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United States42370 Posts
On July 18 2011 15:52 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 13:53 KwarK wrote:
Kris, can you please stop giving people 21 day trials and then not mentoring them or getting them into the Hatchery? It's kind of embarrassing what with you being a banling and all. Huh what? I've given one guy a 21 day and told him to contact me or PM me on TL about it. I actually have work to do and a 4 day sailing trip and a three day sailing trip don't leave that much time ontop of it within the last 10 days does it? You getting a hardon of doing this kind of thing to embarass people publicly or draw negative attention to them is the only thing embarassing in this whole situation as far as I'm concerned.
I always do eve stuff in the topic. Open democracy. I had some guy come to me in SCBW saying he was ready to join now because he'd been training his rifter skills because he got a 21 day trial from some guy. My initial response to him was "you got scammed" because we get them into corp and mentor them when we give the 21 generally and he got his 6 days ago. Turned out it was you.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
KwarK is usually a good fc. Even though he rants etc he often trusts other people to do important shit eg. get initial point, bait or whatever. He often throws other people fc responsibilities when he is forced off the field etc without calling complete gtfos just because he is no longer in control.
I always warn new guys interested in joining hatchery that if they screw up, kwark / whoever WILL let them know and probably will sound harsh, but if they can absorb the useful stuff out of the rant they will learn very quickly. Those that are able to pick up the good stuff have become extremely good pilots, and quickly.
The only thing I can agree mostly with in this page full of kwark-criticism is that he sometimes harps onto a mistake for a long time, sometimes exaggerating the mistake or (I feel) sometimes blaming others for the sake of it. However, I know that once the next set of targets come again, he will get back to business. I can deal with that. Meh.
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United States42370 Posts
I'm being lectured on motivation by an FC whose corp stopped logging in for ops while mine grows stronger by the day.
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On July 18 2011 15:55 motbob wrote:Revo, I don't see how you can compare your FCing experiences to Kwark's. You were FCing a 0.0 alliance with a core of really excellent PvPers (Hull Miners). Kwark is FCing people who are still working on their T2 missile and gun skills, with almost no pilots who have distinguished themselves in the past. Both you and Kwark are excellent FCs, but Kwark's style works better in a group of pilots that need to improve, and your style is better in a group of pilots experienced in fleet combat. I mean, you only have to look at the old Liquid Inc. recruitment thread on EVE forums to see that your FCing environment and Kwark's are completely different. Show nested quote +What we are looking for-
- 10m sp+ and lots of PvP experience
- Or 20m sp+ with little to no PvP experience with desire to learn
- Killboard references and loadouts you fly upon request
- Not a idiot
- Respectful to other corp and alliance mates on vent and chat
- Willingness to learn and improve in PvP aspects On the other hand, the Hatchery's requirements: If you're leading a bunch of noobies, the correct mentality to have is "it's everyone else's fault". That kind of mentality leads to swift improvement in pilot skill.
That last part is plain wrong. Treat people like newbs and they will behave like newbs.
We had loads and loads of retarded indy guys (don't even get me started on some of the Ace "FCs" I used to mentor) and/or people from CoW/Primary in our/my fleets. They had SP, but no solid combat experience which was pretty much the exact same problem.
The trick however, and that's where you're 100% right, is a reliable core of strong players who pretty much carry the weight of the entire fleet.
This is the main issue on why I'm actually responding here. You can't claim that you're a strong FC who will be some kind of second coming of the holy glorious leader of the elephant penis, while blaming your fleet for failures that happen on a regular basis. - People won't grow while being blamed and yelled at. It's the job of a solid FC to create an environment where he does not have to say: "I did it myself because I trusted no one else to do it right.", but where he can instantly call at least 2-3 people for the job by name.
The advice im offering in my previous posts will lead to improvement in that area because it adresses the cause (leadership) not the effect (people failsaucing). When you have those issues KwarK mentioned on a regular basis you won't get them fixed unless the leadership works on themselves.
