EVE Corporation - Page 1432

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Warri

Germany3208 Posts

January 26 2013 20:56 GMT

#28621

Also the term "power creep" doesnt apply here, because the exact opposite is happening. It not new content that is being added which is stronger than old content, but instead they buff old content to be on par with newer content.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep

KwarK

United States44245 Posts

January 26 2013 20:59 GMT

#28622

When the new content introduced (hacs) is intended to be stronger than the old content (t1 cruisers) and then they introduce something even newer (tier 3s) and make it broken as fuck and then buff the original old content to be proportionate to the newest content then the middle shit that hasn't been seen to yet is still a victim of the power creep. Making new shit not completely broken would be stopping power creep, when they make new shit broken and then move some stuff up to be in line with that then power creep has still taken place.

Body_Shield

Canada3373 Posts

January 26 2013 21:30 GMT

#28623

It sounds like they're going to make t2 stuff only a bit better than t1. But the price will be the same because they won't change that shit.

There are a few things that you just can't change to be slight better than t2, like the Curse, because CCP doesn't know what ranged neuts can actually do. But the price of the t2 ships after they get through them will be quite the dissuasion to fly them.

I hope they do a passable job going through the pirate ships.

Nyvis

France284 Posts

January 26 2013 21:33 GMT

#28624

The problem isn't the T1/T2 comparison, I think. The problem is that T3s are broken, and are basically better versions of most T2 ships, especially for hacs where there is nothing hacs can do and T3 don't (it's different for recons, where for example hugins have better web range than lokis). T2 should stay a little bit above T1, but not that much, so that if you're willing to invest to get a little advantage (for example to fight outnumbered), you can, without it being ridiculous. T3s are just stupid. They can tank like BS, dps for nearly as much, and have the speed and sig resolution of a cruiser. Price isn't a justification for power. Blap titans proved it, you can't up the power as much as you want by just countering it by increasing the price. T2s could be fine being a slight upgrade of T1 for a real upgrade in price, because the difference is still reasonable (some are broken bad, like the caldari ones for example, but I'm sure CCP will bring more balance between the hacs when they'll look at T2). They just suffer too much from the comparison with T3, which blurs completely the line between ship sizes by the sheer power and tanking they offer at cruiser size. A T3 should not offer more efficiency in a given domain compared to a T2, it should just be more flexible and open more paths and possibilities.

Edit : if you make T2 more than just slightly better than T1, you will just bring back the previous state where T1 cruisers are for newbies and are useless in real fights. It would completely kill the interest of buffing the T1 cruisers. T2 should be for players rich enough to pay a lot for a slight advantage in fights. There are a lot of theses, but at the moment, their option is T3s because they are way too good.

Warri

Germany3208 Posts

January 26 2013 21:59 GMT

#28625

You cant make t2 better than t3 without t3 becoming completely useless. The whole "but t3s are so versatile blablabla" is just an argument used by poor people who cant afford t3s and the skillpoint loss. t3s are not versatile. For the price of a versatile t3 you can have 5 fucking t2 hulls and if each of them is better in their field then there is no reason to own a t3. Now one would say the exception might be wormholes where you are indeed limited by what you can bring in, BUT LOL CCP cant refit subsystems at a pos so t3s are completely nonversatile there.

The general eve player is so fucking scared of losing his shiny ship that apart from PvE tengus you never see t3s in combat anyway. They could make them 5x stronger than they currently are, yet almost no one would fly them anyway because they would still cost 500m upwards and OHMYGOD MY KB STATS. Its easier to cry on the forums when your fleet of 10 t1 hulls which cost 1/20th of the single t3 ship theyre fighting gets shredded to pieces. And if they do happen to catch and kill you they will _smack_ _the_ _living__shit_ out of you for losing such shiny which they never would have the fucking balls to fly themselves.

Nyvis

France284 Posts

January 26 2013 22:05 GMT

#28626

Versatile in the sense that you can have a proteus deal decent damages and tank correctly while being able to use it's tackle bonus. Same for a loki.
And I never said to make t2 better than t3 on one role. I said to make them equal on the basics of the role (mobility/tanking/dps/range), but have some unusual bonuses (like tackle for proteus, web for loki, immunity to bubbles...).

