On July 18 2013 12:13 TomatoShark wrote: why are caracals so good now? sorry been out of eve for so long :|. Is it just asb fit and a baby drake essentially?
Caracals are so good because CCP nerfed HML's. They hit them so hard, that now RLM's will have roughly the same DPS- however they will be able to apply it to cruisers and down. HML's simply cannot live in this cruise centered PvP that eve now finds itself in. All HML boats are useless now, even the tengu. With the upcoming Tech 3 nerf, its going to be hit even harder.
Best missile boats nowadays are the
Caracal Scythe Fleet Osprey Navy
Nano boats need 4 things to really be effective. Listed in order of importance:
1. Speed. In the current meta 2400m/s is the slowest you can go while still being safe. Your ship needs to be at least this fast.
2. Projection. You need to be able to project damage past 35K++
3. DPS. Ideally you want to have as much as possible
4. Tank. I nthe nano world, having a tank means that you simply have enough EHP to give you enough time to burn out of damage range / warp out.
The caracal can do all of these things excellently, and it can do it for the price of 40mil. The caracal is also a Tech one cruiser- so people think LOL what a joke ship. When in reality it is one of the best / scariest nano ships in the game currently.
The TE nerf hit the Minmatar ships pretty hard, I think someone posted awhile ago that AC's lost like 1/3rd of their falloff. As far as the Hurricane Fleet Issue and Stabber Fleet Issue are concerned, the cost doesn't justify the utility when, thanks to tiericide, most T1 cruiser hulls are pretty viable.
Thorax's got a buff due to tiericide and can go like 3.2km/s with a single nano, so when the medium railgun buff hits those might will probably become a more viable shield nano fit.
Well yeah, you are right. Anyone who believes TEST by itself (or even with N3) is not an underdog is either crazy or know nothing about war.
This morning gonna be interesting. Massive fleet coming up from both sides to fight.
Test with N3 and PL aren't underdogs... If they start acting like a coalition if they want to survive. Test as an alliance + N3 as a coalition (with no coalition spirit to speak of) and PL as a wild card are underdogs though. The problem isn't about ISK alone. The problem is about being united. Test flies with their own fleets, same with N3, same with PL (you can join others' fleets but they may be with other doctrines, not reimbursed, etc). This CAN'T work. If PL was leading the whole capfleet, Z9PP would have been a clean extraction (they did extract their own carriers smoothly). If N3 & PL were really implicated at a coalition level, they would be able to field two to three time as many ships, and use supers/titans in direct engagements. If N3+Test was a coalition, N3 alliances would lend money to Test like GSF does with poorer CFC alliances in time of need. Etc.
It's a coalition against a pile of alliances, and as such, it's just a question of time. For the defenders of fountain, it's "reform or die" time.
Everything you say is true and essential for the survival of a nullsec entity. I think you're over-romanticizing the concept of organization, though.
GSF is effective in nullsec because they are highly organized. They don't have some outstanding military tradition. They don't have skillful pilots. They don't necessarily vastly outnumber their opponents. What they do have is a visible structure that even a simpleton can follow in addition to "invisible" structures that make everything in the background run properly. They impose this structure on everyone they interact with as well. That way when they call for help, it's more like picking bodies out of a reserve force than having RandomThirdParty show up and do Odin knows what.
These are the essential problems that "coalitions" (more like city-states amirite) face. If they do not share an organizational system, they can't interact with each other militarily and economically without friction. GSF's system of Military Dictatorship For Dummies works really well because it's a unidirectional lowest common denominator basis for interaction. This guarantees that they're able to use their own population to its fullest and also able to poach from the population of other entities without significant learning curve and without political hangups.
Imagine a TEST-led fleet that gets 50 bodies from PL. Ok so this TEST fleet has 50 extra bodies, almost certainly underutilized. Now imagine that a PL-led fleet gets 100 bodies from TEST. It might cause more problems than it would solve. From what I've seen of PL fleets, there is a style of command specific to them with a learning curve beyond the capabilities of an average TEST member to pick up on at a moment's notice. This is an organizational problem reflecting a possible under-utilization of manpower.
