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That thread is incredible. Kil2 literally said "oh yeah, changing ammo is important...oh well, maybe we'll deal with it later." I can't imagine trying that at a real job.
I'm awful at this game, and yet I change missiles before virtually every engagement and during almost all of them that last more than 60 seconds. The math on the DPS nerf that people throw around is understated, because you've now got the outright nerf from less missiles plus the nerf of using the wrong type of missiles in most situations.
Plus, how are you supposed to use this thing in a small gang. You're fighting cruisers...do you just sit and not shoot in case tackle shows up? Really tense gameplay...I know I don't find anything more exciting than sitting on field and doing nothing.
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Rise isn't even having anything more to do with the discussion that I've seen. Unless that ranger1 guy is his alt, hes the only person who seems to be supporting the changes in a reasonable and hopeful manner who doesn't seem to be, well, utterly retarded. That's likely just me being a bit tinfoil about things and desperately hoping rise actually cares and is willing to change things. Csm posted for a while after page 50something but they both essentially said the change was great and only doubled down when presented with other options that I saw.
Tldr continues to be: Fuck you, train lasers.
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The biggest issue seems to be that everyone at CCP and on the CSM seems to accept this argument as a given:
RLML's are virtually always the best choice for cruiser missiles, therefore they must be too strong.
It's like when they hear that phrase it's magic and proof positive that a change is needed. Apparently comparing them to other weapon systems just doesn't occur to anyone? Hard to understand, but obviously I haven't played long enough to be desensitized to this kind of high level analysis.
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The biggest thing here is not about whether RLMLs should be nerfed. If they wanted to nerf RLML's, they could simply increase the cycle time or similar and call it a nerf and say deal with it. People could argue for or against it with various concepts blah blah blah - that isn't what is happening here at all.
The problem is that they've decided to take an existing weapon system and introduce a completely new, totally untested mechanic in the game to replace that existing weapon system. Now that in itself is not necessarily a problem, but it's crystal clear they haven't thought the change through. One of the most fundamental aspects of missile systems in the game is they do a single damage type - and as a result they need to switch ammo more often than other systems in order to optimize their damage for their current target. This entire aspect of missile systems has been completely overlooked, thus the proposed change will dump RLMLs into the gutter as an unusable weapon system for all but the most braindead of blobbing F1ers.
Aside from damage type problem, there are other serious design issues with the proposal. The current weapon system is, when compared with all other weapon systems in the game, an anti-frigate or application-based system. The strength of the system is in its ability to kill frigates with the drawback being presumably decreased DPS. Kil2 is proposing to take this anti-frigate system and make it much worse at killing frigates in a real engagement. The payoff for this drawback is supposed to be the RLMLs new amazing super mega front-loaded DPS. Where in the matrix of missile weapon problems does it make sense to do this? Why take an anti-frigate system and make it into some kind of weird-ass stealth bomber sans stealth? Ships that were useful before in any engagement will see virtually no use now aside from these weird cutesy tactical maneuvers that armchair generals fantasize about while they're spamming forums and IRC channels and not logging into EVE.
This weird method of problem-solving would better be applied to things no one uses like HMLs. When solving problems, you generally analyze the situation, discover the problem area, and engineer and apply a fix to it. What happened here was they got to the problem discovery part and instead of engineering a fix decided to make a random deus ex design sweep. The whole thing reeks of poor design integrity, lack of oversight, scarcity of consultation (who is Kil2 gonna consult about such changes? Fozzie? ROFL) etc. etc. It leaves interested parties unsatisfied because of the senselessness of the change and lack of direction.
There are real problems that need to be fixed (HMLs and other missile systems are a fucking joke because of the scaling of the ammunition variables). People that know what they're doing and know what they're flying see all this big mess as a comical tragedy. It's like seeing congress legislate that Google starts manufacturing dump trucks instead of distributing Google fiber because Comcast just can't keep up.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
"hey guys i'm good at selling cars, you should let me manage the Prius factory"
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Kil2:
I'm not sure where the idea comes from that this plan came out of thin air in a few days has come from. Yes, it's late in the release cycle, but we spent weeks talking about how to deal with this problem and went through multiple review processes before anything showed up here, just like we do with all changes.
