexter's Laboratory, Courage, Ed Edd and Eddy, etc etc etc. There were a lot of really great cartoons made in the US. However I really don't think those garner that much interest outside of the US, especially in Japan.
i wouldn't really consider those older cartoons unless you are talking for people ages 14-16 and under?
On September 07 2009 08:00 FabledIntegral wrote: Southpark is quite popular.
And I don't think Japanese anime is THAT popular really, I can't say for sure as I don't watch it much, but honestly almost EVERYONE I know that watches anime at ALL is Asian. I don't know a single white friend that enjoys Japanese anime.
almost everyone that i know from the U.S. who watches anime is white, i actually know more black guys who watch anime than asians
On September 07 2009 09:13 phyre112 wrote: To be completely honest, until I got to college about a week ago, I didn't know what anime WAS. And I can't say I'm at all impressed with what I've found, so the arguement about it being better quality is entirely relative.
The average quality of animes is really low. Most animes are completely generic and produced by reusing over and over the same ingredients that are known to please viewers the best. It's much like salad really - just replace tuna fish by hot girls (one of each type: cute, shy, stern, etc), corn by one average guy, lettuce by shiny magic, mayonnaise by random fights, etc.
I'm quite surprised you didn't like it though. Usually, the new-factor makes even terrible animes pretty enjoyable for some time. I know that when I was a student I watched a lot of really shitty anime I wouldn't even think about watching today, and genuinely liked it.
In any case, I hope you won't cast away the entire anime genre. It's incredibly diverse and there are quite a lot of gems inside. I think anyone can at least find 4-5 series that he'll really really love. The problem is to find them out. :/
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On topic, when I was five years old I watched Dragon Ball on the most mainstream french TV channel and it was epic as fuck but anime on television doesn't seem to have grown much since then (I might be wrong since I haven't had a TV for nine years). But how good is TV to measure people's interest nowadays? Especially when young people are concerned. The people my age often know about some animes and they sure as fuck didn't watch it on national TV.
I'm actually under the impression that the TV is aimed more and more at two categories of people: the 50+, who watch TV because they're used to it, and children, who watch TV because don't know yet how to download stuff'n shit. Anime really doesn't fit these two categories. Quite a lot of cartoons do though. That might explain why there's still more cartoons than animes on national tv today.
Like I said before, I think it simply boils down to nationalism. Not the perceived political psychos, I mean they have pride in things that come from their country and its a fairly closed society. Look at people who do cosplay, what equivalent do the japanese do that echoes american trends to such a scale? I think a lot of it boils down to american kids wanna be nonconformist so they find out about things that are different in the norm, and what's further than the norm than being interested in cultural things from the other side of the world?
On September 09 2009 04:15 Alizee- wrote: Like I said before, I think it simply boils down to nationalism. Not the perceived political psychos, I mean they have pride in things that come from their country and its a fairly closed society. Look at people who do cosplay, what equivalent do the japanese do that echoes american trends to such a scale? I think a lot of it boils down to american kids wanna be nonconformist so they find out about things that are different in the norm, and what's further than the norm than being interested in cultural things from the other side of the world?
Dunno how it is in the USA, but in France, being interested in japanese manga and anime is quite in the norm for people aged 15-25. And despite this fall into mainstream, people haven't been switching to other more exotic destinations. Interest for icelandic culture hasn't been growing as of late. So I really doubt nonconformism is the reason.
I just think that japanese mangas and animes are fresh, entertaining, diverse, sometimes even good, and there is always a lot a new stuff coming out - whereas traditional comics and cartoons, both american or european, just look like they're the same tired old names we already discovered twenty years ago as kids.
On September 09 2009 04:15 Alizee- wrote: Like I said before, I think it simply boils down to nationalism. Not the perceived political psychos, I mean they have pride in things that come from their country and its a fairly closed society. Look at people who do cosplay, what equivalent do the japanese do that echoes american trends to such a scale? I think a lot of it boils down to american kids wanna be nonconformist so they find out about things that are different in the norm, and what's further than the norm than being interested in cultural things from the other side of the world?
Just about every non third world country gets American television and has every student learning English as a second language. You can watch every top box office hit in Japan, even the movie Pearl Harbor was released in Japanese theaters even though it was edited. Most countries have some degree of American obsession that isn't often reciprocated with Japanese Anime being an exception.
This is a video of Japan's biggest Harry Potter fan meeting Daniel Radcliffe for the first time, it is god damn creepy. There are also videos of her meeting Emma Watson and that ginger kid whose name I can't remember. I realize Harry Potter is not from the US it's simply an example from another country I know of off the top of my head.
It isn't that Japan is so nationalistic that they won't accept any trends from the US. Japan is actually really really big on America.
An Intro from the first post from www.gaijinsmash.net a blogish website about a Black American teaching English to middle school students in Japan
You see, Japan's an island no bigger than California, and information about the rest of the world is filtered. There are so few foreigners here, their only impressions of things outside Japan are from the media. And to be honest, they don't really give a damn about anything other than America. So try to imagine a country where the national perception of you is created by American movies, music, and MTV. When you stop crying and shaking at the sheer horror of that thought, I'll be here waiting.
When you ask "Look at people who do cosplay, what equivalent do the japanese do that echoes american trends to such a scale?" ask yourself "what equivalent do the americans do that echoes american trends to such a scale?" There aren't many cartoons in America geared toward people over 16 aside from some exceptions like The Simpsons which is actually very popular in Japan. So if I wanted to compare something similar aged people would watch what shows would I look for? Lost, 24, Desperate Housewives?
Do these shows have obsessive trend followings? Have you ever seen a convention where everyone cosplays Jack Bauer and terrorists? Even if you wanted to get so into these shows that you'd cosplay these people it's not animated and they wear different clothes every show. The most you could do would be a slightly built guy with the same haircut. No one would be able to tell you were trying to be this guy unless there was an elaborate costume.
If you want to look for something to compare equivalent trends on such a scale look for things that some Americans flock to with the same enthusiasm as die hard anime fans.
If you want my opinion I think a show like Twilight could make it huge in Japan given how many teenage girls are absolutely crazy about it. I'd want to say shows like Star Wars and Star Trek, but those are as huge as they are now due to people seeing it when they first came out. If you showed the original Star Trek in Japan today they might not see it in the same ground breaking light. And it's obvious there are some things some Japanese people have gone absolutely crazy over such as that Harry Potter fan.
As soon as I finished this post I realized you were that creepy guy that wrote about fish blender porn. Shit I did not want to talk to you.
I've always thought the reason is simple. American cartoons/comics just aren't as big of an industry as Japanese anime/manga/light novel/visual novel industry. The quantity and quality just doesn't compare. Not to mention American cartoons for the most part cater to kids, not a wide age group. And animated sitcoms like South Park are likely way too cultural-dependent for non-Americans to understand.
On September 07 2009 07:26 hku wrote: protip: Shows in the vain of Ren and Stimpy and Rocko's modern life are NOT great. They are gross.
RML and R&S are considered among the best animated shows of the 1990s and are still revered today. To view them as gross tells me you really haven't watched much of either show. RML had a satirical social commentary while Ren and Stimpy pushed the boundaries cartoons could go. Shows like Ren and Stimpy and Rocko were like the grunge bands of american animation. If you look at cartoons from the 80s, very few weren't extended toy commercials or unique enough to stand out. Shows like R&S and RML, though intended for kids, had a lot of adult oriented subjects (not talking about the sexual innuendos).
EPT
I would say MAYBE x-men, since it's plot line is basically an anime in and of itself, but probably something more along the lines of Dilbert or Clone High.
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