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On May 18 2011 01:53 Judicator wrote:
Good decision-making isn't skill dependent.
WRONG!
and if you find your expectations to be different from reality, i dont think the term very good monkey is mild enough.
On May 18 2011 02:01 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from. I agree with your response to him actually so I'm not trying to argue here or pick at semantics. In regards to your post, good decisions are based on teamplay and synergy. However, I would argue that a good player will make good decisions after he accounts for all the available knowledge. Situation 1: Good player makes ' good decisions ' based off what his good teammates do ' right '. Situation 2: Good player realizes he is playing with baddies and adjusts his play so he can get farmed himself or do what absolutely needs to get done to win the game [ if that is his goal in a pub ] So you see, regardless of your teammate's skill level, you as an individual can always do the ' good ' decision. You cannot depend on pubbers to do their job right, but knowing this information will help you make a better decision. As for doing this in pubs will get you raped....there's just no application for that at any level Cheers 
thats basically what i was trying to say, apparently it came across differently.
the reason i talked about the "good decision" is that it is, for a lot of less experienced people, not known to be very different when going from a high-level game to a lower level. comments like "all you can do is farm" come to mind.
oh, and
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On May 18 2011 02:14 Glull wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 01:53 Judicator wrote:
Good decision-making isn't skill dependent. WRONG! and if you find your expectations to be different from reality, i dont think the term very good monkey is mild enough. Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 02:01 Ack1027 wrote:On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from. I agree with your response to him actually so I'm not trying to argue here or pick at semantics. In regards to your post, good decisions are based on teamplay and synergy. However, I would argue that a good player will make good decisions after he accounts for all the available knowledge. Situation 1: Good player makes ' good decisions ' based off what his good teammates do ' right '. Situation 2: Good player realizes he is playing with baddies and adjusts his play so he can get farmed himself or do what absolutely needs to get done to win the game [ if that is his goal in a pub ] So you see, regardless of your teammate's skill level, you as an individual can always do the ' good ' decision. You cannot depend on pubbers to do their job right, but knowing this information will help you make a better decision. As for doing this in pubs will get you raped....there's just no application for that at any level Cheers thats basically what i was trying to say, apparently it came across differently. the reason i talked about the "good decision" is that it is, for a lot of less experienced people, not known to be very different when going from a high-level game to a lower level. comments like "all you can do is farm" come to mind. oh, and
Which again has no bearing on your decision-making skills, if you make good decisions, you make good decisions, it doesn't matter if you're low skill or high skill.
If you want to make the distinction that the term has different interpretations/results at different skill levels, fine. But again, it really has 0 bearing on actually making the correct choice in any given situation as Ack pointed out.
Edit:
The classic example in DotA and probably HoN are the retards who always try so hard to harass at the opportunity cost of their farm.
They can be really good harassers, but pay dearly for it when the correct decision to farm the lane. Examples: See Vigoss, Travaka.
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On May 18 2011 02:36 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 02:14 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:53 Judicator wrote:
Good decision-making isn't skill dependent. WRONG! and if you find your expectations to be different from reality, i dont think the term very good monkey is mild enough. On May 18 2011 02:01 Ack1027 wrote:On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from. I agree with your response to him actually so I'm not trying to argue here or pick at semantics. In regards to your post, good decisions are based on teamplay and synergy. However, I would argue that a good player will make good decisions after he accounts for all the available knowledge. Situation 1: Good player makes ' good decisions ' based off what his good teammates do ' right '. Situation 2: Good player realizes he is playing with baddies and adjusts his play so he can get farmed himself or do what absolutely needs to get done to win the game [ if that is his goal in a pub ] So you see, regardless of your teammate's skill level, you as an individual can always do the ' good ' decision. You cannot depend on pubbers to do their job right, but knowing this information will help you make a better decision. As for doing this in pubs will get you raped....there's just no application for that at any level Cheers thats basically what i was trying to say, apparently it came across differently. the reason i talked about the "good decision" is that it is, for a lot of less experienced people, not known to be very different when going from a high-level game to a lower level. comments like "all you can do is farm" come to mind. oh, and Which again has no bearing on your decision-making skills, if you make good decisions, you make good decisions, it doesn't matter if you're low skill or high skill. If you want to make the distinction that the term has different interpretations/results at different skill levels, fine. But again, it really has 0 bearing on actually making the correct choice in any given situation as Ack pointed out. Edit: The classic example in DotA and probably HoN are the retards who always try so hard to harass at the opportunity cost of their farm. They can be really good harassers, but pay dearly for it when the correct decision to farm the lane. Examples: See Vigoss, Travaka.
