EPTEVE Corporation - Page 695
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KwarK
United States44190 Posts
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Valenius
United Kingdom1266 Posts
On July 18 2011 11:03 KwarK wrote: Abom, I'd love nothing more than to have nothing to bitch about after a fight. I don't enjoy having to explain to you why it's an issue that nobody pointed the primary, I do it because I hope that if I explain it enough times you guys will get the hang of it. If you're not willing to put the effort in to learn that's gonna be an issue because you're not good enough yet. I accept the fact that you guys drag me down because this isn't a solo game and you do improve but I can't forcefully drag you up, it takes a little from you too. For anyone who doesn't understand KwarK's.. Overplaying of things; We aren't actually all drooling idiots. The majority of fights go solidly, with people doing what they are supposed to for 99% of the time. One comes along where everyone messes up on the same thing, and it get's picked up on more than the good fights we have. Kwark, get off your high and mighty horse mate. The 'You drag me down' shit's getting old. We make mistakes, so do you. Everyone in EvE does. The tone of that post honestly makes it sound as if you'd rather none of us be here, and whilst i doubt that's the case, is it really the best way to put it? With the exception of the < 1 Month old rifter's we're all able to pick out what went wrong in fights, both from others and ourselves. Although a recap of what happened from your perspective can be useful.. currently the 10 minute rant after a fight where we did fairly well, with a what? 97% efficieny and 2 kills with a rifter loss? is just getting stupid. We all understood the second the tempest warped out that we'd made a mistake, it doesn't need 'explaining' or repeating with increased exasperation over the course of 10 minutes. | ||
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
On July 18 2011 11:03 KwarK wrote: Abom, I'd love nothing more than to have nothing to bitch about after a fight. I don't enjoy having to explain to you why it's an issue that nobody pointed the primary, I do it because I hope that if I explain it enough times you guys will get the hang of it. If you're not willing to put the effort in to learn that's gonna be an issue because you're not good enough yet. I accept the fact that you guys drag me down because this isn't a solo game and you do improve but I can't forcefully drag you up, it takes a little from you too. *golf clap* <3 kwark's rampant narcissism | ||
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KwarK
United States44190 Posts
We did well because half of them aggressed, half of them didn't, some warped off and by pure chance we ended up in the position where there was just one guy still aggressed on a station. Out of a choice of one people managed to focus their dps on him and bring him down. Do you want a gold star for your participation in that? We killed the guy because their FC sucked and the guy sucked, they could have all gotten out very easily. The only one who couldn't have gotten out was the pest who was aggressed in half shields and was pointed right up to the time I warped out and left you guys landing around him. I don't want to FC a fleet that can only kill the retards who kill themselves, if we were fighting decent people they'd have all gotten out. I want to FC a fleet that can actually play the game, that can force casualties on them rather than simply blob and pray. Tonight, you weren't it. Tonight you were shit. We had 7 battlecruisers and not one of them managed to point the primary. That's not just a few people making mistakes, that's a problem with the fleet as a whole. You want a cookie every time you blob some retard who aggressed when the rest of his fleet fucks off, find another FC. You want an FC who will demand the highest standards, get the kills in tough situations against superior fleets and lead you to win, stick with me. As always participation in my fleets is optional, the corp is bigger than me, if you don't like the way I FC then pick another or FC yourself. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On July 18 2011 11:03 KwarK wrote: Abom, I'd love nothing more than to have nothing to bitch about after a fight. I don't enjoy having to explain to you why it's an issue that nobody pointed the primary, I do it because I hope that if I explain it enough times you guys will get the hang of it. If you're not willing to put the effort in to learn that's gonna be an issue because you're not good enough yet. I accept the fact that you guys drag me down because this isn't a solo game and you do improve but I can't forcefully drag you up, it takes a little from you too. So I randomly open this thread and this post coming from KwarK... has a certain irony to it. The people who know me will know why. (; On topic, basic lesson for any FC flying a brawler ship (which should be the ship of choice unless it's about 200+ men siege-fleets) is to point the primary yourself. Otherwise fleets should have a certain hierarchy. Initial tackle (depending on fleet orders/target priority, even secondary tackle) on a certain target should always be called on coms, if no one does call a point it's the FCs job to call a point. Small-scale skirmish is all about everyone in the fleet acting on the spot and, especially when you blobbed someone, every