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Bible Required Curriculum - Page 19

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wswordsmen
Profile Joined October 2007
United States987 Posts
August 18 2009 05:25 GMT
#361
On August 18 2009 13:52 Aegraen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2009 12:35 blomsterjohn wrote:
Alltho no matter who's right or wrong, i think the % of this failing is higher than 50% to put it like that, now this may be a unreliable source and i dont live in the us so i wouldnt personally know but however when you get something like this out of a governor pluss a hardcore creationist at the board of education :

"You know, they're telling us which cars to buy and which light bulbs to use now. But they ought not be telling us whether we can go to Baptist, Methodist, whichever one... But it is quite different and, I would say, extreme, to say that our laws should not be inspired and informed by the views of the faithful. Freedom of religion is not to be confused with freedom from religion.


and continuing :

"Under Rick Perry's rule, Texas educators have become virtually indistinguishable from Sunday School teachers. In pursuing his goal to keep students ignorant of earth sciences and vital health issues (like AIDS prevention), Perry just tapped another of his Creationist/Diversity Denier cronies to head the Texas Board of Education. Rackjite dissects the governor's latest appointment, a fundie automaton named Gail Lowe: She rejects the science of Global Warming and Climate Change, she will not tolerate gay friendly books in public school libraries and of course she not only believes that the Earth is 6000 years old and men live in gigantic fishes at the bottom of the sea, but wants to teach that to children in Texas Public Schools... This (appointment) keeps the board unchanged with 7 to 9 of the 15 votes being evangelical fundamentalist Creationists deciding what Texas children read and learn. (At this very moment our Texas teachers are being trained by "religious scholars" on how to best implement a state law signed by Perry that mandates the study of Scripture in high school classroms.)

http://www.progressivepuppy.com/the_progressive_puppy/2009/08/texas-governor-now-promotes-theocracy.html

This was only dug up trought most recent sites and i woulndt be sure how reliable it is but i guess it casts some light on whos running this, it doesn't really seem very "secular" to me


You do know that Natural Law, which is a construct out of Religion; that is, we derive our inalieable rights from a Creator, is the basis for this countrys founding? I would argue that Deism was the main religious foundation for the Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

I like how you lump Global Warming into creationism. I guess if you don't believe in the psuedo sciences used to come about the conclusions of Global Warming you are a creationist fundamentalist, or at least associated with them? Give me a break. There is more science out there that debunks GW than is in favor of it.

In any case, as long as Atheist and Secularist views are in abundance in schools, so shall be religious. If it was me, neither would be inundated in the school system and the Education would be as unbiased as could be, but good luck trying to keep teacher bias of schools as you can plainly see in the College system today in which it's about 90% Lib/Statist/Demo to 10% Cons/Libertarian/Repub.

So, in lieu of the aforementioned you might as well give children both sides. Also, it's quite hilarious to think High School students are incapable of reasoning. Give them both sides, let them make up their own minds. I also believe that as long as you are doing this, you should be giving the kids/parents as much choice as possible to let them decide which school they want to go to; expanding voucher programs and generally privatizing more of the Education system which is massively failing our children. Thanks NEA.

The Declaration Of Independance has no bearing on current law (or minamal) because that is not what governs the US, the constitution does. It says the state shall make no law pertaining to the establisment of a religion in the first amendment. A course on the bible is an establishment of Christianity unless it falls into very specific bounds.

Ya there is more science out there debunking evolution too. (/sarcasm)

Two things it is secular viewpoints that are abuddent in schools not atheistic ones, unless you claim every sentence not involving god is atheistic, which while valid is not something to complain about. A real atheistic veiwpoint would go along the lines of "God does not exist and here's why...." You can get that stuff as close to schools as you can get any other religious propaganda. AKA No where near it (hopefully), for reasons also in the first amendment.

The final paragraph has the flaw of assuming all opions are equally valid and there is time to hear both sides. Neither of those are true.
NExUS1g
Profile Joined December 2007
United States254 Posts
August 18 2009 05:41 GMT
#362
On August 18 2009 12:56 blomsterjohn wrote:
Show nested quote +
You don't study religious texts to learn the Pantheons? Bulfinch's Mythology? Did you read The Diary of Anne Frank? Some people believe the holocaust never existed, so should that be taught as mythology?


wooow wow wow wow, dude read up the definition of myth again


a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

So what in this definition goes against what I was saying?
Aegraen
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1225 Posts
August 18 2009 05:41 GMT
#363
On August 18 2009 14:25 wswordsmen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2009 13:52 Aegraen wrote:
On August 18 2009 12:35 blomsterjohn wrote:
Alltho no matter who's right or wrong, i think the % of this failing is higher than 50% to put it like that, now this may be a unreliable source and i dont live in the us so i wouldnt personally know but however when you get something like this out of a governor pluss a hardcore creationist at the board of education :

"You know, they're telling us which cars to buy and which light bulbs to use now. But they ought not be telling us whether we can go to Baptist, Methodist, whichever one... But it is quite different and, I would say, extreme, to say that our laws should not be inspired and informed by the views of the faithful. Freedom of religion is not to be confused with freedom from religion.


and continuing :

"Under Rick Perry's rule, Texas educators have become virtually indistinguishable from Sunday School teachers. In pursuing his goal to keep students ignorant of earth sciences and vital health issues (like AIDS prevention), Perry just tapped another of his Creationist/Diversity Denier cronies to head the Texas Board of Education. Rackjite dissects the governor's latest appointment, a fundie automaton named Gail Lowe: She rejects the science of Global Warming and Climate Change, she will not tolerate gay friendly books in public school libraries and of course she not only believes that the Earth is 6000 years old and men live in gigantic fishes at the bottom of the sea, but wants to teach that to children in Texas Public Schools... This (appointment) keeps the board unchanged with 7 to 9 of the 15 votes being evangelical fundamentalist Creationists deciding what Texas children read and learn. (At this very moment our Texas teachers are being trained by "religious scholars" on how to best implement a state law signed by Perry that mandates the study of Scripture in high school classroms.)

http://www.progressivepuppy.com/the_progressive_puppy/2009/08/texas-governor-now-promotes-theocracy.html

This was only dug up trought most recent sites and i woulndt be sure how reliable it is but i guess it casts some light on whos running this, it doesn't really seem very "secular" to me


You do know that Natural Law, which is a construct out of Religion; that is, we derive our inalieable rights from a Creator, is the basis for this countrys founding? I would argue that Deism was the main religious foundation for the Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

I like how you lump Global Warming into creationism. I guess if you don't believe in the psuedo sciences used to come about the conclusions of Global Warming you are a creationist fundamentalist, or at least associated with them? Give me a break. There is more science out there that debunks GW than is in favor of it.

In any case, as long as Atheist and Secularist views are in abundance in schools, so shall be religious. If it was me, neither would be inundated in the school system and the Education would be as unbiased as could be, but good luck trying to keep teacher bias of schools as you can plainly see in the College system today in which it's about 90% Lib/Statist/Demo to 10% Cons/Libertarian/Repub.

So, in lieu of the aforementioned you might as well give children both sides. Also, it's quite hilarious to think High School students are incapable of reasoning. Give them both sides, let them make up their own minds. I also believe that as long as you are doing this, you should be giving the kids/parents as much choice as possible to let them decide which school they want to go to; expanding voucher programs and generally privatizing more of the Education system which is massively failing our children. Thanks NEA.

The Declaration Of Independance has no bearing on current law (or minamal) because that is not what governs the US, the constitution does. It says the state shall make no law pertaining to the establisment of a religion in the first amendment. A course on the bible is an establishment of Christianity unless it falls into very specific bounds.

Ya there is more science out there debunking evolution too. (/sarcasm)

Two things it is secular viewpoints that are abuddent in schools not atheistic ones, unless you claim every sentence not involving god is atheistic, which while valid is not something to complain about. A real atheistic veiwpoint would go along the lines of "God does not exist and here's why...." You can get that stuff as close to schools as you can get any other religious propaganda. AKA No where near it (hopefully), for reasons also in the first amendment.

The final paragraph has the flaw of assuming all opions are equally valid and there is time to hear both sides. Neither of those are true.