I think it's more of when you're doing things that relate to your allies when things change based on skill level. Initiation is the biggest example I can think of. When you're playing with pubs of a lower level you have to be really careful about how you initiate and have to really read your ally's 'body language'. Otherwise you're likely to initiate and your team will have been moving back or unprepared to follow and then you're stuck in the middle of a stunned enemy team with no support. The same applies to setting up ganks, juking, or turning around to save allies. You need to read what your allies are going to do so you can properly make the best decisions. When your allies are doing different things or things that aren't optimal then your decisions change from what you'd see a pro doing.
My #1 rule for pubs is to never do anything that causes my safety to rely on my allies reacting a certain way unless it's impossible for my allies to anything besides what I'm expecting.
Sometimes by 15-30 minutes in I'll break that rule if I have a good read on my ally though.
Really it's still just a matter of making good decisions that are universally good, but the situations you find yourself in for a pub/low level game are a lot different than a high level game.
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So big ass summer coming up after my exams. I currently play Dota on occasion like a game once every 2-3 days. Is HoN worth it or should I just play a bunch of dota instead :D ? Also do you actually play people of your skill level in HoN? Cause atm in Dota publics are just so bloody random, and I find it very hard to get even games.
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On May 18 2011 02:54 Benjef wrote:
So big ass summer coming up after my exams. I currently play Dota on occasion like a game once every 2-3 days. Is HoN worth it or should I just play a bunch of dota instead :D ? Also do you actually play people of your skill level in HoN? Cause atm in Dota publics are just so bloody random, and I find it very hard to get even games.
The matchmaking/rating is pretty good for finding reasonable games though there's still variance and a fair share of stupid people. I think it's the #1 reason to play HoN over DotA.
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On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from.
Exactly what I'm talking about. For instance a lot of hero builds are predicated on your ally/lane partner/etc doing his job somewhat properly. For a perfect example....last night. I random Magmus, take top lane(with guide open on second monitor)....opponents are Flux and the hammerfist guy. My "lane partner".....goes mid with the mid player, despite everyone on my team screaming at him to go top.. and even then manages to die 3 times. I finally convince him to come top with me....by that time I'm level 4 with a death, and low hp, he has 3 deaths, and is at level 2 still and my lane opponents are levels 5 and 6. He runs right into them and dies again. In that situation....playing Magmus is entirely different than described in the "guides" i read, which assume you're playing with someone on the positive side of the IQ chart. All these cute build orders, "synergy" crap, last hitting, wards, etc meant nothing to me, because I'm playing with people that think 2 mid is a cool strat.
I'd love to play with more competent people but I'm still really bad myself, and I highly doubt anyone wants to be burdened by a low-level player just out of the goodness of their heart. I am getting better. I had an accursed game where I was 2/1/14, I think.a Magmus game where I was 7/5/12, etc., which is a vast improvement over where I was even a few days ago. But playing with terrible teamates really doesn't help the learning process.
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I'd recommend you play ranged champions Sm3agol. Simply put it's going to be easier for you to influence a game as a ranged champion because even if your lane-mates are pants on head retarded you can still stay alive, last hit and farm, and eventually be well off enough to gank and stuff. Melees can be so dependent on their laning partners that it's tough to make sure things go your way. As almost any range character and a low opponent skill level you should be able to get out of the early game with 0 deaths and some farm, maybe 1 death in some situations where you're really outmatched in your lane.
Once you're out of that really really bad MMR range then you can play melees and not have to worry about it.
