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On March 28 2009 20:44 datscilly wrote:
Nuada, the paradox situations are NOT solved by 50/50 chance. In the FAQ they mention that only as a simplification so that even newbies can understand. The paradox situations are resolved based on the phase of the paradox events with respect to the time window and the time waves. People who read through my post above will understand how the game mechanics actually work.
Eh, your post makes the paradox very clear, and the same paradox is mentioned in the FAQ, where the answer is "maybe you're pro enough to time it, but in the end you have a 50/50 chance"
Q. I am so good at RTS games that I have strategies named after me, and my head has not exploded. I wonder how the game would resolve this complex example: Player A sends units back in time and destroys player B's factories. Before the timewaves reach the present, player B sends his army back in time and destroys player A's factories.
A. This is definitely a paradox. It will oscillate between these two states. If you're as good of a player as you claim, you might be able to time everything just so such that the paradox falls off the timeline in your favor. At worst, it's worth trying, as you have a 50-50 shot of getting your units back. While I told the person whose head was exploding that such paradoxes aren't too common in games, they can definitely happen much more frequently in games between advanced players (if we crank up the AI difficulty to 11, this does happen frequently).
Here he also says that as the level of play increases, so do the the occurrences of paradox situations. Therefore increasing the number of 50/50 scenarios, therefore breaking the game on a competitive level.
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datscilly knows what he's talking about.
I like the inclusion of the 8 minute window before paradoxes are resolved and events are 'set' in time, i think it'll prevent the game from becoming just end-game armies fighting over initial resource locations.
Also I don't think there are moving peons like in other rts, judging from the videos. Maybe you get resources based on 'mines' constructed over resources, which give money at a set rate. (or something)
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United States47024 Posts
On March 29 2009 03:23 TaP.Nuada wrote:
Eh, your post makes the paradox very clear, and the same paradox is mentioned in the FAQ, where the answer is "maybe you're pro enough to time it, but in the end you have a 50/50 chance"
As we've seen from Starcraft's history, game developers often underestimate the eventual level of skill that players reach. On the one hand paradoxes at higher levels occur more frequently, but at the same time, players might be more skilled at getting paradoxes to resolve in their favor. Its all speculation of course. Obviously we'd have to get our hands on the game to know how the timing actually works out.
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On March 29 2009 03:25 Equaoh wrote:
datscilly knows what he's talking about.
I like the inclusion of the 8 minute window before paradoxes are resolved and events are 'set' in time, i think it'll prevent the game from becoming just end-game armies fighting over initial resource locations.
Also I don't think there are moving peons like in other rts, judging from the videos. Maybe you get resources based on 'mines' constructed over resources, which give money at a set rate. (or something)
I'll take the word of the game developers saying it's 50/50 over datscilly.
To answer the question about how fast you regenerate chronoenergy
Q. I see that the chronoenergy refills really fast in the demo videos. Does it refill this fast in the actual game?
A. No, it refills more slowly and is configurable. We made it refill fast to make the demo videos flow nicely and to prevent out-takes.
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interesting.
my only issue is the terrible graphics..
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so doesn't this boil down to a series of coinflips in the end (in a competitive 1v1 scenario)? obviously anything constructed at time X is exponentially more powerful at time X-8, so as the game moves from time X1 to X2 X3 X4, etc, most of what's actually going to decide the outcome will be decided at time X-7 X-6 X-5 X-4, however due to the propagation of the waves, the results in X1 as a result of fighting in X-7 will, for one player, be either in a 'win' or 'lose' state. if they win at X-7, they will be that much stronger at X2 so that they can create a larger advantage in X-6
i suppose depending on how regeneration of chronoenergy is balanced, you might actually have to think which is the most optimal time to port to, as opposed to just porting to curTime-8 and trying to deal as much damage as possible. (however it seems it's always more effective to, say, have a larger army to kill templar archives before they can research storm as opposed to having an even larger army but also having to fight the templars)
i imagine this would make for some sick single player action, although for multiplayer, i'm not so sure o_O
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great idea...now the question is whether or not the game will be successful in the market. I might be too confusing for new players
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This is a great idea conceptually
it's a completely different matter of how stuff actually begins to work out when 20 different paradoxes exist at the same time
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United States3824 Posts
Sounds a little Mind Bottling 
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On March 29 2009 03:54 JeeJee wrote:
i imagine this would make for some sick single player action, although for multiplayer, i'm not so sure o_O
How do you program an AI that can even try to challenge a human in this enough to make it worthwhile?
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This looks amazing if its executed properly; I've always wanted to do a time travel game but haven't figured out how to deal with it properly. The time waves seem to smooth out a lot of the problems with it.
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On March 29 2009 22:16 Diomedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2009 03:54 JeeJee wrote:
i imagine this would make for some sick single player action, although for multiplayer, i'm not so sure o_O How do you program an AI that can even try to challenge a human in this enough to make it worthwhile?
Actually, its a lot easier than you're thinking; the ai just needs to keep track of causality.
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Sounds like fun, and I would even want to give it a try. Single player wise, I can see this working very, very well, where the player has to solve RTS "puzzles" using the time warp concept.
I'm not so sure about multiplayer, though, as human beings are inherently not very good at figuring out movement through the 4th dimension. To have a thriving multiplayer community, you need a large number of people who understand a game and play it well. I don't know how many people will be able to do that with this game.
