EPTReading material: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170100
The Official Fighting Games Topic - Page 114
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
Reading material: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170100 | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
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VManOfMana
United States764 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/user/supersf2turbo The tournament itself is a bit old (November 2008) but the matches are very good. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
If I had to make a comparison its like watching war3 and you can't tell what the fuck is going on. All you know is something is happening, but don't know why or how. And I think it's especially gay after all those hits that they only lost a minimal amount of life after 50 hits or whatever. | ||
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Scooter
United States747 Posts
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Trumpet
United States1935 Posts
On February 10 2009 15:30 CharlieMurphy wrote: Yea, you could compare the super long combos with skill or to sc with doing build orders but the problem is there is nothing the other player is doing other than taking the hits once the combo starts (Unless of course the player fucks up). It's just boring imo trading these huge combos back and forth especially from a strictly viewer standpoint. If I had to make a comparison its like watching war3 and you can't tell what the fuck is going on. All you know is something is happening, but don't know why or how. And I think it's especially gay after all those hits that they only lost a minimal amount of life after 50 hits or whatever. I'm going to go ahead and say that if you haven't already spent a good deal of time playing ST, it'd probably be your favorite fighter by a long shot. ST Dhalsim, for instance, just doesn't combo. It's not a part of the character design, and imo it makes him fun as all hell to play. There are strong (even 100%) combos in ST, but they tend to be hard enough to set up that the characters don't revolve around landing the perfect crossup to win. And they also tend to still only be 5 hits >.> | ||
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[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
On February 10 2009 08:39 CharlieMurphy wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't like these fighting games where characters have really large HP and everyone has these outrageously long juggles/combos? Most of the games are like this too it seems. Imo the games lack depth and mind games as much as others without the aforementioned. It's just all memorization, timing, and hand dexterity (not to say these are bad). I wouldn't say they lack depth and mind games of older 2D fighters, those qualities are still there but redistributed in a different way. 3S has far longer longer combos than ST even though it is still a Street Fighter game. With longer combos, the chances of making mistakes are higher. SF footsies are replace with MVC2's wavedashing, assist baiting, etc.. The basic ideas are still there such as controlling space. Memorization is a part of all fighting games, we're just so use to Street Fighter because it has been around the longest and set the original standard for later fighting game. Each new revolution in fighting games, there is an added layer to learn and more to memorize. | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On February 10 2009 08:39 CharlieMurphy wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't like these fighting games where characters have really large HP and everyone has these outrageously long juggles/combos? Most of the games are like this too it seems. Imo the games lack depth and mind games as much as others without the aforementioned. It's just all memorization, timing, and hand dexterity (not to say these are bad). Personally, I enjoy it as long as the combos aren't too long and aren't too hard. Even if they are too long/hard, I wouldn't say those games lack depth or mind games at all: it just means you need to put in a bigger time committment before you get close enough to the execution ceiling to be able to compete on a mind games level. Combos add many of the benefits to fighting games that macro adds to SC. It adds a mechanical skill aspect that is impressive in itself. And, for most people, it makes the game much more exciting and fun to play than a purely strategic- or mind-game-based game. In addition, I think that combo-based fighters like Arcana Heart and BlazBlue have a big advantage over games like 3s where many characters have short combos into supers: the learning curve is relatively smooth. This is because in 3s, there is a big gap between players who can hit-confirm supers consistently and those who can't. E.g. consider Chun Li: if you can't hit-confirm into her super then her damage is crap by comparison. But in a combo-based fighter like the two above, you can progress to more and more advanced combos, gradually increasing your damage output. So your damage output increases smoothly with your skill and experience levels, rather than hitting a plateau when you can't super consistently and then suddenly jumping up once you master it. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
I had a really hard time in GG when I was used to buffering the moves before they happened, I had to erase this habbit because it made hit confirms (and FRCs after a string) impossible. Now I try to input everything as late as possible. CharlieMurphy: Long combos while the opponent can't do anything: it's still interesting, because: -the opponent can screw up the combo (and not always at the same part) -the combo can aim for biggest damage, positioning the opponent into the corner or into an other setup, building super bar etc. so it's interesting to see what the player wants to do. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