single point that's being grabbed should be called out on coms - if you want to grab all of them. that is. The second someone hears the "Point on Sleip" he knows he can point something else. If you don't have that type of semi-open coms, you're doing it wrong and people will point random things within their range. (Same goes obviously for "losing point on xy" before you're 2s away from losing it. Correct fleet orders usually include differentiating clearly between "point" and "scram", but that's kinda back to basics.) Rule #1 of being a FC: If something goes wrong, it's your fault. Period. The only thing you can blame your fleet for is for not following clear orders and even then it's likely you either used a wrong language or asked the wrong person to do something that you should have known won't get done properly. Edit: On July 18 2011 12:09 KwarK wrote: You want a cookie every time you blob some retard who aggressed when the rest of his fleet fucks off, find another FC. You want an FC who will demand the highest standards, get the kills in tough situations against superior fleets and lead you to win, stick with me. As always participation in my fleets is optional, the corp is bigger than me, if you don't like the way I FC then pick another or FC yourself. Wait, is this for real? Like, are you now real tryhard "let's win fights outnumbered"-FC and shit? Time to get that account back up and give you some lessons, bro. <3 | ||
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KwarK
United States44190 Posts
Small-scale skirmish is all about everyone in the fleet acting on the spot and, especially when you blobbed someone, every single point that's being grabbed should be called out on coms - if you want to grab all of them. that is. The second someone hears the "Point on Sleip" he knows he can point something else. If you don't have that type of semi-open coms, you're doing it wrong and people will point random things within their range. This is exactly how we do it. Some people called points. Some didn't. Some switched without hearing. Some didn't point anything. I've told people we do it like that a dozen times, generally after exactly this type of incident. I'm tired of saying it, I'd like people to start doing it. Revo bro, if you want lessons you can apply to the Hatchery. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On July 18 2011 12:20 KwarK wrote: Revo, I normally point the primary, in this situation I was pointing the primary but was being primaried down and had to warp off. I gave command to Karah who is generally competent as I warped out and I warped back immediately. I called my warp out and my primary and the rest of the fleet were uncommitted as they were landing around me. They didn't have to switch point, they simply had to point the primary who was within point range. I do make mistakes but that fight was flawless on my part. What went wrong was that this part " the wrong person to do something that you should have known won't get done properly" applied to a good half of the fleet. This is exactly how we do it. Some people called points. Some didn't. Some switched without hearing. Some didn't point anything. I've told people we do it like that a dozen times, generally after exactly this type of incident. I'm tired of saying it, I'd like people to start doing it. Revo bro, if you want lessons you can apply to the Hatchery. Meh, I was gone for a year now pretty much and you're still 800 kills, 150bil damage dealt and 162 pods behind my all-time record. Can't be that great over there. (; Edit: Wait. You had to warp out? I thought you fly Drakes. Edit 2: If that part applied to half your fleet your doing something fundamentally wrong. Either in training, fleet discipline or recruitment standards. Since this is TL after all, I assume it's neither #1 or #3. Fleet discipline is not build by yelling or blaming (unless your name is Bobby, durr), but by building up respect and trust. Don't know if that's a hint, I'm actually not trolling your for once. If you yell a lot retards will do what they're being told, but the strong players will start making mistakes 'cause they care less for the whole thing. If you lead by building respect and trust for your FCing the retards tend to slowly improve and the strong players will never let you down under stress. Without those type of people who are 100% reliant a fleet falls apart way too easily. It's your job to find/attract/work on them getting there. | ||
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KwarK
United States44190 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On July 18 2011 12:34 KwarK wrote: You were in a few big nullsec fights. I'm sure if I went to some of those and ungrouped my launchers I could be as good as you. I warped out because I attacked 2 canes, 2 drakes, a pest, a vaga, a loki and a sleipnir under gate guns. The reason I did that is because I didn't trust anyone else to do it. I provided the warpin, held the point on the primary (who I got aggressed) and then got myself clear in 0% shields thanks to falcon (who did his job decently). Mhmm.. check what I just edited above. The "Didn't trust anyone else to do it" will make fleets fail sooner or later. It just leads to you getting frustrated ('cause it seems like everyone else is just retarded) and the people not learning strong play properly (you won't improve if you don't get forced to do the high-risk high-reward jobs). Being the guy that wins fights is the most addicting thing in EvE, try to build on that. Most of the people who excelled at their jobs during my prime (including me) were that damn good 'cause they were addicted to "being that guy". Give people the adrenaline rush of getting that point, being that bait that has to survive, being that guy that rescues things from the brink of defeat. Psychology doesn't change, just the perception of it. Strong FCing comes from being addicted to making it all work together and leaning back for a few seconds after a fight while thinking "fuck, yeah" while the other people are cheering on coms. Edit: Sorry for all the edits, it's kinda late here, lol. In a scenario like the above (so much fucking dps there) I'd go for baitsquads over a single ship. Scary dps, yo. | ||
