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Nope, after watching ESWC, if you watch EHome play, their carries rarely reaches for a kill, very passive shit. When they have numbers they come at you but very rarely do they control a lane through harass. The only Euro players that do that in an intelligent manner is Light and Loda.
The reason this works is that they run that dual/triple headed monster line ups that asks the other team to pick their poison. Their support plays their role very well and their carries can all CS like crazy. However it's a crush a lane and trade a lane strategy that works out well for them. Euros are not comfortable doing this at all. NV.int could have if ppy wasn't a fucking retard and decided to pull both Azen and him out of the lane letting that Lion get free and given the entire bottom half of the map to Medusa.
Funnily enough, the roam wasn't abused more by Euros. I think Maelk knows this very well but didn't have the players to do this, Playmate is a shitty roam. LOST had some success against EHome with their players more comfortable doing what was needed. The fact that Ehome banned Chen first and Enigma second against DTS in the final game says something. Euro comp needed to hold down two lanes with 1 hero which would naturally come from the jungle.
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happy belated birthday alven. 
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Nv.Int's game ended when they opted for Lanaya as their last pick against EHOME. All lanes were instantly lost at that point. You really can't get away with more than one melee hero tops against a 5 ranged hero team played by the chinese because they'll put a lock down on the lanes then and it'll last.
MYM was looking alright except when they picked and played like utter crap against DTS in both games. Maelk isn't in it for #1 anymore I think, his strategy was something a long the lines of "Ima pick necro and alchemist, then proceed to win the game"
Other than EHOME having a 6-man team I think it showed that all of the non-asian top teams have been unstable and inconsistent as of late. They all have inconsistent lineups and don't practice enough to be at the top of the food chain.
LOST were doing ok against EHOME apart from the fact that Loda crumbled before Burnings SF.
DTS insisted on picking Slardar & other melee heroes and got laneraped in two games, then tried to play chinese dota in the final game. DTS are probably the most stable right now but they're not that smart in their drafts and never really have been. Apart from Dendi most of DTS seemed confident enough in their laning phase against EHOME, most other teams were really affected by scary and perfection the chinese were delivering.
TeG was the only team to really put pressure on them, EHOME made a lot more mistakes midgame than they usually do. I'm not sure if it was because of not being totally accustomed to the venue yet or if they simply rely so much on their wards or are used to a slower-paced midgame. But TeG was doing alright there despite their mediocre decision-making. If they had a smart strategic captain and a hero that could get them uphill in EHOME's base (Panda, Kunkka, Undying maybe) they had a legit shot at taking that game.
EHOME banned Chen against any Chen-potent team after that though leaving that kind of style hard to replicate for the future matches. DTS tried with their enchantress but didn't have a hard carry to back them up and thus had nothing to offer after a failed midgame.
The thing is though the chinese players are generally smarter and they have played the game a lot more and analyzed it way more. And instead of trying to analyze and replicate it most of the european teams have some kind of pride, sticking to their usual playstyle and blaming random stuff. I guess that's to be expected when most of the teams consist of 16-19 year olds with big ass egos.
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No single player 'carries' Ehome to victory :p
They're all so good, it's rare to spot a weak link in most of their games.
Outpicked? Check.
Outlaned? Check.
Outfarmed? Check.
Solid laning followed by 2-3 fights in front of 1st towers -> don't let opponent do anything. So obvious but executed well. Usually 1 safe farm hero so they can go crazy roaming with 3-4 ppl and not worry about protecting him and if he does get ganked, they have enough time to tp/blink and reverse rape.
BKB sf
BKB brood
Linken's dusa
morph duh
etc.
I got the impression that a lot of teams were overconscience of playing Ehome, and decided to fuck theirselves over in picks (lack of reliable stuns, poor lanes). The grand finals was painful to watch  3 Melee... I've gotten into the habit of picking max 2 melee heroes these days. Just makes laning/roaming so much more flexible.
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On July 05 2010 09:21 Corr wrote:
Nv.Int's game ended when they opted for Lanaya as their last pick against EHOME. All lanes were instantly lost at that point. You really can't get away with more than one melee hero tops against a 5 ranged hero team played by the chinese because they'll put a lock down on the lanes then and it'll last.
MYM was looking alright except when they picked and played like utter crap against DTS in both games. Maelk isn't in it for #1 anymore I think, his strategy was something a long the lines of "Ima pick necro and alchemist, then proceed to win the game"
Other than EHOME having a 6-man team I think it showed that all of the non-asian top teams have been unstable and inconsistent as of late. They all have inconsistent lineups and don't practice enough to be at the top of the food chain.