It's a big mistake to say the depth and mindgames of a game are tied to the length and effectiveness of combos. Depth is most related to the number of viable options one has in a neutral position (neither player advantaged, although this can be hard to define in a fighter like SF2 with a strict spacing game and limited movement options!), an advantaged position, and a disadvantaged position. What determines what options are really viable is the risk/reward in the matchup and general situation. If you've got 100 options and only 1 is worthwhile in most situations, that still means the game sucks. Combos are just how you deal damage once you're in advantaged positions and got a hit in--or outplayed/outguessed your opponent from a less advantaged position--be they 1 hit or 40 hits. AH's homing system is good because it can be used to get out of bad situations (guard cancel), get into good situations (general homing into face), and increase your damage once you land your hit (extending combos). You have to manage what you want to use it for. However, all the homings further decrease the emphasis and depth of the spacing game beyond what you would get from a normal game with airdashing and multiple jumps, so it's a double-edged sword. Another advantage combo-based fighters can have is a smoother gradation between damage from an incidental hit and a max-damage combo that requires a great setup. It's probably better if "smaller" (but what's big or small depends on the game) mistakes get you punished less. This would be a reason why 3S Chun is retarded; she gets c.mk xx super damage out of many situations as long as they involve her having meter. It doesn't matter if you're at close range or max c.mk range and were not blocking low, or if you screwed up as bad as to whiff a super. I think it's important to stress here the situations in which big damage come up as well as the execution required for them. | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
Ken: c.rh xx c.jab xx c.jab xx c.jab xx fierce punch fireball pretty deep gameplay imo | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
Viper is so bad. I honestly think either the S+ rank Viper thing is a joke/troll thing or the Japanese just are too polite/good to mash DPs/EXs/ultras like retards since that seems to be a viable anti-Viper strat. To give you an idea of how stupid Viper's situation is, she can be perfecting someone and rushing them down and VIPER is the one under pressure because one DP/EX/ultra will not only stop her shenanigans, it will do far more damage to her than she has been doing to her opponent. Viper has to do like a full combo + change to match the damage that she'll take from eating one EX DP. re: CharlieMurphy- I understand what you're getting at, though "depth" is perhaps not the correct word for it. Games with long/difficult/many combos to memorize can have a lot of depth (cf. GGXX series, VF series, MAHVEL BAYBEE, etc.) whereas games with short combos don't necessarily have a lot of depth (cf. any number of poverty games and plain-bad games). What you are articulating is more a lack of transparency/accessibility in long-combo-games; the sense that you maybe missed something, but now someone is getting combo'd for 10 seconds before anything else happens so you won't really get to figure out what just happened. Combos also distract from a lot of other things going on because they just stick out. tbh this is why fighting games will never be a good e-sport, as much as I like them over pretty much every other competitive genre. Even with lifebars and such, it's really hard to discern exactly what is happening at any given moment, and there isn't enough down-time in a match for something like an SC commentator to point out the mindgames or whatever going on- which is why fighting game commentary typically falls into the realm of "PLAAAAAAAAGUUUUU" rather than any kind of in-depth strategic coverage. That said, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. The problem is that the untrained eye sees the shallow things (oh he got dat mango sentinel; that's 90%, welcome to USA nigga) and can't spot the deeper stuff 'cuz they don't know what it is, and mango Sentinels make them think of the New York Knicks rather than spacing/zoning/footsies/mixups/etc. | ||
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Love.Zelduck
United States170 Posts
SFIV SO CLOSE!!! See you on XBL. | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
a lot of tekken players did not like t6 because two juggles wins the game, maybe one with wall and rage. | ||
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sung_moon
United States10110 Posts
On February 11 2009 08:25 kainzero wrote: all the anime games have ridiculous combos. it took me 2 hours to learn Jam's AC loop on a standing opponent in the right position. i don't even wanna touch melty blood or arcana heart. and fate: unlimited codes looks like the worst offender, they'll do some 40 hit combo that takes off 10% life. i mean at least in marvel, the infinites do damage. a lot of tekken players did not like t6 because two juggles wins the game, maybe one with wall and rage. i liked t5 and t5dr... but 6 kinda turns me away.. i remember some1 showed me a match where a raged paul hit a DF for like 40%..... wth seems like the rage gauge ruins the game slightly imo | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On February 11 2009 03:06 MCMcEmcee wrote: tbh this is why fighting games will never be a good e-sport, as much as I like them over pretty much every other competitive genre. Even with lifebars and such, it's really hard to discern exactly what is happening at any given moment, and there isn't enough down-time in a match for something like an SC commentator to point out the mindgames or whatever going on- which is why fighting game commentary typically falls into the realm of "PLAAAAAAAAGUUUUU" rather than any kind of in-depth strategic coverage. I think that's mostly true, although if you go into a 5-10 second combo, then that's usually downtime that you can use in theory to explain some aspect of the game.  (Or you can just be like Rockefeller and shout, "Wake-up no good! You're gonna eat a combo, Tom! I bet you're regretting it! I bet you're really regretting that now! I bet you're really regretting that now!" lol )But more importantly, I think that the lack of downtime is overall a benefit for spectators, since you end up packing more action into a shorter timespan. The thing is, I doubt that the average casual sports fan knows anything about the mind games or non-trivial strategies in almost any sport, e- or not. It's not like you need to in order to enjoy the action, even if you won't be able to appreciate it as much. And usually fighting games make it very obvious when one player is kicking ass, or when one player is on the verge of death, etc., which is what the average sports fan really cares about, imo. I believe it's partly due to fans getting emotionally-attached to players and/or teams. Once they're emotionally-attached, they will feel great suspense and excitement just from seeing their player or team winning or losing. That said, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. The problem is that the untrained eye sees the shallow things (oh he got dat mango sentinel; that's 90%, welcome to USA nigga) and can't spot the deeper stuff 'cuz they don't know what it is, and mango Sentinels make them think of the New York Knicks rather than spacing/zoning/footsies/mixups/etc. Hahahaha. | ||
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