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On April 04 2008 06:56 CubEdIn wrote:
Judicator, how long have you been playing dota?
Seriously, on most intelli heroes you need mana regen as a primary objective, there are some exceptions but QoP isn't one of them.
Bottle works as a mana-regen item IF you have good map control and thus get most runes. But you HAVE to get runes, you can't go back to your fountain every time you need hp/mana, and you're not able to farm with scream as much as you could with Void stone.
I used to go guinsoo first before they changed it, because it had the Eul in it, and it was fun. Now I like to start with Lynken because 20 sec cd is awesome vs stunners. I never went hod on her, if a team wastes all the good spells to kill your qop before she blinks out then the rest of your team should be able to take them.
Anyway, my point is that bottle only works if you're the one collecting runes. And intelli heroes with no mana regen are crap mid game, when they should be most powerful.
Besides, bottle/nulls are items that you'll have to sell later on. Which means you're probably better off skipping them if you manage to do your part without them. And while that crap-item Void Stone/Perseverance goes into making better items like Guinsoo, Orchid, Lynken, your nulls will go into taking up space in your inventory.
...or you could just go skadi like most noobs and be done with it.
Lets see, pers is how much? 1775 for shitty mana regen and mediocre life regen? Think about it this way, mana regen isn't going to be much of a factor if you are spamming scream to farm, you don't need to scream to farm on a regular basis, its called paying attention and last hitting, I know its a scary concept for most scrubs, let me know when you are done shitting your pants.
Now lets see, if you get the shit nuked out of you and you don't die, which do you rather have, a bottle to return to fighting right then or you running back to base to heal anyways because you can't regen that fast? Hm? Go watch bottle users in high level games, how many times in a game where you see a person ganked, then return to the gankers via bottle with team mates to net kills and effectively countering a gank? If you lost map control you already lost the game, a bottle, a pers, whatever isn't going to help you because you can't wander far from your base regardless of what starting items you have, so that point is nil because its pretty much all encompassing. Then go watch the recent SK-Mouz game, ever wonder why SK dominated so much mid game, besides Lion's potential insta-gibing of 3 heroes, they dominated the runes during that time as well, rune control wins games.
And it sounds like you never played a QoP in a serious game, do you have any idea why teams try to insta-gib the QoP mid game? Because her ulti hurts like a bitch to everyone, especially your support heroes, go watch the DoP vs mineski game the one where DoP's Viper goes naked rapier, you know that team fight they lost the Rapier in, you know what the difference maker was? the QoP getting nailed before she could ulti, surprise! Linkens isn't great yet, still doesn't take much to dink it and a lot of spells still damage the hero.
Linkens isn't a bad item on her, but it doesn't add much survival until you make the actual linkens which makes it a poor first item on her, and the hard counter towards her early usually comes in nukes. And Skadi isn't a bad item on her like BB pointed out already, if you can farm it by all means get it, that is you can last hit your way to it without relying on spamming scream right?
Oh and Orchid doesn't need any part of Pers, I have no idea where you think Oblivion Staff needed void and ring of health.
Note: Spamming means using it liberally, not using it to farm, a simple sobi can account for the mana lost during timed screams. The equivalent of Zeus t-bolting the ranged creeps after his arcane.
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On April 04 2008 04:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2008 04:49 Judicator wrote:On April 04 2008 04:45 zulu_nation8 wrote:
this one good dude says he gets pers if he can farm 1800 really fast for lane domination purposes and i find that tip really useful, if i can farm 1800 by say 8-9 minutes i get a pers and stay in lane. Hes playing against idiots then. 1800 in 8-9 mins means you are doing very well, think 3600 in 18 mins and you'll see the standard for fast relics. Pers is a shit item, you are better off going for bottle + Point/Nulls than Pers, hell you are better off saving for the ulti orb. what about the mana recovery, since no one gets euls now qop cant get mana recovery boost until she gets an ultimate orb and its not a really big boost
All the more reason Linken's isn't a great first item on her as its still very "empty" in terms of the setup times compared to say Euls (yes even the new one) or Book, because of the stat potential involved.
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On April 04 2008 07:58 Judicator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2008 06:56 CubEdIn wrote:
Judicator, how long have you been playing dota?
Seriously, on most intelli heroes you need mana regen as a primary objective, there are some exceptions but QoP isn't one of them.
Bottle works as a mana-regen item IF you have good map control and thus get most runes. But you HAVE to get runes, you can't go back to your fountain every time you need hp/mana, and you're not able to farm with scream as much as you could with Void stone.
I used to go guinsoo first before they changed it, because it had the Eul in it, and it was fun. Now I like to start with Lynken because 20 sec cd is awesome vs stunners. I never went hod on her, if a team wastes all the good spells to kill your qop before she blinks out then the rest of your team should be able to take them.
