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The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2.
WoW pvp? a joke.
I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_-
Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that
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On December 24 2011 09:15 Capped wrote:The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2. WoW pvp? a joke. I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_- Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that 
Strange that you feel this way. WoW has the best skill and reaction based PvP that I know of, certainly superior to that of Warhammer Online as well as SWTOR in it's current state (I haven't played the older MMOs). As other people have said, combat fluidity is the key. SWTOR's I think is acceptable, but it could be better.
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On December 24 2011 09:27 FrostFire626 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 09:15 Capped wrote:The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2. WoW pvp? a joke. I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_- Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that  Strange that you feel this way. WoW has the best skill and reaction based PvP that I know of,
If by "skill and reaction based" you mean "Whomever has the highest Resilience wins based" then yeah, I agree!
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Lalalaland34483 Posts
Er no. WoW PvP is very much not 100% based on resilience.
I never claimed lack of target of target == pvp sucks. I said it was something they should definitely consider adding, along with the couple other suggestions that I made.
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Lalalaland34483 Posts
I really hope that this game is really just not optimised at all because otherwise I have next to no hope of being able to run GW2.
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On December 24 2011 08:41 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 08:28 Zocat wrote:On December 24 2011 08:21 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 08:10 Zerothegreat wrote: I don't see a problem with the graphics? Buy a better computer and up your video settings... They are 10x better than WoW's. Oh wow it looks better than a game made in 2004. Well fuck me sideways, that has me convinced. ._. + Show Spoiler +Protip: DX10/11 are not available. Buying a "better computer" won't do jack shit. Just interested - what kind of graphics would you expect from a 2011/12 game? Give some other games for example. You know, I wouldn't quite mind if a game doesn't have top tier graphics if it had DX10/DX11 features which should be standard in ANY modern game. If they want to pull off some stylistic shit, by all means -- I don't mind. In fact, that can look really good if done right. However, forcing DX9 is just fucking stupid and lazy for a game coming out less than a month from 2012. As someone else said. If they added some better AA, textures, SSAO, and better post processing with DX10 and DX11, I would be quite happy with the state of this games graphics. Not everything needs to be HYPERREEALISTICSOGOOD like Crysis or whatever else you want to use for an example. However, just because you have "stylistic" art or intentionally dated graphics does not give reason to be lazy. Show nested quote +Take a look at SC2 and tell me the graphics weren't technically outdated. Now that's the key word. Blizzard has always used outdated graphics, but their art work is top notch. They can make a game from the 90s look gorgeous by today's standards. Hate to beat the dead horse even more, but at least SC2 had modern features in it. Dated graphics are fine, dated features is lazy. SC2 had DX10/11 at release. It has modern graphical settings such as AA, post processing, dynamic lighting, so on and so forth. SWTOR has none of this to the extent that we should have in a near-2012 release. It's dated graphics and dated services, which is nothing but lazy, especially with the funding this game had. SC2 is a dx9 game, it doesn't have dx11 support at all. And, DX10 is more of DX 9.1 than anything, "DX11 is what 10 should have been", nothing special about 10, it can be pretty much all done on dx9 hardware within the dx9 api. The only game, off the top of my head, that uses DX10 is Crysis, and it's DX10 implementation is a 'hackjob' doable in dx9, it was a gimmick, more than a fleshed out feature.
Also, The Witcher 2 is easily one of the best looking games ever made, and it's just DX9, the api isn't magic, it's the developer who does all the work making a game look good.
Most of SWTOR's apparent lack of 'tech' is it's art style, though it may not be one that's appealing to you...
It is missing a few things that would make it look a good bit better AO and SSS, however with SSS I think the art style may need a change if it were to be viable.
I highly doubt the engine just doesn't support fully dynamic light, just like Rage 100% baked lighting =/= the engine can't render dynamic light in real time.
