On April 27 2011 05:14 Wala.Revolution wrote: Yes there are optimal reactions to non-optimal plays from your allies.
However there's a difference between your allies knowing who to initiate with and the subtle spacing games.
There isn't a difference. You're always changing your play based on how your teammates are playing. If your behemoth can't get a perfect ult off to start a teamfight, you start teamfights differently.
You adapt to how the game is being played. That's how you win pubs.
Edit:
On April 27 2011 05:15 Judicator wrote:
On April 27 2011 05:11 Durak wrote: Not sure how this "carry yourself until you have higher rating and therefore decent teammates" perception came from. You will never get to a point in pubs where your teammates play how you think they should.
The majority of people are bad and you have to deal with it. Those who aren't bad (either relative to you or just terrible) may not even play the way you expect. That's not to say they're playing poorly; they have different tactics at any point in the game.
What you should be learning in pubs and what will serve you throughout your non-competitive HoN is reacting. You need to be able to react quickly and properly in any given situation. When your teammate decides to intiate, even if you don't think it's optimal, you need to immediately assess the situation and decide what you should do. Sometimes that involves cutting your loses by leaving your teammate to die when he initiates poorly in a 1500 MMR pub. Sometimes that involves going in yourself even if you're not in the perfect position. Sometimes you go halfway and return temporarily to stun and get your dumb teammate out.
What's even better than reacting after the fact is to preemptively prepare for situations. You should be watching what your teammates are doing and thinking about what they might do. "If my teammate decides to initiate right now, am I in a good position?" or "If I initiate now, is my teammate close enough to use his skills?" Port keying into four guys and getting them all in your tempest ult may be a terrible play if your team isn't close enough to do anything.
The nature of pubs is that you will always have randoms on your team. You will not know how those randoms play. You need to be flexible with your play and not some rigid noob who thinks he knows best.
This is a great way to pick up some of the shittiest habits in HoN or DotA. Play how you're suppose to play, screw the pubs, and understand why you adapt and how you would have played that differently if they weren't terribads. The latter is more important than trying to react to dumb shit, why? Because it puts you in terrible situations that you had 0 business being in.
Understanding the best thing to do in a situation is completely different from what you should do in a pub. You should be playing to win with what you have not whining "oh if only my teammates were better and did this and this -- I wouldn't have died." Blaming your team is how you fail to improve and that's exactly what 90% of HoN players do.
So by adapting to the shittiest players of a game is the way to improve? Really?
It's not whining, its the truth, the sooner a player who isn't braindead and can be honest with themselves about the reality of their situation, the sooner they'll improve. As long as the player trying to improve is honest with themselves when they say "you are all terribads and we're losing cause of X", then the better they'll improve. That's developing the proper situational awareness and game sense/understanding, not some bullshit where you have to play down to their levels because that's "adapting".
Otherwise, you can enjoy hitting that same exact wall at a higher level with some glorified pub stars.
So it is just a matter of head against wall until you reach that sort of game sense and awareness right?
That's what I figure anyway. I'm having decent success with Hag at least, she's really fun to play and as long as some guy on the team knows how to stun a few people I generally do "well".
Funny though I realize how much wards help. When I don't play a support I get no wards and a black minimap isn't fun at all. Slowly but surely I'm definitely reacting better than a week ago at least.
On April 27 2011 05:14 Wala.Revolution wrote: Yes there are optimal reactions to non-optimal plays from your allies.
However there's a difference between your allies knowing who to initiate with and the subtle spacing games.
There isn't a difference. You're always changing your play based on how your teammates are playing. If your behemoth can't get a perfect ult off to start a teamfight, you start teamfights differently.
You adapt to how the game is being played. That's how you win pubs.
Edit:
On April 27 2011 05:15 Judicator wrote:
On April 27 2011 05:11 Durak wrote: Not sure how this "carry yourself until you have higher rating and therefore decent teammates" perception came from. You will never get to a point in pubs where your teammates play how you think they should.
The majority of people are bad and you have to deal with it. Those who aren't bad (either relative to you or just terrible) may not even play the way you expect. That's not to say they're playing poorly; they have different tactics at any point in the game.
What you should be learning in pubs and what will serve you throughout your non-competitive HoN is reacting. You need to be able to react quickly and properly in any given situation. When your teammate decides to intiate, even if you don't think it's optimal, you need to immediately assess the situation and decide what you should do. Sometimes that involves cutting your loses by leaving your teammate to die when he initiates poorly in a 1500 MMR pub. Sometimes that involves going in yourself even if you're not in the perfect position. Sometimes you go halfway and return temporarily to stun and get your dumb teammate out.
What's even better than reacting after the fact is to preemptively prepare for situations. You should be watching what your teammates are doing and thinking about what they might do. "If my teammate decides to initiate right now, am I in a good position?" or "If I initiate now, is my teammate close enough to use his skills?" Port keying into four guys and getting them all in your tempest ult may be a terrible play if your team isn't close enough to do anything.
