EPTEVE Corporation - Page 1077
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hagon
United Kingdom556 Posts
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Body_Shield
Canada3368 Posts
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
You guys are worse that than the sc2 strategy forum whiners. This is the same shit posting that happens on patch note day. ZOMGZ THIS PATCH RUINS MY 5 RAX REAPER BUILD, BLIZZARD DOESNT EVEN PLAY THIS GAME! CCP's stated goal here was to completely jumble up the current theory crafting and force people to restart the fitting meta game to break up what has been a rather stale portion of the game. Hell we've been beating the Nano gang bit for nearly 2 fucking years, suddenly qq when we might need to try to new strategies or change around ships and fittings. Hell, if they hadn't given us the new bc's we'd all still be in drakes and canes, change here is welcome. | ||
tofucake
Hyrule18967 Posts
anyways, whatever. We'll see what happens | ||
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Warri
Germany3208 Posts
On April 24 2012 07:37 abominare wrote: You guys are worse that than the sc2 strategy forum whiners. This is the same shit posting that happens on patch note day. ZOMGZ THIS PATCH RUINS MY 5 RAX REAPER BUILD, BLIZZARD DOESNT EVEN PLAY THIS GAME! CCP's stated goal here was to completely jumble up the current theory crafting and force people to restart the fitting meta game to break up what has been a rather stale portion of the game. Hell we've been beating the Nano gang bit for nearly 2 fucking years, suddenly qq when we might need to try to new strategies or change around ships and fittings. Hell, if they hadn't given us the new bc's we'd all still be in drakes and canes, change here is welcome. Assuming same drawbacks as trimarks, a drake suffers 15% speed penalty, bringing it down to just under 1500m/s with links and quafe but no cy-1, whatever its new name is. This is not huge, you could just swap one CDFE for a polycarbon and get a damage control instead of a nano, youll have almost the same stats as before, only slightly worse. For active shield, nothing changes, one or two resistance rigs have barely noticable speed malus, especially at rigging V. For passive armor tanking, nothing changes. Now lets analyze which ships are typically used for active armor tanking. It is the vindicator, the myrmidon, the dominix, the sfi and some frigates(barely worth noting). None of these really rely on speed, in case of the sfi, it relies on both speed and sig, so it will be roughly the same. Now were done listing what changes with the ships, lets look at specifical fleettypes. Theres the smallgang nanofleet, which relies on speed to outmaneuver the enemy. This will get nerfed slightly. Then theres the smallgang armor fleets, mostly bcs or t3s with guardians, they will be barely touched. And then theres the large blobs, who dont really use their speed, even on shield tanks, but rely on their signature to mitigate damage, especially 1400 and titan guns. 10mn ab tengus and perma mwd drakes comes to mind. Both get a slightly slower speed, which they dont use 99% of the time when theyre orbiting their anchor. Instead they get rid of the signature malus, helping mitigate damage even more. So how is exactly is this not just another hit on smallscale towards blobfests, even if its as small as 5-10%, but a "jumble up the current theory crafting"? If youre bored by our fleets, why dont you fly another ship but oracle? Try a huginn, a curse, a scimi, hell even a dictor. I dont want to change our setup, ive barely flown anything else but drake and tengu myself so far. | ||
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Dbars
United States273 Posts
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:06 Warri wrote: Assuming same drawbacks as trimarks, a drake suffers 15% speed penalty, bringing it down to just under 1500m/s with links and quafe but no cy-1, whatever its new name is. This is not huge, you could just swap one CDFE for a polycarbon and get a damage control instead of a nano, youll have almost the same stats as before, only slightly worse. For active shield, nothing changes, one or two resistance rigs have barely noticable speed malus, especially at rigging V. For passive armor tanking, nothing changes. Now lets analyze which ships are typically used for active armor tanking. It is the vindicator, the myrmidon, the dominix, the sfi and some frigates(barely worth noting). None of these really rely on speed, in case of the sfi, it relies on both speed and sig, so it will be roughly the same. Now were done listing what changes with the ships, lets look at specifical fleettypes. Theres the smallgang nanofleet, which relies on speed to outmaneuver the enemy. This will get nerfed slightly. Then