Anyway, my point is that bottle only works if you're the one collecting runes. And intelli heroes with no mana regen are crap mid game, when they should be most powerful.
Besides, bottle/nulls are items that you'll have to sell later on. Which means you're probably better off skipping them if you manage to do your part without them. And while that crap-item Void Stone/Perseverance goes into making better items like Guinsoo, Orchid, Lynken, your nulls will go into taking up space in your inventory.
...or you could just go skadi like most noobs and be done with it. Lets see, pers is how much? 1775 for shitty mana regen and mediocre life regen? Think about it this way, mana regen isn't going to be much of a factor if you are spamming scream to farm, you don't need to scream to farm on a regular basis, its called paying attention and last hitting, I know its a scary concept for most scrubs, let me know when you are done shitting your pants. Now lets see, if you get the shit nuked out of you and you don't die, which do you rather have, a bottle to return to fighting right then or you running back to base to heal anyways because you can't regen that fast? Hm? Go watch bottle users in high level games, how many times in a game where you see a person ganked, then return to the gankers via bottle with team mates to net kills and effectively countering a gank? If you lost map control you already lost the game, a bottle, a pers, whatever isn't going to help you because you can't wander far from your base regardless of what starting items you have, so that point is nil because its pretty much all encompassing. Then go watch the recent SK-Mouz game, ever wonder why SK dominated so much mid game, besides Lion's potential insta-gibing of 3 heroes, they dominated the runes during that time as well, rune control wins games. And it sounds like you never played a QoP in a serious game, do you have any idea why teams try to insta-gib the QoP mid game? Because her ulti hurts like a bitch to everyone, especially your support heroes, go watch the DoP vs mineski game the one where DoP's Viper goes naked rapier, you know that team fight they lost the Rapier in, you know what the difference maker was? the QoP getting nailed before she could ulti, surprise! Linkens isn't great yet, still doesn't take much to dink it and a lot of spells still damage the hero. Linkens isn't a bad item on her, but it doesn't add much survival until you make the actual linkens which makes it a poor first item on her, and the hard counter towards her early usually comes in nukes. And Skadi isn't a bad item on her like BB pointed out already, if you can farm it by all means get it, that is you can last hit your way to it without relying on spamming scream right? Oh and Orchid doesn't need any part of Pers, I have no idea where you think Oblivion Staff needed void and ring of health. Note: Spamming means using it liberally, not using it to farm, a simple sobi can account for the mana lost during timed screams. The equivalent of Zeus t-bolting the ranged creeps after his arcane.
Lol, did my post upset you little man?
That's ok, let me tone it down for you.
All you did was ramble about how cool it is to have a bottle and return to fights and be uber effective and a great aid to the team, but please, don't fking compare this to PRO GAMES. If you have a team and you're on live chat/LAN then everything is completely different then in public games. And if that was the case than I DON'T THINK HE'D BE IN HERE ASKING FOR A BUILD ON QOP WOULD HE???
So yeah, I'm sure that people in MYM, vP, sp, etc are very good at using qop, and map control and everything. But in public games (like the ones we were ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT) you don't always have map control, and wards at rune spots, and so on. You don't always have friends around so you can turn back to the fight and own everyone with your oober-bottle-using skills.
Perseverance, or JUST VOID STONE, as I was saying, isn't that expensive, and 100% mana regen is far from "shitty". And if you know how to move around the map, then scream farming is far more useful than last hitting. You get to a mass of creeps, scream, last hit the ranged ones, and then pay attention on the melees, and you're out of there in 3 seconds. You don't have to scream every wave, but it helps you to blink around, farm neutrals, and is very useful throughout the game.
But sure, if all conditions are met: map control, good teamwork, opponents that never pick up runes and so on, then yeah, bottle is freaking awesome. Just as long as you get most of the runes, everything is just dandy. So yeah, in your scenario of having total map control and using bottle frequently vs being oober-nuked all the time with no ganking done on your part with perseverance, I guess the first one is better. Go figgure.
Also, don't even get me started on the skadi issue. It helps how? You have no attack speed, you already have a slow spell, so it's not really a team-friendly unit, and the extra hp/mana isn't worth the cost. A guinsoo would really help the team, as would orchid or i don't know, even the aghanim (even though I'm not a big fan of aga on qop). The skadi is the least effective item of the ones seen on qop in public games. If you farm well enough and kill people in the first part of the game, that you're considering skadi, then you might as well go for aga, because higher level means nukes hurt a lot. That would be the only reason I would get it on qop. As for skadi, maybe after guinsoo, lynken, bot, aganim are done...
Now please run along and ask some of those high-skilled friends of yours if mana regeneration is important on qop, and MAYBE, just MAYBE consider that people who are asking for advice on a certain build may NOT be part of a pro team. But what do I know, I'm Romanian.