AA can be forced through drivers or in an .ini, SC2 doesn't have it naively either... and hardware MSAA causes artifacts in differed renderers (such as SC2's, or a UE3 game) which is the reason for all these recent new AA methods, MLAA, SMAA, FXAA, all just post processes, to get around performance issues with MSAA and differed render issues, however, it's a compromise, though FXAA is pretty solid, MLAA blurs everything to no end And shimmers.
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On December 24 2011 09:34 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 09:27 FrostFire626 wrote:On December 24 2011 09:15 Capped wrote:The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2. WoW pvp? a joke. I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_- Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that  Strange that you feel this way. WoW has the best skill and reaction based PvP that I know of, If by "skill and reaction based" you mean "Whomever has the highest Resilience wins based" then yeah, I agree!
Comments like that are the mark of a bad PvPer. Anybody who thinks that resilience "ruined pvp" is a moron, and doesn't care about competitive pvp.
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On December 24 2011 09:59 Lumicide wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 08:41 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 08:28 Zocat wrote:On December 24 2011 08:21 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 08:10 Zerothegreat wrote: I don't see a problem with the graphics? Buy a better computer and up your video settings... They are 10x better than WoW's. Oh wow it looks better than a game made in 2004. Well fuck me sideways, that has me convinced. ._. + Show Spoiler +Protip: DX10/11 are not available. Buying a "better computer" won't do jack shit. Just interested - what kind of graphics would you expect from a 2011/12 game? Give some other games for example. You know, I wouldn't quite mind if a game doesn't have top tier graphics if it had DX10/DX11 features which should be standard in ANY modern game. If they want to pull off some stylistic shit, by all means -- I don't mind. In fact, that can look really good if done right. However, forcing DX9 is just fucking stupid and lazy for a game coming out less than a month from 2012. As someone else said. If they added some better AA, textures, SSAO, and better post processing with DX10 and DX11, I would be quite happy with the state of this games graphics. Not everything needs to be HYPERREEALISTICSOGOOD like Crysis or whatever else you want to use for an example. However, just because you have "stylistic" art or intentionally dated graphics does not give reason to be lazy. Take a look at SC2 and tell me the graphics weren't technically outdated. Now that's the key word. Blizzard has always used outdated graphics, but their art work is top notch. They can make a game from the 90s look gorgeous by today's standards. Hate to beat the dead horse even more, but at least SC2 had modern features in it. Dated graphics are fine, dated features is lazy. SC2 had DX10/11 at release. It has modern graphical settings such as AA, post processing, dynamic lighting, so on and so forth. SWTOR has none of this to the extent that we should have in a near-2012 release. It's dated graphics and dated services, which is nothing but lazy, especially with the funding this game had. SC2 is a dx9 game, it doesn't have dx11 support at all. And, DX10 is more of DX 9.1 than anything, "DX11 is what 10 should have been", nothing special about 10, it can be pretty much all done on dx9 hardware within the dx9 api. The only game, off the top of my head, that uses DX10 is Crysis, and it's DX10 implementation is a 'hackjob' doable in dx9, it was a gimmick, more than a fleshed out feature. Also, The Witcher 2 is easily one of the best looking games ever made, and it's just DX9, the api isn't magic, it's the developer who does all the work making a game look good. Most of SWTOR's apparent lack of 'tech' is it's art style, though it may not be one that's appealing to you... It is missing a few things that would make it look a good bit better AO and SSS, however with SSS I think the art style may need a change if it were to be viable. I highly doubt the engine just doesn't support fully dynamic light, just like Rage 100% baked lighting =/= the engine can't render dynamic light in real time. AA can be forced through drivers or in an .ini, SC2 doesn't have it naively either... and hardware MSAA causes artifacts in differed renderers (such as SC2's, or a UE3 game) which is the reason for all these recent new AA methods, MLAA, SMAA, FXAA, all just post processes, to get around performance issues with MSAA and differed render issues, however, it's a compromise, though FXAA is pretty solid, MLAA blurs everything to no end And shimmers.
