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On February 11 2011 06:45 motbob wrote:
How is the potential increase in quantity demanded low? What's your evidence for that? I want you to take a look at how BC quantities change in relation to price. Do people buy fewer battlecruisers when the price is higher? I'd be surprised if they didn't. With EVE historical economic data, you should be able to construct a rough demand curve (and although I know technically constructing a demand curve like that has problems, it's probably the best we can do).
Additionally: a lot of mineral supply is dictated by loot drops, not by miners. So if you're going to construct a supply curve I'd take that into account. Additionally the biggest miners are people who don't care so much about can flipping.
Making can-flipping less of an issue for miners would not change mineral prices much at all.
Yes mining isnt the only thing that supplies minerals but it is one of the things so more mining yield per hour will increse the supply of raw minerals in the market regardless if other things are supplying minerals also.
Also my evidence for the quantity demanded of minerals increseing less than price decreses is that minerals are a nessesity and fairly cheap and genrally in economics this will cause the demand curve to be inelastic.
Also the demand for battlecrusers is compleatly diffrent that the demand for raw materials as BCs are manufactured goods. Look at the demand for oil, it wont change soon because lots of people need it, so everyone who needs it is buying it so an decrese in price wont cause a massive increse in quantity demanded as not much more people now want it, its pretty much the same for raw materials.
Also the only way to cheak this would be to look at the market now, then hack the game and cause a serious increse in the supply then look at the price, then hack the game again to decrese supply.... im just thinking of a theroy here and its pretty much impossibe to prove.
EDIT: and also yes the effect on the economy is pretty small but in theroy making mining easier will in turn make it less profitable so there is no point in making in easier. Its just an intresting theroy.
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That makes no sense to me. Sure in a vaccum doubling the mining yield would cut the prices in half for a null net result, but
1) stuff would become cheaper and less annoying to lose, increasing demand
2) there are other sources of minerals that would remain unchanged
IMO of course there's a need for a complete overhaul of mining but that can be said about almost everything on EVE. I'd care first about getting people out of high sec.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
What I thought was a little funny about that kill is that all along we were afraid that he would burn out, get out of point range and escape. However afterwards he opened a private conversation with me and I got the impression that he was never trying to warp out, and instead was genuinely was trying to kill me - 'I thought I was safe as long as I was out of web range...I forgot to turn on my invulns and half of my guns.' This explains him not warping off, there were definitely 3+ second periods when I had lost point on him.
But I don't know how he actually expected to kill me when as you can see I didn't even go below 80% shields. :/
So in essence we could have saved a rifter haha.
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We had a c3 wormhole with a static 0.0 exit to Kj-qwl(northern edge of the universe) in emol today, so i probed down the exit and went on a roam with Cael and Fb, whom i had to promise to pay 60m if he loses his cane, because he was crying about his money.
I announced it as a suicide roam and we all went in with the expectation of dieing, our only scout also was a 5 hour old alt i made in a caldari baller shuttle. We set emol as our destination and its 39 jumps, however the first 10 jumps there is literally nothing at all. Suddenly i have a vargur on dscan on my shuttle alt, but none of us has probes. I jump in with the drake and start checking anomalies using the shipscanner but just cant find him, so we decide to continue...mean while my shuttle is getting attacked by a manticore and almost dies but i manage to warp off. As we land on the outgate we have a drake landing on us. I jump through and engage the manticore, but he was deaggressed by that time and jumps back to FB. At that time the drake he was aggressing jumped to me and caelum followed him, however a crow, an ares and a flycatcher landed on FBs site of the gate. So we now have caelum and me fighting a drake and FB trying to nano the shit out of the interceptors and interdictor...cause he didnt knew the shiptypes (:D) When hes 100km off the gate we finally manage to convince him that they cant scratch him and we need him on this side so he burns back. By the time he finally manages to jump back i have already killed the manticore that came back. Caelum had to warp out in low shield. I continue shooting the drake but a rook and a sacrilege come in and i get jammed resulting in the drake warping out in armor. I start nanoing towards the sun, when the crow comes back and chases me down. He only has a disruptor so i continue running away from the sacri while shooting the crow that orbits me at 23km keeping a point on me. Just when i manage to kill the crow the sacri is in point range and finally manages to kill me. Caelum and FB warp out and safe up.
Kills up to that point: 40m manticore (t2 frig, stealthbomber) 16m ares(t2 frig, interceptor) and a 18m crow(t2 frig, interceptor)=72m
Losses: roughly 50m drake.