Coalitions don't need a shared political basis to fix problems like this. They just need an organized system of interaction.
You are right about everything you say, but you also minimize another importance of a strong organization, structure and coalition spirit: the reason to fight and the ease to use propaganda. Since everyone in the CFC roughly think the same way, you can tailor your propaganda. The whole "they aren't having fun" works because of the griefer culture of the CFC. Test have been trying the "fighting to the last man" gimmick, but it's just not working for them. And they get absolutely no help in propaganda from N3 and PL, since those alliance/coalitions have no need for it, the quantity and closeness of the fights is enough to get their pvp members moving. As you can see, Test dropped from the 4+ full fleets + 1 full tribe fleet they had to defend delve to 1 full fleet or less on most battles. Test is a mass alliance, similarly to how the CFC work, you need to motivate people if you want them to fight. But Test has no charismatic leader and no structured propaganda. Anarchy isn't a way to govern an alliance full of bears and newbies. It would work in an alliance where everyone is competent and want to fight (PL could have no leader and still have sizeable and competent numbers in fleets).
AUtz is probably the test friends' relative best time zone, CFC never really gained the advantage in that TZ in tribute (opposing coalition collapsed before then). Last night was a bit early for actual AUTZ though. Right around downtime is when N3 has their best chance, I think.
+1. Test already lost this war. N3 is fighting it, now, and AuTz is their strength. And a major weakness for the CFC. The 600 men fleet they fielded yesterday is an exception with everyone able to calling sick/putting their alarm on, it's not a display of their real AuTz numbers, which are really low. People will get burned really quickly if the CFC is forced to keep alarm clocking for each timer.
i'm not talking about winning fights, i am talking about winning a war. and although the two are connected they are very very different. if TEST are timing to AUtz for nulli, they are getting fucked by nulli far worse than by the CFC.
Agreed. But looking at their numbers in fleet compared to their real potential (and the morale hit of their financial problems), Test already lost this war. It's up to N3 to fight it, and with that in mind, timing for AuTz is logical.
The caracal can do all of these things excellently, and it can do it for the price of 40mil. The caracal is also a Tech one cruiser- so people think LOL what a joke ship. When in reality it is one of the best / scariest nano ships in the game currently.
not to Sexy Pirates Club. When I saw they had myrm / caracal / executioner, they brought in a rapier and a curse, and smacked me for running away. They also apparently will have sexual relations with my mother and I have an extra chromosome (downs).
On July 18 2013 15:16 Nyvis wrote: Test is a mass alliance, similarly to how the CFC work, you need to motivate people if you want them to fight. But Test has no charismatic leader and no structured propaganda.
There is nothing they can do about that in this situation. They need to look elsewhere for their solutions.
You're right that TEST is a lowest common denominator alliance. They exert military pressure by appealing to and retaining as many warm bodies as possible and utilizing simple but simplistic systems to achieve that retention.
However, TEST simply cannot compete with GSF on the propaganda front. GSF was founded by and is populated by a very specific culture that comes out of the box with loyalty rituals, appeals to confirmation bias etc. etc. - these people have already demonstrated their predisposition to receive propaganda before they even heard of EVE.
What is TEST populated by? People that love and hate and have-no-strong-feelings-about everything. Reddit as a whole is the Great Nothing of the internet in terms of common ground and common interests for its individuals. There might as well be a community site called Internet.net where only people who use the internet go there to form their internet-centric cliques. Reddit is quite literally a degree or two away from that level of silliness when it comes to the kind of organization you want to form in EVE.
TEST has barreled through its existence owing its success largely to the huge traffic that Reddit gets, but there are very few community "identifiers" present in its population. Any propaganda that TEST has will be personal ("we fought at X system and beat Y evils back! Never Forget X 20XX!"), situational, event- or time-based - in a word, impermanent.