No actually the First Amendment says: "CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

Can you please show me where Congress passed a law establishing religion?
"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost." -- Murray N. Rothbard -- Rand Paul 2010 -- Ron Paul 2012
NExUS1g
Profile Joined December 2007
United States254 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-18 05:43:42
August 18 2009 05:43 GMT
#364
On August 18 2009 14:25 wswordsmen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2009 13:52 Aegraen wrote:
On August 18 2009 12:35 blomsterjohn wrote:
Alltho no matter who's right or wrong, i think the % of this failing is higher than 50% to put it like that, now this may be a unreliable source and i dont live in the us so i wouldnt personally know but however when you get something like this out of a governor pluss a hardcore creationist at the board of education :

"You know, they're telling us which cars to buy and which light bulbs to use now. But they ought not be telling us whether we can go to Baptist, Methodist, whichever one... But it is quite different and, I would say, extreme, to say that our laws should not be inspired and informed by the views of the faithful. Freedom of religion is not to be confused with freedom from religion.


and continuing :

"Under Rick Perry's rule, Texas educators have become virtually indistinguishable from Sunday School teachers. In pursuing his goal to keep students ignorant of earth sciences and vital health issues (like AIDS prevention), Perry just tapped another of his Creationist/Diversity Denier cronies to head the Texas Board of Education. Rackjite dissects the governor's latest appointment, a fundie automaton named Gail Lowe: She rejects the science of Global Warming and Climate Change, she will not tolerate gay friendly books in public school libraries and of course she not only believes that the Earth is 6000 years old and men live in gigantic fishes at the bottom of the sea, but wants to teach that to children in Texas Public Schools... This (appointment) keeps the board unchanged with 7 to 9 of the 15 votes being evangelical fundamentalist Creationists deciding what Texas children read and learn. (At this very moment our Texas teachers are being trained by "religious scholars" on how to best implement a state law signed by Perry that mandates the study of Scripture in high school classroms.)

http://www.progressivepuppy.com/the_progressive_puppy/2009/08/texas-governor-now-promotes-theocracy.html

This was only dug up trought most recent sites and i woulndt be sure how reliable it is but i guess it casts some light on whos running this, it doesn't really seem very "secular" to me


You do know that Natural Law, which is a construct out of Religion; that is, we derive our inalieable rights from a Creator, is the basis for this countrys founding? I would argue that Deism was the main religious foundation for the Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

I like how you lump Global Warming into creationism. I guess if you don't believe in the psuedo sciences used to come about the conclusions of Global Warming you are a creationist fundamentalist, or at least associated with them? Give me a break. There is more science out there that debunks GW than is in favor of it.

In any case, as long as Atheist and Secularist views are in abundance in schools, so shall be religious. If it was me, neither would be inundated in the school system and the Education would be as unbiased as could be, but good luck trying to keep teacher bias of schools as you can plainly see in the College system today in which it's about 90% Lib/Statist/Demo to 10% Cons/Libertarian/Repub.

So, in lieu of the aforementioned you might as well give children both sides. Also, it's quite hilarious to think High School students are incapable of reasoning. Give them both sides, let them make up their own minds. I also believe that as long as you are doing this, you should be giving the kids/parents as much choice as possible to let them decide which school they want to go to; expanding voucher programs and generally privatizing more of the Education system which is massively failing our children. Thanks NEA.

The Declaration Of Independance has no bearing on current law (or minamal) because that is not what governs the US, the constitution does. It says the state shall make no law pertaining to the establisment of a religion in the first amendment. A course on the bible is an establishment of Christianity unless it falls into very specific bounds.

Ya there is more science out there debunking evolution too. (/sarcasm)

Two things it is secular viewpoints that are abuddent in schools not atheistic ones, unless you claim every sentence not involving god is atheistic, which while valid is not something to complain about. A real atheistic veiwpoint would go along the lines of "God does not exist and here's why...." You can get that stuff as close to schools as you can get any other religious propaganda. AKA No where near it (hopefully), for reasons also in the first amendment.

The final paragraph has the flaw of assuming all opions are equally valid and there is time to hear both sides. Neither of those are true.


You're misinterpreting "establishment of religion". It is read, "Congress can't make a law to prevent or inhibit a religion from being established."
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-18 05:45:25
August 18 2009 05:43 GMT
#365
On August 17 2009 18:51 Etherone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2009 18:20 motbob wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:14 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:09 benjammin wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:04 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:02 CalvinStorm wrote:
Think that's bad? My city has a mandatory course teaching about gay people.


what exactly do they teach?


edit: just so i won't be completely off topic, i believe that the original idea put forth is an excellent one, and that it would benefit an ignorant country like the US ( no offense but ignorance is abundant when it comes to religion, in any country but the US takes the cake from my experience ) But this will be poorly executed by bias teachers, principal, parents, and everyone in between, because let's face it, that's America. It's disappointing but their educational system is too corrupt.


whoa, whoa, whoa, don't paint all of the US with the texas brush


fair enough, by the US i meant anything west of virginia east of nevada and north of florida.


-_-


that last post was in jest, surely you agree that when it comes to religion Americans tend to be a bit over bearing and ignorant. I know i lived in the states most of my life.

Aegraen I am not bashing Christianity, I am simply stating that the US is a biased country when it comes to religion, and to answer your question, i will bash any religious fanatic regardless of the book they carry.

Show nested quote +
On August 17 2009 18:40 Savio wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:04 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:02 CalvinStorm wrote:
Think that's bad? My city has a mandatory course teaching about gay people.


what exactly do they teach?



My school made us watch a movie with gay people having explicit sex so we would be "sensitive".


Now, it was medical school and not high school, so I guess its better.....maybe?



you're kidding... please tell me I am missing the sarcasm


actually I am not kidding. It was during our "Reproduction and Human Sexuality" block. They used to use a more hardcore video (the block chairperson told us) with a lot of oral/anal and apparently really old people (like 80's) having sex, but they got way too many complaints and some kid threw up in class so now its just gay sex.

I never did see how being required to watch gay sex would make us more sensitive.


On August 17 2009 19:13 Foucault wrote:
wtf @ watching gay people having sex. Doesn't sound very professional, and what on earth does that have to do with being a doctor??


Exactly. But the head of the block is a very "activist" lady and I'm pretty sure that "becoming better doctors" was not the only goal whether it was conscious or subconscious.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
benjammin
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2728 Posts
August 18 2009 05:58 GMT
#366
On August 18 2009 14:43 Savio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2009 18:51 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:20 motbob wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:14 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:09 benjammin wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:04 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:02 CalvinStorm wrote:
Think that's bad? My city has a mandatory course teaching about gay people.


what exactly do they teach?


edit: just so i won't be completely off topic, i believe that the original idea put forth is an excellent one, and that it would benefit an ignorant country like the US ( no offense but ignorance is abundant when it comes to religion, in any country but the US takes the cake from my experience ) But this will be poorly executed by bias teachers, principal, parents, and everyone in between, because let's face it, that's America. It's disappointing but their educational system is too corrupt.


whoa, whoa, whoa, don't paint all of the US with the texas brush


fair enough, by the US i meant anything west of virginia east of nevada and north of florida.


-_-


that last post was in jest, surely you agree that when it comes to religion Americans tend to be a bit over bearing and ignorant. I know i lived in the states most of my life.

Aegraen I am not bashing Christianity, I am simply stating that the US is a biased country when it comes to religion, and to answer your question, i will bash any religious fanatic regardless of the book they carry.

On August 17 2009 18:40 Savio wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:04 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:02 CalvinStorm wrote:
Think that's bad? My city has a mandatory course teaching about gay people.


what exactly do they teach?



My school made us watch a movie with gay people having explicit sex so we would be "sensitive".


Now, it was medical school and not high school, so I guess its better.....maybe?



you're kidding... please tell me I am missing the sarcasm


actually I am not kidding. It was during our "Reproduction and Human Sexuality" block. They used to use a more hardcore video (the block chairperson told us) with a lot of oral/anal and apparently really old people (like 80's) having sex, but they got way too many complaints and some kid threw up in class so now its just gay sex.

I never did see how being required to watch gay sex would make us more sensitive.


Show nested quote +
On August 17 2009 19:13 Foucault wrote:
wtf @ watching gay people having sex. Doesn't sound very professional, and what on earth does that have to do with being a doctor??


Exactly. But the head of the block is a very "activist" lady and I'm pretty sure that "becoming better doctors" was not the only goal whether it was conscious or subconscious.


so wait, you are saying that information presented to you with the claim of making you a better, more sensitive doctor may have had underhanded intentions of (hell, i don't know) turning you gay? is that what you're saying?
wash uffitizi, drive me to firenze
NExUS1g
Profile Joined December 2007
United States254 Posts
August 18 2009 06:05 GMT
#367
On August 18 2009 12:42 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2009 12:39 NExUS1g wrote:
On August 18 2009 11:31 Louder wrote:
On August 18 2009 10:51 NExUS1g wrote:
You think that a burning bush that talks isn't fit for the tabloids? I think lighting G.W. on fire would make front page.

But kidding aside, you have a poor opinion and lack of open-mindedness and tolerance toward religion. And I've lived lots of places including backwoods Texas and there are idiots everywhere, it's not just limited to Texas.


There are certainly idiots everywhere, but they're especially numerous here

I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to your assessment of my perspective, but you're making several assumptions. I've said nothing to indicate a lack of open mindedness or tolerance, beyond that I have zero tolerance or open-mindedness for religious education in public schools. I'm not sure you know what open mindedness actually is.

I do have a poor opinion of religion. I don't feel articulating the reasons behind my opinion is worth the time, as I (and any other non-religious person who has tried) know from experience that debating religion with a religious person is a lost cause - religion requires a complete and utter lack of open mindedness as the cost of entry - you have to abandon free thought at the door and believe without question the doctrine of the religion. But I've said too much already, as I don't really want to go into it with you

I'll leave it at this: teaching the Bible in any context in public school is unacceptable. Period.


Greek and Roman mythology is taught in school. Why is it you don't complain about those?

Also, I'm agnostic, so you can't put me in the box labeled "religious".


For starters, I don't think they are required curriculum.

And then there is the fact that greek and roman mythology are not a big part of today's religions.

And finally, the fact that those are a study of beliefs rather than study of a text.

It would be easy to study christian beliefs without studying the actual bible.


This new law allowing a class about the Bible is an elective and not required for students to take.

It doesn't matter how major a religion it is in the modern world, the Greek and Roman pantheon and its mythology are still religions.