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On May 18 2011 03:38 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from. Exactly what I'm talking about. For instance a lot of hero builds are predicated on your ally/lane partner/etc doing his job somewhat properly. For a perfect example....last night. I random Magmus, take top lane(with guide open on second monitor)....opponents are Flux and the hammerfist guy. My "lane partner".....goes mid with the mid player, despite everyone on my team screaming at him to go top.. and even then manages to die 3 times. I finally convince him to come top with me....by that time I'm level 4 with a death, and low hp, he has 3 deaths, and is at level 2 still and my lane opponents are levels 5 and 6. He runs right into them and dies again. In that situation....playing Magmus is entirely different than described in the "guides" i read, which assume you're playing with someone on the positive side of the IQ chart. All these cute build orders, "synergy" crap, last hitting, wards, etc meant nothing to me, because I'm playing with people that think 2 mid is a cool strat. I'd love to play with more competent people but I'm still really bad myself, and I highly doubt anyone wants to be burdened by a low-level player just out of the goodness of their heart. I am getting better. I had an accursed game where I was 2/1/14, I think.a Magmus game where I was 7/5/12, etc., which is a vast improvement over where I was even a few days ago. But playing with terrible teamates really doesn't help the learning process.
of course it helps - but not if you ignore it and move on. and you still havent managed to ask what you actually would have needed to know - "what can i do if my team forces me to lane solo top with magmus against two heroes, here is the match id"
instead you essentially ask for guides and make up stuff about the guides you found being for high level play only, which is neither true nor relevant for the problem you encountered.
oh, and 2 mid is a pretty damn cool strat in my book.
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On May 18 2011 03:59 Glull wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 03:38 Sm3agol wrote:On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from. Exactly what I'm talking about. For instance a lot of hero builds are predicated on your ally/lane partner/etc doing his job somewhat properly. For a perfect example....last night. I random Magmus, take top lane(with guide open on second monitor)....opponents are Flux and the hammerfist guy. My "lane partner".....goes mid with the mid player, despite everyone on my team screaming at him to go top.. and even then manages to die 3 times. I finally convince him to come top with me....by that time I'm level 4 with a death, and low hp, he has 3 deaths, and is at level 2 still and my lane opponents are levels 5 and 6. He runs right into them and dies again. In that situation....playing Magmus is entirely different than described in the "guides" i read, which assume you're playing with someone on the positive side of the IQ chart. All these cute build orders, "synergy" crap, last hitting, wards, etc meant nothing to me, because I'm playing with people that think 2 mid is a cool strat. I'd love to play with more competent people but I'm still really bad myself, and I highly doubt anyone wants to be burdened by a low-level player just out of the goodness of their heart. I am getting better. I had an accursed game where I was 2/1/14, I think.a Magmus game where I was 7/5/12, etc., which is a vast improvement over where I was even a few days ago. But playing with terrible teamates really doesn't help the learning process. of course it helps - but not if you ignore it and move on. and you still havent managed to ask what you actually would have needed to know - "what can i do if my team forces me to lane solo top with magmus against two heroes, here is the match id" instead you essentially ask for guides and make up stuff about the guides you found being for high level play only, which is neither true nor relevant for the problem you encountered. oh, and 2 mid is a pretty damn cool strat in my book.
Not when it forces mag to solo top 
In that situation just be thankful it's a pseudo-double melee lane. They have a stun and a pull, but there's no way you should die at your level if you're constantly running yourself potions. They stun/pull combo? Stun > bath. No one is going to buy counterwards or dust that early in the game at your level, and if they do just stun > run away and you should be safe. Make sure the creep camp is warded and you'll want a flying chick asap. When you hit 6/7 you need to go start ganking, because you're not going to get ANY farm up top and you'll have maybe 1/2 creep kills with them getting a fair amount of denies.
Edit: I'm assuming you were legion, if you're hb you won't be able to get a lot of ck but you should be able to get more than 1 or 2.