theres the smallgang armor fleets, mostly bcs or t3s with guardians, they will be barely touched. And then theres the large blobs, who dont really use their speed, even on shield tanks, but rely on their signature to mitigate damage, especially 1400 and titan guns. 10mn ab tengus and perma mwd drakes comes to mind. Both get a slightly slower speed, which they dont use 99% of the time when theyre orbiting their anchor. Instead they get rid of the signature malus, helping mitigate damage even more. So how is exactly is this not just another hit on smallscale towards blobfests, even if its as small as 5-10%, but a "jumble up the current theory crafting"? If youre bored by our fleets, why dont you fly another ship but oracle? Try a huginn, a curse, a scimi, hell even a dictor. I dont want to change our setup, ive barely flown anything else but drake and tengu myself so far. Confirming this will be the only change this year? They haven't even got to cruiser much less battle cruiser readjustments. Frigates are coming soon, and the rest will follow, there will be new modules and adjustments of existing. With any luck the nano gang will look very different this winter. More interesting towards our comp is the rumor that links may go on grid only, which would be a fantastic way to spice up our fleets, rather than just tossing up the random link alt in the middle of nowhere fairly safe. Regardless though I would never expect any of the adjustment changes to ever consider the small gang aspect, thats just not what sells eve unfortunately, thinking otherwise is naive if not borderline delusional. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
On April 24 2012 07:37 abominare wrote: You guys are worse that than the sc2 strategy forum whiners. This is the same shit posting that happens on patch note day. ZOMGZ THIS PATCH RUINS MY 5 RAX REAPER BUILD, BLIZZARD DOESNT EVEN PLAY THIS GAME! CCP's stated goal here was to completely jumble up the current theory crafting and force people to restart the fitting meta game to break up what has been a rather stale portion of the game. Hell we've been beating the Nano gang bit for nearly 2 fucking years, suddenly qq when we might need to try to new strategies or change around ships and fittings. Hell, if they hadn't given us the new bc's we'd all still be in drakes and canes, change here is welcome. holy fuck this is like girl blog level badposting. Did you even read the relevant Ytterbium post? we want races that need to use speed in combat (Gallente and Minmatar) to favor active tanking Lets take a stereotypical minmatar ship that lacks formal shield tanking bonuses. Say, the Hurricane. I'm going to assume that based on the slot layout that CCP's vision is for it to favor active armor tanking. -Do you know what a tracking enhancer does? -Do you know what slot a tracking enhancer goes into? -Do you know what slot an armor repairer goes into? -Do you know what range a warp scrambler has, and what it does? If you put together these facts you'll realize why "rely on speed" and active armor tanking are pretty silly. Unless CCP's vision for a metagame shift in combat is to have every active tanked ship just f1-approaching each other. You are correct that I would be less than happy with that. And if you're hinging your argument on "well CCP might change other shit", you're once again assuming that CCP even understands basic fitting concepts. More interesting towards our comp is the rumor that links may go on grid only, which would be a fantastic way to spice up our fleets, rather than just tossing up the random link alt in the middle of nowhere fairly safe. o\ For a person that undocks less than the unsubbed guy, you sure seem to have a lot of interesting opinions. | ||
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Warri
Germany3208 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:31 abominare wrote: Confirming this will be the only change this year? They haven't even got to cruiser much less battle cruiser readjustments. Frigates are coming soon, and the rest will follow, there will be new modules and adjustments of existing. With any luck the nano gang will look very different this winter. More interesting towards our comp is the rumor that links may go on grid only, which would be a fantastic way to spice up our fleets, rather than just tossing up the random link alt in the middle of nowhere fairly safe. Regardless though I would never expect any of the adjustment changes to ever consider the small gang aspect, thats just not what sells eve unfortunately, thinking otherwise is naive if not borderline delusional. Thats why were talking specifically about the rig changes, which is plain useless and even damaging. | ||