And when we study Greek/Roman mythology we read stories of Hercules, Zeus, Hera, Hades, etc. If we study the history of Christianity, we'll read stories about God, Jesus, Jacob, the prophets, etc. There's absolutely no difference other than the one caused by the stigma in peoples' heads.

The only argument I hear to any of this is, "but... it's Christianity! That's different!" Doesn't work, sorry.
Lebesgue
Profile Joined October 2008
4542 Posts
August 18 2009 06:51 GMT
#368
On August 18 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2009 03:28 Lebesgue wrote:
On August 18 2009 02:53 Aegraen wrote:
On August 18 2009 01:47 Jibba wrote:
On August 17 2009 22:30 Aegraen wrote:
I feel lonely as an ardent Austrian/Chicagoan Libertarian on these boards. Damn heavy European base.

I say this all in jest of course; merely pointing out that it's me vs the rush of the wall of water.

I should get some of my other more articulate friends (If thats hard to imagine ~.^) to come over and help me out a bit.

In any event; let's just agree to disagree and you can always move away from Texas if you want so no one is forcing you to do anything. This is a great thing about STATES. If you don't like it move! You can't do that when the Federal Government imposes.

Your views are nothing like Friedman or Hayek at all. Your views come straight from Beck, and he's never read either. Both of their world views had a place for government, and even taxing. Yours doesn't. Linking those two schools together is a bit of a joke as well since this is a purely political discussion and you've just cited two economics schools that are not as close as you think, and are completely distinct from politics.

Politically, I don't think you're as similar to either as you seem to think. You say you've read CoL and others, but not one iota of your posts shows it unless you actually disagree with him.


First off, I've said quite a few times on this board that I am in favor of abolishing the 16th, but not creating a state that has no taxation at all. Contrary to Rothbard, I believe that a standing federal military is a construct of Government as such in the Constitution. However, I am opposed to every proposed taxation on income. I am however in favor of a Flat tax or consumer tax. No more than ~8-10%.

I also have a place for Government and have said it time and time again what their role in the market should be. Ensuring fair practices and upholding contractual obligations; voluntary contracts which are the guiding force of the free-market. That is it. No infusion of funds. No regulatory bodies.

I think you don't understand my positions whatsoever. In all my posts I am consistent; repeating these same principles which are directly inline with Hayek, Mises, and the rest. While not agreeing with everything they say; forming basis for some of my other viewpoints I am directly influenced by them. You can also see in my contemporary political philosophy that it is also directly influenced by limited Government proponents such as Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry.

In any case, those are a general overview of my positions. Government; necessary evil. Limit as much as possible. Free-Market bulwark to Tyranny and Government intervention interferes and distorts market creating a bastardization of the idea of the market in the first place. Freedom, Liberty, Rule of law paramount. What again is not in line with the philosophies that my suppositions propose?


You know that current economic crises is blamed on insufficient regulations in financial markets and erosion of old regulatory laws. That's at least the current view of most economists including Robert Lucas... So well, if there is one role for government it is exactly to regulate the markets when there is a possibility of market failure (incomplete information, moral hazard, adverse selection).

Also I remember that you wrote somewhere that you are for abolishing FED. I am not aware of any economist who would support this claim. Central Banking is one of few developments of economics that actually works...


You do know Milton Friedman called for the abolishment of the FED? There have been many papers on the fraud and theft of Fractional Reserve Banking and manipulation of Inflation. There have also been many papers on how Inflation creates inequality in income disparity and putting that in the hands of a body like the FED is basically shoving the fox in the hen house.



Really? I would actually like to read those articles. Can you recommend one that was published in a peer-review economic journal?

On the other hand there is strong evidence that higher inflation reduced both growth and level of GDP. It is not a coincident most of developed countries keep it low (check out papers on that topic by Robert Barro). More interesting finding is that if the inflation is already low cutting it down even more is more beneficial then when cutting it when it is high (Andres & Hernando).

Also inflation is basically a tax on money holding. How then you can support it if you do not support government intervention in the economy?
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
August 18 2009 07:19 GMT
#369
On August 18 2009 10:17 29 fps wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2009 06:30 travis wrote:
On August 18 2009 06:24 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I'm sure the students and teachers who don't care for it have the option to ignore it. Just like not everyone has to cross their heart and do the flag salute every morning.


apparently you don't know what required curriculum means


i think he means "ignore" as in you sit in class and just don't listen to what the teacher says.

yes, and then if anyone gets a bad grade or a teacher gets reprimanded they can sue and take it all the way to the supreme court.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Aegraen
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1225 Posts
August 18 2009 07:19 GMT
#370
On August 18 2009 15:51 Lebesgue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2009 13:28 Aegraen wrote:
On August 18 2009 03:28 Lebesgue wrote:
On August 18 2009 02:53 Aegraen wrote:
On August 18 2009 01:47 Jibba wrote:
On August 17 2009 22:30 Aegraen wrote:
I feel lonely as an ardent Austrian/Chicagoan Libertarian on these boards. Damn heavy European base.

I say this all in jest of course; merely pointing out that it's me vs the rush of the wall of water.

I should get some of my other more articulate friends (If thats hard to imagine ~.^) to come over and help me out a bit.

In any event; let's just agree to disagree and you can always move away from Texas if you want so no one is forcing you to do anything. This is a great thing about STATES. If you don't like it move! You can't do that when the Federal Government imposes.

Your views are nothing like Friedman or Hayek at all. Your views come straight from Beck, and he's never read either. Both of their world views had a place for government, and even taxing. Yours doesn't. Linking those two schools together is a bit of a joke as well since this is a purely political discussion and you've just cited two economics schools that are not as close as you think, and are completely distinct from politics.

Politically, I don't think you're as similar to either as you seem to think. You say you've read CoL and others, but not one iota of your posts shows it unless you actually disagree with him.


First off, I've said quite a few times on this board that I am in favor of abolishing the 16th, but not creating a state that has no taxation at all. Contrary to Rothbard, I believe that a standing federal military is a construct of Government as such in the Constitution. However, I am opposed to every proposed taxation on income. I am however in favor of a Flat tax or consumer tax. No more than ~8-10%.

I also have a place for Government and have said it time and time again what their role in the market should be. Ensuring fair practices and upholding contractual obligations; voluntary contracts which are the guiding force of the free-market. That is it. No infusion of funds. No regulatory bodies.

I think you don't understand my positions whatsoever. In all my posts I am consistent; repeating these same principles which are directly inline with Hayek, Mises, and the rest. While not agreeing with everything they say; forming basis for some of my other viewpoints I am directly influenced by them. You can also see in my contemporary political philosophy that it is also directly influenced by limited Government proponents such as Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry.

In any case, those are a general overview of my positions. Government; necessary evil. Limit as much as possible. Free-Market bulwark to Tyranny and Government intervention interferes and distorts market creating a bastardization of the idea of the market in the first place. Freedom, Liberty, Rule of law paramount. What again is not in line with the philosophies that my suppositions propose?


You know that current economic crises is blamed on insufficient regulations in financial markets and erosion of old regulatory laws. That's at least the current view of most economists including Robert Lucas... So well, if there is one role for government it is exactly to regulate the markets when there is a possibility of market failure (incomplete information, moral hazard, adverse selection).

Also I remember that you wrote somewhere that you are for abolishing FED. I am not aware of any economist who would support this claim. Central Banking is one of few developments of economics that actually works...


You do know Milton Friedman called for the abolishment of the FED? There have been many papers on the fraud and theft of Fractional Reserve Banking and manipulation of Inflation. There have also been many papers on how Inflation creates inequality in income disparity and putting that in the hands of a body like the FED is basically shoving the fox in the hen house.



Really? I would actually like to read those articles. Can you recommend one that was published in a peer-review economic journal?

On the other hand there is strong evidence that higher inflation reduced both growth and level of GDP. It is not a coincident most of developed countries keep it low (check out papers on that topic by Robert Barro). More interesting finding is that if the inflation is already low cutting it down even more is more beneficial then when cutting it when it is high (Andres & Hernando).

Also inflation is basically a tax on money holding. How then you can support it if you do not support government intervention in the economy?


Sure thing.

Position in regard to Friedman and Hayek:

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/feb/21/jacob-g-hornberger-so-why-not-abolish-federal-rese/

Check out his 1995 Reason Magazine Interview.

Here is a speech by Murry Rothbard about the Federal Reserve, it is a hour long and very informative.



Lew Rockwell President of the Mises Institute:





Misc things to watch:



Start with part one and work your way to part four.
"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost." -- Murray N. Rothbard -- Rand Paul 2010 -- Ron Paul 2012
Etherone
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1898 Posts
August 18 2009 07:36 GMT
#371
On August 18 2009 14:43 Savio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2009 18:51 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:20 motbob wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:14 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:09 benjammin wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:04 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:02 CalvinStorm wrote:
Think that's bad? My city has a mandatory course teaching about gay people.


what exactly do they teach?


edit: just so i won't be completely off topic, i believe that the original idea put forth is an excellent one, and that it would benefit an ignorant country like the US ( no offense but ignorance is abundant when it comes to religion, in any country but the US takes the cake from my experience ) But this will be poorly executed by bias teachers, principal, parents, and everyone in between, because let's face it, that's America. It's disappointing but their educational system is too corrupt.


whoa, whoa, whoa, don't paint all of the US with the texas brush


fair enough, by the US i meant anything west of virginia east of nevada and north of florida.