Ramiel

United States1220 Posts

January 26 2013 22:07 GMT

#28627

In solo small gang the teck 3s are really underwhelming for the price in most cases. They certainly dont have bs size ehp or tank, and they have pretty abysmal dps. The proteus and loki have no dps projection, and unless the loki is rolling webs- both hulls are useless for small gang and solo. Unless you count cloaky pve killing gfs. So your left with a legion and tengu. Legion is ok when shield fit, and average when armor tanked. Tengu was castrated and now does no dps, but still has that bitchin 100mn option.

Your vastly overstating tech 3. The new t1 cruisers are really good. They are for the most part better than the pirate cruisers, and many of the hacs. Hacs are in a shitty place currently, as are the teck 3.

Ramiel

United States1220 Posts

January 26 2013 22:13 GMT

#28628

Well if you are brawling in a protues you are going to get scammed, ecm droned and blobbed. If you make a web loki, you have abysmal dps / projection or an armor tank that hurts you even more. Pick your poison. Legion is the same way, armor tank and lose dps / projection or fit an xlasb and have a limited tank time. Either way, a ship that costs as much as a carrier should be good. I dont hear people complaining when r&k does massive bullshit with their multi billion isk carriers, but strap a 100mn on a tengu worth the same price tag and ohh god the tears.

Nyvis

France284 Posts

January 26 2013 22:29 GMT

#28629

Maybe because you can't rep sieged dreads/triage carriers? But you can with T3s, so their power scales linearly with number?

Body_Shield

Canada3373 Posts

January 27 2013 00:12 GMT

#28630

On January 27 2013 07:13 Ramiel wrote:
Well if you are brawling in a protues you are going to get scammed, ecm droned and blobbed. If you make a web loki, you have abysmal dps / projection or an armor tank that hurts you even more. Pick your poison. Legion is the same way, armor tank and lose dps / projection or fit an xlasb and have a limited tank time. Either way, a ship that costs as much as a carrier should be good. I dont hear people complaining when r&k does massive bullshit with their multi billion isk carriers, but strap a 100mn on a tengu worth the same price tag and ohh god the tears.

It doesn't cost as much as a carrier, carriers are 1.5 bil or something now to buy it off the market, and you can t2 fit it for not much more. A strat cruiser with t2 fittings is like 500 million. CCP doesn't count deadspace stuff as actual things that people use.

KwarK

United States44245 Posts

January 27 2013 00:18 GMT

#28631

On January 27 2013 07:29 Nyvis wrote:
Maybe because you can't rep sieged dreads/triage carriers? But you can with T3s, so their power scales linearly with number?

Most tech 3 fleets aren't able to generate as much self reps as a triage archon can, that'd be quite a few guardians.

tofucake

Hyrule19237 Posts

January 27 2013 01:13 GMT

#28632

On January 27 2013 06:59 Warri wrote:
you never see t3s in combat anyway

wat

Ramiel

United States1220 Posts

January 27 2013 01:43 GMT

#28633

Who t2 fits their teck 3's? If you do that then you literally are spending a boat load for a ship that doesn't really perform all that well. Your pvp proper tier three is at LEAST 1bil+ in fitting. The tengu alone runs with a 350/400 prop. And while i realize ccp doesn't recognize the existence of dead space mods, if the average eve player would just stop and look at how much a tier 3 costs, i think people would be less mad. But that would require the use of 3 neurons + breathing, which is asking a bit much from you average player.

tofucake

Hyrule19237 Posts

January 27 2013 02:12 GMT

#28634

who spells tech teck?

and a pvp TIER 3 is about 150m

Nyvis

France284 Posts

January 27 2013 02:19 GMT

#28635

On January 27 2013 10:43 Ramiel wrote:
Who t2 fits their teck 3's? If you do that then you literally are spending a boat load for a ship that doesn't really perform all that well. Your pvp proper tier three is at LEAST 1bil+ in fitting. The tengu alone runs with a 350/400 prop. And while i realize ccp doesn't recognize the existence of dead space mods, if the average eve player would just stop and look at how much a tier 3 costs, i think people would be less mad. But that would require the use of 3 neurons + breathing, which is asking a bit much from you average player.

Price should not be everything. Paying more for your ship should always give you a slight edge, but not an enormous one, so that rich players have a way to use the money to get the advantage, but can't roll over the ones with less money.