If you were a business man wouldn't you cater to the broadest audience? You have to keep low requirements to get the best sales sadly.
I could care less for graphics long as the gameplay is fun. Let's take a look at Zelda, Ocarina of Time & A Link to the Past is still 2 of the best games ever and they don't have amazing graphics. :D
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I've been playing SWTOR for a week now. I've got all my closest friends from WoW in my guild playing with me. I must say we are having lots of fun together. The Flashpoints are very epic in comparison to any dungeon I've ever done in WoW. It has a lot more depth with having companions you can interact with. It does a great job of bringing the Star Wars feel alive.
All in all I have no problem with this game yet and I can't wait to see the end game.
Supposedly the first content patch will be somewhere in Feb. I wonder what they will bring in with that.
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Lalalaland34483 Posts
One PvE thing that makes me sad is that is that I have reached level 25 and have yet to have a single fight that isn't tank and spank. I don't know if I'm missing something or if they come later but....yeah. That's disappointing.
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On December 24 2011 10:10 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 09:34 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 09:27 FrostFire626 wrote:On December 24 2011 09:15 Capped wrote:The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2. WoW pvp? a joke. I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_- Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that  Strange that you feel this way. WoW has the best skill and reaction based PvP that I know of, If by "skill and reaction based" you mean "Whomever has the highest Resilience wins based" then yeah, I agree! Comments like that are the mark of a bad PvPer. Anybody who thinks that resilience "ruined pvp" is a moron, and doesn't care about competitive pvp.
But it did.
Rewarding people who play the most instead of those whom are the most skilled is silly. Equal playing fields are the way to go in my opinion. You're entitled to disagree, but don't make such a broad statement as "if you disagree with me, you're stupid."
._.
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On December 24 2011 10:21 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 10:10 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 24 2011 09:34 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 09:27 FrostFire626 wrote:On December 24 2011 09:15 Capped wrote:The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2. WoW pvp? a joke. I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_- Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that  Strange that you feel this way. WoW has the best skill and reaction based PvP that I know of, If by "skill and reaction based" you mean "Whomever has the highest Resilience wins based" then yeah, I agree! Comments like that are the mark of a bad PvPer. Anybody who thinks that resilience "ruined pvp" is a moron, and doesn't care about competitive pvp. But it did. Rewarding people who play the most instead of those whom are the most skilled is silly. Equal playing fields are the way to go in my opinion. You're entitled to disagree, but don't make such a broad statement as "if you disagree with me, you're stupid." ._. Res did infact ruin WoW PvP, and it made the game even easier than it was before. Nothing is "hard" in WoW anymore.
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On December 24 2011 10:29 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 10:21 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 10:10 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 24 2011 09:34 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 09:27 FrostFire626 wrote:On December 24 2011 09:15 Capped wrote:The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2. WoW pvp? a joke. I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_- Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that  Strange that you feel this way. WoW has the best skill and reaction based PvP that I know of, If by "skill and reaction based" you mean "Whomever has the highest Resilience wins based" then yeah, I agree! Comments like that are the mark of a bad PvPer. Anybody who thinks that resilience "ruined pvp" is a moron, and doesn't care about competitive pvp. But it did. Rewarding people who play the most instead of those whom are the most skilled is silly. Equal playing fields are the way to go in my opinion. You're entitled to disagree, but don't make such a broad statement as "if you disagree with me, you're stupid." ._. Res did infact ruin WoW PvP, and it made the game even easier than it was before. Nothing is "hard" in WoW anymore. You're right. My shield slams in vanilla that 1 shotted people were good for competitive PvP...
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4713 Posts
I think that res did ruin WoW, because with it the devs tried to move the game into a more tactical direction. You're supposed to CC, mana burn, burt DPS etc at the correct time to be good at WoW PVP now a days. The problem is, the game lost its visceral feel.