-_-


that last post was in jest, surely you agree that when it comes to religion Americans tend to be a bit over bearing and ignorant. I know i lived in the states most of my life.

Aegraen I am not bashing Christianity, I am simply stating that the US is a biased country when it comes to religion, and to answer your question, i will bash any religious fanatic regardless of the book they carry.

On August 17 2009 18:40 Savio wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:04 Etherone wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:02 CalvinStorm wrote:
Think that's bad? My city has a mandatory course teaching about gay people.


what exactly do they teach?



My school made us watch a movie with gay people having explicit sex so we would be "sensitive".


Now, it was medical school and not high school, so I guess its better.....maybe?



you're kidding... please tell me I am missing the sarcasm


actually I am not kidding. It was during our "Reproduction and Human Sexuality" block. They used to use a more hardcore video (the block chairperson told us) with a lot of oral/anal and apparently really old people (like 80's) having sex, but they got way too many complaints and some kid threw up in class so now its just gay sex.

I never did see how being required to watch gay sex would make us more sensitive.


Show nested quote +
On August 17 2009 19:13 Foucault wrote:
wtf @ watching gay people having sex. Doesn't sound very professional, and what on earth does that have to do with being a doctor??


Exactly. But the head of the block is a very "activist" lady and I'm pretty sure that "becoming better doctors" was not the only goal whether it was conscious or subconscious.


that's preposterous, wtf is she thinking, who is the retard that aloud this level .. fuck it.

ugh this world is fucked up, so many ignorant overbearing selfish individuals who hold positions of power, it sickens me.

@ aegrean it'll be pages and pages, before you get to an actual discussion, people tend to deliberately miss points and argue semantics indefinitely, even though some will be informed by your contributions you're pretty much wasting your time. I applaud you're diligence though.
kdog3683
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States916 Posts
August 18 2009 07:42 GMT
#372
On August 18 2009 14:18 SatouxKisei wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2009 18:02 KrAzYfoOL wrote:
On August 17 2009 16:38 Lz wrote:
if schools can teach ppl about things as stupid as evolution then they can surely teach people about the Bible from a historical point of view.. you know the stuff our country was buildt on..

Evolution is an integral part of biology, if biology is to be taught then evolution has to be taught along with it. The bible pertains to creationism which is not another subject on it's own. Also the founders of America paid little heed to political beliefs about Christianity, and believed above all, in a secular Government. It's absolutely pathetic that i, a non-American should be informing you about this. Please hang your head in shame good sir.

Yeah Lz, stick to playing starcraft <__<


As ignorant as Lz's comment is, he does portray a large majority of conservative, stupid/uneducatedMccain supporters and is why Texas would have the support to pass such a ridiculous ruling in the first place.
Multiply your efforts.
Aegraen
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1225 Posts
August 18 2009 07:54 GMT
#373
On August 18 2009 16:42 kdog3683 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2009 14:18 SatouxKisei wrote:
On August 17 2009 18:02 KrAzYfoOL wrote:
On August 17 2009 16:38 Lz wrote:
if schools can teach ppl about things as stupid as evolution then they can surely teach people about the Bible from a historical point of view.. you know the stuff our country was buildt on..

Evolution is an integral part of biology, if biology is to be taught then evolution has to be taught along with it. The bible pertains to creationism which is not another subject on it's own. Also the founders of America paid little heed to political beliefs about Christianity, and believed above all, in a secular Government. It's absolutely pathetic that i, a non-American should be informing you about this. Please hang your head in shame good sir.

Yeah Lz, stick to playing starcraft <__<


As ignorant as Lz's comment is, he does portray a large majority of conservative, stupid/uneducatedMccain supporters and is why Texas would have the support to pass such a ridiculous ruling in the first place.


Conservatives do not support McCain. McCain is as liberal as most Democrats. Who do you think preposed a massive new Government mortgage entitlement program?

People are getting Republican = Conservative confused. In fact, most Conservatives aren't Republicans. The Republican party has left Conservatism. These people are Independents and moving generally towards Libertarianism since they do share quite a lot of common perception especially within Economic and Government sector (barring of course some differences).

If you want good Conservative minds you have to look at people like DeMint, etc. Personally, I wish more people become educated about Libertarianism if they did (Along with Austrian Economics; Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, etc.), we wouldn't be in this giant one party mosh. There really is little difference between GOP and Democrats. One merely moves at a pace that is substantially faster than the other, but they are both on the same path. Those who actually argue for legitimate real change for the positive; Ron Paul, Bobb Barr, and the like are cast as "loony" "kooks", don't know what they are talking about, etc. by the power hungry elites in Washington.

Folks, get educated about the history of America, it's free-market industrialization 1865-1900 days, our founding, and the Progressive Era 1900-1940 and its effect both on reversing the notion of our founding; limited Government with free-market principles without Government interference, and it's iron grip on creating more power for itself.

Both the GOP and Democrats are in the business of growing Government. If Government limits itself and becomes "smaller" they both believe that they will lose political power. Of course, this is true as the power paradigm shifts from political bodies, heads of state, and other various bureaucrats to the individual, the community, and generally what is ultimately in the best interest of everyone.

I'm quite tired of the Statists clamoring for more power, more government control, more this, more that, put my paws into this sector, and that sector, and then they rationalize it by creating this false dichotomy that without the Government the world would be in shambles, greedy businessman would steal everything, etc. when it is actually the opposite. One has to look no further than the late 1800s to tell why this is false.

There is no need for the FED, Clayton or Sherman Acts, and other various Government intrusions into the marketplace and peoples lives.

Listen intently, analyze, and learn the facts. Urge everyone to at least intellectually listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta7q1amDAN4


Do not surrender your freedoms and liberties to the Bourgeouis political elites.
"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost." -- Murray N. Rothbard -- Rand Paul 2010 -- Ron Paul 2012
BroOd
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Austin10831 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-18 07:58:42
August 18 2009 07:58 GMT
#374
Aegraen could you summarize your political views without ANY references?
ModeratorSIRL and JLIG.
Tyraz
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
New Zealand310 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-18 08:10:07
August 18 2009 08:07 GMT
#375
Jesus. Aegraen rips through these threads like a wolf in a chicken cage. Honestly, he argues semantics to justify his arguments in like every thread I've read. + Show Spoiler +
p.s. What is it with you and Austrian Economics.


Put simply, this has already been ruled as unconstitutional by Justice Hugo Black:
The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."


Now, lets assume that there will be some person who decides to be a little bitch and say "but its 'voluntary', so that means the state isn't supporting it". This little bitch obviously would not understand the meaning of 'preference', as if he did, he would realize that (even if you COULD aid all religions, which you can't), then you would have to offer ALL possible religions as voluntary options (or else it also comes under several discrimination laws ).

Now all of that up there is if you want to argue semantics. The reality is this cannot even happen in state schools anyway, because then that would be considered financial aid,+ Show Spoiler +
as even if it is done without state funding, if it is on school property then it is still financial aid, since they don't pay rent
which (if you've been paying attention) is also not allowed.

Naturally, if you choose not to believe this Judge, then you can check out the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment for yourselves

100% Pure.
Aegraen
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1225 Posts
August 18 2009 08:19 GMT
#376
On August 18 2009 17:07 Tyraz wrote:
Jesus. Aegraen rips through these threads like a wolf in a chicken cage. Honestly, he argues semantics to justify his arguments in like every thread I've read. + Show Spoiler +
p.s. What is it with you and Austrian Economics.


Put simply, this has already been ruled as unconstitutional by Justice Hugo Black:
Show nested quote +
The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."


Now, lets assume that there will be some person who decides to be a little bitch and say "but its 'voluntary', so that means the state isn't supporting it". This little bitch obviously would not understand the meaning of 'preference', as if he did, he would realize that (even if you COULD aid all religions, which you can't), then you would have to offer ALL possible religions as voluntary options (or else it also comes under several discrimination laws ).

Now all of that up there is if you want to argue semantics. The reality is this cannot even happen in state schools anyway, because then that would be considered financial aid,+ Show Spoiler +
as even if it is done without state funding, if it is on school property then it is still financial aid, since they don't pay rent
which (if you've been paying attention) is also not allowed.

Naturally, if you choose not to believe this Judge, then you can check out the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment for yourselves



Sure....What makes one justices word more valid than another? This is the inherent problem with the SCOTUS. Constitutionalizing your ideology. This was never the intent of the Judicial Branch. James Madison himself the father of the Constitution argued the case against Activism; that is the changing of language over time even though the same words, to have different meanings in each generation. If this is the case the whole Constitution itself is invalidated because it then becomes a political tool for the current expediency of political whims. There is all ready the tools within the Constitution itself to effect change that being a Constitutional Convention, or the Amendment process. The SCOTUS was never intended to rewrite the Constitution because of the Three Co-Equal branches functioning as Montisqiue adopted and the Founders agreed upon and ratified as such. That is why there is an Amendment process, otherwise you have this false duplicity where the branches are not equal and where the SCOTUS itself invalidates the need for the Amendment process. In any event, as Chieft Justice William Rehnquist put it according to the First Amendment and the clause in particular:

http://www.belcherfoundation.org/wallace_v_jaffree_dissent.htm

[All court opinions except for Justice Rehnquist's dissent have been omitted.]

* * * * *


Justice REHNQUIST, dissenting.