LOST were doing ok against EHOME apart from the fact that Loda crumbled before Burnings SF.
DTS insisted on picking Slardar & other melee heroes and got laneraped in two games, then tried to play chinese dota in the final game. DTS are probably the most stable right now but they're not that smart in their drafts and never really have been. Apart from Dendi most of DTS seemed confident enough in their laning phase against EHOME, most other teams were really affected by scary and perfection the chinese were delivering.
TeG was the only team to really put pressure on them, EHOME made a lot more mistakes midgame than they usually do. I'm not sure if it was because of not being totally accustomed to the venue yet or if they simply rely so much on their wards or are used to a slower-paced midgame. But TeG was doing alright there despite their mediocre decision-making. If they had a smart strategic captain and a hero that could get them uphill in EHOME's base (Panda, Kunkka, Undying maybe) they had a legit shot at taking that game.
EHOME banned Chen against any Chen-potent team after that though leaving that kind of style hard to replicate for the future matches. DTS tried with their enchantress but didn't have a hard carry to back them up and thus had nothing to offer after a failed midgame.
NV.int lost when fucking puppy acted like fucking puppy, instead of putting WD on roam or applying equal pressure on Medusa since Seer can jungle as well, he pulls both heroes from the lane and sticks it in the jungle. Korok's TA was actually doing fairly well considering the lane and the debacle at bottom. Fear manned up and Demon was gayed once because of once again, the pressure at bot. Demon should have been on Puck or PotM instead of the WD, he needs crafty heroes of which WD is not.
LOST had some opportunities because of their experience running lanes thanks to Duckys and Twisted's experience on roam.
DTS honestly was out of ideas. Wonder how Light thought, because he can match cs with any of the players, its a matter of whether his team can bring it. Sadly to say these games are very suited for someone like Vigoss, the fuck your line up I am going to gank the shit out of you mentality. I thought the Russians could have benefited from playing an extremely passive solo Zeus.
Like I said earlier, Maelk knew, you could tell he knew based on his picks and use of Alchemist, he just couldn't do it with this team of players.
What EHome ran was a very passive-aggressive version of the tri-lane philosophy, 2 heroes that can hold their own in a lane and indirectly creating space for all three lanes through the sole use of 2 support heroes. Basically, all three lanes are passive and only taking what the other gives them. The aggressive part comes from the carries and the perceived threat of those carries in the mid game with late game items. Euros never really played to their strengths against EHome save a few games.
Also, thanks to the shoutcast, anyone who listened to it is now 5 times dumber at DotA. Every time Hit0mi brought up a legitimate point, Mark was quick to overrule it with some stupid ass comment (like a Necro will out carry a Medusa/Storm when their supports are light years ahead of yours).
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Its kinda nice to see an actual pro team play out the conclusion I came to when I played competitive dota. If you have 5 players who can succeed in every role you will absolutely dominate. Ehome didn't drop a single game. It's kinda a shame that it had to be a Chinese team simply because they are locked into their own ladder and inhouse culture so there is no available history or replays of these players [ not to mention weird ass names like aaa and j and numbers ] I would have much preferred it to be a euro team so there was more transparency but it just seems like that can never happen due to ego and inertia.
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On July 05 2010 08:33 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 04:48 hideo wrote:On July 04 2010 03:57 Corr wrote:
eswc got chinalionraped
young rice from europe no chance indeed, that lion was ballin out of control. Dai is a good Lion but not why EHOME won ESWC so easily. Just consistently smarter picks and play... maybe because DC was playing intense coach role
I really liked how they would occasionally sacrifice their earlygame carry cs, for lion to get that fast blink dagger. After that, complete map dominance and burning's cs would just skyrocket straight back up. Like Judicator mentioned, a carefully thought out game of give and take.
I wish I could play a good enough gank game to pull that off. :|
Their judgement is so good in high pressure situations. I didn't see a single instance where X stacked a disable, or blew his ult too early.
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On July 05 2010 08:57 Judicator wrote:
Nope, after watching ESWC, if you watch EHome play, their carries rarely reaches for a kill, very passive shit. When they have numbers they come at you but very rarely do they control a lane through harass. The only Euro players that do that in an intelligent manner is Light and Loda.
