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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
On May 29 2008 11:34 Krohm wrote:
I need to ask a few "noob" questions, I just played a game today I think I should of won. But my opponent said I can't do it.
#1. Can you group block creatures? (I lost the game because of this, he said you can't group block creatures... Which makes no sense. Because of the trample ability on some cards. Or can you only group block creatures with trample?)
#2. Can you play creature abilities at any time? (In one of my decks I use these merfolk cards, that have the ability T; Turn target land into an island. I tried to do this during his turn, and he said you can't do that. Now I'm positive you can, since there are wizard cards that have T; Counter target spell unless its caster pays 1.)
Now I'm almost positive you can do both.
1: Yes, you can groupblock creatures. Your opponent will decide who gets the damage though. There's no exception to this rule, unless the card says something like 'can only be blocked by 1 creature'.
2: You can play creature abilities at any time, withing some limits. 1: The abilities that require your creature to tap can only be played if it was under your control when the turn started (summoning sickness) and 2: Sometimes the ability says 'play as a sorcery' which can only be used during your own main phases.
So if your merfolk didn't have summoning sickness you could have turned his land into an island. BUT, mana-abilities will always be 'faster' than normal abilities, including tapping lands for mana. What this means is, for example, you'd use the ability on a mountain your opponent controls, and in reaction to this he can tap it for red mana before it turns into an island. You could even try to respond to him trying to tap his mountain for red mana, by turning it into an island, but he'd still get his red mana because mana-producing abilities get priority over everything else.
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On May 29 2008 20:32 Stegosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2008 11:34 Krohm wrote:
I need to ask a few "noob" questions, I just played a game today I think I should of won. But my opponent said I can't do it.
#1. Can you group block creatures? (I lost the game because of this, he said you can't group block creatures... Which makes no sense. Because of the trample ability on some cards. Or can you only group block creatures with trample?)
#2. Can you play creature abilities at any time? (In one of my decks I use these merfolk cards, that have the ability T; Turn target land into an island. I tried to do this during his turn, and he said you can't do that. Now I'm positive you can, since there are wizard cards that have T; Counter target spell unless its caster pays 1.)
Now I'm almost positive you can do both. 1: Yes, you can groupblock creatures. Your opponent will decide who gets the damage though. There's no exception to this rule, unless the card says something like 'can only be blocked by 1 creature'. 2: You can play creature abilities at any time, withing some limits. 1: The abilities that require your creature to tap can only be played if it was under your control when the turn started (summoning sickness) and 2: Sometimes the ability says 'play as a sorcery' which can only be used during your own main phases. So if your merfolk didn't have summoning sickness you could have turned his land into an island. BUT, mana-abilities will always be 'faster' than normal abilities, including tapping lands for mana. What this means is, for example, you'd use the ability on a mountain your opponent controls, and in reaction to this he can tap it for red mana before it turns into an island. You could even try to respond to him trying to tap his mountain for red mana, by turning it into an island, but he'd still get his red mana because mana-producing abilities get priority over everything else.
Well that's completely ridiculous that land takes priority. Hence "stalling" cards, which can let you tap a persons land. What would be the point of those cards then? This is also applied to many other things, such as destroying lands with a card. Does that mean, they can tap them and use them for mana before they're destroyed? I really don't think that's right.
Oh another thing, can tokens be sacrificed for a specific card that would require a sacrifice?
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
On May 29 2008 20:58 Krohm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2008 20:32 Stegosaur wrote:On May 29 2008 11:34 Krohm wrote:
I need to ask a few "noob" questions, I just played a game today I think I should of won. But my opponent said I can't do it.
#1. Can you group block creatures? (I lost the game because of this, he said you can't group block creatures... Which makes no sense. Because of the trample ability on some cards. Or can you only group block creatures with trample?)
#2. Can you play creature abilities at any time? (In one of my decks I use these merfolk cards, that have the ability T; Turn target land into an island. I tried to do this during his turn, and he said you can't do that. Now I'm positive you can, since there are wizard cards that have T; Counter target spell unless its caster pays 1.)