Morale is important - getting those bodies to sit in fleet is important. Propaganda is important too, if for nothing else than getting out an otherwise complex message in an easily digested format. But TEST, much less their "coalition", is not going to compete on the basis of their message or their rightness or their cassus belli. Their only chance is to compete with organization.
What does a group of people (all with totally different interests and a dizzying array of sparse common-ground networks) tied together by selection bias towards the internet respond to? Humor? Anger? Arrogance? Silliness? "Nationalism"? Bloodlust?
Results.
If their leadership could simply take the time to sit down with the correct individuals and orchestrate some cross-coalition action, that would alleviate many of their (short-term) morale concerns. The great thing about results is that they can be spun any way you like, and people will respond to them strongly.
Longterm, now that TEST has parted with CFC, they really just don't have a reason to exist anymore beyond the personal-hangups inertia of their current membership. But hey, maybe their semi-universal love of cats and terrible memes will keep them going strong.
can you give me advise on how to fc a nano caracel gang? I'm surprisingly a pretty good fc by calmil fw standards apparently.
It may be that I have welcomed ECM into my heart and converted to the church of falcon. obliterated a heavy BC-logi gang with a squad of well placed falcons and kitchen sink BC's with ECM drones today.
I don't understand how TEST/Dreddit even exists anymore... the more time I spend on reddit the less inclined I am to want to spend more time with redditors, whether it's on reddit or EVE or through any other medium.
On July 18 2013 16:07 Sermokala wrote: can you give me advise on how to fc a nano caracel gang? I'm surprisingly a pretty good fc by calmil fw standards apparently.
It may be that I have welcomed ECM into my heart and converted to the church of falcon. obliterated a heavy BC-logi gang with a squad of well placed falcons and kitchen sink BC's with ECM drones today.
Also bait blackbird best blackbird.
honestly I'd say you have to solo in one (loki optional but suggested - you will get a wider range of possible fights that way). With experience you will get an idea about prioritizing threats, judging what you can and cannot kill given time pressure, evaluating presence of fight-changing things (recon / t3 boosts, you can often tell whether there are loki boosts based on speed), how to position your ship, on-grid maneuvering*, when to all-in or bail, and good dscan usage. Coincidentally, this is the exact same skillset important for an FC.
Rahadalon during the EU TZ is pretty good for this. The late US TZ has really fell off in activity for some reason.
*see this vid from 13:30 on - continues to part 5. Knowing what range to start fights at -- too far and they won't commit, too close you all get tackled and die in a fire -- and getting yourself there using warps are both pretty useful things to understand
the fights from part 4 - 11:35 are also very good but its more general textbook kiting stuff, you should definitely watch all 5 parts if you're a fan of quality pvp.
On July 18 2013 16:07 Sermokala wrote: can you give me advise on how to fc a nano caracel gang? I'm surprisingly a pretty good fc by calmil fw standards apparently.
It may be that I have welcomed ECM into my heart and converted to the church of falcon. obliterated a heavy BC-logi gang with a squad of well placed falcons and kitchen sink BC's with ECM drones today.
Also bait blackbird best blackbird.
Just come join us in Rahadalon in a caracal and you will learn.
On July 18 2013 16:15 Omigawa wrote: I don't understand how TEST/Dreddit even exists anymore... the more time I spend on reddit the less inclined I am to want to spend more time with redditors, whether it's on reddit or EVE or through any other medium.
When I saw 178 million SP, I thought there was no way it could be missing a huge amount of shit, it's got so much SP that it simply can't be that bad.
But then I took a look at it. What the fuck was this guy thinking when he was training shit? So much useful shit missing, and so much useless shit V'd.
