On August 17 2008 06:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I used to think Lich is a premium pick in 6.51 but now I hate the fact that he farms worse than Lina. No more Lich as support for me.

what exactly are you farming? he's a more offensive babysit than warlock and then swaps over to ward bitching the rest of the game, maybe a meka if the game permits...

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

August 16 2008 21:45 GMT

#765

Farming for just basic items. I mean if a support is babysitting he won't really lasthit early game either way and still has to turn crow and buy wards so when a lane opens up he has to be as efficient as possible. WL has really nice attack animation, SP has nuke and decent attack animation. Worse supporters THD, Lina, TS all have nice nukes. Only Lich has a bad attack animation and no true aoe nuke. I often find myself bootless for 15min because I simply can't farm anything while having to do all the other support stuff. With that said yes I still think Lich is much better than Lina both in aoe and laning.

BlueRoyaL

United States2493 Posts

August 16 2008 21:55 GMT

#766

i dont think lich has a bad attack animation, its fine for me i think. you just have to get used to it. and level 6 chain? gg. easy denies with your spell + constant mana to harass with your nuke

Zelniq

United States7166 Posts

August 16 2008 23:12 GMT

#767

lich is so good, doesnt matter that he farms worse

Alventenie

United States2147 Posts

August 16 2008 23:15 GMT

#768

Lich is very easy to last hit with, he has a huge damage range once you stop baby sitting, so i dont know what you are talking about bly =P. Also, lich is very good at team fights, and counter ganking once he is 6 (ganking a lich with chain is guaranteed to lose a hero) making the hero he is baby sitting is relatively safe for a while after lich hits 6.

I haven't ever had a problem with lich last hitting in dual or solo lane, so i dunno what you are complaining about. I do however prefer lesh last hitting over lich, mostly because im so used to lesh since i play him in CW's alot.

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

August 17 2008 03:02 GMT

#769

I guess maybe it's cuz I've been sucking with Lich and I watched Bogdan's Lich vs xcn. I still pick Lich very often as support/aoe I just try to get other people to use him.

Also, midas is 1900, 100 sec cooldown, so if you get it by 10min and assuming you yield an average of 200 gold per use then you'd only have 500 more gold by 30min than if you didn't get it. It seems though it's a lot more though from experience. I've thinking about this since I've been getting midas on leoric almost every game.

Judicator

United States7270 Posts

August 17 2008 16:54 GMT

#770

Uh theres actually 2 benchmarks for Midas, one is how fast you got it, and the second is how fast you can make up the gold lost from going Midas; most players forget the latter and kind of just fall off in terms of gold income

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

August 17 2008 19:50 GMT

#771

how much do you get for a ranged creep compared to a level 4 or 5 neutral

Judicator

United States7270 Posts

August 17 2008 22:51 GMT

#772

On August 18 2008 04:50 zulu_nation8 wrote:
how much do you get for a ranged creep compared to a level 4 or 5 neutral

how much gold lost in the jungle when there's a free lane open

Ack1027

United States7873 Posts

August 17 2008 22:54 GMT

#773

On August 18 2008 04:50 zulu_nation8 wrote:
how much do you get for a ranged creep compared to a level 4 or 5 neutral

but still:

On August 18 2008 07:51 Judicator wrote:

Show nested quote +

how much gold lost in the jungle when there's a free lane open

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

August 17 2008 23:26 GMT

#774

I don't know half the names on that list

What's a wildkin? And I always thought the big centaur would be worth more than the golems.

Dark.Carnival

United States5095 Posts

August 17 2008 23:30 GMT

#775

wildkin is the one that has tornado

paper

13196 Posts

August 18 2008 01:44 GMT

#776

oh wow, i didn't know some of the newer neuts

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

August 18 2008 23:08 GMT

#777

Yesterday me scourge 6.51, my opponent picked some "all map formation,"

spectre zeus, morph tinker, furion

I was like LOL and picked

qop, brood th, sp dk.

Bans were something like

puck na es bm wl meepo, I banned puck es meepo.

Top sent: morph vs qop tidehunter, th pulls and jungles

Mid: tinker vs brood

Bottom: zeus spectre vs sp dk

Furion roams. I think th ended up going to middle with brood vs tk.