Now I'm almost positive you can do both. 1: Yes, you can groupblock creatures. Your opponent will decide who gets the damage though. There's no exception to this rule, unless the card says something like 'can only be blocked by 1 creature'. 2: You can play creature abilities at any time, withing some limits. 1: The abilities that require your creature to tap can only be played if it was under your control when the turn started (summoning sickness) and 2: Sometimes the ability says 'play as a sorcery' which can only be used during your own main phases. So if your merfolk didn't have summoning sickness you could have turned his land into an island. BUT, mana-abilities will always be 'faster' than normal abilities, including tapping lands for mana. What this means is, for example, you'd use the ability on a mountain your opponent controls, and in reaction to this he can tap it for red mana before it turns into an island. You could even try to respond to him trying to tap his mountain for red mana, by turning it into an island, but he'd still get his red mana because mana-producing abilities get priority over everything else. Well that's completely ridiculous that land takes priority. Hence "stalling" cards, which can let you tap a persons land. What would be the point of those cards then? This is also applied to many other things, such as destroying lands with a card. Does that mean, they can tap them and use them for mana before they're destroyed? I really don't think that's right. Oh another thing, can tokens be sacrificed for a specific card that would require a sacrifice?
Yes, token creatures count as creatures as well. If you'd use a serpent generator to make a 1/1 artifact creature token you could sacrifice the token for something that required an artifact to be sacrificed as well.
About the stalling cards and responding to lands, you should use the card during upkeeps or attackphases. If I tap my Gaea's Cradle for mana, you can't respond to it by quickly tapping it with your icy manipulator, but you *can* tap it during my upkeep. I could still tap it for mana in response, but I would get manaburn at the end of my upkeep phase since I probably wouldn't have anything to spend it on.
So yes, you're supposed to tap lands in advance, if you were to tap lands.
Edit: Yes, you can also tap them in response to destroy effects to get one last mana out of them. Then again, you can use creature abilities in response to effects that kill them as well, just like enchantments, artifacts, anything that can be played on instant speed.
Better yet: If I had an avatar of woe for example, my opponent plays a swords to plowshares on it, killing it off. I could tap it in response, and get a creature kill, before it would die. My opponent could respond to the effect of my avatar of woe with another swords to plowshares, and it would die, but it would still get its kill, because I already payed the activation cost and the effect already got in its place on the stack, which is then resolved from the last played effect to the first.
It would look something like this:
---top---
Swords to Plowshares nr 2 -> Destroys my avatar of woe
Avatar of Woe effect -> Destroys a creature of my choice, even though the avatar is gone
Swords to Plowshares nr 1 -> Does nothing due to lack of target and goes to GY
---bottom---
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On May 30 2008 02:16 Stegosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2008 20:58 Krohm wrote:On May 29 2008 20:32 Stegosaur wrote:On May 29 2008 11:34 Krohm wrote:
I need to ask a few "noob" questions, I just played a game today I think I should of won. But my opponent said I can't do it.
#1. Can you group block creatures? (I lost the game because of this, he said you can't group block creatures... Which makes no sense. Because of the trample ability on some cards. Or can you only group block creatures with trample?)
#2. Can you play creature abilities at any time? (In one of my decks I use these merfolk cards, that have the ability T; Turn target land into an island. I tried to do this during his turn, and he said you can't do that. Now I'm positive you can, since there are wizard cards that have T; Counter target spell unless its caster pays 1.)
Now I'm almost positive you can do both. 1: Yes, you can groupblock creatures. Your opponent will decide who gets the damage though. There's no exception to this rule, unless the card says something like 'can only be blocked by 1 creature'. 2: You can play creature abilities at any time, withing some limits. 1: The abilities that require your creature to tap can only be played if it was under your control when the turn started (summoning sickness) and 2: Sometimes the ability says 'play as a sorcery' which can only be used during your own main phases. So if your merfolk didn't have summoning sickness you could have turned his land into an island. BUT, mana-abilities will always be 'faster' than normal abilities, including tapping lands for mana. What this means is, for example, you'd use the ability on a mountain your opponent controls, and in reaction to this he can tap it for red mana before it turns into an island. You could even try to respond to him trying to tap his mountain for red mana, by turning it into an island, but he'd still get his red mana because mana-producing abilities get priority over everything else. Well that's completely ridiculous that land takes priority. Hence "stalling" cards, which can let you tap a persons land. What would be the point of those cards then? This is also applied to many other things, such as destroying lands with a card. Does that mean, they can tap them and use them for mana before they're destroyed? I really don't think that's right. Oh another thing, can tokens be sacrificed for a specific card that would require a sacrifice? Yes, token creatures count as creatures as well. If you'd use a serpent generator to make a 1/1 artifact creature token you could sacrifice the token for something that required an artifact to be sacrificed as well. About the stalling cards and responding to lands, you should use the card during upkeeps or attackphases. If I tap my Gaea's Cradle for mana, you can't respond to it by quickly tapping it with your icy manipulator, but you *can* tap it during my upkeep. I could still tap it for mana in response, but I would get manaburn at the end of my upkeep phase since I probably wouldn't have anything to spend it on. So yes, you're supposed to tap lands in advance, if you were to tap lands. Edit: Yes, you can also tap them in response to destroy effects to get one last mana out of them. Then again, you can use creature abilities in response to effects that kill them as well, just like enchantments, artifacts, anything that can be played on instant speed. Better yet: If I had an avatar of woe for example, my opponent plays a swords to plowshares on it, killing it off. I could tap it in response, and get a creature kill, before it would die. My opponent could respond to the effect of my avatar of woe with another swords to plowshares, and it would die, but it would still get its kill, because I already payed the activation cost and the effect already got in its place on the stack, which is then resolved from the last played effect to the first. It would look something like this: ---top--- Swords to Plowshares nr 2 -> Destroys my avatar of woe Avatar of Woe effect -> Destroys a creature of my choice, even though the avatar is gone Swords to Plowshares nr 1 -> Does nothing due to lack of target and goes to GY ---bottom---
Actually you wouldn't manaburn from the cradle mana until the end of your draw phase
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If I use Gorilla Shamans ability to kill a chrome mox, I only pay one right?