The nature of pubs is that you will always have randoms on your team. You will not know how those randoms play. You need to be flexible with your play and not some rigid noob who thinks he knows best.
This is a great way to pick up some of the shittiest habits in HoN or DotA. Play how you're suppose to play, screw the pubs, and understand why you adapt and how you would have played that differently if they weren't terribads. The latter is more important than trying to react to dumb shit, why? Because it puts you in terrible situations that you had 0 business being in.
Understanding the best thing to do in a situation is completely different from what you should do in a pub. You should be playing to win with what you have not whining "oh if only my teammates were better and did this and this -- I wouldn't have died." Blaming your team is how you fail to improve and that's exactly what 90% of HoN players do.
So by adapting to the shittiest players of a game is the way to improve? Really?
It's not whining, its the truth, the sooner a player who isn't braindead and can be honest with themselves about the reality of their situation, the sooner they'll improve. As long as the player trying to improve is honest with themselves when they say "you are all terribads and we're losing cause of X", then the better they'll improve. That's developing the proper situational awareness and game sense/understanding, not some bullshit where you have to play down to their levels because that's "adapting".
Otherwise, you can enjoy hitting that same exact wall at a higher level with some glorified pub stars.
So it is just a matter of head against wall until you reach that sort of game sense and awareness right?
That's what I figure anyway. I'm having decent success with Hag at least, she's really fun to play and as long as some guy on the team knows how to stun a few people I generally do "well".
Funny though I realize how much wards help. When I don't play a support I get no wards and a black minimap isn't fun at all. Slowly but surely I'm definitely reacting better than a week ago at least.
Its a matter of communication with dumbfucks and scrubs. You have to explicitly tell them why its wrong. Those who suck but are willing to listen won't fuck up as much for the rest of the game. Those who suck and don't/won't realize it will perpetually be shit the rest of the game. Once you figure out who is who, then you can formulate your own plans for your hero and what you need to do to minimize the stupidity on your team and maximize your effectiveness. There's no shame in losing as long as you played your best (honestly speaking here), fix your own shit the next time around and just think about whether you made the best decision.
But yes, expect dumbfucks and expect scrubs in pubs. Watch replays of top players and try to figure out their styles and most importantly their decision making process in situations and simply ask yourself would I have reacted the same way? That's not to say what pro players do is always right, but it helps to figure out your own strengths and weaknesses.
On April 27 2011 08:37 Judicator wrote: There's no shame in losing as long as you played your best (honestly speaking here), fix your own shit the next time around and just think about whether you made the best decision.
and
On April 27 2011 05:44 Judicator wrote: It's not whining, its the truth, the sooner a player who isn't braindead and can be honest with themselves about the reality of their situation, the sooner they'll improve. As long as the player trying to improve is honest with themselves when they say "you are all terribads and we're losing cause of X", then the better they'll improve. That's developing the proper situational awareness and game sense/understanding, not some bullshit where you have to play down to their levels because that's "adapting".
I completely agree but that's not conflicting with what I said. My advice is to avoid over-attributing blame to your team because very few people are "honest with themselves" by human nature. There are very few people who can accept fault for plays or even realize where the problem was. That's why they're bad and why they don't get better.
On April 27 2011 05:14 Wala.Revolution wrote: Yes there are optimal reactions to non-optimal plays from your allies.
However there's a difference between your allies knowing who to initiate with and the subtle spacing games.
There isn't a difference. You're always changing your play based on how your teammates are playing. If your behemoth can't get a perfect ult off to start a teamfight, you start teamfights differently.
You adapt to how the game is being played. That's how you win pubs.
Edit:
On April 27 2011 05:15 Judicator wrote:
On April 27 2011 05:11 Durak wrote: Not sure how this "carry yourself until you have higher rating and therefore decent teammates" perception came from. You will never get to a point in pubs where your teammates play how you think they should.
The majority of people are bad and you have to deal with it. Those who aren't bad (either relative to you or just terrible) may not even play the way you expect. That's not to say they're playing poorly; they have different tactics at any point in the game.
What you should be learning in pubs and what will serve you throughout your non-competitive HoN is reacting. You need to be able to react quickly and properly in any given situation. When your teammate decides to intiate, even if you don't think it's optimal, you need to immediately assess the situation and decide what you should do. Sometimes that involves cutting your loses by leaving your teammate to die when he initiates poorly in a 1500 MMR pub. Sometimes that involves going in yourself even if you're not in the perfect position. Sometimes you go halfway and return temporarily to stun and get your dumb teammate out.
What's even better than reacting after the fact is to preemptively prepare for situations. You should be watching what your teammates are doing and thinking about what they might do. "If my teammate decides to initiate right now, am I in a good position?" or "If I initiate now, is my teammate close enough to use his skills?" Port keying into four guys and getting them all in your tempest ult may be a terrible play if your team isn't close enough to do anything.