I made that whole transition from "FC random TL newbs in lowsec as a fucknewb" to "be overwhelmed by random people and having people do random shit all the time" and to "be able to coordinate fleets that are horribly bad at this game by themselves and fuck up all day without proper guidance." - That's the whole reason why I dare to offer advice here. =)
Sidenote: The recruitment requirement for Liquid Inc. was the one you posted for random pub players. For TL it was somewhere around 1-2mil SP and being from TL. However, almost every single one of them was able to outperform all the 20mil SP people from random corps in our fleets within a few weeks/months. It's a matter of leading people towards that goal.
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Always a pleasure seeing people get angry and offensive when someone tries to take away their ability to blame everyone else but themselves for certain issues.
Whatever, keep avoiding it, keep having people "fail".
To me personally it's just sad that random people from TL get blamed and actually assume you have all the right in the world to blame and yell while nothing could be further away from the truth.
I'll check back in a couple hundred pages and laugh about you ranting about the same old shit cause your ego doesn't allow yourself to fix it. Guess the time of TL trying to excel in other games is done, at least for EvE.
Edit: If someone is ever at the point where he has his fleets "fail" he can feel free to PM me, I'll tell him some tricks on how to get them oiled up again.
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United States42370 Posts
People who assume someone else is pointing the primary will continue to make the assumption until it is made crystal clear to them that it is unacceptable for them to make that kind of assumption. People who fail to learn should be bollocked until they learn. When you could have done better someone fucked up, someone could improve, someone is to blame for not already being that perfect pilot they could have been. In eve, much like in starcraft, you are faced only with a string of decisions and if you make the correct decisions you win. There's no such thing as a blameless mistake, if things fall short of optimal then someone fucked up. I aspire for perfection and I see no reason why people should fall short of that standard, myself included. By applying unrelentingly high standards I have brought this corp up to a devastatingly high killrate with inferior ships and skillpoints.
The expectation that they are fucking good and the knowledge that I will accept nothing less is a motivating factor. Blame and potential are two sides of the same coin, you can't blame an idiot for his idiocy, it's when someone could, should and will be better that I make sure they know about it.
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United States42370 Posts
On July 18 2011 16:24 r.Evo wrote:
Always a pleasure seeing people get angry and offensive when someone tries to take away their ability to blame everyone else but themselves for certain issues.
Whatever, keep avoiding it, keep having people "fail".
To me personally it's just sad that random people from TL get blamed and actually assume you have all the right in the world to blame and yell while nothing could be further away from the truth.
I'll check back in a couple hundred pages and laugh about you ranting about the same old shit cause your ego doesn't allow yourself to fix it. Guess the time of TL trying to excel in other games is done, at least for EvE.
Edit: If someone is ever at the point where he has his fleets "fail" he can feel free to PM me, I'll tell him some tricks on how to get them oiled up again.
You couldn't be more clueless about the internal workings of The Hatchery. We have surpassed your corp by far. We look back at Liquid Inc. as that time TL were random nullsec pets.
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On July 18 2011 16:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 16:24 r.Evo wrote:
Always a pleasure seeing people get angry and offensive when someone tries to take away their ability to blame everyone else but themselves for certain issues.
Whatever, keep avoiding it, keep having people "fail".
To me personally it's just sad that random people from TL get blamed and actually assume you have all the right in the world to blame and yell while nothing could be further away from the truth.
I'll check back in a couple hundred pages and laugh about you ranting about the same old shit cause your ego doesn't allow yourself to fix it. Guess the time of TL trying to excel in other games is done, at least for EvE.
Edit: If someone is ever at the point where he has his fleets "fail" he can feel free to PM me, I'll tell him some tricks on how to get them oiled up again. You couldn't be more clueless about the internal workings of The Hatchery. We have surpassed your corp by far. We look back at Liquid Inc. as that time TL were random nullsec pets.