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KwarK
United States44190 Posts
Regarding trust and respect. I don't FC because I'm a banling on tl, or because I'm a director, or because I'm older, or have more skillpoints, or anything else. I FC because I'm good, people fly with me because they know it. When a 15 man gang comes through and we have 3 online and I want to go for it I get Xs because they trust me. Because they've seen me do it a dozen times before and they know that if it's possible to do it then I'll make it happen. In the scenario above the guys were very familiar with us. They run scared at the sight of us, they have shit discipline, some aggress, some run, some panic. They were deaggressed at 0 on a station, my feel for the situation at the time was that if we brought anything scary they would dock. A drake leaving itself stupidly exposed and a falcon to rescue it was my plan and it worked perfectly. But yes, it was a lot of dps. | ||
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Pufftrees
2449 Posts
So, no one is around still, but we warp in drake and harb on them to start the party... we land on zero. I was a little nervous at first, but then the myrm long points kwark, while he calls myrm primary and I get point on Domi. The loki was pretty far off but seems to be half afk there. We kill the Myrm and Domi in about 30 seconds flat it seems, as they were going down we realize how utter shit fit they were.. but of course the other 2 ships got away because we only had 2 points. We realize later that that loki pilot was killed this week and is worth around 1.2b last time >< | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
Quoting Revo : Rule #1 of being a FC: If something goes wrong, it's your fault. Period. The only thing you can blame your fleet for is for not following clear orders and even then it's likely you either used a wrong language or asked the wrong person to do something that you should have known won't get done properly. Kwarks Rule #1 is ''if I lose a ship its your fault, if something goes wrong its your fault, and if you lose your ship its your fault'' you just get used to it after some time. | ||
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ChinaRestaurant
Austria324 Posts
On July 18 2011 12:52 KwarK wrote: Revo, you know very little about what goes on inside my fleets. I get that you're trying to help but you don't know our level or how it normally goes. I have no way of knowing if I'm a better FC than you because we played at different times and I didn't see you. But I don't need your generic words when you've not seen me in action, I could easily be far better than you. Regarding trust and respect. I don't FC because I'm a banling on tl, or because I'm a director, or because I'm older, or have more skillpoints, or anything else. I FC because I'm good, people fly with me because they know it. When a 15 man gang comes through and we have 3 online and I want to go for it I get Xs because they trust me. Because they've seen me do it a dozen times before and they know that if it's possible to do it then I'll make it happen. In the scenario above the guys were very familiar with us. They run scared at the sight of us, they have shit discipline, some aggress, some run, some panic. They were deaggressed at 0 on a station, my feel for the situation at the time was that if we brought anything scary they would dock. A drake leaving itself stupidly exposed and a falcon to rescue it was my plan and it worked perfectly. But yes, it was a lot of dps. Seriously, from what i read from your posts, you need to get some trust in the people who are directly below you in the fleet hierarchy when you fc. As revo has said you need people who you can trust following orders exactly the instant you give them. Maybe thats not as important in your situation as it is within aquila for instance, where we dont get a lot of new players we can stick into rifters and suicide tackle shit just because you can, but having a strong backbone in your fleet can never hurt. Maybe do a kind of "elite" op with the guys that show the most promise in the hatchery to build trust to them. You dont have to do this all the time, just take the newbies out of the equation and do some serious shit with the better guys. And from time to time only do noob ops if you dont already. My guess would be having people around who accurately follow orders will make you better at FCing, as will doing ops with newbs only make you realize the problems of guys that just started EvE better. If you already do this kinda stuff, thats great, just from the vibes im getting from your posts you dont seem to psyched about doing stuff with your new guys other than throw them at the enemy as suicide tackle. If nothing of this post applies to your situation just ignore it i guess ... | ||