Thirty-eight years ago this Court, in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1, 16, 67 S.Ct. 504, 512, 91 L.Ed. 711 (1947), summarized its exegesis of Establishment Clause doctrine thus:



"In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and State.' Reynolds v. United States, [98 U.S. 145, 164, 25 L.Ed. 244 (1879)]."



This language from Reynolds, a case involving the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment rather than the Establishment Clause, quoted from Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association the phrase "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." 8 Writings of Thomas Jefferson 113 (H. Washington ed. 1861).(1)

It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of constitutional history, but unfortunately the Establishment Clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly 40 years. Thomas Jefferson was of course in France at the time the constitutional Amendments known as the Bill of Rights were passed by Congress and ratified by the States. His letter to the Danbury Baptist Association was a short note of courtesy, written 14 years after the Amendments were passed by Congress. He would seem to any detached observer as a less than ideal source of contemporary history as to the meaning of the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment.

Jefferson's fellow Virginian, James Madison, with whom he was joined in the battle for the enactment of the Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty of 1786, did play as large a part as anyone in the drafting of the Bill of Rights. He had two advantages over Jefferson in this regard: he was present in the United States, and he was a leading Member of the First Congress. But when we turn to the record of the proceedings in the First Congress leading up to the adoption of the Establishment Clause of the Constitution, including Madison's significant contributions thereto, we see a far different picture of its purpose than the highly simplified "wall of separation between church and State."

During the debates in the Thirteen Colonies over ratification of the Constitution, one of the arguments frequently used by opponents of ratification was that without a Bill of Rights guaranteeing individual liberty the new general Government carried with it a potential for tyranny. The typical response to this argument on the part of those who favored ratification was that the general Government established by the Constitution had only delegated powers, and that these delegated powers were so limited that the Government would have no occasion to violate individual liberties. This response satisfied some, but not others, and of the 11 Colonies which ratified the Constitution by early 1789, 5 proposed one or another amendments guaranteeing individual liberty. Three--New Hampshire, New York, and Virginia--included in one form or another a declaration of religious freedom. See 3 J. Elliot, Debates on the Federal Constitution 659 (1891); 1 id., at 328. Rhode Island and North Carolina flatly refused to ratify the Constitution in the absence of amendments in the nature of a Bill of Rights. 1 id., at 334; 4 id., at 244. Virginia and North Carolina proposed identical guarantees of religious freedom:



"[A]ll men have an equal, natural and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience, and . . . no particular religious sect or society ought to be favored or established, by law, in preference to others." 3 id., at 659; 4 id., at 244.(2)



On June 8, 1789, James Madison rose in the House of Representatives and "reminded the House that this was the day that he had heretofore named for bringing forward amendments to the Constitution." 1 Annals of Cong. 424. Madison's subsequent remarks in urging the House to adopt his drafts of the proposed amendments were less those of a dedicated advocate of the wisdom of such measures than those of a prudent statesman seeking the enactment of measures sought by a number of his fellow citizens which could surely do no harm and might do a great deal of good. He said, inter alia:



"It appears to me that this House is bound by every motive of prudence, not to let the first session pass over without proposing to the State Legislatures, some things to be incorporated into the Constitution, that will render it as acceptable to the whole people of the United States, as it has been found acceptable to a majority of them. I wish, among other reasons why something should be done, that those who had been friendly to the adoption of this Constitution may have the opportunity of proving to those who were opposed to it that they were as sincerely devoted to liberty and a Republican Government, as those who charged them with wishing the adoption of this Constitution in order to lay the foundation of an aristocracy or despotism. It will be a desirable thing to extinguish from the bosom of every member of the community, any apprehensions that there are those among his countrymen who wish to deprive them of the liberty for which they valiantly fought and honorably bled. And if there are amendments desired of such a nature as will not injure the Constitution, and they can be ingrafted so as to give satisfaction to the doubting part of our fellow-citizens, the friends of the Federal Government will evince that spirit of deference and concession for which they have hitherto been distinguished." Id., at 431-432.



The language Madison proposed for what ultimately became the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment was this:



"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed." Id., at 434.



On the same day that Madison proposed them, the amendments which formed the basis for the Bill of Rights were referred by the House to a Committee of the Whole, and after several weeks' delay were then referred to a Select Committee consisting of Madison and 10 others. The Committee revised Madison's proposal regarding the establishment of religion to read:



"[N]o religion shall be established by law, nor shall the equal rights of conscience be infringed." Id., at 729.



The Committee's proposed revisions were debated in the House on August 15, 1789. The entire debate on the Religion Clauses is contained in two full columns of the "Annals," and does not seem particularly illuminating. See id., at 729-731. Representative Peter Sylvester of New York expressed his dislike for the revised version, because it might have a tendency "to abolish religion altogether." Representative John Vining suggested that the two parts of the sentence be transposed; Representative Elbridge Gerry thought the language should be changed to read "that no religious doctrine shall be established by law." Id., at 729. Roger Sherman of Connecticut had the traditional reason for opposing provisions of a Bill of Rights--that Congress had no delegated authority to "make religious establishments"--and therefore he opposed the adoption of the amendment. Representative Daniel Carroll of Maryland thought it desirable to adopt the words proposed, saying "[h]e would not contend with gentlemen about the phraseology, his object was to secure the substance in such a manner as to satisfy the wishes of the honest part of the community."

Madison then spoke, and said that "he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience." Id., at 730. He said that some of the state conventions had thought that Congress might rely on the Necessary and Proper Clause to infringe the rights of conscience or to establish a national religion, and "to prevent these effects he presumed the amendment was intended, and he thought it as well expressed as the nature of the language would admit." Ibid.

Representative Benjamin Huntington then expressed the view that the Committee's language might "be taken in such latitude as to be extremely hurtful to the cause of religion. He understood the amendment to mean what had been expressed by the gentleman from Virginia; but others might find it convenient to put another construction upon it." Huntington, from Connecticut, was concerned that in the New England States, where state-established religions were the rule rather than the exception, the federal courts might not be able to entertain claims based upon an obligation under the bylaws of a religious organization to contribute to the support of a minister or the building of a place of worship. He hoped that "the amendment would be made in such a way as to secure the rights of conscience, and a free exercise of the rights of religion, but not to patronize those who professed no religion at all." Id., at 730-731.

Madison responded that the insertion of the word "national" before the word "religion" in the Committee version should satisfy the minds of those who had criticized the language. "He believed that the people feared one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combine together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform. He thought that if the word 'national' was introduced, it would point the amendment directly to the object it was intended to prevent." Id., at 731. Representative Samuel Livermore expressed himself as dissatisfied with Madison's proposed amendment, and thought it would be better if the Committee language were altered to read that "Congress shall make no laws touching religion, or infringing the rights of conscience." Ibid.

Representative Gerry spoke in opposition to the use of the word "national" because of strong feelings expressed during the ratification debates that a federal government, not a national government, was created by the Constitution. Madison thereby withdrew his proposal but insisted that his reference to a "national religion" only referred to a national establishment and did not mean that the Government was a national one. The question was taken on Representative Livermore's motion, which passed by a vote of 31 for and 20 against. Ibid.

The following week, without any apparent debate, the House voted to alter the language of the Religion Clauses to read "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or to prevent the free exercise thereof, or to infringe the rights of conscience." Id., at 766. The floor debates in the Senate were secret, and therefore not reported in the Annals. The Senate on September 3, 1789, considered several different forms of the Religion Amendment, and reported this language back to the House:



"Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion." C. Antieau, A. Downey, & E. Roberts, Freedom From Federal Establishment 130 (1964).



The House refused to accept the Senate's changes in the Bill of Rights and asked for a conference; the version which emerged from the conference was that which ultimately found its way into the Constitution as a part of the First Amendment.



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."



The House and the Senate both accepted this language on successive days, and the Amendment was proposed in this form.

On the basis of the record of these proceedings in the House of Representatives, James Madison was undoubtedly the most important architect among the Members of the House of the Amendments which became the Bill of Rights, but it was James Madison speaking as an advocate of sensible legislative compromise, not as an advocate of incorporating the Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty into the United States Constitution. During the ratification debate in the Virginia Convention, Madison had actually opposed the idea of any Bill of Rights. His sponsorship of the Amendments in the House was obviously not that of a zealous believer in the necessity of the Religion Clauses, but of one who felt it might do some good, could do no harm, and would satisfy those who had ratified the Constitution on the condition that Congress propose a Bill of Rights.(3) His original language "nor shall any national religion be established" obviously does not conform to the "wall of separation" between church and State idea which latter-day commentators have ascribed to him. His explanation on the floor of the meaning of his language--"that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law" is of the same ilk. When he replied to Huntington in the debate over the proposal which came from the Select Committee of the House, he urged that the language "no religion shall be established by law" should be amended by inserting the word "national" in front of the word "religion."

It seems indisputable from these glimpses of Madison's thinking, as reflected by actions on the floor of the House in 1789, that he saw the Amendment as designed to prohibit the establishment of a national religion, and perhaps to prevent discrimination among sects. He did not see it as requiring neutrality on the part of government between religion and irreligion. Thus the Court's opinion in Everson--while correct in bracketing Madison and Jefferson together in their exertions in their home State leading to the enactment of the Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty--is totally incorrect in suggesting that Madison carried these views onto the floor of the United States House of Representatives when he proposed the language which would ultimately become the Bill of Rights.