...and hopefully for the corp that proudly kicked KwarK for failing at EvE and social interaction. Oh, wait, that's a story I don't tell because I actually know how to respect other peoples work. Whoops.
The day you pull off an actual fleet fight vs someone decent with more than 20 guys in drakes I'll take my hat off. Until then, enjoy dwelling in comparisons you're pulling out some very dark and naughty places.
enjoy~
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United States42370 Posts
You guys left the liquid alliance you made with isk borrowed off of us (after your attempt to steal motbob's isk failed) to go rent some null after you became too weak to exist on your own. If I had been in Liquid Inc. at the time I'd have left out of embarrassment. Actually, isn't that what everyone did?
You still know less about the internal workings of The Hatchery (or our fleet compositions) than I do about Liquid Inc. I was at least in Liquid. One thing I am certain of is that if I'd been in The Hatchery as it is now I'd have been a much better pilot than how you guys left me.
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Until then, enjoy dwelling in comparisons you're pulling out some very dark and naughty places.
enjoy~
Does this mean you will stop posting now? Or maybe just post and say "who the f is this guy!". Either way, it is funny reading your posts, but the humor factor is slowly running out.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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United States42370 Posts
You've not seen the worst of it. Firebolt still bullies me with some of my old lossmails.
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Lol that is a hilarious post. Its good to see back then showing such concern over 100m in implants, now when a snake clone lags out its just "meh".
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United States42370 Posts
Made approx 3b tonight. Hatchery life.
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On July 18 2011 16:56 KwarK wrote:
You guys left the liquid alliance you made with isk borrowed off of us (after your attempt to steal motbob's isk failed) to go rent some null after you became too weak to exist on your own. If I had been in Liquid Inc. at the time I'd have left out of embarrassment. Actually, isn't that what everyone did?
You still know less about the internal workings of The Hatchery (or our fleet compositions) than I do about Liquid Inc. I was at least in Liquid. One thing I am certain of is that if I'd been in The Hatchery as it is now I'd have been a much better pilot than how you guys left me.
k, I'll do one more post to clarify some lies you're trying to spread and add some facts on my own.
-Liquid Inc. died when I went off eve for about 4 months. Gordon and some other people migrated to onion, some others migrated to the hatchery. Which, originally, was created to be a training corp for us since we couldn't handle letting in total newbs anymore.
-The only thing that ever got stolen was the account Apturan Reech which I bought from motbob (with real money). I have no clue what's up with it right now, but a quick google search showed that it seems to be active. In case it's not active and/or my old password still works, I apologize and take it back.
-You and everyone else involved knew that the alliance was some last desperate measure to revive the old spirt and get people back on the same page. It failed, the future of TL in EvE was secured -> I stopped caring completely and quit eve for good. Stop pretending that I or anyone else from Liquid Inc. tried to steal money. wtf is wrong with you? Liquid Inc. tried to rent space? New concept for me, too.
-From what I know most of the old Liquid Inc. vets for some reasons I can't even think of (Want the reason? They know you.) are in Aquila and not in the Hatchery.
-The only open bill that's open for ages is my old hauler account that still has a JF on which 3-4 people from old Liquid Inc. have claims on.
-You were in Liquid Inc., everyone laughed about you being horrible at this game and only carebearing all day while infesting people with thoughts of "missions >> pvp" and similar crap. Everyone trolled you for being bad and losing failfit drakes all day, despite being told how to do it properly (everyone else managed... now why might that be?). One day, after you kept repeatedly trolling and annoying directors with random comments you got kicked from corp and went your own way till motbob introduced the whole hatchery idea and needed someone to lead it while I wasn't around.
-Up to today, you have neither had experience in 0.0 combat, fleetfights with 50+ people on both sides, fighting PL/NA/AAA/Darkside. Neither do you have experience in sov fights, nor in fleetfights with 200+ people. You never flew with any of the major FCs in this game. You have never fought titans or carrier fleets. The people who flew with Liquid Inc. and that includes me have had all of that.