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KwarK
United States44190 Posts
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Ueberlisk
Finland455 Posts
i find it abit amusing that people outside of corp start telling how we should do things. i think our results speak for themselves. | ||
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ChinaRestaurant
Austria324 Posts
On July 18 2011 14:25 Ueberlisk wrote: whats the purpose of running noob ops instead of just normal ops? whole point is to teach new and older pilots the way we do things. kwark's methods might give people hard time but eventually everyone learns what to do and what is expected of them. knowing what to do and doing it perfectly every time are different things tho, all of use being human and all. i find it abit amusing that people outside of corp start telling how we should do things. i think our results speak for themselves. If everybody has their own guys they have to mentor im pretty sure certain things will be left out or tought wrong/different than what is used in the actual fleets. Doing a noob-op every once in a while when theres enough guys around lets you know how far they are with learning how to correctly behave in a pvp situation and most of all in a fleet. Throwing yourself at an enemy in a suicide rifter is not what you will be doing all your eve life. Its a bit more of a safe environment to learn how to act in a fleet. OP's aimed at senior players will let them act together in a more optimal setting. Having noobs screw stuff up surely happens from time to time, and you can only go so far when you have to anticipate an error from a fleet member at some point. Except of course if you dont entrust anyone with anything and the FC does everything himself. In that case the other guys will simply lack the experience to execute more complex commands correctly if the need ever comes up. Lastly, the thing i liked most about revos FCing was that he wasnt a jerk about screwups. I screwed up. A LOT (i think, at least i still do to some extent, not that i pvp all that often). He didnt really get upset at the mistakes made but tried to explain the errors of our doings in a rather calm manner. Dont be surprised if kwarks technique doesnt warm the hearts of new players thus not adding to their loyalty and trust. And again, if you need shit done that needs to be done, you better have some people around that trust your command. edit: redundancy much lol | ||
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Viceorvirtue
United States273 Posts
How this all turned into a question of fleet hierarcy and trust I honestly don't know. If there wasn't atleast some level of trust then I severely doubt we would have anywhere near a record as good as we currently do. Also not sure where having the new guys in suicide rifters (when they dont even have the skills to fly a bc let alone fit one) was a bad way of doing things. I also think the whole 'fc not trusting anyone' is being blown a bit out of porportion as well. Karah is a good FC and took over as soon as kwark was forced off field. I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and feel free to correct me if I happen to be wrong but I think since kwark figured he could get the enemy fleet to agress a single drake, he took the person with the most expierence doing something as stupid as engaging an enemy fleet alone under station guns. This obviously meant he would be forced off field so having karah there to take over was a good thing. The issue really wasn't trust, it wasn't anything more than complete stupidity on our part. We let a fleet that we had been chasing get away again and were unable to kill anything more than the retards who wouldve been killed anyway. Sometimes things like that just happen for whatever reason, but it's important people pay attention enough to actually do what they are supposed to. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On July 18 2011 12:52 KwarK wrote: Revo, you know very little about what goes on inside my fleets. I get that you're trying to help but you don't know our level or how it normally goes. I have no way of knowing if I'm a better FC than you because we played at different times and I didn't see you. But I don't need your generic words when you've not seen me in action, I could easily be far better than you. Regarding trust and respect. I don't FC because I'm a banling on tl, or because I'm a director, or because I'm older, or have more skillpoints, or anything else. I FC because I'm good, people fly with me because they know it. When a 15 man gang comes through and we have 3 online and I want to go for it I get Xs because they trust me. Because they've seen me do it a dozen times before and they know that if it's possible to do it then I'll make it happen. In the scenario above the guys were very familiar with us. They run scared at the sight of us, they have shit discipline, some aggress, some run, some panic. They were deaggressed at 0 on a station, my feel for the situation at the time was that if we brought anything scary they would dock. A drake leaving itself stupidly exposed and a falcon to rescue it was my plan and it worked perfectly. But yes, it was a lot of dps. It's cool that you're trying to compare who's better, so I