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On August 13 2012 19:22 jfourz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 19:14 Impervious wrote:
It's already heavily tanked. It's heavily speed tanked, and heavily dps tanked. What more do you need? that thing has no tank. i don't think i need to tell you but leaving a mid or low slot empty is basically unforgivable on any ship you will die in 5 seconds to drones and other frigs. anything that can't catch you or can't match your range will just leave. it is a terrible fit. here's a better one (note: still bad) that i made in 30 sec doesn't use your ~elitepvp~ implants, although you should just fit a scram and blasters with null anyway [Atron, atron] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II 125mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Uranium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Uranium Charge S Core Probe Launcher I /OFFLINE 125mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Uranium Charge S Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
You clearly don't understand the purpose of a kiting fit. When you are outside of the enemy damage range, you take zero damage, so you do not need a tank..... All you have to do is something called *gasp* manually pilot your ship and you'll be fine. If you die, it's because you fucked up.....
You have to pick and choose your fights accordingly. No, you won't always catch someone when they try to slingshot, but if you notice it quick enough, and you are in a much more agile frigate than them, you can still catch them. The more competent the pilot, the better they will be at escaping.
In a kiting fit, I can literally take on a small gang and see if I can get some kills (and I have done that in a much shittier ship than the one I listed). In a brawling fit, I will always lose a 2v1, even if I manage to kill one of them.....
Here, I'll even list my arty rifter fit + Show Spoiler +[Rifter, MWD Arty]
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Gyrostabilizer II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 100
Warp Disruptor II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot S
[Empty High slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Zainou 'Gypsy' Electronics EE-603
Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' Evasive Maneuvering EM-703
Zor's Custom Navigation Hyper-Link
Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Surgical Strike SS-903
Same implants - I've started fitting all my ships based around this specific implant set, because the 3% cpu implant opens up a lot of fitting possibilities, and the other implants are just generally good, and cheap, implants. They are not "elitepvp" implants.....
On the Atron fit, I have what I need, and I do not have the fitting space to put anything else on it. I know it's bad to leave a slot empty, but, really, I don't see anything useful that I can put on there without drastically reducing the kiting capabilities of the ship, so why should I really worry about it that much?
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welp, try to help and you get shouted down
yeah if what you're doing beats RvB scrubs then keep doing it i guess
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On August 13 2012 13:39 SCDoGo wrote:Gotta say, that has to be the most bad-ass capsule I've ever seen. It's packin' heat.
http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12283986
Just sayin'
In other news, I am now losing tengus faster than I train subs back 
(and lost a 500mil cynabal cos; fuckit, 25% efficiency)
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Ha im also ships, went on a roam in my deimos, got into some action with a eve uni drake but he got out of rangeand warped off, after i got back to Assah i undocked in ferox there was a dramiel, no other ships in local andhe yellow boxed me. I had warrior IIs on board so thought why not, locked, pointed, dram not running drones doing there job, next thing local explodes and the tables are turned. The point is on me and i get blobbed yet again. Sometimes its fun being bad at Eve
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jfourz, I think the main problem you have with impervious's atron fit is it has a very very small margin of error. However you used a weak arguent with faulty logic of 'if it cant catch you or project out to your range, it wil simply leave (or slingshot and you die)' Allow me to explain why that argument wont hold up well.
If you are faster, more agile, and have a better projection than the opponent then it will be unable to escape you. To escape you it would have to run away so unless your forced to flying scared (kiting at 20-28km and having to heat your point often) you can simply chase after it controling your speed to help prevent slingshots. This is percisely why the imperial navy slicer and the artillery fit wolf are so popular. Had your argument been true, then most nano fits in the game would be completely unplayable since you either die or dont get any kills. However it all comes down to manual piloting, and how mch of a margin of error your fit or the situation gives you.
Additionally one glaring mistake you made that I want to point out is that you forget polycarb rigs give agility and speed. Dual polycarb rigs are actually marginally superior to a t2 nanofiber if I have my math right, although someone else can feel free to run the numbers and prove me wrong. A better argument would be to give your 125mm kiting fit, pointing out that it has a significantly better margin of error due to the tank you can fit, disadvantage being you lose dps are are forced into longer ranged ammo for a similar projection.
So to summerize, impervious's fit gives better dps and projection at the cost of being able to fit a tank at all and gives you a fairly small margin of error when kiting another mwd fit frigate. Jfourz's fit give you decreased dps/projection but is able to fit a much better tank giving you a bit more breathing room when kiting.