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:42 419 wrote: holy fuck this is like girl blog level badposting. Did you even read the relevant Ytterbium post? Lets take a stereotypical minmatar ship that lacks formal shield tanking bonuses. Say, the Hurricane. I'm going to assume that based on the slot layout that CCP's vision is for it to favor active armor tanking. -Do you know what a tracking enhancer does? -Do you know what slot a tracking enhancer goes into? -Do you know what slot an armor repairer goes into? -Do you know what range a warp scrambler has, and what it does? If you put together these facts you'll realize why "rely on speed" and active armor tanking are pretty silly. Unless CCP's vision for a metagame shift in combat is to have every active tanked ship just f1-approaching each other. You are correct that I would be less than happy with that. And if you're hinging your argument on "well CCP might change other shit", you're once again assuming that CCP even understands basic fitting concepts. For a person that undocks less than the unsubbed guy you sure seem to have a lot of interesting opinions This was something that was beaten into fanfest (and most of ytter's thread(s)) that CCP wants to re tune the entire lineup into more obvious roles to change the meta. So yes I'm going to assume that CCP plans to do more than one more patch of changes, that would be a sane thing to think, rather than just pretending that a handful of changes in singular context will be the only changes to ever be made in forever. In fact I think its amazing that suddenly lows might be used for more than what they are. Current fitting plan pretty much follows this. 1. Fit all the extenders, and a point/mwd 2. Is ship t3 bc? Yes = Get all the Gyros(or equiv) and TE's No= put in nanofiber then fit all the gyros and TE 3. Fit guns. 4.Win nano. For example again your cane. Before we used arties we used autos, and the two have their time and place currently, regardless you could make the short range guns reach long point ranges because lol I have all the lows. If suddenly theres a reason to use armor tanking, then suddenly you're having a much more interesting gameplay decision to make. Suddenly those lows just got a hell of a lot more valuable, more tank? Less projection. More projection, less tank. Less sig makes you harder to hit as well, kinda a nice trade off, nonethless now a pilot needs to also watch his tank reps and cap more closely, making it more pilot intensive and more interesting to me at least, fuck I might actually have to undock. Nano will be more reliant on using the longer ranged guns, so for perhaps not ourselves, but others using the cane there is now a discussion on filling the gaps that moving from auto to arty incurs. Or lets take the current talk of having shield rigs potentially slow you down if they're passive bonused. A shield buffered nano gang needs to theory out whats better, going faster with less tank, or potentially letting the rigs slow them down and leaving the opportunity that an active tanked gang could potentially catch them with better speed and be an actual counter to it. You know whats best about these discussions? We're actually having conversations over what would now be the new optimal builds, which of course would be the actual reason for the damn changes in the first place. New outlooks on fittings and fleet comps is healthy for the game. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
In that case, CCP should consider tripling EC- drone and falcon jam strength, I am sure that the meta changes will be v. healthy for the game. How about reducing long point ranges to 13 km? Or reducing MWD speed bonus by 50% (ship speeds are too damn high)? Oh, and then there's the issue that, linked-crystaled-drugged monsters aside, there is just the fact that active ships are straight up inferior in any fight in which the gang size is ~5+ (they kind of have to be). But I guess that forcing 2 entire races to a certain niche is helpful for the metagame. For example again your cane. Before we used arties we used autos, and the two have their time and place currently, regardless you could make the short range guns reach long point ranges because lol I have all the lows. If suddenly theres a reason to use armor tanking, then suddenly you're having a much more interesting gameplay decision to make. Suddenly those lows just got a hell of a lot more valuable, more tank? Less projection. More projection, less tank. actually it is "any tank" + damage / no projection, any projection + damage, no tank, you can have projection and tank, no damage edit: upon re-reading, I have no idea what I'm saying, basically, assuming you want to have enough tank to not get drakerized, you get like 1 low slot, you get to pick between 1 gyro (mad deepz) 1 TE (mad projection). Maybe 2 if you feeling crazy, but