The shuttle pilot and my pod are still alive so i continue scouting for them. They have almost no drones left, have overheat damage and caelum is in armor with shields recharging slowly(no station to dock).
A few systems later i land in a gatecamp with an Onyx, cerb, drake cane and a WORM. Its bubbled but i start burning out with the shuttle and drag their attention towards it. While they lock and shoot the shuttle i burn out of bubble range and warp out my pod and just when the shuttle dies the other pod is also not in bubble range anymore and i warp him out as well. Now i still have fb and caelum on the other side and the only way around would be 10 additional jumps, so we decide to go for it. I land at 100 on the gate in my shuttle and see a few of them jumping so i make a quick decision and call caelum and fb to jump and primary the worm. They do so. The worm dies. Fast. Horrible. When we saw the killmail we knew why. http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8851709 Horrible horrible fit.
Both of them manage to warp as soon as the worm dies and theyre out of the bubble. Caelum runs for his life and jumps system after system unscouted. Fb safes uip instead and waits for me to scout, but the guys keep chasing him and warping on him. I make a mistake and eventually lose my pod to a drag bubble and the onyx killing me. Fb is now on his own and eventually dies, but not before killing a malediction.
Result of the suicide roam: Caelum arriving in emol safely in his cane. Fb and Karah losing cane and drake. The worm and the crucifier are ~100m additional kills so were up 170m:110m.
We made bad mistakes in the first fight, i didnt switch back to the drake fast enough and tried to kill the manticore with missiles, when drones would really have been enough. And i could have survived if fb didnt burn away from the gate trying to outrun 2 interceptors.
Was much fun and a good learning experience anyway(fb now knows 3 additional shiptypes)!
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lol that sounds nice karah
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Hahaha ts was hilarious when we decided to jump into their 10man camp. 'oh fuck this, i cbf to go 20j to emol, let's go down in a fight' -> jump, pop worm, burn out and warp out rofl
I know their ship types, I just don't know every single ship in that type. Flyswatter, really? Never seen that ship before
Was good fun mucking about with the gatecamp at the end. I was originally thinking of jumping through burning off but the arazu scared me. I didn't want to just log off and I knew that was the only way out so I started fucking around, dropping cans 150km away from gate and hoping the arazu would warp to it to try and point me during which I would warp to the gate, jump and burn away. Unfortunately they started bringing in interceptors and shit and I was yearning for highsec once again, so I let a malediction burn to me, tried to pop him, knowing they would start warping to me. The rest kinda goes without saying, got the malediction just before I died, and they even warped the onyx to me to bubble my pod. :D
Karah gave me 60m for my cane, but I also had insurance, so technically I made a 21m profit on that roam 8)
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lol in that case i want 21m back? :D
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Haha yeah sure 
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On February 11 2011 09:27 Soap wrote:
That makes no sense to me. Sure in a vaccum doubling the mining yield would cut the prices in half for a null net result, but
1) stuff would become cheaper and less annoying to lose, increasing demand
2) there are other sources of minerals that would remain unchanged
IMO of course there's a need for a complete overhaul of mining but that can be said about almost everything on EVE. I'd care first about getting people out of high sec.
I agree with both points, but the thing i was saying is that incresing mining yield wouldn't increse the easyness of mining, because it would make everything cheaper thus so the relative prices would be uneffected and demand wouldn't change. In thing is is you cant prove it would happen bceause of all the other factor effecting it, as i said its just a theory.
And yes mining needs to be changed imo.
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more proof that fb is fucking terrible
also proof that "fuck it, unscouted bumrush home" is the best tactic
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how far behind would I be if I'm just about to create an account?
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On February 11 2011 04:41 KwarK wrote:
We've moved from big organised roams into low/null with reimbursement into solo and smallgangs doing long term occupation in wide areas of lowsec. The problem with the big ops is that nobody really learned to do anything but blob in them, we had a fine theory but it relied a lot on execution and when it mattered we failed horribly. We had some really successful fights where the average skill was higher or the composition just worked but generally we just won by having better stuff. When we did a big roam the locals just passed it out on the intel channels (they're all blue to each other) and they docked up as we went through then just returned to business after we were gone.