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its 125% btw
and pers can go toward a lot of items
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lol @ flame wars, heres my take which is like slightly above completely noobie, all of this is for 6.51
I agree with judicator in the fact that bottle gives you instant regen which is so important in team fights when you can use it to heal quickly after losing health then go back and rape some shit. It is the primary reason I like bottle so much even with pers because lots of times in team battles all you need is one more scream one more hit to kill a couple heroes and bottle will allow you to do that. Same thing with escaping too. The mana regen is decent on pers but if you go straight to guinsoo you're getting a void stone as well which is good enough for mana regen i think. In my opinion the only thing pers is good for is laning, it allows you to heal slowly and stay in your lane.
I personally rarely use scream when farming before mid game and almost never when laning early on unless im screaming a hero. A blink + scream + wave costs 500 something mana and you dont have a lot early on so you need to save it for fights. I also cringe when I see zeuses bolting the ranged creep for the same reason.
In pub games theres basically no such thing as map control, you can get all the runes you want and I often do early on. But what pub games do have is a lot of fights and not a lot of laning and farming, which bottles becomes useful in.
After seeing Judicator's post I played a couple games going straight to guinsoo and personally I think it works a lot better than getting pers first cuz the money for pers is pretty much an ultimate orb, after you get that it wont take long to get a void stone and you're pretty set until your guinsoo which is an item that helps your team a lot more in fights than linkens. But of course I play in low to mid level pubs so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Btw Judicator where can I find the viper game. Also I just watched SK vs Mouz too, very impressed by Loda's mirana like always. He's one of my favorite players to watch. Also what do you think of Sk.djan/sk.holydjan/xlo.artstyle, I love his qop and think he's a terrific player overall.
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And also, I never ever go skadi before guinsoo in any version and have never seen anyone do that
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I didn't say perseverance is a must have on qop. I said mana regeneration is a must have on qop. So yeah, void stone will do to. Going straight for guinsoo works I guess, but I really like the lynken's insane cd. Especially on akasha who is very manuverable.
And also, I never said bottle is shit. I said that bottle shouldn't be a replacement for mana regeneration. I use bottle+void stone if I'm mid with qop, and just void stone/pers if i'm laneing.
So just to be clear, I only got annoyed when I heard someone saying that pers is crap and you should go bottle/nulls instead. No regen on qop is newb mode on k tnx bi.
P.S. I did see boots->skadi build on qop on pubs. Bottle optional. It's pretty much a play-to-survive mode. You won't get many kills, you won't really help your team, but you won't die that easily either.
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well my point was that if you save your screams for fights and get a void stone early that's more than enough for mana regen without getting pers which is expensive, linkens is a nice survival item but doesn't help your team relaly.
boots to skadi is retarded because it gives qop zero ganking ability boost early on and qop needs to gank early on, it's basically a tb build and qop isn't a late game farmer hero.
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On April 04 2008 08:33 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2008 07:58 Judicator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2008 06:56 CubEdIn wrote:
Judicator, how long have you been playing dota?
Seriously, on most intelli heroes you need mana regen as a primary objective, there are some exceptions but QoP isn't one of them.
Bottle works as a mana-regen item IF you have good map control and thus get most runes. But you HAVE to get runes, you can't go back to your fountain every time you need hp/mana, and you're not able to farm with scream as much as you could with Void stone.
I used to go guinsoo first before they changed it, because it had the Eul in it, and it was fun. Now I like to start with Lynken because 20 sec cd is awesome vs stunners. I never went hod on her, if a team wastes all the good spells to kill your qop before she blinks out then the rest of your team should be able to take them.
Anyway, my point is that bottle only works if you're the one collecting runes. And intelli heroes with no mana regen are crap mid game, when they should be most powerful.
Besides, bottle/nulls are items that you'll have to sell later on. Which means you're probably better off skipping them if you manage to do your part without them. And while that crap-item Void Stone/Perseverance goes into making better items like Guinsoo, Orchid, Lynken, your nulls will go into taking up space in your inventory.