I thought about picking Lich instead of SP as anti-gank but either one works I guess since graves help us a lot too. We raped really hard since I believe is because their lineup sucks. They can fly anywhere but the only initiator or stun they have is furion. As an early game ganking lineup it's not very good. I also have no idea why they'd pick morph, I mean if they want a half-assed dps who can only gank and do nothing in battles they'd probably be better off picking jugg and have furion lane with him, although morph does have that wave thing. I played sp and warded really hard. The score was even until dk/brood got bkb and it was just hard rape. So my question is are there teams who do this kind of lineup and if so does it work?

Wysp

Canada2299 Posts

August 18 2008 23:19 GMT

#778

On August 19 2008 08:08 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Yesterday me scourge 6.51, my opponent picked some "all map formation,"

spectre zeus, morph tinker, furion

I was like LOL and picked

qop, brood th, sp dk.

Bans were something like

puck na es bm wl meepo, I banned puck es meepo.

Top sent: morph vs qop tidehunter, th pulls and jungles

Mid: tinker vs brood

Bottom: zeus spectre vs sp dk

Furion roams. I think th ended up going to middle with brood vs tk.

I thought about picking Lich instead of SP as anti-gank but either one works I guess since graves help us a lot too. We raped really hard since I believe is because their lineup sucks. They can fly anywhere but the only initiator or stun they have is furion. As an early game ganking lineup it's not very good. I also have no idea why they'd pick morph, I mean if they want a half-assed dps who can only gank and do nothing in battles they'd probably be better off picking jugg and have furion lane with him, although morph does have that wave thing. I played sp and warded really hard. The score was even until dk/brood got bkb and it was just hard rape. So my question is are there teams who do this kind of lineup and if so does it work?

Yep, SK has been using this line-up since their days as TT, 20 versions ago. They have brought it back in the last weeks (new patch, of course) and other top clans have been using recently, too.

http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=234820 this thread has the bans, picks and rep. you can find other games of it, also.

Wysp

Canada2299 Posts

August 18 2008 23:21 GMT

#779

I think once they start facing the better russian teams, such as the new Ks.Int they're gonna get crushed, though (just like the last time they started dominating with this strat.) vigoss and ars-art on the same team is just too much.

spectre is the real reason teams are winning with this strat, though. Zues, sand king, furion and and QoP have an easy time controlling the map in the farm centred .52 play style, feeding spec kills, and we all know how stupid a 30 minute radiance diffusal is on spec. Infact, I don't think I've seen a PDL game inwhich the team with spectre has lost in a 2 week or more, because everyone is just farming. With any items spectre's ult does 500-600 damage to every hero during the engagements, and when you get massive AoE around it, such as QoP, you mash. Against a team with vigoss and ars-art, though, they'll gank the pants off these soft heroes and out farm them, even when dying themselves. They always win because they always get kills, and even with ganks and failed ganks they farm better than any players in the world.

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

August 18 2008 23:31 GMT

#780

Also in another game vs a pretty good team me scourge

Bans were standard except I banned meepo, I usually ban meepo as scourge or when my opponent bans ES. Chinese people are fucking sick with meepo, they play it with like 250apm, they separate the bodies and farm/get experience from like three places, lv25 by 30min, etc. Some of the meepos in the gosu rooms are 1000000x better than xcn-lakuci's meepo.

Anyways Picks:

Scourge: Zeus, Lich Leoric, NEC LOA

Sent: Potm ES, TH SK, TS

So obviously after they picked TH SK I knew they were going for heavy aoe gank early/mid game lineup. My plan was to have Leoric/NEC farm, Zeus LOA LICH support/defend vs gank. After Leoric gets some items, NEC + LOA should counter the aoe very well and SNK can probably kill potm in two hits late game plus he'll have loa + lich backing him up. Only problem is we have no stuns, I didn't think it was gonna be a big problem because of our healers but it did become really frustrating in dealing with ganks.

We struggled early mid game with potm going beyond godlike. However after leoric got treads and radiance we began pushing as a team and able to take a few towers. After Leoric had treads, bkb, radiance, hyperstone + two mekanisms + loa/lich support we were able to rax middle and later top and the opposing team ragequit. So, what should I have picked instead of loa or lich in order to have more stuns? Or does it not matter since we were a late game pushing lineup anyway.