Interesting fact: You can apply this argument to different variations of podla drakes (dual nano vs polycarb/dcu) but it all ultimately comes down to what kind of attributes you perfer to prioritize in a ship.
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vov i respect your opinion more than most and i agree with you my main problem with his fit is the margin for error (assuming competent opponents.) i'd almost say that the margin for error was so small it's not feasible to rely on you not making that error, that combined with how specific you have to be in target selection is the reason i say it's a bad fit
polycarb rigs give good agility/speed yeah, but a nano uses a low slot which is less valuable than rig slots when you are also trying to shield tank, so i wouldn't really call that a "glaring mistake"
i don't really want to get into an argument about it, i was just trying to help out an RvB'er, so i hope we can leave it at that and move on
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Hyrule18974 Posts
looks like API verification takes more than 5 hours
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When you phrase it like that it stops being an arguent and starts being a discussion that can actually help people, not just the people involved in the discussion, but the people reading it as well. Margin of error is always a good thing to have, but taking it away can also be helpful as well.
For example, there are plenty of fights where at some stage a line is crossed and nothing short of me turning off my point will preveent me from winning. However, remove the margin of error and I am forced to not only be the better pilot in the beginning stages, but throughout the entirety of the fight. This can be a good way to really test your manual piloting skills and find what your personal limits are.
The end result is that the stage where you 'know' you win the fight comes much sooner and you feel alot more comfortable taking risks and are not 'flying scared' all the time. This effect really depends on the person though and does not work for everyone, some get more out of pushing their margin of error to the limit (using it as leverage so to speak) by taking risks with it but not removing it entirely.
Secondly target selection, first lets list of what you can't fight: Wolves, Slicers, Drams, (those are the big 3 that most frigates avoid like the plague) as well as caldari/gallente assualt frigs (since hybrids don't really do anything to them) some assualt frig and faction frig fits (rail comet, kiting retribution, worm) and some destroyers (arty thrashers, rail catalysts, and coercers).
Now a list of what you can feasibly engage: Any t1 frigate, jaguars, vengances, blaster comets, firetails, ac thrashers, blaster catalysts, cormorants, brawling retributions, pretty much all interceptors and possibly daredevils. Not bad for a t1 frigate. Just remember that you can and will lose to anyone who is a better pilot than you in any of the ships you can engage, but as stated above if your trying to force yourself to get better at manually piloting this is still a good variance in target selection.
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a lot of what you are saying is just fluff; but you basically just say if you're a better pilot you'll win against these ships because they are close enough in power
that doesn't make a good fit imo
a good fit should give you an edge so even if you aren't as good a pilot, you can have good EV when you engage. plus if you are asking for help / posting fits for criticism it's assumed you aren't that great of a pilot so you have to take that into account
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There is no way a good fit can compensate for bad piloting, unless your opponent is completely retarded. A dual prop cynabal is a good fit, but ram it into a podla drake (bad piloting) and you die. What a good fit does is amplify the effect of good piloting, allowing you to do some very nice things.
For example, a bad slicer is one where you can just align away from, fake a slingshot and get out. A good slicer on the other hand is likely to see the slingshot, slow down and either move away at limited speed (to compensate for when you try to pull away) and then just brawl you down with multi if you insist on approaching for an extended time. Both slicers are fit the same way but the pilot skill is what makes the fit good, not the other way around. The slicer could have been bad enough to think it can brawl early on in a fight and straight up die.
This brings me to another point, assuming a fit makes a pilot good is alot like puting a tank on a slicer. The strength of the ship comes from the pilots ability to manipulate range as an advantage, not the ships ability to brawl (despite the slicer having the ability to swap to multi and brawl down things that do manage to outpilot it in some cases).
The atron fit could potentially drop a polycarb for a cpu rig. This might allow it to change a tracking enhancer into a nano and allow you to fit a tracking comp with range script. I have no idea wether the reduced cap life would be worth it but the mention of killing something before reinforcements arrive lead me to believe the increased optimal and speed/agility (t2 nano is still better than a single polycarb) would be perferable in the fights impervious seems to want to engage in. It also becomes almost exactly like a bad railcomet just as the arty rifter is a bad artywolf.
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Hyrule18974 Posts
what?