...or you could just go skadi like most noobs and be done with it. Lets see, pers is how much? 1775 for shitty mana regen and mediocre life regen? Think about it this way, mana regen isn't going to be much of a factor if you are spamming scream to farm, you don't need to scream to farm on a regular basis, its called paying attention and last hitting, I know its a scary concept for most scrubs, let me know when you are done shitting your pants. Now lets see, if you get the shit nuked out of you and you don't die, which do you rather have, a bottle to return to fighting right then or you running back to base to heal anyways because you can't regen that fast? Hm? Go watch bottle users in high level games, how many times in a game where you see a person ganked, then return to the gankers via bottle with team mates to net kills and effectively countering a gank? If you lost map control you already lost the game, a bottle, a pers, whatever isn't going to help you because you can't wander far from your base regardless of what starting items you have, so that point is nil because its pretty much all encompassing. Then go watch the recent SK-Mouz game, ever wonder why SK dominated so much mid game, besides Lion's potential insta-gibing of 3 heroes, they dominated the runes during that time as well, rune control wins games. And it sounds like you never played a QoP in a serious game, do you have any idea why teams try to insta-gib the QoP mid game? Because her ulti hurts like a bitch to everyone, especially your support heroes, go watch the DoP vs mineski game the one where DoP's Viper goes naked rapier, you know that team fight they lost the Rapier in, you know what the difference maker was? the QoP getting nailed before she could ulti, surprise! Linkens isn't great yet, still doesn't take much to dink it and a lot of spells still damage the hero. Linkens isn't a bad item on her, but it doesn't add much survival until you make the actual linkens which makes it a poor first item on her, and the hard counter towards her early usually comes in nukes. And Skadi isn't a bad item on her like BB pointed out already, if you can farm it by all means get it, that is you can last hit your way to it without relying on spamming scream right? Oh and Orchid doesn't need any part of Pers, I have no idea where you think Oblivion Staff needed void and ring of health. Note: Spamming means using it liberally, not using it to farm, a simple sobi can account for the mana lost during timed screams. The equivalent of Zeus t-bolting the ranged creeps after his arcane. Lol, did my post upset you little man? That's ok, let me tone it down for you. All you did was ramble about how cool it is to have a bottle and return to fights and be uber effective and a great aid to the team, but please, don't fking compare this to PRO GAMES. If you have a team and you're on live chat/LAN then everything is completely different then in public games. And if that was the case than I DON'T THINK HE'D BE IN HERE ASKING FOR A BUILD ON QOP WOULD HE??? So yeah, I'm sure that people in MYM, vP, sp, etc are very good at using qop, and map control and everything. But in public games (like the ones we were ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT) you don't always have map control, and wards at rune spots, and so on. You don't always have friends around so you can turn back to the fight and own everyone with your oober-bottle-using skills. Perseverance, or JUST VOID STONE, as I was saying, isn't that expensive, and 100% mana regen is far from "shitty". And if you know how to move around the map, then scream farming is far more useful than last hitting. You get to a mass of creeps, scream, last hit the ranged ones, and then pay attention on the melees, and you're out of there in 3 seconds. You don't have to scream every wave, but it helps you to blink around, farm neutrals, and is very useful throughout the game. But sure, if all conditions are met: map control, good teamwork, opponents that never pick up runes and so on, then yeah, bottle is freaking awesome. Just as long as you get most of the runes, everything is just dandy. So yeah, in your scenario of having total map control and using bottle frequently vs being oober-nuked all the time with no ganking done on your part with perseverance, I guess the first one is better. Go figgure. Also, don't even get me started on the skadi issue. It helps how? You have no attack speed, you already have a slow spell, so it's not really a team-friendly unit, and the extra hp/mana isn't worth the cost. A guinsoo would really help the team, as would orchid or i don't know, even the aghanim (even though I'm not a big fan of aga on qop). The skadi is the least effective item of the ones seen on qop in public games. If you farm well enough and kill people in the first part of the game, that you're considering skadi, then you might as well go for aga, because higher level means nukes hurt a lot. That would be the only reason I would get it on qop. As for skadi, maybe after guinsoo, lynken, bot, aganim are done... Now please run along and ask some of those high-skilled friends of yours if mana regeneration is important on qop, and MAYBE, just MAYBE consider that people who are asking for advice on a certain build may NOT be part of a pro team. But what do I know, I'm Romanian.
u r both rong
just get 2 bracers
fegs
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i don't understand cubed, first he says that bottle is a good choice in pro level games, then he says it's noob mode. you might want to think out your position on the issue first before voicing it. usually helps to avoid contradicting yourself
btw drop the personal insults, it's impolite & does nothing to advance discussion
oh and personally, i'd take bottle over perse on qop any day. but im not a fan of linkens in general, it's too useless before you get it, and fairly expensive for that.
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On April 04 2008 11:29 JeeJee wrote:
i don't understand cubed, first he says that bottle is a good choice in pro level games, then he says it's noob mode. you might want to think out your position on the issue first before voicing it. usually helps to avoid contradicting yourself
btw drop the personal insults, it's impolite & does nothing to advance discussion
oh and personally, i'd take bottle over perse on qop any day. but im not a fan of linkens in general, it's too useless before you get it, and fairly expensive for that.
Ok, first of all, I didn't start with the name calling, I just asked for how long has he been playing the game. Read the whole thing before asking me to "stop with the insults".
Second of all, stop misinterpreting everything I say. Not just you.