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Another MTG question.
Do you lose the game, Example; if there is 4 howling mines in play. But you only have 1-4 cards to draw? I mean, this is something I'm not sure about. Because you would be drawing your initial 1 card. Which is required for you to not lose the game.
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Then you lose when you can't draw the next turn.
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Well Technically I couldn't of died, the game was stale mated pretty much. I have 4 Serras Avatars in my deck, so when ever I discard it goes back into my library, I could of kept doing that, until eventually he out grinded himself because of the 4 howling mines in play. I didn't bother arguing it though, because I wasn't sure.
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As long as you can draw, you are in the game.
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On May 29 2008 01:26 Spinfusor wrote:
I assume you're talking about reanimator decks.
Also, turn 2/3 average goldfishes are pretty unlikely. Under the currect rules: Flash is illegal, storm combo (except maybe Empty the Warrens which I quit long before it was popular) is unplayable w/o moxen, Ichorid is illegal, Tyrant is illegal, Bomberman is better with control etc. Only Dragon/FCG can really pull it off imo, but they are both easily hated out.
Every non-combo deck in vintage needs disruption (be it Force of Will, Duress, Sphere of Resistance or whatever suits your deck). Even the turn 2/3 combo deck Flash tends to have a full complement of Force of Wills (though admittedly they are more to protect the combo rather than stop another from going off).
I think this is intended to be a fun tournament where everyone can do their thing. I doubt many people will be packing turn 1/2 disruption, so the 'glass cannon' decks are just going to get a free ride. Two decks in legacy that have pretty reliable turn 2 goldfishes that I can think of are belcher and draw 4.
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the tournament is the same day as M:tG regionals
unfortunate coincidence...
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On May 30 2008 13:14 Wonders wrote:I think this is intended to be a fun tournament where everyone can do their thing. I doubt many people will be packing turn 1/2 disruption, so the 'glass cannon' decks are just going to get a free ride. Two decks in legacy that have pretty reliable turn 2 goldfishes that I can think of are belcher and draw 4.
But Lotus Petal, LED etc. are unrestricted in Legacy. I've never seen a decent belcher list with more than 2 lands, so I seriously doubt that without solomoxen and restricted petal/LED/other mox belcher is viable. But then again, I don't play Legacy, so who knows? Maybe SSG pushes it over.
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token creature goes to the graveyard ?
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token creatures cease to be when they die. They don't go to the graveyard or the RFG-zone, they simple get removed.
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On May 30 2008 20:40 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
token creatures cease to be when they die. They don't go to the graveyard or the RFG-zone, they simple get removed.
Incorrect, they hit the graveyard for any abilities that them going to the graveyard would trigger, and THEN they cease to exist.
For example, a dead token would trigger Fecundity.
Edit:
Specific rules regarding this.
# 216.3 - A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist. This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones sets off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.) [CompRules 2007/02/01]
# 216.4 - A token that has left play can't come back into play. If such a token would return to play, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based effects are checked. [CompRules 2007/02/01]
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On May 31 2008 00:06 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2008 20:40 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
token creatures cease to be when they die. They don't go to the graveyard or the RFG-zone, they simple get removed. Incorrect, they hit the graveyard for any abilities that them going to the graveyard would trigger, and THEN they cease to exist. For example, a dead token would trigger Fecundity. Edit: Specific rules regarding this. # 216.3 - A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist. This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones sets off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.) [CompRules 2007/02/01] # 216.4 - A token that has left play can't come back into play. If such a token would return to play, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based effects are checked. [CompRules 2007/02/01]
And that is how I love (at least previously) M:TG. The possibilities of card interaction is near limitless.