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On March 31 2009 16:21 Abydos1 wrote:
This looks amazing if its executed properly; I've always wanted to do a time travel game but haven't figured out how to deal with it properly. The time waves seem to smooth out a lot of the problems with it.
For an AI a fourth dimension is nothing strange, it can play with it like it plays any other game, while a player have no intuitive advantage in the fourth dimension.
Think like this, in a normal game the computer is advantaged by being able to be and see everywhere at the same time, imagine now when the computer is also capable of see anytime and be anytime at the same time.
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On March 29 2009 03:32 TaP.Nuada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2009 03:25 Equaoh wrote:
datscilly knows what he's talking about.
I like the inclusion of the 8 minute window before paradoxes are resolved and events are 'set' in time, i think it'll prevent the game from becoming just end-game armies fighting over initial resource locations.
Also I don't think there are moving peons like in other rts, judging from the videos. Maybe you get resources based on 'mines' constructed over resources, which give money at a set rate. (or something)
I'll take the word of the game developers saying it's 50/50 over datscilly.
The developer didn't exactly say 50/50, it is 50/50 if you are not experienced with it but:
A paradox will oscillate between its different states until one of the states reaches the edge of the time window, leaving the players locked into one of the two states.
As such all you need to do is to make sure that the game is in the correct state when the 8 minute window passes and it will be in your favour.
Like, I kill his factories at -5.5 mins, he kills mine at -4.5, takes 1 minute for the waves of the positions to reach the other and thus producing counter waves, meaning that it takes 2 mins till we are in status quo again and at this time my even falls off the 8 minute time window and thus my event is seen as the correct one and thus him destroying my raxes never happened.
(Now it doesn't matter how fast the waves travel since you just have to time it differently)
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On March 31 2009 17:49 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2009 16:21 Abydos1 wrote:
This looks amazing if its executed properly; I've always wanted to do a time travel game but haven't figured out how to deal with it properly. The time waves seem to smooth out a lot of the problems with it. For an AI a fourth dimension is nothing strange, it can play with it like it plays any other game, while a player have no intuitive advantage in the fourth dimension. Think like this, in a normal game the computer is advantaged by being able to be and see everywhere at the same time, imagine now when the computer is also capable of see anytime and be anytime at the same time.
If anyone could talk about how AI has advanced in general I would be very interested.
Standard AIs for games I know suck at spatial recognition, that is to say they can't recognise choke points, (Clausewitz's) centre of gravity, flanking etc. Until that changes, they won't figure out time travel either.
That's why I think single player could be interesting as a series of puzzle missions, but I'm not sure how the AI would work in a free flowing game.
But is AI now advanced enough to figure out how space works? That would be really cool.
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On March 31 2009 17:57 The Storyteller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2009 17:49 Klockan3 wrote:On March 31 2009 16:21 Abydos1 wrote:
This looks amazing if its executed properly; I've always wanted to do a time travel game but haven't figured out how to deal with it properly. The time waves seem to smooth out a lot of the problems with it. For an AI a fourth dimension is nothing strange, it can play with it like it plays any other game, while a player have no intuitive advantage in the fourth dimension. Think like this, in a normal game the computer is advantaged by being able to be and see everywhere at the same time, imagine now when the computer is also capable of see anytime and be anytime at the same time. If anyone could talk about how AI has advanced in general I would be very interested. Standard AIs for games I know suck at spatial recognition, that is to say they can't recognise choke points, (Clausewitz's) centre of gravity, flanking etc. Until that changes, they won't figure out time travel either.
They won't master time travel (Too much to keep track on to deal with it in the brute force method like they do chess) but since we are total noobs on time travel the AI will certainly whoop us kinda like how newbs have a hard time to beat regular RTS AI's.
And all I said that it won't be much different to the AI compared to any other dimension, not that the AI's suddenly have begin to play like good players.
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On March 31 2009 18:09 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2009 17:57 The Storyteller wrote:On March 31 2009 17:49 Klockan3 wrote:On March 31 2009 16:21 Abydos1 wrote:
This looks amazing if its executed properly; I've always wanted to do a time travel game but haven't figured out how to deal with it properly. The time waves seem to smooth out a lot of the problems with it. For an AI a fourth dimension is nothing strange, it can play with it like it plays any other game, while a player have no intuitive advantage in the fourth dimension. Think like this, in a normal game the computer is advantaged by being able to be and see everywhere at the same time, imagine now when the computer is also capable of see anytime and be anytime at the same time. If anyone could talk about how AI has advanced in general I would be very interested. Standard AIs for games I know suck at spatial recognition, that is to say they can't recognise choke points, (Clausewitz's) centre of gravity, flanking etc. Until that changes, they won't figure out time travel either. They won't master time travel (Too much to keep track on to deal with it in the brute force method like they do chess) but since we are total noobs on time travel the AI will certainly whoop us kinda like how newbs have a hard time to beat regular RTS AI's. And all I said that it won't be much different to the AI compared to any other dimension, not that the AI's suddenly have begin to play like good players.
Darn =(
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Bill, it's an alfa, on the first sc2 videos mothership regenerated mana like shit, maybe they just have insta chrono energy regeneration for the alpha testing.
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On March 31 2009 19:41 Telemako wrote:
Bill, it's an alfa, on the first sc2 videos mothership regenerated mana like shit, maybe they just have insta chrono energy regeneration for the alpha testing.
A quote already said that they did have that.
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EPT