Going around solo you get a lot more fights where you thought there were none and with gangs of 2-3 you can get into some really cool spots. There is much more scrutiny on the individual pilot (we usually have at least one newish guy with us) and he has a more important role. We've been able to identify people who would previously get lost in the crowd and help each other learn so that hopefully when we do actually form up we can apply that stuff.
On a related note you can't really use scimitars in gangs that small so there has been a lot of emphasis on good flying to keep options open and limit incoming dps. That'll be really useful for when we do have them in a bigger gang.
If you hang around in the area for awhile this also has the potential to bring a fight to you because well, they are all blue to each other and would like to get along with their business.
Intel channel is just there so unsuspecting idiots don't get ganked, not to dock up and hide till the danger has passed. Unless of course you're roaming in NC space.
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Kwark said I don't have enough experience to bring my stilettos to ops so I decided to get some.
Fitted a AB/Nos Rifter and roamed a line through amamake. Things were pretty slow but I managed to find another rifter at belt 3-1. He also was AB fit and as we sped toward each other I pre heated my guns. I had RF Emp loaded which was probably what got me killed; I was pretty psyched when his shields dropped almost instantly but was less so as my armor began to melt just as fast.
Realizing I had no chance of winning I heated my web and AB and aligned out. My heated web gave me some range and I had nearly 10 seconds out of his scram range but I could not warp. I had stupidly aligned to the Belt i was fighting in ><; momentarily confused I immediately tried to align to the next closest celestial which happened to be right behind me and my new rifter buddy.
My ship swung around into scram range and quickly exploded. Gf's in local as my pod warped out.
Was pretty frustrating but I feel like I did everything correctly besides my ammo choice and that bad align. If I had aligned properly I know I would still have my rifter.
So yay for learning; I would rather lose a 6 mil rifter like that than a 30mil stiletto.
Killmail if anyone is interested -- http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8854374
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On February 11 2011 17:23 TheAdmiral714 wrote:
how far behind would I be if I'm just about to create an account?
New player are joining every day, so tbh your question isn't really the right one to ask, as it isnt like a single player game, EVE is designed to be nice to newer players (belive it for not) however becasue the nature of EVE it does have a steep learning curve, however The Hatchery will support you the best we can.
You will be usefull in our fleets as soon as you can fly a rifter (which takes a day to train for), and it would probably takes about 3 months before you could fly a decent battlecruser fit with T2 (the main thing we use). If you want to fly and super-awsome T2 hull ships they take a lot longer to fly but they are very expensive and specilised.
EDIT: @Azerbaijan you seam to have about 2.2M of ammo in your ship - you prolly should carry less when pvping imo, because in a rifter your not going to use 1000 shots of ammo, are you? (i may be misinformed here but it just semas like 1/3 of your ship being ammo isnt right.)
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^fair point; I suppose I had at least hoped to have used more of it before I died but the ammo being 1/3 of the loss does seem absurdly high. Next time ill drop some at a station before I start looking for fights; can't hurt to have extra ammo sitting around the places I roam frequently.
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On February 11 2011 17:32 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 04:41 KwarK wrote:
We've moved from big organised roams into low/null with reimbursement into solo and smallgangs doing long term occupation in wide areas of lowsec. The problem with the big ops is that nobody really learned to do anything but blob in them, we had a fine theory but it relied a lot on execution and when it mattered we failed horribly. We had some really successful fights where the average skill was higher or the composition just worked but generally we just won by having better stuff. When we did a big roam the locals just passed it out on the intel channels (they're all blue to each other) and they docked up as we went through then just returned to business after we were gone.
Going around solo you get a lot more fights where you thought there were none and with gangs of 2-3 you can get into some really cool spots. There is much more scrutiny on the individual pilot (we usually have at least one newish guy with us) and he has a more important role. We've been able to identify people who would previously get lost in the crowd and help each other learn so that hopefully when we do actually form up we can apply that stuff.
On a related note you can't really use scimitars in gangs that small so there has been a lot of emphasis on good flying to keep options open and limit incoming dps. That'll be really useful for when we do have them in a bigger gang. If you hang around in the area for awhile this also has the potential to bring a fight to you because well, they are all blue to each other and would like to get along with their business. Intel channel is just there so unsuspecting idiots don't get ganked, not to dock up and hide till the danger has passed. Unless of course you're roaming in NC space.
exactly, thought the whole point of roaming is showing up in peoples space/intel channel so they could get riled up, get a response fleet up, and you get a nice fight. though what kwark said is also true, experience flying in really small gangs without logi will help immensely with general piloting skill. esp for new players who never did anything else but blob.
