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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Just played another clan game. It was a very close game throughout and the score is always almost tied whole way through untill the end. Some nice gangs by both teams.
http://www.dota-allstars.com/replay/35170/index.html
+ Show Spoiler +The reason I am linking this replay is because we lost the game. We let silencer farm. This was a huge mistake. We did not gang him enough. And as someone said above, any good team will gang him. Also we had a relatively new player on the team playing Viper. None the less he played well, I wouldn't have chosen the items he made.
Game mode - apxl
Sentinel Bans - QoP, Beastmaster, Zeus
Scourge Bans - Earthshaker, NA, Magnus
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ES Ban...el o el, especially with that late Mag ban...
No Dagger on the SK especially with a Silencer and some other questionable stuff.
Not a good game to watch, that was the equivalent of an organized pub.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
He did have a dagger. The allstars item inventory is fked. Dont look at item list on all stars. its never correct.
ES Ban...el o el, especially with that late Mag ban...
What do you mean?
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Haven't watched it yet, but I think I can explain that one, although I don't know pick order.
Mag is a much more common ban nowadays, and everything but ES in the removes points to the direction that both teams are skilled at playing the current gank+jungle style of dota.
There's really no reason to ban Earthshaker FIRST when there are heroes like silencer, lesh, lina, tiny, PotM, their 2nd and 3rd removes BM+NA. Don't really see the logic in immediately banning Tauren first even if they got first remove with QoP. I'd actually like to know why you guys removed Tauren first. Not to be mean or anything, but I laughed and definitely would laugh with my teammates if the other team removed tauren with their first remove.
Another reason that points to the replay to not being ' unchobo ' are the lineups. Seems like they just overran you in the end with aoe with global silence keeping your team from initiating successfully. You guys had a sick lineup compared to theirs but I don't know why you didn't include a warlock in there. Also, idk why THEY didn't take warlock instead of axe.
Anyway, just from the link it looks like it wasn't a really exciting/interesting/high-level game but maybe when I watch it I'll be proved wrong.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Well im just trying to learn. That's why I post here.
I think the reason we banned Earthshaker was becuase the first game we played, he was a major pain in the arse. Bans is something I would love to know more about and what way to do them. I cannot find any sort of "guide" that explains what way to ban heroes. Im kicking myself, because we were going to ban Silencer. Kind of forgot about him 
Anyway I will remove the "unchobo" bit.
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Just got done watching it and I have to say my pre-watching analysis seemed right for the most part.
Firstly, your centaur did a MASSIVE fuck up by pulling the first creep wave. I was shaking my head watching that. Let me explain: Not only did viper not share in any of the xp, AND centaur got return damage first while laning [ wtf? I expected jungle ] but for the next 3 waves you gave up the natural creep advantage you have at top lane. You might as well have been playing mid lane up on their ramp. Because of this mess up, sentinel got the first kill in that lane, and continued to capitalize there with more and more kills.
Next, I noticed you had a strong lane bot, questionable as to why you put sk and lina bot because neither can tower dive but still a good lane. You did kill silencer once, but you definitely nailed it on the head in your earlier post when you said you didn't gank him enough. As a lane combo you only killed silencer once. He should've been unable to farm completely once you two hit level 3. Granted, it's not all your fault because lina and sk were placed bot but still he should've been kept down.
Also, in my other post I mentioned neither team took up warlock. Seeing the actual lane assignments I kinda shook my head at lesh solo mid. While lesh solo mid is DEFINITELY viable, knowing that warlock was available in the pool made me sad =(
As for the tauren thing....yeah I still don't know why he was removed.
A medium level replay at best I'd say with two teams trying to copy upper level play but I have to say your team has the potential to improve.
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I see I just posted after you X_x
anyway, I'll post my advice on bans tomorrow since I got two tests to study for right now haha.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Hey thanks for that. I forgot about that start!
I was actually screaming at Cent when he did that on vent. was like "WHAT THE FK ARE U DOING?" rofl. He was like. "Oops just trying something.. didnt work lol"
We really are still only learning clan games at the moment. It isn't our best players in that. Just with the point about silencer by a previous poster, i thought it was fitting to show that he is right. You must gang silencer lots.