then you have even less tank than the classic dual rep brutix. again you suffer from the delusion that CCP actually has any idea what the fuck they are doing, reading talk about the dominix being a hit and run assault ship should disabuse you of that notion rather quickly. Less sig makes you harder to hit as well, kinda a nice trade off, nonethless now a pilot needs to also watch his tank reps and cap more closely, making it more pilot intensive and more interesting to me at least, fuck I might actually have to undock. you can fly a dual rep brutix for the exact same effect currently Nano will be more reliant on using the longer ranged guns, so for perhaps not ourselves, but others using the cane there is now a discussion on filling the gaps that moving from auto to arty incurs. that discussion has already been had (hint: arty wins 95% of the time already) I can't think of a decent nano group nowadays that uses autocanes on a medium (5+ gang size) basis. | ||
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:49 Warri wrote: Thats why were talking specifically about the rig changes, which is plain useless and even damaging. Which by itself is a rather tiny nerf to begin with, this month notwithstanding, judging from our kb making nano a little more difficult would make it all that more interesting test of the alliance's abilities. In SC terms, hovering at an 80% win rate might cause a race to get a little nerf. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
On April 24 2012 09:24 abominare wrote: Which by itself is a rather tiny nerf to begin with, this month notwithstanding, judging from our kb making nano a little more difficult would make it all that more interesting test of the alliance's abilities. In SC terms, hovering at an 80% win rate might cause a race to get a little nerf. I agree, in fact, I believe the correlation between piloting ability and ship-explode success rate should be as close to zero. All battles should be resolved by all pilots doing f1-approach, whoever f1 better win. Because this is fair and will ensure 50% win rates for all involved and thus ESPROTS will not be ruined. | ||
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
actually it is "any tank" + damage / no projection, any projection + damage, no tank, you can have projection and tank, no damage Semantics, you get the lose based idea, theres gameplay decsions to be had, more and tougher decisions are interesting in a game, this is a reason we all like SC, risk and rewards for different strategies. again you suffer from the delusion that CCP actually has any idea what the fuck they are doing, reading talk about the dominix being a hit and run assault ship should disabuse you of that notion rather quickly. Turning the dominix into potentially a gallente nanopest type ship would be pretty cool for a ship thats been relegated to mostly station games the last few years. This actually sounds pretty interesting. You're confusing what the ship is and does right now with what it could do in the future with changes. Will it be as fast as a cruiser? No, but it might open up whole new avenues on fleet comps. The difference here is I'm open to seeing how changes play out rather than sticking to the same ole rule set for a decade, even if theres a lengthy and confusing period that rewards those pushing the envelope of new rules. you can fly a dual rep brutix for the exact same effect currently Indeed, but its suboptimal to the point in nano gangs where you'd have a snowball's chance in hell of kwark letting you bring it in his fleet. But if things kept shifting something like this could become standard making the game dynamics different, change can be good or at least interesting. that discussion has already been had (hint: arty wins 95% of the time already) They both have a time and place, the role we needed was damage projection which yes obviously at the ranges we operate arty wins. Others may value it for different roles, whats important is when the alliance decided that arties were a better fit for us we were rewarded the spoils of adjusting our fit and getting more out of our fleet. This is good for the game. (edit: The irony here is that I was one of the ones to originally start the ball rolling on using arty canes based on how they better fit our ranged damage needs nearly 13 months ago, it took a few more month for it to fully cement because we were having a dialogue based on our needs for the neuts, that and similar people called me an idiot for suggesting that we ever switch in the first place since I didn't always play during prime time thus had no idea how eve works) Its at this point that I realize I'm arguing with a community that largely holds unchanging gameplay mechanics to a near religious level. SCBW was a game that certainly stop changing in that regard many years ago. However, not all games are meant to stand forever with out spicing thigns up, and I welcome a new round of getting to meta through optimal builds, its exciting because you in a way have to relearn the game and can separate yourself from others by finding the next new big thing before they could just log on to failheap and already find optimal fits. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