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To me it seems that you really have the need to bash what people successfully built before you. I'm pretty sure you're plain and simple still mad that we identified you as being an egomaniac and shut you down before you got any real power in the old TL corp.
I find it really amusing that you successfully lead this from someone criticizing your actions and comments about fleet behaviour, failing to take well-mannered criticisim into some kind of shittalk on people without whom you'd have never even started playing EvE. Real TL spirt at work here.
Oh wait, you managed to successfully evade any criticisim on your leadership with that maneuver. Solid skills you have there.
Just stop spreading random lies on the cost of my and other peoples reputation, then I can stop feeling compelled to answer for the sake of a project I lead for a solid 1 1/2 years.
tyvm.
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United States42370 Posts
There are too many things wrong with that to address. You know nothing of The Hatchery or its activities. You're a relic, out of touch, obsolete, delusional, reliving past glories rather than dealing with the reality that half my corp is better than you ever were.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On July 18 2011 17:24 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 16:56 KwarK wrote:
You guys left the liquid alliance you made with isk borrowed off of us (after your attempt to steal motbob's isk failed) to go rent some null after you became too weak to exist on your own. If I had been in Liquid Inc. at the time I'd have left out of embarrassment. Actually, isn't that what everyone did?
You still know less about the internal workings of The Hatchery (or our fleet compositions) than I do about Liquid Inc. I was at least in Liquid. One thing I am certain of is that if I'd been in The Hatchery as it is now I'd have been a much better pilot than how you guys left me. k, I'll do one more post to clarify some lies you're trying to spread and add some facts on my own. -Liquid Inc. died when I went off eve for about 4 months. Gordon and some other people migrated to onion, some others migrated to the hatchery. Which, originally, was created to be a training corp for us since we couldn't handle letting in total newbs anymore. -The only thing that ever got stolen was the account Apturan Reech which I bought from motbob (with real money). I have no clue what's up with it right now, but a quick google search showed that it seems to be active. In case it's not active and/or my old password still works, I apologize and take it back. -You and everyone else involved knew that the alliance was some last desperate measure to revive the old spirt and get people back on the same page. It failed, the future of TL in EvE was secured -> I stopped caring completely and quit eve for good. Stop pretending that I or anyone else from Liquid Inc. tried to steal money. wtf is wrong with you? Liquid Inc. tried to rent space? New concept for me, too. -From what I know most of the old Liquid Inc. vets for some reasons I can't even think of (Want the reason? They know you.) are in Aquila and not in the Hatchery. -The only open bill that's open for ages is my old hauler account that still has a JF on which 3-4 people from old Liquid Inc. have claims on. -You were in Liquid Inc., everyone laughed about you being horrible at this game and only carebearing all day while infesting people with thoughts of "missions >> pvp" and similar crap. Everyone trolled you for being bad and losing failfit drakes all day, despite being told how to do it properly (everyone else managed... now why might that be?). One day, after you kept repeatedly trolling and annoying directors with random comments you got kicked from corp and went your own way till motbob introduced the whole hatchery idea and needed someone to lead it while I wasn't around. -Up to today, you have neither had experience in 0.0 combat, fleetfights with 50+ people on both sides, fighting PL/NA/AAA/Darkside. Neither do you have experience in sov fights, nor in fleetfights with 200+ people. You never flew with any of the major FCs in this game. You have never fought titans or carrier fleets. The people who flew with Liquid Inc. and that includes me have had all of that. . To me it seems that you really have the need to bash what people successfully built before you. I'm pretty sure you're plain and simple still mad that we identified you as being an egomaniac and shut you down before you got any real power in the old TL corp.I find it really amusing that you successfully lead this from someone criticizing your actions and comments about fleet behaviour, failing to take well-mannered criticisim into some kind of shittalk on people without whom you'd have never even started playing EvE. Real TL spirt at work here. Oh wait, you managed to successfully evade any criticisim on your leadership with that maneuver. Solid skills you have there.Just stop spreading random lies on the cost of my and other peoples reputation, then I can stop feeling compelled to answer for the sake of a project I lead for a solid 1 1/2 years. tyvm.