just put it simple for you: I had the issues you seem to have in my fleets and resolved them for good. Not to mention, on a much larger scale and in a way tougher environment. You can't compare lowsec piracy and wardecs with fighting people from Darkside/AAA/PL and the NC fleets. /end dickwaving, it's not about that. Getting Xs is never a measure of whether a FC is solid or not, it's simply a measure of him being the one to man up and do stuff instead of waiting for someone else to grow some balls. Back to the real issues. On July 18 2011 13:48 TurpinOS wrote: Woa what is going on, are people actually challenging the mighty Kwark...never thought that would happen. Quoting Revo : Rule #1 of being a FC: If something goes wrong, it's your fault. Period. The only thing you can blame your fleet for is for not following clear orders and even then it's likely you either used a wrong language or asked the wrong person to do something that you should have known won't get done properly. Kwarks Rule #1 is ''if I lose a ship its your fault, if something goes wrong its your fault, and if you lose your ship its your fault'' you just get used to it after some time. That is pretty much what my "trust" post was about. I don't need to be on your vent or even in a chat channel with you during an op to read your reports correctly and understand that the above is the exact problem your having. I saw people FC a 50 men fleet, the guys being all over the fucking place and fucking shit up. I took over FCing and the fleet started to behave like it should, like a well-oiled machine tearing shit up. Why? Cause the first person got no respect, no trust and did not know how to actually lead people. A fleet doing bad is never, never the fleets fault, it's always and to a 100% the FCs fault. - That includes, once again, a FC having too high expectations which will lead to dissappointment which will lead to frustration which will lead to failure. What I can't know without rolling with you is whether your expectations are too high 'cause people are simply bad or whether you lack the skillset to get the best out of people. You get that by motivation, adrenaline, fun and a mixture of a focussed and relaxed environment. ... You will not get it by blaming, yelling and calling out failures. tl;dr: Stop blaming, take responsibility for failures. - That's a truely strong FCs main strength. PS: I'm kinda sad that I went from trolling you to actually providing content. Damn, not playing EvE made me weak. =/ On July 18 2011 14:25 Ueberlisk wrote: whats the purpose of running noob ops instead of just normal ops? whole point is to teach new and older pilots the way we do things. kwark's methods might give people hard time but eventually everyone learns what to do and what is expected of them. knowing what to do and doing it perfectly every time are different things tho, all of use being human and all. i find it abit amusing that people outside of corp start telling how we should do things. i think our results speak for themselves. Meh, personally I was never a believer of "noob ops" except for very basic stuff, but rather of convos and 1:1 talk about certain things since calling out people on coms with everyone else around is usually a bad idea. The result that spoke for itself is the post my first answer 1-2 pages ago was directed to. Apparently that seems to happen on a regular basis. Besides that, there's a difference between "telling someone how to do things" and "identifying a problem from the outside and switching attention to causes instead of symptoms." | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 18 2011 13:53 KwarK wrote: Kris, can you please stop giving people 21 day trials and then not mentoring them or getting them into the Hatchery? It's kind of embarrassing what with you being a banling and all. Huh what? I've given one guy a 21 day and told him to contact me or PM me on TL about it. I actually have work to do and a 4 day sailing trip and a three day sailing trip don't leave that much time ontop of it within the last 10 days does it? You getting a hardon of doing this kind of thing to embarass people publicly or draw negative attention to them is the only thing embarassing in this whole situation as far as I'm concerned. | ||
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Both you and Kwark are excellent FCs, but Kwark's style works better in a group of pilots that need to improve, and your style is better in a group of pilots experienced in fleet combat. I mean, you only have to look at the old Liquid Inc. recruitment thread on EVE forums to see that your FCing environment and Kwark's are completely different. What we are looking for- - 10m sp+ and lots of PvP experience - Or 20m sp+ with little to no PvP experience with desire to learn - Killboard references and loadouts you fly upon request - Not a idiot - Respectful to other corp and alliance mates on vent and chat - Willingness to learn and improve in PvP aspects Liquid also provided open access to all TLers, but not many TLers joined up to PvP since it was a straight jump into 0.0, which is hard. On the other hand, the Hatchery's requirements: - Be a member of TL From this requirement the Hatchery gets 100% of its pilots. If you're leading a bunch of noobies, the correct mentality to have is "it's everyone else's fault". That kind of mentality leads to swift improvement in pilot skill. | ||
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