Third of all I said that you need MANA REGENERATION on qop. That's my opinion, that's how I like it. I didn't say you need the pers. You can do with void alone or mask or whatever. I'm not defending the almighty perseverance.
And fourth of all, he pointed out use of bottle in pro games. I agreed that it's a powerful item in the right hands. However, using just bottle and nulls seems like a very noob thing to do. I didn't contradict myself. In fact, I even stated that I sometimes use bottle and pers into lynken or bottle void into guinsoo, but I did say that bottle->nulls seems noobish. I never said that using a bottle is noob mode. I do think that using only the bottle for mana regen IS. (e.g. bottle into skadi, bottle into aganim, bottle into anything that doesn't have a mana regen item in it). That's my point and has been my point from the very beginning.
Have I made myself clear now? I think it's vital to have regen as early as possible as it helps with both farming and moving around.
Also, rpf, bracers make more sense than nulls as a build, actually, if you've got a grown nuker like Lion on the opposing team and you're scared of gangs. But how you managed to get that into the middle of the quote is beyond me. 
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On April 04 2008 12:25 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2008 11:29 JeeJee wrote:
i don't understand cubed, first he says that bottle is a good choice in pro level games, then he says it's noob mode. you might want to think out your position on the issue first before voicing it. usually helps to avoid contradicting yourself
btw drop the personal insults, it's impolite & does nothing to advance discussion
oh and personally, i'd take bottle over perse on qop any day. but im not a fan of linkens in general, it's too useless before you get it, and fairly expensive for that. Ok, first of all, I didn't start with the name calling, I just asked for how long has he been playing the game. Read the whole thing before asking me to "stop with the insults". Second of all, stop misinterpreting everything I say. Not just you. Third of all I said that you need MANA REGENERATION on qop. That's my opinion, that's how I like it. I didn't say you need the pers. You can do with void alone or mask or whatever. I'm not defending the almighty perseverance. And fourth of all, he pointed out use of bottle in pro games. I agreed that it's a powerful item in the right hands. However, using just bottle and nulls seems like a very noob thing to do. I didn't contradict myself. In fact, I even stated that I sometimes use bottle and pers into lynken or bottle void into guinsoo, but I did say that bottle->nulls seems noobish. I never said that using a bottle is noob mode. I do think that using only the bottle for mana regen IS. (e.g. bottle into skadi, bottle into aganim, bottle into anything that doesn't have a mana regen item in it). That's my point and has been my point from the very beginning. Have I made myself clear now? I think it's vital to have regen as early as possible as it helps with both farming and moving around. Also, rpf, bracers make more sense than nulls as a build, actually, if you've got a grown nuker like Lion on the opposing team and you're scared of gangs. But how you managed to get that into the middle of the quote is beyond me.
it doesn't matter whether you started it or not lol? fact remains, you insult for no reason ("he started it!" is not a reason). i never said you're the only one but you cannot deny this. and yes i have read the whole thing.
I do not misinterpret what you say. i misinterpret what you think, because you do not write what you think. all i have are your words and nothing more. you said the following:
-better without bottle
-bottle is good
it's hard to misinterpret those sentences as anything other than self-contradicting, because they are.
also you mentioned nulls and bottle going to eat into your inventory. what? how many are you thinking exactly?
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k goddamn i hate dota-theorycrafting
k before whatever, im not saying bottle is bad at all. k.
i agree with cubedin honestly. Bursts of mana regen are helpful for more ganking but in the long run if you want to survive and be able to harass regularly with qop using spells you need regen, not bottle. 210 mana regen is not even enough for two nukes. if you reply to this with "rune control" that's making an assumption your team has the spots warded and you manage to grab it either before they do or end up luckily in the spot it comes out in.
i think someone, maybe bb, mentioned this earlier but there was a replay where a qop didn't go out to gank much while solo-ing mag mid. and the reason was that if she ganked a lot mag would end up with an incredibly early blink so im guessing it was more beneficial to stay laned to deny. so in this case pers > bottle, no argument here
if you get pers on qop you can lane much more effectively, imo it gives you better lane control than a bottle. just because you don't have a bottle doesn't mean you can't use runes, when it's time just go check it and if its like haste dd or invis just go gank, if its illusion use it for whatever (free ward, attempt to block-kill an enemy hero, etc)
the point about "spamming scream to farm is bad" is too obvious. no good player is going to spam it whenever they can to farm, but in some situations maybe 2-3 creeps are red and all 3 deniable and you wont be able to last hit them all. so if you can move up to range of their hero too and scream. effective farming from qop is a combination of mostly last hitting + scream.
and having more mana regen means later after ganking you can neut a little etc while waiting for their team to push a lane back
and the most obvious of all, no one person in here is right. people have different playstyles of qop and if the player is good, doesnt matter if they go pers or bottles they'll still do well.