I also assure you that I am not ignoring negative feedback. There are absolutely a lot of people giving that in this thread. In the past when I've gotten negative feedback which is backed with well articulated arguments I don't hesitate to make changes (see industrial rebalance, electronic attack frig rebalance, battleship rebalance), but in this thread the majority of complaint is very disorganized and unhelpful, that's why I'm instead going with the positive feedback coming from the CSM, from our testing and from some posters here.
Chessur and Michael, try articulating your argument better /s
Malcanis:
... Of course I am operating under the unfair advantage of (1) Seeing what the alternative changes were and (2) Having the mathematical skills to appreciate that, under the conditions that Rise & co wish to promote, this tradeoff is more of a buff than a nerf. ...
I wonder how bad the alternative changes were if this is what we got and it was considered better.
I liked the part when Kil2 says RLM's are "almost always the right choice" and thus need to be nerfed, then goes on to say that according to his "metrics" HML's still see heavy usage.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
HML's still see heavy usage by those who don't know better.
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He used his metric when Michael and/or Chessur said that HML's were shit as proof positive that HML's are not, in fact, shit.
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And that is why metrics should not be used to balance PVP - because most of the signal is noise.
/edit - That wasn't a real argument anyway. There is no way Kil2 thinks HMLs are just dandy. He was just grasping at straws trying to contradict point B when point A is the uncomfortable topic of discussion.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eL210is.png)
you pretty much have to ECM lockdown though as you can't rep this for shit. Two of these I think will kill most pods though. Thoughts?
(maybe drop warp stabs and actually have some tank? cap booster may not be formally required either if you have lockdown)
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That smartbombing maller corrupted your soul!
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On November 14 2013 23:39 0m3ga wrote:
That smartbombing maller corrupted your soul!
Intervention for bbq
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I'll start training lasers as soon as Thermo V finishes, but for the moment I'll have to work with rails.
Some time spent on EFT gave me a few fits that could work but I'd like some feedback first.
+ Show Spoiler +2 LSE Thorax has good DPS but only 1.5 minutes of cap, I'd be OK with that on a frig but I'm not sure about it on a cruiser. + Show Spoiler +LASB Thorax fixes the cap problem but has a drop in DPS. + Show Spoiler +800mm plate gives me a web to hold tackle with, but is slower with low DPS. + Show Spoiler +An AAR fixes the speed problem but still has low DPS. + Show Spoiler +I can also drop the web for a tracking computer allowing me to up the DPS, as well as the ability to instantly swap between long range kiting and closer range anti frig. I honestly don't think I've ever seen one of them on a PvP ship before so perhaps a web is better? + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +
Any tweaks I should make, or am I off target completely? What fit best mimics the nano omen?
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Well, railguns are a long range weapon system, so their tracking is crappy, even with TE's and rigs. I would suggest using a laser ship with heavy pulses such as the nomen or the omen.
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Hyrule19209 Posts
You are way off the mark, especially with rigs
medium trimark, +15% armor, -10% speed
polycarb, +5.5% speed, -10% armor
acrs where you don't need them
get some genolutions
go for speed or buffer, not both
you also appear to be using an old EFT
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oh shit, I'll look at that thanks!
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Here are my hopefully less fucked up fits.
+ Show Spoiler +
But after looking at the tracking thanks to Om3ga, I'm starting to think rails won't work for solo at all.
Should I just stay out of cruisers until I have T2 pulses trained?
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Hyrule19209 Posts
you can drop the acr, meta 4 an lse, and add another mcdfe for loads more tank
ca-3 and ca-4 are like 500m
triple polycarbs is stacking penalized beyond worth
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Drop the second lse, fit a web, drop the extender rig for a t2 metastasis and make sure you carry standard drop.
On the maar/web fit you can fit a single polycarb and go acr+locus or acr+metastasis, and don't forget standard drop.
I find it hard to justify a solo rail thorax without a defensive web as its probably the only way you can deal with frigates.
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New genols, whats this, where are they from?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/79Oujcw.jpg)
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