The reason this works is that they run that dual/triple headed monster line ups that asks the other team to pick their poison. Their support plays their role very well and their carries can all CS like crazy. However it's a crush a lane and trade a lane strategy that works out well for them. Euros are not comfortable doing this at all. NV.int could have if ppy wasn't a fucking retard and decided to pull both Azen and him out of the lane letting that Lion get free and given the entire bottom half of the map to Medusa.
Funnily enough, the roam wasn't abused more by Euros. I think Maelk knows this very well but didn't have the players to do this, Playmate is a shitty roam. LOST had some success against EHome with their players more comfortable doing what was needed. The fact that Ehome banned Chen first and Enigma second against DTS in the final game says something. Euro comp needed to hold down two lanes with 1 hero which would naturally come from the jungle.
EHOME banned Chen Enigma Pugna against DTS in every single game, and they banned Pugna Enigma every fucking game in ESWC and nobody cracked them?
In terms of bans EHOME said "bring it on" (maybe banning 1-2 heroes, Chen against DTS, Beastmaster against Nv.int) and nobody brought it.
LOST let them play Brood... huge gamble against any Chinese team to do that. EHOME didn't even have Drow or Dusa that game, high confidence for them.
Nv.int was fail. 4 minutes bottom free farm for Sentinel while you're underleveled... fun midgame. They only had one good stun in the form of Witch Doctor and everything else was good Burst Damage. Passive farming yes, but why bother to lose a lead with a stronger disable lineup and a Medusa? At the point Medusa went go to bottom they really couldn't stop her as they were way too behind, unless EHOME slipped a hell of a lot. They probably knew as long as they didn't make huge mistakes they had the game. The TA pick didn't really fuck them over as much as bad lane choices.
DTS, maybe, but effective Lion and other picks stopped them. Group stage game: Visage CM Storm WD Medusa hard to beat...
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I thought a particularly revealing game was one where DTS went all traditional "asian" picks against another euro team (MYM?). When you looked at the actual execution, performance was just plain shoddy in comparison. Cs figures were basically halved, and heroes like drow were getting core items almost 10 minutes later than with chinese players against chinese teams. Granted, they still rolled their opponents, but overall it just lacked the efficiency and finesse you expect from teams like ehome.
Oh... and here's a poorly translated journal entry from EHome's DC:
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/thread/569924-conclusion-written-by-eh-dc-trans
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On July 05 2010 09:42 Ack1027 wrote:
Its kinda nice to see an actual pro team play out the conclusion I came to when I played competitive dota. If you have 5 players who can succeed in every role you will absolutely dominate. Ehome didn't drop a single game. It's kinda a shame that it had to be a Chinese team simply because they are locked into their own ladder and inhouse culture so there is no available history or replays of these players [ not to mention weird ass names like aaa and j and numbers ] I would have much preferred it to be a euro team so there was more transparency but it just seems like that can never happen due to ego and inertia.
Weird ass names are usually Chinese meanings or acronyms. J = KingJ, AAA= burning I have no idea how he came up with his AAA name.
ZSMJ and YYF are both acronyms for a Chinese saying a lot of them are... zsmj is footsteps mystery (I forget wtf it was) and YYF is maple leaf something...
2009 is the year the guy graduated from university  , for the rest of the numbers I don't know.
snoy dc gk... no idea wtf these mean
longdd no idea... not to mention he tore his team apart. Amazing, Dg.c and YaphetS only left after some ridiculous happenings during the ESWC qualifiers. You can really see the huge difference in mentality between Euro and especially NA players just from this story.
There's a good amount of people who play CDEC but not enough. There's plenty of competitive history from Chinese now but yeah you don't get replays of CDEC very often like EEDL and DP replays. The recent matches with EHOME vs Nv.cn were actually pretty revealing.
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Watching these DotA games as a player who converted to HoN, I'm very impressed! I'm a little bit surprised to see Drow picked so often, but I guess her + agi and manta must be rape. Silence and epic harass and chasing doesn't hurt either. Funny though, it doesn't look like she's undergone many changes, but when I left DotA, no one gave a shit about Drow lol.
One thing I've noticed is that there are SO MANY tri-lanes. That rarely happens in HoN. But it seems like no team feels confident 2v3ing, and as soon as another comes into that lane, the other team responds by bringing another of their own. This makes the other lanes more vulnerable, and creates a lot of action early on, which is definitely welcome. I wonder why this isn't more popular in HoN?