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United States42716 Posts
On February 11 2011 19:30 WiljushkA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 17:32 Jayme wrote:On February 11 2011 04:41 KwarK wrote:
We've moved from big organised roams into low/null with reimbursement into solo and smallgangs doing long term occupation in wide areas of lowsec. The problem with the big ops is that nobody really learned to do anything but blob in them, we had a fine theory but it relied a lot on execution and when it mattered we failed horribly. We had some really successful fights where the average skill was higher or the composition just worked but generally we just won by having better stuff. When we did a big roam the locals just passed it out on the intel channels (they're all blue to each other) and they docked up as we went through then just returned to business after we were gone.
Going around solo you get a lot more fights where you thought there were none and with gangs of 2-3 you can get into some really cool spots. There is much more scrutiny on the individual pilot (we usually have at least one newish guy with us) and he has a more important role. We've been able to identify people who would previously get lost in the crowd and help each other learn so that hopefully when we do actually form up we can apply that stuff.
On a related note you can't really use scimitars in gangs that small so there has been a lot of emphasis on good flying to keep options open and limit incoming dps. That'll be really useful for when we do have them in a bigger gang. If you hang around in the area for awhile this also has the potential to bring a fight to you because well, they are all blue to each other and would like to get along with their business. Intel channel is just there so unsuspecting idiots don't get ganked, not to dock up and hide till the danger has passed. Unless of course you're roaming in NC space. exactly, thought the whole point of roaming is showing up in peoples space/intel channel so they could get riled up, get a response fleet up, and you get a nice fight. though what kwark said is also true, experience flying in really small gangs without logi will help immensely with general piloting skill.
Which is why we're having such fun now we're doing prolonged stays in their space. Problem with roaming is they can't get shit together in time to stop you before you've moved on and if you sit in their space and wait for them then it's not really a roam anymore and there are no guarantees anything will happen.
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in the other news, someone reuploaded this gem again.
shadoo soundboard:
http://dump.gaww.net/2010/shadoo.swf
click it before it goes down
may i recommend such timeless classics as who bubbled, seriously falcun, selfdestruct, and failures 2.
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On February 11 2011 19:30 WiljushkA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 17:32 Jayme wrote:On February 11 2011 04:41 KwarK wrote:
We've moved from big organised roams into low/null with reimbursement into solo and smallgangs doing long term occupation in wide areas of lowsec. The problem with the big ops is that nobody really learned to do anything but blob in them, we had a fine theory but it relied a lot on execution and when it mattered we failed horribly. We had some really successful fights where the average skill was higher or the composition just worked but generally we just won by having better stuff. When we did a big roam the locals just passed it out on the intel channels (they're all blue to each other) and they docked up as we went through then just returned to business after we were gone.
Going around solo you get a lot more fights where you thought there were none and with gangs of 2-3 you can get into some really cool spots. There is much more scrutiny on the individual pilot (we usually have at least one newish guy with us) and he has a more important role. We've been able to identify people who would previously get lost in the crowd and help each other learn so that hopefully when we do actually form up we can apply that stuff.
On a related note you can't really use scimitars in gangs that small so there has been a lot of emphasis on good flying to keep options open and limit incoming dps. That'll be really useful for when we do have them in a bigger gang. If you hang around in the area for awhile this also has the potential to bring a fight to you because well, they are all blue to each other and would like to get along with their business. Intel channel is just there so unsuspecting idiots don't get ganked, not to dock up and hide till the danger has passed. Unless of course you're roaming in NC space. exactly, thought the whole point of roaming is showing up in peoples space/intel channel so they could get riled up, get a response fleet up, and you get a nice fight. though what kwark said is also true, experience flying in really small gangs without logi will help immensely with general piloting skill. esp for new players who never did anything else but blob.
Oh I never disagreed with Kwark about your second point. It's absolutely true that the best place to learn pure piloting skill is in gangs of 2-3 or so without a logi safeguard. Your margin of error is small with all that so you learn or die. Best way to gain skill.
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On February 11 2011 19:46 WiljushkA wrote:in the other news, someone reuploaded this gem again. shadoo soundboard: http://dump.gaww.net/2010/shadoo.swfclick it before it goes down may i recommend such timeless classics as who bubbled, seriously falcun, selfdestruct, and failures 2.
Don't forget "Jump on contact"
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EPT