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and if i can point out another thing.
the argument that pers is bad because linkens as a first item is bad doesnt work. jsut because getting linkens is better later doesnt mean you need to wait til then to buy your pers. having an early pers is beneficial to both survivial and it gives a crappy +damage but it still helps early game, its almost as much as 2 nulls in terms of damage.
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On April 04 2008 08:33 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2008 07:58 Judicator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2008 06:56 CubEdIn wrote:
Judicator, how long have you been playing dota?
Seriously, on most intelli heroes you need mana regen as a primary objective, there are some exceptions but QoP isn't one of them.
Bottle works as a mana-regen item IF you have good map control and thus get most runes. But you HAVE to get runes, you can't go back to your fountain every time you need hp/mana, and you're not able to farm with scream as much as you could with Void stone.
I used to go guinsoo first before they changed it, because it had the Eul in it, and it was fun. Now I like to start with Lynken because 20 sec cd is awesome vs stunners. I never went hod on her, if a team wastes all the good spells to kill your qop before she blinks out then the rest of your team should be able to take them.
Anyway, my point is that bottle only works if you're the one collecting runes. And intelli heroes with no mana regen are crap mid game, when they should be most powerful.
Besides, bottle/nulls are items that you'll have to sell later on. Which means you're probably better off skipping them if you manage to do your part without them. And while that crap-item Void Stone/Perseverance goes into making better items like Guinsoo, Orchid, Lynken, your nulls will go into taking up space in your inventory.
...or you could just go skadi like most noobs and be done with it. Lets see, pers is how much? 1775 for shitty mana regen and mediocre life regen? Think about it this way, mana regen isn't going to be much of a factor if you are spamming scream to farm, you don't need to scream to farm on a regular basis, its called paying attention and last hitting, I know its a scary concept for most scrubs, let me know when you are done shitting your pants. Now lets see, if you get the shit nuked out of you and you don't die, which do you rather have, a bottle to return to fighting right then or you running back to base to heal anyways because you can't regen that fast? Hm? Go watch bottle users in high level games, how many times in a game where you see a person ganked, then return to the gankers via bottle with team mates to net kills and effectively countering a gank? If you lost map control you already lost the game, a bottle, a pers, whatever isn't going to help you because you can't wander far from your base regardless of what starting items you have, so that point is nil because its pretty much all encompassing. Then go watch the recent SK-Mouz game, ever wonder why SK dominated so much mid game, besides Lion's potential insta-gibing of 3 heroes, they dominated the runes during that time as well, rune control wins games. And it sounds like you never played a QoP in a serious game, do you have any idea why teams try to insta-gib the QoP mid game? Because her ulti hurts like a bitch to everyone, especially your support heroes, go watch the DoP vs mineski game the one where DoP's Viper goes naked rapier, you know that team fight they lost the Rapier in, you know what the difference maker was? the QoP getting nailed before she could ulti, surprise! Linkens isn't great yet, still doesn't take much to dink it and a lot of spells still damage the hero. Linkens isn't a bad item on her, but it doesn't add much survival until you make the actual linkens which makes it a poor first item on her, and the hard counter towards her early usually comes in nukes. And Skadi isn't a bad item on her like BB pointed out already, if you can farm it by all means get it, that is you can last hit your way to it without relying on spamming scream right? Oh and Orchid doesn't need any part of Pers, I have no idea where you think Oblivion Staff needed void and ring of health. Note: Spamming means using it liberally, not using it to farm, a simple sobi can account for the mana lost during timed screams. The equivalent of Zeus t-bolting the ranged creeps after his arcane. Lol, did my post upset you little man? That's ok, let me tone it down for you. All you did was ramble about how cool it is to have a bottle and return to fights and be uber effective and a great aid to the team, but please, don't fking compare this to PRO GAMES. If you have a team and you're on live chat/LAN then everything is completely different then in public games. And if that was the case than I DON'T THINK HE'D BE IN HERE ASKING FOR A BUILD ON QOP WOULD HE??? So yeah, I'm sure that people in MYM, vP, sp, etc are very good at using qop, and map control and everything. But in public games (like the ones we were ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT) you don't always have map control, and wards at rune spots, and so on. You don't always have friends around so you can turn back to the fight and own everyone with your oober-bottle-using skills. Perseverance, or JUST VOID STONE, as I was saying, isn't that expensive, and 100% mana regen is far from "shitty". And if you know how to move around the map, then scream farming is far more useful than last hitting. You get to a mass of creeps, scream, last hit the ranged ones, and then pay attention on the melees, and you're out of there in 3 seconds. You don't have to scream every wave, but it helps you to blink around, farm neutrals, and is very useful throughout the game. But sure, if all conditions are met: map control, good teamwork, opponents that never pick up runes and so on, then yeah, bottle is freaking awesome. Just as long as you get most of the runes, everything is just dandy. So yeah, in your scenario of having total map control and using bottle frequently vs being oober-nuked all the time with no ganking done on your part with perseverance, I guess the first one is better. Go figgure. Also, don't even get me started on the skadi issue. It helps how? You have no attack speed, you already have a slow spell, so it's not really a team-friendly unit, and the extra hp/mana isn't worth the cost. A guinsoo would really help the team, as would orchid or i don't know, even the aghanim (even though I'm not a big fan of aga on qop). The skadi is the least effective item of the ones seen on qop in public games. If you farm well enough and kill people in the first part of the game, that you're considering skadi, then you might as well go for aga, because higher level means nukes hurt a lot. That would be the only reason I would get it on qop. As for skadi, maybe after guinsoo, lynken, bot, aganim are done... Now please run along and ask some of those high-skilled friends of yours if mana regeneration is important on qop, and MAYBE, just MAYBE consider that people who are asking for advice on a certain build may NOT be part of a pro team. But what do I know, I'm Romanian.