But it was actually nice that you watched it and gave feedback. It helps alot. Thanks.
What do you mean by Tower Dive? as in kill hero when close to tower? In regards to removing Tauren, when do you think Tauren should be removed? When your team is AoE based?
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ack1027 where do you play? i want to play w good TLers 
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You should probably only remove tauren when you're doing a push strat, and that generally gives it away.
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is awesome32269 Posts
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BLY NEED MORE RECENT REPS
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calm down fanboys, I shall upload some dagon qops owning noobies who don't know to lasthit reps soon
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On March 28 2008 17:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:
calm down fanboys, I shall upload some dagon qops owning noobies who don't know to lasthit reps soon
What about triple skadi???
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i dont think i can do it unless i go straight to skadi, guinsoos so expensive nowadays
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im gonna try battle fury qop today
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On March 28 2008 12:14 Chewits wrote:
Hey thanks for that. I forgot about that start!
I was actually screaming at Cent when he did that on vent. was like "WHAT THE FK ARE U DOING?" rofl. He was like. "Oops just trying something.. didnt work lol"
We really are still only learning clan games at the moment. It isn't our best players in that. Just with the point about silencer by a previous poster, i thought it was fitting to show that he is right. You must gang silencer lots.
But it was actually nice that you watched it and gave feedback. It helps alot. Thanks.
What do you mean by Tower Dive? as in kill hero when close to tower? In regards to removing Tauren, when do you think Tauren should be removed? When your team is AoE based?
Tower diving is when you ignore the tower, whether it's hitting you or not to finish or start a gank/kill. This is the overpower tactic to tower huggers. If you have enough stuns like lina sand king you will be able to kill most heroes without them hitting you at all and little chance of getting away. Thing is, I was citing bottom lane as bad for your particular combo because as a strength hero sand king does not have much health at all, his str gain is bad, and lina is well....an int hero lol. This combo is much more fit to play sentinel bot and scourge top or middle.
As for tauren, BigBlind nailed it on the head. You should never have to actually remove tauren, no matter how much you think you're getting owned. I can see maybe 5% of games you having to remove him because your lineup doesn't have a strong bkb carry type hero and tauren is by far the best defensive hero in the game, as well as an awesome initiate with blink.
Your team is aoe based when the majority of your spells and ults are aoe. I called the team you played against an aoe team simply because they had lich[chain and nova], levi[anchor and ravage], axe[call and helix], PotM[starfall] If you think about their team battles it would most likely be levi to ravage, PotM to starfall creeps, Lich to chain frost and nova, and axe either beginning with levi or ending with pickoffs and culling blade. This is all without even considering silencer. Your lineup simply had no answer for team fights like that. Two[lesh/lina] MAYBE 3 with sk stuns and you're done pretty much. The one drawback of centaur is that nobody is actually forced to hit him, and therefore his return damage doesn't have full effect and if he doesn't have a lot of damage he isn't a threat to the other team and they can pick your other weaker heroes.
As for bans:
Banning and picking heroes is a lot easier than you think, you just have to follow some guidelines and remember that although it's relatively easy you can lose the game before it even starts due to your picks.
A lot of teams just like to ban heroes they struggle with. Although this works sometimes, it's just as likely that you're gonna run into another hero you struggle with that the other team plays and you will simply just not have enough [3] removes to eliminate all the heroes you do bad against.
You have to consider heroes that are really good and you AREN'T going to be using. The priority bans are these heroes. Consider the ' best ' heroes in the game right now, and the ones you won't be using that the other team PROBABLY will choose you should remove. This is .48b
Examples: Zeus, PotM, Mag, BB, BM, QoP, Lesh/Lina, Sand King, Warlock, Terroblade, Luna, Void, Spec.
You also have to consider who your team is going to play. You should go into games having a rough idea of who everyone wants to play. In addition, recognize these following playstyles:
Right now the two prominent playstyles are 2-1-2 [2 duals and 1 solo] or 1-1-1-2[2 solos 1 jungle 1 dual ]
There have been other formations like tri-lanes and roaming setups in the past but you should pretty much focus on the two most popular mentioned above. If you're going to play a jungle lineup, how confident in your two solos and your dual lane are you to not allow your jungle to get fucked up. ALSO how confident are you that if they decide to jungle, theirs wont beat yours?