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On May 18 2011 03:59 Glull wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 03:38 Sm3agol wrote:On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from. Exactly what I'm talking about. For instance a lot of hero builds are predicated on your ally/lane partner/etc doing his job somewhat properly. For a perfect example....last night. I random Magmus, take top lane(with guide open on second monitor)....opponents are Flux and the hammerfist guy. My "lane partner".....goes mid with the mid player, despite everyone on my team screaming at him to go top.. and even then manages to die 3 times. I finally convince him to come top with me....by that time I'm level 4 with a death, and low hp, he has 3 deaths, and is at level 2 still and my lane opponents are levels 5 and 6. He runs right into them and dies again. In that situation....playing Magmus is entirely different than described in the "guides" i read, which assume you're playing with someone on the positive side of the IQ chart. All these cute build orders, "synergy" crap, last hitting, wards, etc meant nothing to me, because I'm playing with people that think 2 mid is a cool strat. I'd love to play with more competent people but I'm still really bad myself, and I highly doubt anyone wants to be burdened by a low-level player just out of the goodness of their heart. I am getting better. I had an accursed game where I was 2/1/14, I think.a Magmus game where I was 7/5/12, etc., which is a vast improvement over where I was even a few days ago. But playing with terrible teamates really doesn't help the learning process. of course it helps - but not if you ignore it and move on. and you still havent managed to ask what you actually would have needed to know - "what can i do if my team forces me to lane solo top with magmus against two heroes, here is the match id" instead you essentially ask for guides and make up stuff about the guides you found being for high level play only, which is neither true nor relevant for the problem you encountered. oh, and 2 mid is a pretty damn cool strat in my book.
Really?
The situation described above is just one of a myriad of retarded situations you'll find yourself in at the terrible level. And learning what to do in many of them is completely useless as far as getting better because once you get beyond retard range, you'll never encounter that situation again. I mean seriously, why would I ask that question? It's happened to me twice in about 15 or so games. In one I had a ranged hero, so i was fine for the most part. Why would I waste time asking about what to do in a situation that's not going to happen ever, once I get somewhat decent?
Better advice is the "only use ranged heros when starting out". Or "Don't play Magmus unless you know your laning partner has used a computer before".
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On May 18 2011 04:17 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 03:59 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 03:38 Sm3agol wrote:On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from. Exactly what I'm talking about. For instance a lot of hero builds are predicated on your ally/lane partner/etc doing his job somewhat properly. For a perfect example....last night. I random Magmus, take top lane(with guide open on second monitor)....opponents are Flux and the hammerfist guy. My "lane partner".....goes mid with the mid player, despite everyone on my team screaming at him to go top.. and even then manages to die 3 times. I finally convince him to come top with me....by that time I'm level 4 with a death, and low hp, he has 3 deaths, and is at level 2 still and my lane opponents are levels 5 and 6. He runs right into them and dies again. In that situation....playing Magmus is entirely different than described in the "guides" i read, which assume you're playing with someone on the positive side of the IQ chart. All these cute build orders, "synergy" crap, last hitting, wards, etc meant nothing to me, because I'm playing with people that think 2 mid is a cool strat. I'd love to play with more competent people but I'm still really bad myself, and I highly doubt anyone wants to be burdened by a low-level player just out of the goodness of their heart. I am getting better. I had an accursed game where I was 2/1/14, I think.a Magmus game where I was 7/5/12, etc., which is a vast improvement over where I was even a few days ago. But playing with terrible teamates really doesn't help the learning process. of course it helps - but not if you ignore it and move on. and you still havent managed to ask what you actually would have needed to know - "what can i do if my team forces me to lane solo top with magmus against two heroes, here is the match id" instead you essentially ask for guides and make up stuff about the guides you found being for high level play only, which is neither true nor relevant for the problem you encountered. oh, and 2 mid is a pretty damn cool strat in my book. Really? The situation described above is just one of a myriad of retarded situations you'll find yourself in at the terrible level. And learning what to do in many of them is completely useless as far as getting better because once you get beyond retard range, you'll never encounter that situation again. I mean seriously, why would I ask that question? It's happened to me twice in about 15 or so games. In one I had a ranged hero, so i was fine for the most part. Why would I waste time asking about what to do in a situation that's not going to happen ever, once I get somewhat decent? Better advice is the "only use ranged heros when starting out". Or "Don't play Magmus unless you know your laning partner has used a computer before".
You're wrong here. Learning what to do in this situation will make you a better player than having a good teammate would. People who learn to rely on having a good lanemate or good teammates will never truly excel. I do amazing when I play with my good friends, because I learned playing with them. When I play with my bad friends or pubs who are bad, then my play goes to shit because I get so angry.
My friend James learned to play solo and learned to deal with the bads and he's the better player of the two of us because of it. Also, bad shit will happen to you all the way up to 1800, and sometimes even there.