Its not about pro or not, its simple effectiveness, all you have argued is that mana regen is important on QoP which I am not disputing a quick Euls gives you mana regen and effectiveness in team fights, I am disputing pers' cost effectiveness even if it leads into Linkens. Skadi if farmed quick means more effective clean up, thats not to say rush Skadi if you can everytime, but its not a bad item to rush, so play according the game, the slow from it makes it nice for ganks. The point you are missing is that Pers doesn't help much in the mid game and Linkens wont be a factor till you power through the 3k+ gold you need to get to make it. So that leaves pers as one of your primary items mid game. 100% regen when you have shit int isn't the greatest idea in the world and early game and mid game you are more likely to dump mana via chain casting more than slowly regaining mana so a larger mana pool is going to mean more than mana regen.
And anything can work in pubs, I went Mjol on Necro on pubs for example. Its incredibly dumb to base your conclusions on what you experience in pubs.
Seriously go play something besides pubs and you'll see how different the game really is.
As for Viper replays, there was a recent one with Viper being picked to counter Silencer, I don't remember who the teams were but that was a very nice pick to counter Silencer solo.
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On April 04 2008 13:04 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2008 08:33 CubEdIn wrote:On April 04 2008 07:58 Judicator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 04 2008 06:56 CubEdIn wrote:
Judicator, how long have you been playing dota?
Seriously, on most intelli heroes you need mana regen as a primary objective, there are some exceptions but QoP isn't one of them.
Bottle works as a mana-regen item IF you have good map control and thus get most runes. But you HAVE to get runes, you can't go back to your fountain every time you need hp/mana, and you're not able to farm with scream as much as you could with Void stone.
I used to go guinsoo first before they changed it, because it had the Eul in it, and it was fun. Now I like to start with Lynken because 20 sec cd is awesome vs stunners. I never went hod on her, if a team wastes all the good spells to kill your qop before she blinks out then the rest of your team should be able to take them.
Anyway, my point is that bottle only works if you're the one collecting runes. And intelli heroes with no mana regen are crap mid game, when they should be most powerful.
Besides, bottle/nulls are items that you'll have to sell later on. Which means you're probably better off skipping them if you manage to do your part without them. And while that crap-item Void Stone/Perseverance goes into making better items like Guinsoo, Orchid, Lynken, your nulls will go into taking up space in your inventory.