Today goblin denies the existence of opportunity cost "are you a manufacturer? did you know that every time you spend your time manufacturing and not trading you don't get isk you could have made doing trading? that potential isk is just sitting there, why don't you take it? are you dumb or something? and while you're on the way home to your manufacturing system why not do some belt ratting, those bounties are just sitting there."
I replied this to his blog, let's see if he accepts it
Wow, that's a great point about buy orders and sell orders. Like when you buy off of a sell order what you've really done is paid some other dude to .01 buy orders for you so you have the convenience of having your thing instantly. Like he's the trader .01ing and you're the guy who wants the thing. But you can cut out the middle man and keep his cut by becoming a trader yourself!
Actually, now I think about it, there are a bunch of useless middle men. The hauler takes his cut for doing his useless work, the manufacturer builds at a profit, cut him out and keep his cut too. Even the miners take minerals they get for free and sell them a 100% pure profit. They're all in it together with the trader to create an item for sale in the hub while robbing you of potential profit. Cut out the middle man, doing anything else is dumb.
On July 18 2013 05:58 Johnny Business wrote: Today I fced a brave newbies gang vs Turn left vs CVA
If you have played with me in Rahadalon you know that I am perma banned from their mumble for using a spy to squadwarp their fleets to death so this was a bit problematic.
First I had some random russian proxy that stopped working half way through and took chrome and most other non eve internet things with it. Then I had to relay orders to gray arachnids on ts. Then he crashed and our entire gang died.
On July 18 2013 15:16 Nyvis wrote: Test is a mass alliance, similarly to how the CFC work, you need to motivate people if you want them to fight. But Test has no charismatic leader and no structured propaganda.
There is nothing they can do about that in this situation. They need to look elsewhere for their solutions.
You're right that TEST is a lowest common denominator alliance. They exert military pressure by appealing to and retaining as many warm bodies as possible and utilizing simple but simplistic systems to achieve that retention.
However, TEST simply cannot compete with GSF on the propaganda front. GSF was founded by and is populated by a very specific culture that comes out of the box with loyalty rituals, appeals to confirmation bias etc. etc. - these people have already demonstrated their predisposition to receive propaganda before they even heard of EVE.
What is TEST populated by? People that love and hate and have-no-strong-feelings-about everything. Reddit as a whole is the Great Nothing of the internet in terms of common ground and common interests for its individuals. There might as well be a community site called Internet.net where only people who use the internet go there to form their internet-centric cliques. Reddit is quite literally a degree or two away from that level of silliness when it comes to the kind of organization you want to form in EVE.
TEST has barreled through its existence owing its success largely to the huge traffic that Reddit gets, but there are very few community "identifiers" present in its population. Any propaganda that TEST has will be personal ("we fought at X system and beat Y evils back! Never Forget X 20XX!"), situational, event- or time-based - in a word, impermanent.
Morale is important - getting those bodies to sit in fleet is important. Propaganda is important too, if for nothing else than getting out an otherwise complex message in an easily digested format. But TEST, much less their "coalition", is not going to compete on the basis of their message or their rightness or their cassus belli. Their only chance is to compete with organization.
What does a group of people (all with totally different interests and a dizzying array of sparse common-ground networks) tied together by selection bias towards the internet respond to? Humor? Anger? Arrogance? Silliness? "Nationalism"? Bloodlust?
Results.
If their leadership could simply take the time to sit down with the correct individuals and orchestrate some cross-coalition action, that would alleviate many of their (short-term) morale concerns. The great thing about results is that they can be spun any way you like, and people will respond to them strongly.
Longterm, now that TEST has parted with CFC, they really just don't have a reason to exist anymore beyond the personal-hangups inertia of their current membership. But hey, maybe their semi-universal love of cats and terrible memes will keep them going strong.
The problem with results is that you need people to make them. A way to motivate people requiring to already have people doesn't sound like the ideal solution. Propaganda and other forms of moral boost can be created out of thin air.
EPT
. no more navy canes or thorax or sfi?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FFcaSvn.jpg)