A good Falcon fit entirely compensates for bad piloting!
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Oh my, argument in the Eve thread.
+ Show Spoiler +
I live for this shit.
User was warned for this post
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http://kespa.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14319491 Good pilots carry fof missiles.
On a more vov ranty note I just realized that despite me listing a number of things that a kiting atron can safely engage (basically anything that cant hit out past 13km and doesnt move faster than 4k) jfourz considers it fluff. I did not call him an idiot for that and wish to correct that issue now.
Jfourz is an idiot for looking at a list of things that cannot hit out to 13km or normally move faster than 4kms and consider it fluff in the context of what a kiting atron can and cant engage. Anyone who isn't stupid will be kiting at 15-18k depending on the engagement only going out to 20 if recovering from a slingshot or having to fight something scary (daredevil). Now it sounds more like an argument so bodyshield is happy.
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On August 14 2012 10:36 Body_Shield wrote:Oh my, argument in the Eve thread. + Show Spoiler + I live for this shit.
rofl body... can't ever go wrong with a chapelle gif
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On August 14 2012 09:39 Viceorvirtue wrote:
There is no way a good fit can compensate for bad piloting, unless your opponent is completely retarded. A dual prop cynabal is a good fit, but ram it into a podla drake (bad piloting) and you die. What a good fit does is amplify the effect of good piloting, allowing you to do some very nice things.
For example, a bad slicer is one where you can just align away from, fake a slingshot and get out. A good slicer on the other hand is likely to see the slingshot, slow down and either move away at limited speed (to compensate for when you try to pull away) and then just brawl you down with multi if you insist on approaching for an extended time. Both slicers are fit the same way but the pilot skill is what makes the fit good, not the other way around. The slicer could have been bad enough to think it can brawl early on in a fight and straight up die.
This brings me to another point, assuming a fit makes a pilot good is alot like puting a tank on a slicer. The strength of the ship comes from the pilots ability to manipulate range as an advantage, not the ships ability to brawl (despite the slicer having the ability to swap to multi and brawl down things that do manage to outpilot it in some cases).
The atron fit could potentially drop a polycarb for a cpu rig. This might allow it to change a tracking enhancer into a nano and allow you to fit a tracking comp with range script. I have no idea wether the reduced cap life would be worth it but the mention of killing something before reinforcements arrive lead me to believe the increased optimal and speed/agility (t2 nano is still better than a single polycarb) would be perferable in the fights impervious seems to want to engage in. It also becomes almost exactly like a bad railcomet just as the arty rifter is a bad artywolf.
Thank you for making my point for me.
I agree that smaller rails and a tank are better for solo fights, however, when engaging a small gang, I need to kill whatever my target is ASAP, because if I get scrammed, I'm dead. It does not matter if I can kill my target 1v1 in scram range when I get blobbed..... As such, I need to design my ship to stay away from scram range, and at that range, I should be taking minimal damage from just about anything. With how fast I am, I can just avoid anything that does have decent damage projection at long range. Using the "look at" feature to see how they are fitted is quite useful for figuring out what I can and cannot engage.
And I did think of putting a tracking computer on it, through the use of an overclocking rig, but it does significantly decrease the capacitor life of the ship. If I find that I do not run into cap problems, then that was one of the changes I was going to experiment with.
However, it's going to take me roughly 2 weeks to get gallente frig to 5, and small rail spec to 4, so if someone with the skills wants to give it a go and let me know how it handles, I'd be all ears.
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On August 14 2012 12:16 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 09:39 Viceorvirtue wrote:
There is no way a good fit can compensate for bad piloting, unless your opponent is completely retarded. A dual prop cynabal is a good fit, but ram it into a podla drake (bad piloting) and you die. What a good fit does is amplify the effect of good piloting, allowing you to do some very nice things.
For example, a bad slicer is one where you can just align away from, fake a slingshot and get out. A good slicer on the other hand is likely to see the slingshot, slow down and either move away at limited speed (to compensate for when you try to pull away) and then just brawl you down with multi if you insist on approaching for an extended time. Both slicers are fit the same way but the pilot skill is what makes the fit good, not the other way around. The slicer could have been bad enough to think it can brawl early on in a fight and straight up die.
This brings me to another point, assuming a fit makes a pilot good is alot like puting a tank on a slicer. The strength of the ship comes from the pilots ability to manipulate range as an advantage, not the ships ability to brawl (despite the slicer having the ability to swap to multi and brawl down things that do manage to outpilot it in some cases).