Question: Can there be "obs" in MWS games?
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On May 30 2008 02:16 Stegosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2008 20:58 Krohm wrote:On May 29 2008 20:32 Stegosaur wrote:On May 29 2008 11:34 Krohm wrote:
I need to ask a few "noob" questions, I just played a game today I think I should of won. But my opponent said I can't do it.
#1. Can you group block creatures? (I lost the game because of this, he said you can't group block creatures... Which makes no sense. Because of the trample ability on some cards. Or can you only group block creatures with trample?)
#2. Can you play creature abilities at any time? (In one of my decks I use these merfolk cards, that have the ability T; Turn target land into an island. I tried to do this during his turn, and he said you can't do that. Now I'm positive you can, since there are wizard cards that have T; Counter target spell unless its caster pays 1.)
Now I'm almost positive you can do both. 1: Yes, you can groupblock creatures. Your opponent will decide who gets the damage though. There's no exception to this rule, unless the card says something like 'can only be blocked by 1 creature'. 2: You can play creature abilities at any time, withing some limits. 1: The abilities that require your creature to tap can only be played if it was under your control when the turn started (summoning sickness) and 2: Sometimes the ability says 'play as a sorcery' which can only be used during your own main phases. So if your merfolk didn't have summoning sickness you could have turned his land into an island. BUT, mana-abilities will always be 'faster' than normal abilities, including tapping lands for mana. What this means is, for example, you'd use the ability on a mountain your opponent controls, and in reaction to this he can tap it for red mana before it turns into an island. You could even try to respond to him trying to tap his mountain for red mana, by turning it into an island, but he'd still get his red mana because mana-producing abilities get priority over everything else. Well that's completely ridiculous that land takes priority. Hence "stalling" cards, which can let you tap a persons land. What would be the point of those cards then? This is also applied to many other things, such as destroying lands with a card. Does that mean, they can tap them and use them for mana before they're destroyed? I really don't think that's right. Oh another thing, can tokens be sacrificed for a specific card that would require a sacrifice? Yes, token creatures count as creatures as well. If you'd use a serpent generator to make a 1/1 artifact creature token you could sacrifice the token for something that required an artifact to be sacrificed as well. About the stalling cards and responding to lands, you should use the card during upkeeps or attackphases. If I tap my Gaea's Cradle for mana, you can't respond to it by quickly tapping it with your icy manipulator, but you *can* tap it during my upkeep. I could still tap it for mana in response, but I would get manaburn at the end of my upkeep phase since I probably wouldn't have anything to spend it on. So yes, you're supposed to tap lands in advance, if you were to tap lands. Edit: Yes, you can also tap them in response to destroy effects to get one last mana out of them. Then again, you can use creature abilities in response to effects that kill them as well, just like enchantments, artifacts, anything that can be played on instant speed. Better yet: If I had an avatar of woe for example, my opponent plays a swords to plowshares on it, killing it off. I could tap it in response, and get a creature kill, before it would die. My opponent could respond to the effect of my avatar of woe with another swords to plowshares, and it would die, but it would still get its kill, because I already payed the activation cost and the effect already got in its place on the stack, which is then resolved from the last played effect to the first. It would look something like this: ---top--- Swords to Plowshares nr 2 -> Destroys my avatar of woe Avatar of Woe effect -> Destroys a creature of my choice, even though the avatar is gone Swords to Plowshares nr 1 -> Does nothing due to lack of target and goes to GY ---bottom---
wait that doesn't seem right somehow, like with morphling for instance, when would i use my untargetable nonesense, if someone lightning bolts a morphling, and i pay for the untargetable nonesense in response, what happens?
do i have to play it in response to them tapping for mana? like, they tap 3 lands, and i say in response to you tapping ur lands i make my morphling untargetable?
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On May 31 2008 00:41 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2008 02:16 Stegosaur wrote:On May 29 2008 20:58 Krohm wrote:On May 29 2008 20:32 Stegosaur wrote:On May 29 2008 11:34 Krohm wrote:
I need to ask a few "noob" questions, I just played a game today I think I should of won. But my opponent said I can't do it.
#1. Can you group block creatures? (I lost the game because of this, he said you can't group block creatures... Which makes no sense. Because of the trample ability on some cards. Or can you only group block creatures with trample?)
#2. Can you play creature abilities at any time? (In one of my decks I use these merfolk cards, that have the ability T; Turn target land into an island. I tried to do this during his turn, and he said you can't do that. Now I'm positive you can, since there are wizard cards that have T; Counter target spell unless its caster pays 1.)