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I haven't watched many games with them, but this game on honcast: http://hon.esportmedia.com/video/2010/07/02/friday-in-house-game-1-2
ran a trilane fairly successfully, if you're interested in seeing such a game. I didn't watch the whole game, though. Match ID is 6116854 if you prefer replay. Heroes used were Behemoth, Andromeda, and Plague Rider. (Earthshaker, VS, and Lich if you're a curious DotA-er.)
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Yeah, that's one instance. You really have to search for HoN games with tri-lanes. From watching the ESWC, it seems the opposite is true for DotA. For two games that are very alike, you'd think that a tactic like that would carry over, but it seems more successful in DotA? Most of the heroes that seem to trilane often, like Andro, Glacius, Voodoo, Behe, etc. are all ported as well.
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On July 05 2010 08:06 Amnesia wrote:
Seriously, I went down from like 1600 to 1450 in like a course of two days now. wtf am I supposed to do? I try joining 1500/1550+ games and I get kicked, and in like 1300-1600 games I just get straight up raped because my team is just absolute garbage.
-___--------------
1450?
i wish i had that psr >.<
if u rly wanna get back to 1600, u cud lend me ur acct for a day or two.... :D
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On July 05 2010 12:42 Antifate wrote:
Yeah, that's one instance. You really have to search for HoN games with tri-lanes. From watching the ESWC, it seems the opposite is true for DotA. For two games that are very alike, you'd think that a tactic like that would carry over, but it seems more successful in DotA? Most of the heroes that seem to trilane often, like Andro, Glacius, Voodoo, Behe, etc. are all ported as well.
I don't really play HoN but usually with Trilanes you also need 2 solo heroes that can lane well and possibly carry.
Edit:
Drow is played because of massive damage. Chinese like to play her very ricer by getting Lv 1 Frost Arrow and maybe Lv 1 Silence and maxing out stats ASAP while leveling Aura, so by the time midgame comes around with Agi Treads, HotD, Manta you have a hero that spits out 160 damage per shot and 250 by late game (30 minutes) with Manta, BKB. Painful hero.
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On July 05 2010 12:49 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 12:42 Antifate wrote:
Yeah, that's one instance. You really have to search for HoN games with tri-lanes. From watching the ESWC, it seems the opposite is true for DotA. For two games that are very alike, you'd think that a tactic like that would carry over, but it seems more successful in DotA? Most of the heroes that seem to trilane often, like Andro, Glacius, Voodoo, Behe, etc. are all ported as well. I don't really play HoN but usually with Trilanes you also need 2 solo heroes that can lane well and possibly carry.
They used Thunderbringer (Zeus) mid and Soul Reaper (necrolyte? necro something) for 1v2.
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On July 05 2010 12:52 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 12:49 rabidch wrote:On July 05 2010 12:42 Antifate wrote:
Yeah, that's one instance. You really have to search for HoN games with tri-lanes. From watching the ESWC, it seems the opposite is true for DotA. For two games that are very alike, you'd think that a tactic like that would carry over, but it seems more successful in DotA? Most of the heroes that seem to trilane often, like Andro, Glacius, Voodoo, Behe, etc. are all ported as well. I don't really play HoN but usually with Trilanes you also need 2 solo heroes that can lane well and possibly carry. They used Thunderbringer (Zeus) mid and Soul Reaper (necrolyte? necro something) for 1v2.
There's a lot of heroes that can be used even in HoN. But Zeus mid is never done in competitive DotA anymore, maybe non serious games.
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Thunderbringer mid is getting more common than it was a few months ago - he's still not top tier, but not a bad pick anymore.
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Does anyone know why I'm consistently getting over 500 ping in games now? I really can't figure out why, it just happened one day and now HoN is almost unplayable
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On July 05 2010 12:42 Antifate wrote:
For two games that are very alike, you'd think that a tactic like that would carry over, but it seems more successful in DotA?
In the competitive aspect, this is not so true. DotA and Hon are vastly different due to creep pull and aggro tendencies, tower targeting mechanism, jungle/neut pull, and dota still having many unique skills and heroes over Hon. Also almost every hero in Hon has as good of a last hit animation as the best animations in dota. Some stats are also different. But I think the main reason Hon doesn't use tri-lanes like dota has recently is simply due to the fact that top hon players are old american and euro players who are stuck in habit and haven't had to deal with chinese players who analyze the shit out of the game and come at you with this in-your-face style where they make you, make a decision.
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EPT