The atron fit could potentially drop a polycarb for a cpu rig. This might allow it to change a tracking enhancer into a nano and allow you to fit a tracking comp with range script. I have no idea wether the reduced cap life would be worth it but the mention of killing something before reinforcements arrive lead me to believe the increased optimal and speed/agility (t2 nano is still better than a single polycarb) would be perferable in the fights impervious seems to want to engage in. It also becomes almost exactly like a bad railcomet just as the arty rifter is a bad artywolf. Thank you for making my point for me. I agree that smaller rails and a tank are better for solo fights, however, when engaging a small gang, I need to kill whatever my target is ASAP, because if I get scrammed, I'm dead. It does not matter if I can kill my target 1v1 in scram range when I get blobbed..... As such, I need to design my ship to stay away from scram range, and at that range, I should be taking minimal damage from just about anything. With how fast I am, I can just avoid anything that does have decent damage projection at long range. Using the "look at" feature to see how they are fitted is quite useful for figuring out what I can and cannot engage. And I did think of putting a tracking computer on it, through the use of an overclocking rig, but it does significantly decrease the capacitor life of the ship. If I find that I do not run into cap problems, then that was one of the changes I was going to experiment with. However, it's going to take me roughly 2 weeks to get gallente frig to 5, and small rail spec to 4, so if someone with the skills wants to give it a go and let me know how it handles, I'd be all ears.
You're talking about two completely different things. If you are solo fighting you're thinking about the correct setup since - assuming your superior piloting skill - you can control range properly and engage lots of the by VoV already mentioned ships without having to think a lot of the time. What also does not matter (as much) in solo fights is the time it takes for you to kill your target and the distance you both travel while doing so.
However, once you're trying to engage a small gang the scenario completely changes. Your goal is now to isolate and kill someone before a) his backup can get close enough or b) he can get close enough to his backup. While your setup is great at not dieing in those situations it's also pretty horrible at killing things compared to a brawler fit. In situations like this proper isolation and web/scram/max dps are far superior to your range controlling setup.
I don't have access to an updated eft at the moment, but I'm pretty sure your (compared to close range fits) lousy dps and the lack of controlling the enemies movement speed will leave you with lots of situations where can isolate someone and then will have to disengage because his buddies will arrive/he will mwd back to them. You're basically trading increased safety against needing a much longer time to isolate someone and (this one is important) on your enemy making horribly stupid decisions (MWD dancing with you into oblivion).
If you count on the latter you might as well run a fit that can kill stuff quicker at the risk of getting blobbed if you isolate badly.
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On August 14 2012 15:26 r.Evo wrote:
I don't have access to an updated eft at the moment, but I'm pretty sure your (compared to close range fits) lousy dps and the lack of controlling the enemies movement speed will leave you with lots of situations where can isolate someone and then will have to disengage because his buddies will arrive/he will mwd back to them. You're basically trading increased safety against needing a much longer time to isolate someone and (this one is important) on your enemy making horribly stupid decisions (MWD dancing with you into oblivion).
i second this, and like i said earlier want to reinforce the fact that your fit relies on them making mistakes, which is not what a good fit should rely on
Jfourz is an idiot for looking at a list of things that cannot hit out to 13km or normally move faster than 4kms and consider it fluff in the context of what a kiting atron can and cant engage
we all knew what those fits were, you could have just said "anything that is slower than 4kms-1 and can't project to 13km" but you had to list every single thing you thought fit that criterion to make yourself seem like you know what you are talking about
There is no way a good fit can compensate for bad piloting,
it can't compensate no, but it helps bridge the gap between you and your opponent. i cannot count the number of fights i have won and wondered how the fuck x beat y only to look at his fit and understand. this fit will never result in winning a fight you would have lost otherwise, but it will result in losing fights you should have won, mainly due to its toilet paper tank and 0 room for deviation from perfect piloting
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
i second this, and like i said earlier want to reinforce the fact that your fit relies on them making mistakes, which is not what a good fit should rely on
I can't think of many pvppp situations in which the soloer ends up with a kill and lives without the enemy gang having made some horrific mistake
this argument is pretty humorous though (a lot of it reminds me of my behavior from ~1 year ago), please continue on
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv286/Body_Shield/New%20Album/y26BL.gif)