I'm giving a lot of things to think about, but really you shouldn't put TOO much thought into it. A lot of the time, you allow the other team to give you the impression of what kind of lane they will use.
My team for example:
We liked to remove warlock/qop, silencer, bb in that order almost every single game when we first started out because we simply had no way to deal with silencer's ult and bb late game. Depending on if we had first pick or not we would remove warlock/qop. Thing is, this turned out badly because we ended up getting owned if we weren't able to pick up PotM on our second pick. So we tried replacing removing PotM with Silencer. That didn't work out either. We had to play OUR game and not accommodate the other team.
Unless you have a push or strange strat that you've been practicing it is pretty easy in my opinion to know who to remove. If you're NOT playing the ' best ' heroes right now then remove those. If you have first pick, leave the best hero possible in the pool so they are hopefully forced to remove him essentially half wasting one of their bans. If you're playing a push or strange strat it's always best to pick second. If you're playing straight up games it's normally better to pick first.
Here are priority bans in my opinion [ consider if you're playing any of these heroes ]:
1st tier: Zeus, PotM, BM, Mag, QoP, Warlock, BB, Sand King
2nd tier: Lesh, Lina, Luna, Terrorblade
3rd tier: Tiny, Sven, Void, Spec, Centaur
This isn't a concrete list but it's just what I feel at this point are the valuable heroes. I did not include silencer and viper on purpose simply because these heroes are past the days of solo ownage carry glory. Silencer is ganked much too easily, but if he plays in a dual lane he serves almost no purpose since it's harder to farm and he has no stun and play value to your partner. Viper is useable, but he is a hero who gets progressively worse as the game goes on. Even if you manage to farm a radiance at 16 minutes, he will get demolished by nukes. If you get a hood, it's decent at best because it provides no additional health and you still do no damage. His attack animation and orbwalk slow is what makes him a still viable hero in some games.
Lastly, have some quick counters in mind to pick against teams who play really weird lineups. Like if you see a chen picked up, immediately you should pick up a thd or a pugna to counter the creeps and the spells you KNOW chen has to cast to be effective. On the other hand, if the other team picks up THD and Pugna you should pick tauren and potm, two great defensive heroes.
So you have an idea, here are some great dual lanes. For the most part your picks should focus on your dual lanes, they are very important because if your dual lanes succeed they can get xp/gold advantage, ability to roam for runes and gank while being ahead and placing the first wards. Your solo player, if he thinks he's hot shit he should stfu because he should be able to play ANY solo hero and there are so many of those. Fiend, Silencer, Razor, Tinker, Bane, Viper, Necro, etc are all picks that are almost never removed but can be played in a solo role, among others.
Lina/Lesh + Sven/Ck/SK/Skel King/Tiny/Tauren/NA
PotM + Tauren
Tauren + KotL
Pudge + Viper
Viper + THD
THD + Pudge
SP/Warlock + Centaur to brute strength over dual stunners or heroes that must kill with 1 spell like jugg. Used if your centaur can't jungle.
Lineups that can include 2 or all of the following 3 to create the ' global strategy '
Zeus, Furion, Spec.
First used by Team Q or T_T I believe and it was very successful. Not many people have it on their mind when picking and it's a great strategy if you know how to use it. Your globals will pick off almost anyone at half hp or less, and furion and spec's ult alone will stop almost any push the team tries on your base mid game or before. Also gives you the option of a jungle hero in furion if you get good picks and are able to run for example solo zeus, solo x hero, warlock/sp + Spec [ note you have 1 to no stuns ]
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On March 08 2008 05:16 Heen wrote:Pudge CarryMe in KOR IH in USWest Skill level is considerably higher than tl ih but the play style is similar. So it's like an upgraded version of tl dota.
this rep is insane. pudge goes around brutally raping people from minute 2. definitely helped me to understand what constitutes a good player/team (hint: it's not farming!).
i think i finally understand what ryugie has been bitching about all this time. haha
i assume y'all used vent to communicate ganks? it seems like it'd be pretty hard to organize that shit using in-game chat/pings.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Wow ack. Thanks very much for that. That was really helpful and I have learned some insightful information here. Good post!
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EPT