I don't remember any dispute about Apturan. I came back last summer and you were long gone, disappearing with little notice as you were wont to do. I wanted to contact you about borrowing the character for the summer but you were of course impossible to contact. After a week I just said "fuck it" and took Apturan. I remember quitting afterwards, leaving the char with The Hatchery, and getting a PM from Kwark about you wanting the character. I told Kwark to strip the assets and give you the character. I don't know what happened after that but based on your history I'd guess that you probably went inactive again. I could be wrong though.
The reference to Liquid being "pets" was the fact that it was part of an alliance that was in a subordinate position to another alliance. Not that Liquid itself was renting space.
Most Liquid Inc. vets are in Aquila because when they were looking for corps, Aquila was an awesome PvP corp and Hatchery was based in highsec. For you to say that Kwark drove them off somehow is laughable. I'm not even sure Kwark had taken over for JP by that point.
Congratulations, Revo. You flew with a group of excellent pilots. You did great things in 0.0. However, these are your accomplishments, not those of the corp. You accomplished great things. Gentlemen's Club accomplished great things. Liquid, by itself, accomplished nothing. When Liquid was in lowsec they couldn't do much unless they flew with Qcats or other blues. When Liquid was in 0.0 there weren't many solo ops to be had. Am i wrong?
The Hatchery is stronger than Liquid ever was.
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United States42370 Posts
The Hatchery was led by JP, lived in hisec and was terrible at the time at which I was alleged to have driven the Liquid Inc. guys into Aquila. I find it somewhat amusing that it is apparently a stain on my character that they didn't all join a corp I was in but it's nothing against revo that they hemorrhaged from the corp he led.
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On July 18 2011 17:24 r.Evo wrote:
I find it really amusing that you successfully lead this from someone criticizing your actions and comments about fleet behaviour, failing to take well-mannered criticisim into some kind of shittalk on people without whom you'd have never even started playing EvE. Real TL spirt at work here.
All of this conversation is way over my head. But I would like to respond to this, and just the general point that Kwark is doing the whole FC gig wrong.
I've been in a couple fleet ops with Kwark as FC and I've fucked up once or twice, and felt like the world was crashing down on me the way I was yelled at and made fun of. Now then, have I been podded since I was insulted non-stop for a good 10mins b/c I had no idea you were supposed to align > spam warp as you were dying? No. Do I now fully understand priorities, when/what to say in TS, and what various commands mean? I can't say with full confidence that I do everything perfectly, but I can say that I do them much better. Much better than the time I pointed a frigate over their BC, randomly said shit about pointing the frigate over comms mid fight, and didn't understand what warp to out gate meant. Why? Because I felt like I was an inch away from being kicked from the corp. We even WON that engagement, but that's not what was important. What was important was that the noob rifter who might as well have been pointing a friendly almost lost us the engagement.
I hated Kwark in the beginning, but now that I don't completely fail at everything EVE, I can appreciate what having him as FC has done for me. I understand how from an outside perspective you may think he's a horrible FC, but you're wrong. The end.
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Netherlands19130 Posts
Kwark is a huge dick but as it happens to be he's one of the few huge dicks that I actually like (and yes you dirty boys can take that any way you want).
I don't agree with what and especially how he does some things but he gets things done and I greatly enjoy playing EVE at the moment when life allows me to do so and not in small part due to him and the Corp he is running atm.
edit: Just to clear this up, he IS a huge dick but he actually HAS a pretty average one, maybe even on the small side. Np.
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EPT