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On May 18 2011 04:17 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 03:59 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 03:38 Sm3agol wrote:On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from. Exactly what I'm talking about. For instance a lot of hero builds are predicated on your ally/lane partner/etc doing his job somewhat properly. For a perfect example....last night. I random Magmus, take top lane(with guide open on second monitor)....opponents are Flux and the hammerfist guy. My "lane partner".....goes mid with the mid player, despite everyone on my team screaming at him to go top.. and even then manages to die 3 times. I finally convince him to come top with me....by that time I'm level 4 with a death, and low hp, he has 3 deaths, and is at level 2 still and my lane opponents are levels 5 and 6. He runs right into them and dies again. In that situation....playing Magmus is entirely different than described in the "guides" i read, which assume you're playing with someone on the positive side of the IQ chart. All these cute build orders, "synergy" crap, last hitting, wards, etc meant nothing to me, because I'm playing with people that think 2 mid is a cool strat. I'd love to play with more competent people but I'm still really bad myself, and I highly doubt anyone wants to be burdened by a low-level player just out of the goodness of their heart. I am getting better. I had an accursed game where I was 2/1/14, I think.a Magmus game where I was 7/5/12, etc., which is a vast improvement over where I was even a few days ago. But playing with terrible teamates really doesn't help the learning process. of course it helps - but not if you ignore it and move on. and you still havent managed to ask what you actually would have needed to know - "what can i do if my team forces me to lane solo top with magmus against two heroes, here is the match id" instead you essentially ask for guides and make up stuff about the guides you found being for high level play only, which is neither true nor relevant for the problem you encountered. oh, and 2 mid is a pretty damn cool strat in my book. Really? The situation described above is just one of a myriad of retarded situations you'll find yourself in at the terrible level. And learning what to do in many of them is completely useless as far as getting better because once you get beyond retard range, you'll never encounter that situation again. I mean seriously, why would I ask that question? It's happened to me twice in about 15 or so games. In one I had a ranged hero, so i was fine for the most part. Why would I waste time asking about what to do in a situation that's not going to happen ever, once I get somewhat decent? Better advice is the "only use ranged heros when starting out". Or "Don't play Magmus unless you know your laning partner has used a computer before".
nope, completely wrong line of thinking. being able to judge a situation properly, no matter what the situation is, is a very good indicator of skill. in your example (who is hammerfist? ill guess sven), first of all you shouldn't die at all, considering steam bath > their entire kill potential. so having a death in that lane is already something you can work on
you think it will never happen again? what does that mean exactly, you think you'll never be behind/getting raped in a lane? hmm i can think of many situations where that can happen in "beyond retard range" as you put it, such as getting fb'd in adventure mode, an unexpected lv1 gank, etc.
yeah, the gap will not be as large as a lvl 4 solo against a lvl 6 duo, but the players will be better so they will be able to take more advantage of a smaller gap. it's a pretty simple concept: give a baddie a large advantage and he can throw it away. give a good person a tiny advantage and he'll grind it out to win the game.
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Well said. One of the hardest lessons to learn in DotA/HoN is that every death is your own fault, and even beyond that many of your teammate's deaths are your own fault. Until you take on huge amounts of personal responsibility for your team's performance you won't improve because you'll just blame things on them. Teammates failing their lanes? Learn to farm better so your team is still alright. Solo as a melee who shouldn't be? Don't die and punish the other team's lack of ability to press their advantage. Get ganked? Your fault look at the minimap more. Ally gets ganked? your fault, look at the minimap more and warn him. Ally doesn't turn around and help you? Your fault for not reading his play right. You don't turn around and help your teammate survive? Your fault for not being more helpful. Team composition sucks? Your fault for not trying to fix the composition as best you could, encouraging people to make better picks, or outplaying your opponents enough to cover the disadvantage.
Blaming losses on teammates is the same as blaming SC2 losses on balance.
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sm3agol if you are able to admit that you are a noob at the game then you are half way there.
Just go a little further and listen to the people in the thread lol..
Open your mind to the possibility that you might be wrong and people who have played far longer in more situations than you ever will are offering you valid advice.