The repetition of this error in the Court's opinion in Illinois ex rel. McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U.S. 203, 68 S.Ct. 461, 92 L.Ed. 649 (1948), and, inter alia, Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421, 82 S.Ct. 1261, 8 L.Ed.2d 601 (1962), does not make it any sounder historically. Finally, in Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 214, 83 S.Ct. 1560, 1567, 10 L.Ed.2d 844 (1963), the Court made the truly remarkable statement that "the views of Madison and Jefferson, preceded by Roger Williams, came to be incorporated not only in the Federal Constitution but likewise in those of most of our States" (footnote omitted). On the basis of what evidence we have, this statement is demonstrably incorrect as a matter of history.(4) And its repetition in varying forms in succeeding opinions of the Court can give it no more authority than it possesses as a matter of fact; stare decisis may bind courts as to matters of law, but it cannot bind them as to matters of history.

None of the other Members of Congress who spoke during the August 15th debate expressed the slightest indication that they thought the language before them from the Select Committee, or the evil to be aimed at, would require that the Government be absolutely neutral as between religion and irreligion. The evil to be aimed at, so far as those who spoke who concerned, appears to have been the establishment of a national church, and perhaps the preference of one religious sect over another; but it was definitely not concerned about whether the Government might aid all religions evenhandedly. If one were to follow the advice of Justice BRENNAN, concurring in Abington School District v. Schempp, supra, at 236, 83 S.Ct., at 1578, 10 L.Ed.2d 844, and construe the Amendment in the light of what particular "practices . . . challenged threaten those consequences which the Framers deeply feared; whether, in short, they tend to promote that type of interdependence between religion and state which the First Amendment was designed to prevent," one would have to say that the First Amendment Establishment Clause should be read no more broadly than to prevent the establishment of a national religion or the governmental preference of one religious sect over another.

The actions of the First Congress, which reenacted the Northwest Ordinance for the governance of the Northwest Territory in 1789, confirm the view that Congress did not mean that the Government should be neutral between religion and irreligion. The House of Representatives took up the Northwest Ordinance on the same day as Madison introduced his proposed amendments which became the Bill of Rights; while at that time the Federal Government was of course not bound by draft amendments to the Constitution which had not yet been proposed by Congress, say nothing of ratified by the States, it seems highly unlikely that the House of Representatives would simultaneously consider proposed amendments to the Constitution and enact an important piece of territorial legislation which conflicted with the intent of those proposals. The Northwest Ordinance, 1 Stat. 50, reenacted the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 and provided that "[r]eligion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." Id., at 52, n. (a). Land grants for schools in the Northwest Territory were not limited to public schools. It was not until 1845 that Congress limited land grants in the new States and Territories to nonsectarian schools. 5 Stat. 788; C. Antieau, A. Downey, & E. Roberts, Freedom From Federal Establishment 163 (1964).

On the day after the House of Representatives voted to adopt the form of the First Amendment Religion Clauses which was ultimately proposed and ratified, Representative Elias Boudinot proposed a resolution asking President George Washington to issue a Thanksgiving Day Proclamation. Boudinot said he "could not think of letting the session pass over without offering an opportunity to all the citizens of the United States of joining with one voice, in returning to Almighty God their sincere thanks for the many blessings he had poured down upon them." 1 Annals of Cong. 914 (1789). Representative Aedanas Burke objected to the resolution because he did not like "this mimicking of European customs"; Representative Thomas Tucker objected that whether or not the people had reason to be satisfied with the Constitution was something that the States knew better than the Congress, and in any event "it is a religious matter, and, as such, is proscribed to us." Id., at 915. Representative Sherman supported the resolution "not only as a laudable one in itself, but as warranted by a number of precedents in Holy Writ: for instance, the solemn thanksgivings and rejoicings which took place in the time of Solomon, after the building of the temple, was a case in point. This example, he thought, worthy of Christian imitation on the present occasion. . . ." Ibid.

Boudinot's resolution was carried in the affirmative on September 25, 1789. Boudinot and Sherman, who favored the Thanksgiving Proclamation, voted in favor of the adoption of the proposed amendments to the Constitution, including the Religion Clauses; Tucker, who opposed the Thanksgiving Proclamation, voted against the adoption of the amendments which became the Bill of Rights.

Within two weeks of this action by the House, George Washington responded to the Joint Resolution which by now had been changed to include the language that the President "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness." 1 J. Richardson, Messages and Papers of the Presidents, 1789-1897, p. 64 (1897). The Presidential Proclamation was couched in these words:



"Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

"And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally, to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best." Ibid.



George Washington, John Adams, and James Madison all issued Thanksgiving Proclamations; Thomas Jefferson did not, saying:



"Fasting and prayer are religious exercises; the enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands, where the Constitution has deposited it." 11 Writings of Thomas Jefferson 429 (A. Lipscomb ed. 1904).



As the United States moved from the 18th into the 19th century, Congress appropriated time and again public moneys in support of sectarian Indian education carried on by religious organizations. Typical of these was Jefferson's treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians, which provided annual cash support for the Tribe's Roman Catholic priest and church.(5) It was not until 1897, when aid to sectarian education for Indians had reached $500,000 annually, that Congress decided thereafter to cease appropriating money for education in sectarian schools. See Act of June 7, 1897, 30 Stat. 62, 79; cf. Quick Bear v. Leupp, 210 U.S. 50, 77-79, 28 S.Ct. 690, 694-696, 52 L.Ed. 954 (1908); J. O'Neill, Religion and Education Under the Constitution 118-119 (1949). See generally R. Cord, Separation of Church and State 61-82 (1982). This history shows the fallacy of the notion found in Everson that "no tax in any amount" may be levied for religious activities in any form. 330 U.S., at 15-16, 67 S.Ct., at 511-512.

Joseph Story, a Member of this Court from 1811 to 1845, and during much of that time a professor at the Harvard Law School, published by far the most comprehensive treatise on the United States Constitution that had then appeared. Volume 2 of Story's Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States 630-632 (5th ed. 1891) discussed the meaning of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment this way:



"Probably at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the amendment to it now under consideration [First Amendment], the general if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.



. . . . .

"The real object of the [First] [A]mendment was not to countenance, much less to advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects, and to prevent any national ecclesiastical establishment which should give to a hierarchy the exclusive patronage of the national government. It thus cut off the means of religious persecution (the vice and pest of former ages), and of the subversion of the rights of conscience in matters of religion, which had been trampled upon almost from the days of the Apostles to the present age. . . ." (Footnotes omitted.)



Thomas Cooley's eminence as a legal authority rivaled that of Story. Cooley stated in his treatise entitled Constitutional Limitations that aid to a particular religious sect was prohibited by the United States Constitution, but he went on to say:



"But while thus careful to establish, protect, and defend religious freedom and equality, the American constitutions contain no provisions which prohibit the authorities from such solemn recognition of a superintending Providence in public transactions and exercises as the general religious sentiment of mankind inspires, and as seems meet and proper in finite and dependent beings. Whatever may be the shades of religious belief, all must acknowledge the fitness of recognizing in important human affairs the superintending care and control of the Great Governor of the Universe, and of acknowledging with thanksgiving his boundless favors, or bowing in contrition when visited with the penalties of his broken laws. No principle of constitutional law is violated when thanksgiving or fast days are appointed; when chaplains are designated for the army and navy; when legislative sessions are opened with prayer or the reading of the Scriptures, or when religious teaching is encouraged by a general exemption of the houses of religious worship from taxation for the support of State government. Undoubtedly the spirit of the Constitution will require, in all these cases, that care be taken to avoid discrimination in favor of or against any one religious denomination or sect; but the power to do any of these things does not become unconstitutional simply because of its susceptibility to abuse. . . ." Id., at * 470--* 471.



Cooley added that

"[t]his public recognition of religious worship, however, is not based entirely, perhaps not even mainly, upon a sense of what is due to the Supreme Being himself as the author of all good and of all law; but the same reasons of state policy which induce the government to aid institutions of charity and seminaries of instruction will incline it also to foster religious worship and religious institutions, as conservators of the public morals and valuable, if not indispensable, assistants to the preservation of the public order." Id., at *470.



It would seem from this evidence that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment had acquired a well-accepted meaning: it forbade establishment of a national religion, and forbade preference among religious sects or denominations. Indeed, the first American dictionary defined the word "establishment" as "the act of establishing, founding, ratifying or ordaining," such as in "[t]he episcopal form of religion, so called, in England." 1 N. Webster, American Dictionary of the English Language (1st ed. 1828). The Establishment Clause did not require government neutrality between religion and irreligion nor did it prohibit the Federal Government from providing nondiscriminatory aid to religion. There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the Framers intended to build the "wall of separation" that was constitutionalized in Everson.

Notwithstanding the absence of a historical basis for this theory of rigid separation, the wall idea might well have served as a useful albeit misguided analytical concept, had it led this Court to unified and principled results in Establishment Clause cases. The opposite, unfortunately, has been true; in the 38 years since Everson our Establishment Clause cases have been neither principled nor unified. Our recent opinions, many of them hopelessly divided pluralities,(6) have with embarrassing candor conceded that the "wall of separation" is merely a "blurred, indistinct, and variable barrier," which "is not wholly accurate" and can only be "dimly perceived." Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602, 614, 91 S.Ct. 2105, 2112, 29 L.Ed.2d 745 (1971); Tilton v. Richardson, 403 U.S. 672, 677-678, 91 S.Ct. 2091, 2095-2096, 29 L.Ed.2d 790 (1971); Wolman v. Walter, 433 U.S. 229, 236, 97 S.Ct. 2593, 2599, 53 L.Ed.2d 714 (1977); Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668, 673, 104 S.Ct. 1355, 1359, 79 L.Ed.2d 745 (1984).