What the devs failed to consider is that, we don't care about tactical gameplay like that, we go into PVP to outright nuke the hell out of someone. I leveled a rogue and did some BGs at low level 40-60. I can honestly say that, playing PVP at lower levels like that is infinitely more fun than any PVP I had at high level. The visceral feel you get from nuking someone down in a heartbeat then moving on to your next target, so on and so forth is incredibly satisfying and irreplaceable.
And if you want to use the "its not fair to be killed in 2-3 seconds before you can act" argument, consider that it is exactly the same thing that happens in shooters, the guy with the quicker reflexes and better aim wins, the combat is fast paced and thrilling and it is why FPS games are some of the most beloved games on the planet. MMOs need to move more into that direction of providing fast, thrilling and entertaining PVP, not the huge 30-40 min arena games that you sometimes run into.
Back on track, while ToR does have some nice features and does innovate in some ways, I feel like the antiquated combat system is what will ultimately pull it, and other MMOs that use it, down. I mean you can only push the formula for so long until people get bored of it in any and all its ways and forms
I also hope no one in his right mind is seriously considering the abomination, called space combat, to be acceptable. If you've ever played something like X-Wing, Rogue Squadron or Battlefront 2, you know that, the ability to move where you want to, execute barrel rolls, loops, strafes etc, while also aiming for and killing your enemy is incomparably more fun and satisfying then auto-pilot ever will be. I don't care if they copied Star Fox or whatever, that kind of gameplay is as out dated as the combat system on land and is net inferior to what the above mentioned games provide in terms of sheer depth, thrill and enjoyment.
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On December 24 2011 10:21 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 10:10 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 24 2011 09:34 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 09:27 FrostFire626 wrote:On December 24 2011 09:15 Capped wrote:The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2. WoW pvp? a joke. I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_- Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that  Strange that you feel this way. WoW has the best skill and reaction based PvP that I know of, If by "skill and reaction based" you mean "Whomever has the highest Resilience wins based" then yeah, I agree! Comments like that are the mark of a bad PvPer. Anybody who thinks that resilience "ruined pvp" is a moron, and doesn't care about competitive pvp. But it did. Rewarding people who play the most instead of those whom are the most skilled is silly. Equal playing fields are the way to go in my opinion. You're entitled to disagree, but don't make such a broad statement as "if you disagree with me, you're stupid." ._.
You know i just played WoW on a 10 day trial(scroll of ressurection) and in that time, playing a few hours a day, i got both my paladin and druid in full current season gear. It doesn't take time at all to get your resilience gear. People who think resilience is a bad thing are the people who don't care about COMPETITIVE pvp. Without resilience any form of competitive pvp would be entirely broken(and if you say its broken now, then it would make it 100x more broken).
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On December 24 2011 10:45 Destructicon wrote: I think that res did ruin WoW, because with it the devs tried to move the game into a more tactical direction. You're supposed to CC, mana burn, burt DPS etc at the correct time to be good at WoW PVP now a days. The problem is, the game lost its visceral feel.
What the devs failed to consider is that, we don't care about tactical gameplay like that, we go into PVP to outright nuke the hell out of someone. I leveled a rogue and did some BGs at low level 40-60. I can honestly say that, playing PVP at lower levels like that is infinitely more fun than any PVP I had at high level. The visceral feel you get from nuking someone down in a heartbeat then moving on to your next target, so on and so forth is incredibly satisfying and irreplaceable.
And if you want to use the "its not fair to be killed in 2-3 seconds before you can act" argument, consider that it is exactly the same thing that happens in shooters, the guy with the quicker reflexes and better aim wins, the combat is fast paced and thrilling and it is why FPS games are some of the most beloved games on the planet. MMOs need to move more into that direction of providing fast, thrilling and entertaining PVP, not the huge 30-40 min arena games that you sometimes run into
Back in Vanilla Wow i do feel PvP was a lot more fun and action paced because every class was basically overpowered (I was gladiator for like 4 season in arena... it was fun but definely lacked something). I don't however get the appeal of low level PvP. Clicking 2 buttons because you're missing most of the skills and talents to give you more options is not fun for me oh and missing tons of HP aswell. Quicker reflexes do/did matter but not that much because of the GCD.