...or you could just go skadi like most noobs and be done with it. Lets see, pers is how much? 1775 for shitty mana regen and mediocre life regen? Think about it this way, mana regen isn't going to be much of a factor if you are spamming scream to farm, you don't need to scream to farm on a regular basis, its called paying attention and last hitting, I know its a scary concept for most scrubs, let me know when you are done shitting your pants. Now lets see, if you get the shit nuked out of you and you don't die, which do you rather have, a bottle to return to fighting right then or you running back to base to heal anyways because you can't regen that fast? Hm? Go watch bottle users in high level games, how many times in a game where you see a person ganked, then return to the gankers via bottle with team mates to net kills and effectively countering a gank? If you lost map control you already lost the game, a bottle, a pers, whatever isn't going to help you because you can't wander far from your base regardless of what starting items you have, so that point is nil because its pretty much all encompassing. Then go watch the recent SK-Mouz game, ever wonder why SK dominated so much mid game, besides Lion's potential insta-gibing of 3 heroes, they dominated the runes during that time as well, rune control wins games. And it sounds like you never played a QoP in a serious game, do you have any idea why teams try to insta-gib the QoP mid game? Because her ulti hurts like a bitch to everyone, especially your support heroes, go watch the DoP vs mineski game the one where DoP's Viper goes naked rapier, you know that team fight they lost the Rapier in, you know what the difference maker was? the QoP getting nailed before she could ulti, surprise! Linkens isn't great yet, still doesn't take much to dink it and a lot of spells still damage the hero. Linkens isn't a bad item on her, but it doesn't add much survival until you make the actual linkens which makes it a poor first item on her, and the hard counter towards her early usually comes in nukes. And Skadi isn't a bad item on her like BB pointed out already, if you can farm it by all means get it, that is you can last hit your way to it without relying on spamming scream right? Oh and Orchid doesn't need any part of Pers, I have no idea where you think Oblivion Staff needed void and ring of health. Note: Spamming means using it liberally, not using it to farm, a simple sobi can account for the mana lost during timed screams. The equivalent of Zeus t-bolting the ranged creeps after his arcane. Lol, did my post upset you little man? That's ok, let me tone it down for you. All you did was ramble about how cool it is to have a bottle and return to fights and be uber effective and a great aid to the team, but please, don't fking compare this to PRO GAMES. If you have a team and you're on live chat/LAN then everything is completely different then in public games. And if that was the case than I DON'T THINK HE'D BE IN HERE ASKING FOR A BUILD ON QOP WOULD HE??? So yeah, I'm sure that people in MYM, vP, sp, etc are very good at using qop, and map control and everything. But in public games (like the ones we were ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT) you don't always have map control, and wards at rune spots, and so on. You don't always have friends around so you can turn back to the fight and own everyone with your oober-bottle-using skills. Perseverance, or JUST VOID STONE, as I was saying, isn't that expensive, and 100% mana regen is far from "shitty". And if you know how to move around the map, then scream farming is far more useful than last hitting. You get to a mass of creeps, scream, last hit the ranged ones, and then pay attention on the melees, and you're out of there in 3 seconds. You don't have to scream every wave, but it helps you to blink around, farm neutrals, and is very useful throughout the game. But sure, if all conditions are met: map control, good teamwork, opponents that never pick up runes and so on, then yeah, bottle is freaking awesome. Just as long as you get most of the runes, everything is just dandy. So yeah, in your scenario of having total map control and using bottle frequently vs being oober-nuked all the time with no ganking done on your part with perseverance, I guess the first one is better. Go figgure. Also, don't even get me started on the skadi issue. It helps how? You have no attack speed, you already have a slow spell, so it's not really a team-friendly unit, and the extra hp/mana isn't worth the cost. A guinsoo would really help the team, as would orchid or i don't know, even the aghanim (even though I'm not a big fan of aga on qop). The skadi is the least effective item of the ones seen on qop in public games. If you farm well enough and kill people in the first part of the game, that you're considering skadi, then you might as well go for aga, because higher level means nukes hurt a lot. That would be the only reason I would get it on qop. As for skadi, maybe after guinsoo, lynken, bot, aganim are done... Now please run along and ask some of those high-skilled friends of yours if mana regeneration is important on qop, and MAYBE, just MAYBE consider that people who are asking for advice on a certain build may NOT be part of a pro team. But what do I know, I'm Romanian. Its not about pro or not, its simple effectiveness, all you have argued is that mana regen is important on QoP which I am not disputing a quick Euls gives you mana regen and effectiveness in team fights, I am disputing pers' cost effectiveness even if it leads into Linkens. Skadi if farmed quick means more effective clean up, thats not to say rush Skadi if you can everytime, but its not a bad item to rush, so play according the game, the slow from it makes it nice for ganks. The point you are missing is that Pers doesn't help much in the mid game and Linkens wont be a factor till you power through the 3k+ gold you need to get to make it. So that leaves pers as one of your primary items mid game. 100% regen when you have shit int isn't the greatest idea in the world and early game and mid game you are more likely to dump mana via chain casting more than slowly regaining mana so a larger mana pool is going to mean more than mana regen. And anything can work in pubs, I went Mjol on Necro on pubs for example. Its incredibly dumb to base your conclusions on what you experience in pubs. Seriously go play something besides pubs and you'll see how different the game really is. As for Viper replays, there was a recent one with Viper being picked to counter Silencer, I don't remember who the teams were but that was a very nice pick to counter Silencer solo.
...
Silencer is a counter for Viper.
The reason being CotS
Viper has no spell that cancels Curse, besides his ultimate.
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are you serious cots? ive never seen a good silencer get that, correct me if im wrong but glaives+stats gives you the best lane control, you can last hit so easily with it
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lol so many long posts. did anyone flame rpf? if not i wont read any of them
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On April 04 2008 13:26 BlueRoyaL wrote:
are you serious cots? ive never seen a good silencer get that, correct me if im wrong but glaives+stats gives you the best lane control, you can last hit so easily with it
Silencer goes CotS versus viper because it just houses him so hard.
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WEB DOESNT GIVE VISION ANYMORE??!?!?!? W T F
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EPT