Whether due to its lack of historical support or its practical unworkability, the Everson "wall" has proved all but useless as a guide to sound constitutional adjudication. It illustrates only too well the wisdom of Benjamin Cardozo's observation that "[m]etaphors in law are to be narrowly watched, for starting as devices to liberate thought, they end often by enslaving it." Berkey v. Third Avenue R. Co., 244 N.Y. 84, 94, 155 N.E. 58, 61 (1926).

But the greatest injury of the "wall" notion is its mischievous diversion of judges from the actual intentions of the drafters of the Bill of Rights. The "crucible of litigation," ante, at 2487, is well adapted to adjudicating factual disputes on the basis of testimony presented in court, but no amount of repetition of historical errors in judicial opinions can make the errors true. The "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.

The Court has more recently attempted to add some mortar to Everson's wall through the three-part test of Lemon v. Kurtzman, supra, 403 U.S., at 614-615, 91 S.Ct., at 2112, which served at first to offer a more useful test for purposes of the Establishment Clause than did the "wall" metaphor. Generally stated, the Lemon test proscribes state action that has a sectarian purpose or effect, or causes an impermissible governmental entanglement with religion.

Lemon cited Board of Education v. Allen, 392 U.S. 236, 243, 88 S.Ct. 1923, 1926, 20 L.Ed.2d 1060 (1968), as the source of the "purpose" and "effect" prongs of the three-part test. The Allen opinion explains, however, how it inherited the purpose and effect elements from Schempp and Everson, both of which contain the historical errors described above. See Allen, supra, at 243, 88 S.Ct., at 1926. Thus the purpose and effect prongs have the same historical deficiencies as the wall concept itself: they are in no way based on either the language or intent of the drafters.

The secular purpose prong has proven mercurial in application because it has never been fully defined, and we have never fully stated how the test is to operate. If the purpose prong is intended to void those aids to sectarian institutions accompanied by a stated legislative purpose to aid religion, the prong will condemn nothing so long as the legislature utters a secular purpose and says nothing about aiding religion. Thus the constitutionality of a statute may depend upon what the legislators put into the legislative history and, more importantly, what they leave out. The purpose prong means little if it only requires the legislature to express any secular purpose and omit all sectarian references, because legislators might do just that. Faced with a valid legislative secular purpose, we could not properly ignore that purpose without a factual basis for doing so. Larson v. Valente, 456 U.S. 228, 262-263, 102 S.Ct. 1673, 1692-1693, 72 L.Ed.2d 33 (1982) (WHITE, J., dissenting).

However, if the purpose prong is aimed to void all statutes enacted with the intent to aid sectarian institutions, whether stated or not, then most statutes providing any aid, such as textbooks or bus rides for sectarian school children, will fail because one of the purposes behind every statute, whether stated or not, is to aid the target of its largesse. In other words, if the purpose prong requires an absence of any intent to aid sectarian institutions, whether or not expressed, few state laws in this area could pass the test, and we would be required to void some state aids to religion which we have already upheld. E.g., Allen, supra.

The entanglement prong of the Lemon test came from Walz v. Tax Comm'n, 397 U.S. 664, 674, 90 S.Ct. 1409, 1414, 25 L.Ed.2d 697 (1970). Walz involved a constitutional challenge to New York's time-honored practice of providing state property tax exemptions to church property used in worship. The Walz opinion refused to "undermine the ultimate constitutional objective [of the Establishment Clause] as illuminated by history," id., at 671, 90 S.Ct., at 1412, and upheld the tax exemption. The Court examined the historical relationship between the State and church when church property was in issue, and determined that the challenged tax exemption did not so entangle New York with the church as to cause an intrusion or interference with religion. Interferences with religion should arguably be dealt with under the Free Exercise Clause, but the entanglement inquiry in Walz was consistent with that case's broad survey of the relationship between state taxation and religious property.

We have not always followed Walz's reflective inquiry into entanglement, however. E.g., Wolman, supra, 433 U.S., at 254, 97 S.Ct., at 2608. One of the difficulties with the entanglement prong is that, when divorced from the logic of Walz, it creates an "insoluable paradox" in school aid cases: we have required aid to parochial schools to be closely watched lest it be put to sectarian use, yet this close supervision itself will create an entanglement. Roemer v. Maryland Bd. of Public Works, 426 U.S. 736, 768-769, 96 S.Ct. 2337, 2355-2356, 49 L.Ed.2d 179 (1976) (WHITE, J., concurring in judgment). For example, in Wolman, supra, the Court in part struck the State's nondiscriminatory provision of buses for parochial school field trips, because the state supervision of sectarian officials in charge of field trips would be too onerous. This type of self-defeating result is certainly not required to ensure that States do not establish religions.

The entanglement test as applied in cases like Wolman also ignores the myriad state administrative regulations properly placed upon sectarian institutions such as curriculum, attendance, and certification requirements for sectarian schools, or fire and safety regulations for churches. Avoiding entanglement between church and State may be an important consideration in a case like Walz, but if the entanglement prong were applied to all state and church relations in the automatic manner in which it has been applied to school aid cases, the State could hardly require anything of church-related institutions as a condition for receipt of financial assistance.

These difficulties arise because the Lemon test has no more grounding in the history of the First Amendment than does the wall theory upon which it rests. The three-part test represents a determined effort to craft a workable rule from a historically faulty doctrine; but the rule can only be as sound as the doctrine it attempts to service. The three-part test has simply not provided adequate standards for deciding Establishment Clause cases, as this Court has slowly come to realize. Even worse, the Lemon test has caused this Court to fracture into unworkable plurality opinions, see n. 6, supra, depending upon how each of the three factors applies to a certain state action. The results from our school services cases show the difficulty we have encountered in making the Lemon test yield principled results.

For example, a State may lend to parochial school children geography textbooks(7)that contain maps of the United States, but the State may not lend maps of the United States for use in geography class.(8) A State may lend textbooks on American colonial history, but it may not lend a film on George Washington, or a film projector to show it in history class. A State may lend classroom workbooks, but may not lend workbooks in which the parochial school children write, thus rendering them nonreusable.(9) A State may pay for bus transportation to religious schools(10)but may not pay for bus transportation from the parochial school to the public zoo or natural history museum for a field trip.(11) A State may pay for diagnostic services conducted in the parochial school but therapeutic services must be given in a different building; speech and hearing "services" conducted by the State inside the sectarian school are forbidden, Meek v. Pittenger, 421 U.S. 349, 367, 371, 95 S.Ct. 1753, 1764, 1766, 49 L.Ed.2d 179 (1975), but the State may conduct speech and hearing diagnostic testing inside the sectarian school. Wolman, 433 U.S., at 241, 97 S.Ct., at 2602. Exceptional parochial school students may receive counseling, but it must take place outside of the parochial school,(12)such as in a trailer parked down the street. Id., at 245, 97 S.Ct., at 2604. A State may give cash to a parochial school to pay for the administration of state-written tests and state-ordered reporting services,(13)but it may not provide funds for teacher-prepared tests on secular subjects.(14) Religious instruction may not be given in public school,(15)but the public school may release students during the day for religion classes elsewhere, and may enforce attendance at those classes with its truancy laws.(16)

These results violate the historically sound principle "that the Establishment Clause does not forbid governments . . . to [provide] general welfare under which benefits are distributed to private individuals, even though many of those individuals may elect to use those benefits in ways that 'aid' religious instruction or worship." Committee for Public Education & Religious Liberty v. Nyquist, 413 U.S. 756, 799, 93 S.Ct. 2955, 2989, 37 L.Ed.2d 948 (1973) (BURGER, C.J., concurring in part and dissenting in part). It is not surprising in the light of this record that our most recent opinions have expressed doubt on the usefulness of the Lemon test.

Although the test initially provided helpful assistance, e.g., Tilton v. Richardson, 403 U.S. 672, 91 S.Ct. 2091, 29 L.Ed.2d 790 (1971), we soon began describing the test as only a "guideline," Committee for Public Education & Religious Liberty v. Nyquist, supra, and lately we have described it as "no more than [a] useful signpos[t]." Mueller v. Allen, 463 U.S. 388, 394, 103 S.Ct. 3062, 3066, 77 L.Ed.2d 721 (1983), citing Hunt v. McNair, 413 U.S. 734, 741, 93 S.Ct. 2868, 2873, 37 L.Ed.2d 923 (1973); Larkin v. Grendel's Den, Inc., 459 U.S. 116, 103 S.Ct. 505, 74 L.Ed.2d 297 (1982). We have noted that the Lemon test is "not easily applied," Meek, supra, 421 U.S., at 358, 95 S.Ct., at 1759, and as Justice WHITE noted in Committee for Public Education v. Regan, 444 U.S. 646, 100 S.Ct. 840, 63 L.Ed.2d 94 (1980), under the Lemon test we have "sacrifice[d] clarity and predictability for flexibility." 444 U.S., at 662, 100 S.Ct., at 851. In Lynch we reiterated that the Lemon test has never been binding on the Court, and we cited two cases where we had declined to apply it. 465 U.S., at 679, 104 S.Ct., at 1362, citing Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 103 S.Ct. 3330, 77 L.Ed.2d 1019 (1983); Larson v. Valente, 456 U.S. 228, 102 S.Ct. 1673, 72 L.Ed.2d 33 (1982).