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On December 24 2011 10:56 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 10:21 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 10:10 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 24 2011 09:34 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 09:27 FrostFire626 wrote:On December 24 2011 09:15 Capped wrote:The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2. WoW pvp? a joke. I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_- Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that  Strange that you feel this way. WoW has the best skill and reaction based PvP that I know of, If by "skill and reaction based" you mean "Whomever has the highest Resilience wins based" then yeah, I agree! Comments like that are the mark of a bad PvPer. Anybody who thinks that resilience "ruined pvp" is a moron, and doesn't care about competitive pvp. But it did. Rewarding people who play the most instead of those whom are the most skilled is silly. Equal playing fields are the way to go in my opinion. You're entitled to disagree, but don't make such a broad statement as "if you disagree with me, you're stupid." ._. You know i just played WoW on a 10 day trial(scroll of ressurection) and in that time, playing a few hours a day, i got both my paladin and druid in full current season gear. It doesn't take time at all to get your resilience gear. People who think resilience is a bad thing are the people who don't care about COMPETITIVE pvp. Without resilience any form of competitive pvp would be entirely broken(and if you say its broken now, then it would make it 100x more broken).
Really? When i played it took like 2 months for good players to get the full arena set (current one) and like mirrion hours of battleground honor farm to get the previous set and offpieces.
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Anyone wanting "fps-speed and control" spacebattles in an MMORPG are downright stupid, im sorry :|
Argue all you like about SWTOR vs WoW vs Vanilla WoW, none of them are very competitive. A giggle yes, certain level of skill yes, fun hell yes, can you compete to see who is "the best" in all his gear and glory? of course. Comparable to SC2 level or Counter-strike competition? hmm..
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On December 24 2011 10:44 Detrimentally wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 10:29 Silidons wrote:On December 24 2011 10:21 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 10:10 PHILtheTANK wrote:On December 24 2011 09:34 Fruscainte wrote:On December 24 2011 09:27 FrostFire626 wrote:On December 24 2011 09:15 Capped wrote:The pvp is as "Competitive" as WoW's is, as in, it isnt. MMO pvp is never competitive unless you want to look into DAoC or L2. WoW pvp? a joke. I really enjoy SWTOR PvP its got a few things need tweaking but the entire game does. Look forward to hours of fun. I didnt enjoy WoW pvp at all -_- Also, people saying "we dont have target of target blah blah thats why pvp sucks" - they can add it very easily in later patches and i understand you all need mods and macro's to hold your hand through the entire game. Im sorry for that  Strange that you feel this way. WoW has the best skill and reaction based PvP that I know of, If by "skill and reaction based" you mean "Whomever has the highest Resilience wins based" then yeah, I agree! Comments like that are the mark of a bad PvPer. Anybody who thinks that resilience "ruined pvp" is a moron, and doesn't care about competitive pvp. But it did. Rewarding people who play the most instead of those whom are the most skilled is silly. Equal playing fields are the way to go in my opinion. You're entitled to disagree, but don't make such a broad statement as "if you disagree with me, you're stupid." ._. Res did infact ruin WoW PvP, and it made the game even easier than it was before. Nothing is "hard" in WoW anymore. You're right. My shield slams in vanilla that 1 shotted people were good for competitive PvP...
So Resilience was clearly the answer, not nerfing Shield Slam in PvP.
Resilience is a very lazy solution to the problem of balance. Instead of properly balancing their game, they decided to just add in another stat that made PvP what it is today. Sure, it worked -- to an extent -- however, it was extremely lazy and reckless in my opinion. I don't think it's a good precedent to set of "We can't/don't want to balance our game so we'll just add a Resilience-esque stat"
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can someone who played SWG compare the PvP to that of SWTOR? I enjoyed SWG PvP (pre NGE) and before I buy this i want to know im not buying some game thats only good for PvE.
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