Now I'm almost positive you can do both. 1: Yes, you can groupblock creatures. Your opponent will decide who gets the damage though. There's no exception to this rule, unless the card says something like 'can only be blocked by 1 creature'. 2: You can play creature abilities at any time, withing some limits. 1: The abilities that require your creature to tap can only be played if it was under your control when the turn started (summoning sickness) and 2: Sometimes the ability says 'play as a sorcery' which can only be used during your own main phases. So if your merfolk didn't have summoning sickness you could have turned his land into an island. BUT, mana-abilities will always be 'faster' than normal abilities, including tapping lands for mana. What this means is, for example, you'd use the ability on a mountain your opponent controls, and in reaction to this he can tap it for red mana before it turns into an island. You could even try to respond to him trying to tap his mountain for red mana, by turning it into an island, but he'd still get his red mana because mana-producing abilities get priority over everything else. Well that's completely ridiculous that land takes priority. Hence "stalling" cards, which can let you tap a persons land. What would be the point of those cards then? This is also applied to many other things, such as destroying lands with a card. Does that mean, they can tap them and use them for mana before they're destroyed? I really don't think that's right. Oh another thing, can tokens be sacrificed for a specific card that would require a sacrifice? Yes, token creatures count as creatures as well. If you'd use a serpent generator to make a 1/1 artifact creature token you could sacrifice the token for something that required an artifact to be sacrificed as well. About the stalling cards and responding to lands, you should use the card during upkeeps or attackphases. If I tap my Gaea's Cradle for mana, you can't respond to it by quickly tapping it with your icy manipulator, but you *can* tap it during my upkeep. I could still tap it for mana in response, but I would get manaburn at the end of my upkeep phase since I probably wouldn't have anything to spend it on. So yes, you're supposed to tap lands in advance, if you were to tap lands. Edit: Yes, you can also tap them in response to destroy effects to get one last mana out of them. Then again, you can use creature abilities in response to effects that kill them as well, just like enchantments, artifacts, anything that can be played on instant speed. Better yet: If I had an avatar of woe for example, my opponent plays a swords to plowshares on it, killing it off. I could tap it in response, and get a creature kill, before it would die. My opponent could respond to the effect of my avatar of woe with another swords to plowshares, and it would die, but it would still get its kill, because I already payed the activation cost and the effect already got in its place on the stack, which is then resolved from the last played effect to the first. It would look something like this: ---top--- Swords to Plowshares nr 2 -> Destroys my avatar of woe Avatar of Woe effect -> Destroys a creature of my choice, even though the avatar is gone Swords to Plowshares nr 1 -> Does nothing due to lack of target and goes to GY ---bottom--- wait that doesn't seem right somehow, like with morphling for instance, when would i use my untargetable nonesense, if someone lightning bolts a morphling, and i pay for the untargetable nonesense in response, what happens? do i have to play it in response to them tapping for mana? like, they tap 3 lands, and i say in response to you tapping ur lands i make my morphling untargetable?
This would look like this on the stack:
Morphling effect resolves -> it is untargettable by spells and effects till end of turn
Lightning bolt resolves -> original target (morphling) is now invalid. Either you find another target or it just fizzles if there are no more creatures.
I just dont remember if your forced to target your own creature if your opponent does not have any other target-able creature. Or if you can decide that the spell should just fizzle.
You respond to the effect not on the the tapping of the lands. Remember that its Last In-First Out when resolving spells on the stack.
Afaik, this is what will happen. Any current players more knowledgeable please point out if im wrong.
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On May 31 2008 00:41 Caller wrote:
wait that doesn't seem right somehow, like with morphling for instance, when would i use my untargetable nonesense, if someone lightning bolts a morphling, and i pay for the untargetable nonesense in response, what happens?
do i have to play it in response to them tapping for mana? like, they tap 3 lands, and i say in response to you tapping ur lands i make my morphling untargetable?
1. You can't respond to people tapping lands for mana. You can only respond after the spell/ability they want to cast has been played.
2. For your morphling example:
Your opponent lightning bolts your morphling!
In response you play the untargetable ability.
Spells and abilities in magic work on a first in, last out basis. Once all the spells/abilities have been played, the 'stack' resolves. So in the above example.
Your untargetable ability resolves first because it is the last spell/ability cast.
The lightning bolt resolves. However it now has an illegal target and fizzles.
Another example:
Your opponent lightning bolts your morphling!
You play the untargetable ability in response
Your opponent lightning bolts the morphling again.
You're out of mana and can't play the ability, so you have to let the stack resolve.
The lightning bolt was the last spell cast so it resolves first. The morphling receives 3 damage and hits the graveyard before the untargetable ability resolves. It dies.
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EPT