If a constitutional theory has no basis in the history of the amendment it seeks to interpret, is difficult to apply and yields unprincipled results, I see little use in it. The "crucible of litigation," ante, at 2487, has produced only consistent unpredictability, and today's effort is just a continuation of "the sisyphean task of trying to patch together the 'blurred, indistinct and variable barrier' described in Lemon v. Kurtzman." Regan, supra, 444 U.S., at 671, 100 S.Ct., at 855 (STEVENS, J., dissenting). We have done much straining since 1947, but still we admit that we can only "dimly perceive" the Everson wall. Tilton, supra. Our perception has been clouded not by the Constitution but by the mists of an unnecessary metaphor.

The true meaning of the Establishment Clause can only be seen in its history. See Walz, 397 U.S., at 671-673, 90 S.Ct., at 1412-1413; see also Lynch, supra, at 673-678, 104 S.Ct., at 1359-1362. As drafters of our Bill of Rights, the Framers inscribed the principles that control today. Any deviation from their intentions frustrates the permanence of that Charter and will only lead to the type of unprincipled decision-making that has plagued our Establishment Clause cases since Everson.

The Framers intended the Establishment Clause to prohibit the designation of any church as a "national" one. The Clause was also designed to stop the Federal Government from asserting a preference for one religious denomination or sect over others. Given the "incorporation" of the Establishment Clause as against the States via the Fourteenth Amendment in Everson, States are prohibited as well from establishing a religion or discriminating between sects. As its history abundantly shows, however, nothing in the Establishment Clause requires government to be strictly neutral between religion and irreligion, nor does that Clause prohibit Congress or the States from pursuing legitimate secular ends through nondiscriminatory sectarian means.

The Court strikes down the Alabama statute because the State wished to "characterize prayer as a favored practice." Ante, at 2492. It would come as much of a shock to those who drafted the Bill of Rights as it will to a large number of thoughtful Americans today to learn that the Constitution, as construed by the majority, prohibits the Alabama Legislature from "endorsing" prayer. George Washington himself, at the request of the very Congress which passed the Bill of Rights, proclaimed a day of "public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God." History must judge whether it was the Father of his Country in 1789, or a majority of the Court today, which has strayed from the meaning of the Establishment Clause.

The State surely has a secular interest in regulating the manner in which public schools are conducted. Nothing in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, properly understood, prohibits any such generalized "endorsement" of prayer. I would therefore reverse the judgment of the Court of Appeals.
__________________

1. Reynolds is the only authority cited as direct precedent for the "wall of separation theory." 330 U.S., at 16, 67 S.Ct., at 512. Reynolds is truly inapt; it dealt with a Mormon's Free Exercise Clause challenge to a federal polygamy law.

2. The New York and Rhode Island proposals were quite similar. They stated that no particular "religious sect or society ought to be favored or established by law in preference to others." 1 Elliot's Debates, at 328; id., at 334.

3. In a letter he sent to Jefferson in France, Madison stated that he did not see much importance in a Bill of Rights but he planned to support it because it was "anxiously desired by others . . . [and] it might be of use, and if properly executed could not be of disservice." 5 Writings of James Madison, 271 (G. Hunt ed. 1904).

4. State establishments were prevalent throughout the late 18th and early 19th centuries. See Mass. Const. of 1780, Part 1, Art. III; N. H. Const. of 1784, Art. VI; Md. Declaration of Rights of 1776, Art. XXXIII; R. I. Charter of 1633 (superseded 1842).

5. The treaty stated in part:



"And whereas, the greater part of said Tribe have been baptized and received into the Catholic church, to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion . . . [a]nd . . . three hundred dollars, to assist the said Tribe in the erection of a church." 7 Stat. 79.



From 1789 to 1823 the United States Congress had provided a trust endowment of up to 12,000 acres of land "for the Society of the United Brethren, for propagating the Gospel among the Heathen." See, e.g., ch. 46, 1 Stat. 490. The Act creating this endowment was renewed periodically and the renewals were signed into law by Washington, Adams, and Jefferson.

Congressional grants for the aid of religion were not limited to Indians. In 1787 Congress provided land to the Ohio Company, including acreage for the support of religion. This grant was reauthorized in 1792. See 1 Stat. 257. In 1833 Congress authorized the State of Ohio to sell the land set aside for religion and use the proceeds "for the support of religion . . . and for no other use or purpose whatsoever. . . ." 4 Stat. 618-619.

6. Tilton v. Richardson, 403 U.S. 672, 677, 91 S.Ct. 2091, 2095, 29 L.Ed.2d 790 (1971); Meek v. Pittenger, 421 U.S. 349, 95 S.Ct. 1753, 44 L.Ed.2d 217 (1975) (partial); Roemer v. Maryland Bd. of Public Works, 426 U.S. 736, 96 S.Ct. 2337, 49 L.Ed.2d 179 (1976); Wolman v. Walter, 433 U.S. 229, 97 S.Ct. 2593, 53 L.Ed.2d 714 (1977).

Many of our other Establishment Clause cases have been decided by bare 5-4 majorities. Committee for Public Education & Religious Liberty v. Regan, 444 U.S. 646, 100 S.Ct. 840, 63 L.Ed.2d 94 (1980); Larson v. Valente, 456 U.S. 228, 102 S.Ct. 1673, 72 L.Ed.2d 33 (1982); Mueller v. Allen, 463 U.S. 388, 103 S.Ct. 3062, 77 L.Ed.2d 721 (1983); Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668, 104 S.Ct. 1355, 29 L.Ed.2d 745 (1984); cf. Levitt v. Committee for Public Education & Religious Liberty, 413 U.S. 472, 93 S.Ct. 2814, 37 L.Ed.2d 736 (1973).

7. Board of Education v. Allen, 392 U.S. 236, 88 S.Ct. 1923, 20 L.Ed.2d 1060 (1968).

8. Meek, 421 U.S., at 362-366, 95 S.Ct., at 1761-1763. A science book is permissible, a science kit is not. See Wolman, 433 U.S., at 249, 97 S.Ct., at 2606.

9. See Meek, supra, at 354-355, nn. 3, 4, 362-366, 95 S.Ct., at 1761-1763.

10. Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1, 67 S.Ct. 504, 91 L.Ed. 711 (1947).

11. Wolman, supra, 433 U.S., at 252-255, 97 S.Ct., at 2608-2609.

12. Wolman, supra, at 241-248, 97 S.Ct., at 2602-2605; Meek, supra, at 352, n. 2, 367-373, 95 S.Ct., at 1756, n. 2, 1764-1767.

13. Regan, 444 U.S., at 648, 657-659, 100 S.Ct., at 844, 848-849.

14. Levitt, 413 U.S., at 479-482, 93 S.Ct., at 2818-2820.

15. Illinois ex rel. McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U.S. 203, 68 S.Ct. 461, 92 L.Ed. 649 (1948).

16. Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306, 72 S.Ct. 679, 96 L.Ed. 954 (1952).

"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost." -- Murray N. Rothbard -- Rand Paul 2010 -- Ron Paul 2012
BroOd
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Austin10831 Posts
August 18 2009 08:21 GMT
#377
haha

On August 18 2009 16:58 BroOd wrote:
Aegraen could you summarize your political views without ANY references?

ModeratorSIRL and JLIG.
Aegraen
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1225 Posts
August 18 2009 08:24 GMT
#378
On August 18 2009 16:58 BroOd wrote:
Aegraen could you summarize your political views without ANY references?


I've done so on numerous occasions. If you want to know my political ideology all you have to do is go through my posts. I think its quite obvious where I stand and I've made it abundantly clear, so I'm not really sure the point behind your post. You are surely capable of understanding my positions without me having to go bullet by bullet and guide your hand, correct?

"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost." -- Murray N. Rothbard -- Rand Paul 2010 -- Ron Paul 2012
SWOLE
Profile Joined June 2009
United States91 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-18 08:32:18
August 18 2009 08:32 GMT
#379
On August 18 2009 16:54 Aegraen wrote:

I'm quite tired of the Statists clamoring for more power, more government control, more this, more that, put my paws into this sector, and that sector, and then they rationalize it by creating this false dichotomy that without the Government the world would be in shambles, greedy businessman would steal everything, etc. when it is actually the opposite.


Just look at how great Somalia is doing without a government. It's a libertarian paradise! I suggest you go there now.
BroOd
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Austin10831 Posts
August 18 2009 08:33 GMT
#380
On August 18 2009 17:24 Aegraen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2009 16:58 BroOd wrote:
Aegraen could you summarize your political views without ANY references?


I've done so on numerous occasions. If you want to know my political ideology all you have to do is go through my posts. I think its quite obvious where I stand and I've made it abundantly clear, so I'm not really sure the point behind your post. You are surely capable of understanding my positions without me having to go bullet by bullet and guide your hand, correct?



Perhaps you could link me to such posts. I'm looking for those born of your own ideology, and not that of your heroes.
ModeratorSIRL and JLIG.
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