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On May 18 2011 03:47 Logo wrote:
I'd recommend you play ranged champions Sm3agol. Simply put it's going to be easier for you to influence a game as a ranged champion because even if your lane-mates are pants on head retarded you can still stay alive, last hit and farm, and eventually be well off enough to gank and stuff. Melees can be so dependent on their laning partners that it's tough to make sure things go your way. As almost any range character and a low opponent skill level you should be able to get out of the early game with 0 deaths and some farm, maybe 1 death in some situations where you're really outmatched in your lane.
Once you're out of that really really bad MMR range then you can play melees and not have to worry about it.
This is pretty good advice. Going an orthodox melee hero in a sidelane is very risky. I never play melee except if a) I can rely on roaming almost entirely if the lane is shit b) I solo mid or c) I'm comfortable with my team. You could argue that you're missing out on aspects of learning; but stalling completely in a sidelane with a melee hero allows you to have much less impact on the game and as a result you'll be learning less over all. Pick heroes that are useful regardless of their farm-status, that is spell-based heroes.
On May 18 2011 04:54 Logo wrote:
Well said. One of the hardest lessons to learn in DotA/HoN is that every death is your own fault, and even beyond that many of your teammate's deaths are your own fault. Until you take on huge amounts of personal responsibility for your team's performance you won't improve because you'll just blame things on them. Teammates failing their lanes? Learn to farm better so your team is still alright. Solo as a melee who shouldn't be? Don't die and punish the other team's lack of ability to press their advantage. Get ganked? Your fault look at the minimap more. Ally gets ganked? your fault, look at the minimap more and warn him. Ally doesn't turn around and help you? Your fault for not reading his play right. You don't turn around and help your teammate survive? Your fault for not being more helpful. Team composition sucks? Your fault for not trying to fix the composition as best you could, encouraging people to make better picks, or outplaying your opponents enough to cover the disadvantage.
Blaming losses on teammates is the same as blaming SC2 losses on balance.
This is the single most important tip of them all. You might rage in-game at your team because that's how you are, but don't ever adopt the mindset that your team should have been different/done x/played better. There's always something you can do better, and often something that could have changed the outcome of the game.
Also: Anyone EU-based that still plays DotA should get on iCCup, its probably the best matchmaking system that any "pub league" has. That is, if you can stand the general lack of communication (90%+ russian-speaking players) and the latency of the bot (~50 ms from northern/central europe, nothing really)
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If I had methods to pay for this game I would - not because it's that much better than DotA (although I admit my limited exposure to HoN doesn't let me to assess all the facts perfectly, maybe not a fair comparison), but because the matchmaking does a pretty ok job, the idiots are really kept to a minimum. Honestly it's a lot easier to find a lot better games than in pub DotA (GGC, or even SIGs at dota-league.com. I wouldn't even mention pubs, those are absolutely atrocious). This alone makes the purchase worth it, if you can afford the timesink 
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Just my 2 cents about newbies picking up HoN. I think that learning to last hit well and staring at your minimap are probably the most important thing to learn besides knowing what each hero's skills do. If you try to learn fancy tactics with your lane partners you generally put too much trust into them doing the right thing when you are just starting out. You will pick up on what items to buy as you play, just watch what other people are buying when they play their hero. So focus on what I call the mechanics of HoN and last hit well, and watch your minimap.
This is coming from a new player to HoN during the beta and now I'm a fairly proficient player at 1800s games. gl hf
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On May 18 2011 01:53 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 01:51 Glull wrote:On May 18 2011 01:17 Ack1027 wrote:Top players don't go into pubs thinking, oh well I can't use my last hitting skills or good decisions because this is a pub. i would be careful there - a lot of "good decisions" in high-level play are based on teamplay and synergy, the lower you go, the more you cannot rely on your team to actually do its job "right" by high-level standards. "doing this in pubs will get you raped" is of course exaggerating, but unlike a high-level game you have nine people to keep in mind, not five. player skill just has much more emphasis in the decision making process for high players in low games, i guess thats where the saying is from. WRONG! Good decision-making isn't skill dependent. If you're doing things based on your expectations rather than reality, well then you aren't a very good player in the first place, but rather a very good monkey.
its experience dependent, which has some correlation with skill (and talent*).
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the only real flaw in matchmaking is that it does not work for high mmr - you either wait forever or get a game with players ranging from 1950-1750 in the same game, which isnt exactly what most good players are looking for.
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EPT