Semantics, you get the lose based idea, theres gameplay decsions to be had, more and tougher decisions are interesting in a game, this is a reason we all like SC, risk and rewards for different strategies. that sounds all fine and dandy what happens in :CCP reality: ? you get the prophecy | ||
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abominare
United States1216 Posts
On April 24 2012 09:45 419 wrote: that sounds all fine and dandy what happens in :CCP reality  you get the prophecy Then we find the new optimum ship builds and prove we aren't one trick ponies that skated by generally using fits and fleet comps that had been used before us (well in our defense we tweaked a little). | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
Managed to land 100k away from him on sun. Didn't want him to split so I said gl in local and proceeded to burn straight at him (while praying he wasn't arty fit). Well... turns out having RF EMP loaded vs an armor jag is really bad. Turns out it's also really bad if said jag is shield fit. Using EMP vs jag is bad. Thankfully he's active fit and I have a neut, so what I thought was my imminent demise turned into "lolpeace I've been spamming warp out since I hti structure and you ran out of cap". Did I forget to mention that for the first 5-10s of the fight I was sitting there trying to figure out why I wasn't shooting him? (I forgot to lock) Anyways, I repair and realize the error of my ways by asking my fellows where I went wrong. A few trollish comments later and a few giggles about how bad I am, fusion was loaded and barrage was on standby if he tried to sit at 5k. Boy oh boy what a difference shooting at 46% resists instead of 92% makes. Dude melted like butter before he could even figure out what had gone wrong. He was AB and web fit, so if he'd realized this fight was going horribly he really could have disengaged once he dropped into half armor since I was MWD fit. and he was just tipping me down below shields. http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13157726 Then again, he's using a pretty weird jag fit from what I can tell. Doesn't seem all that good to me. Aren't jags supposed to be able to control range? One web and an AB doesn't help with that when you're armor rigged and 400mm plate fit. Ah well, just another day in the life of a noob solo pirate. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
 http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13159566 Wow we have VERY similar fits. Wonder if he thought I was shield fit and just had bad ammo fitted. I have DCUII instead of hardener, meta scram/web instead of T2, and my rigs are trimark pump/anti-explo/burst. I was using PP b/c I wasn't sure of his fit. Edit: Oh I fit a MWD instead of AB also. So he could have dipped, but he did drop pretty fast so maybe he just didn't have the time to once he realized he was going down. Double Edit: Figure ah wth I'll just edit instead of new post. So I'm hauling stuff back to uplin when one of the people wanting me to fly with them calls out a thrasher in a belt that he just dscanned down. I instantly warp there and well... now I feel bad lol. Hatch drops only one thing dropped. http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13159717 LOL Oh I just actually looked at the KM, I guess only 1 thing dropping isn't so bad hahahahaha. I'm a horrible person T_T | ||
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Zedd Althor
United States67 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:22 Dbars wrote: If all the NPCs aggro in WC its like 1100 dps. I dont think a normal BS could handle that people will need to do it in a ishtar or tengu. CCP Navigator regarding this change. "This is in relation to some sites that would prevent NPC aggression if you kept warping in and out. It will not affect Worlds Collide or any other misis9ons which have natural aggression. This is just a simple bug fix." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1175237#post1175237 | ||
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Mandini
United States1717 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YH78W.jpg) 4 mag sites in ec- plus some others, all done within a few hours tonight. Screw lowsec combats, im sticking to this stuff. A bit under 1b after selling. | ||
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