The nature of pubs is that you will always have randoms on your team. You will not know how those randoms play. You need to be flexible with your play and not some rigid noob who thinks he knows best.
This is a great way to pick up some of the shittiest habits in HoN or DotA. Play how you're suppose to play, screw the pubs, and understand why you adapt and how you would have played that differently if they weren't terribads. The latter is more important than trying to react to dumb shit, why? Because it puts you in terrible situations that you had 0 business being in.
Understanding the best thing to do in a situation is completely different from what you should do in a pub. You should be playing to win with what you have not whining "oh if only my teammates were better and did this and this -- I wouldn't have died." Blaming your team is how you fail to improve and that's exactly what 90% of HoN players do.
So by adapting to the shittiest players of a game is the way to improve? Really?
Yes because it's a skill you need even in competitive games. You're constantly adapting to choices your teammates make. That's how teamfights work. The majority of this is non-verbal and depends on you watching your teammates as well as your enemies.
You're implying that you'll pick up bad habits from being flexible in your gameplay and yet you also argue that you can also attribute mistakes objectively. I don't see how those can coexist. I think that saying that you can still attribute the bad position/whatever to your teammates while reacting to it in order to improve the outcome of that game. If you get bad habits from that, I don't see how you're also attributing mistakes objectively.
On April 27 2011 08:37 Judicator wrote: Once you figure out who is who, then you can formulate your own plans for your hero and what you need to do to minimize the stupidity on your team and maximize your effectiveness.
After disagreeing with me you state my exact point. I think we're having a communication problem here somewhere. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make: you need to change your play based on your team and not on some theoretical optimal play. You will win more games this way and you will also improve because you'll gain map awareness and stop mis-attributing blame.
I watch it every time it's on. Gotta catch every minute of Travitus playing HoN. That's what it means to be Travitus's #1 fanboy. <-------- #1 Travitus fanboy!!!!
On April 27 2011 05:14 Wala.Revolution wrote: Yes there are optimal reactions to non-optimal plays from your allies.
However there's a difference between your allies knowing who to initiate with and the subtle spacing games.
There isn't a difference. You're always changing your play based on how your teammates are playing. If your behemoth can't get a perfect ult off to start a teamfight, you start teamfights differently.
You adapt to how the game is being played. That's how you win pubs.
Edit:
On April 27 2011 05:15 Judicator wrote:
On April 27 2011 05:11 Durak wrote: Not sure how this "carry yourself until you have higher rating and therefore decent teammates" perception came from. You will never get to a point in pubs where your teammates play how you think they should.
The majority of people are bad and you have to deal with it. Those who aren't bad (either relative to you or just terrible) may not even play the way you expect. That's not to say they're playing poorly; they have different tactics at any point in the game.
What you should be learning in pubs and what will serve you throughout your non-competitive HoN is reacting. You need to be able to react quickly and properly in any given situation. When your teammate decides to intiate, even if you don't think it's optimal, you need to immediately assess the situation and decide what you should do. Sometimes that involves cutting your loses by leaving your teammate to die when he initiates poorly in a 1500 MMR pub. Sometimes that involves going in yourself even if you're not in the perfect position. Sometimes you go halfway and return temporarily to stun and get your dumb teammate out.
What's even better than reacting after the fact is to preemptively prepare for situations. You should be watching what your teammates are doing and thinking about what they might do. "If my teammate decides to initiate right now, am I in a good position?" or "If I initiate now, is my teammate close enough to use his skills?" Port keying into four guys and getting them all in your tempest ult may be a terrible play if your team isn't close enough to do anything.
The nature of pubs is that you will always have randoms on your team. You will not know how those randoms play. You need to be flexible with your play and not some rigid noob who thinks he knows best.
This is a great way to pick up some of the shittiest habits in HoN or DotA. Play how you're suppose to play, screw the pubs, and understand why you adapt and how you would have played that differently if they weren't terribads. The latter is more important than trying to react to dumb shit, why? Because it puts you in terrible situations that you had 0 business being in.
Understanding the best thing to do in a situation is completely different from what you should do in a pub. You should be playing to win with what you have not whining "oh if only my teammates were better and did this and this -- I wouldn't have died." Blaming your team is how you fail to improve and that's exactly what 90% of HoN players do.
So by adapting to the shittiest players of a game is the way to improve? Really?
It's not whining, its the truth, the sooner a player who isn't braindead and can be honest with themselves about the reality of their situation, the sooner they'll improve. As long as the player trying to improve is honest with themselves when they say "you are all terribads and we're losing cause of X", then the better they'll improve. That's developing the proper situational awareness and game sense/understanding, not some bullshit where you have to play down to their levels because that's "adapting".
Otherwise, you can enjoy hitting that same exact wall at a higher level with some glorified pub stars.
So it is just a matter of head against wall until you reach that sort of game sense and awareness right?
That's what I figure anyway. I'm having decent success with Hag at least, she's really fun to play and as long as some guy on the team knows how to stun a few people I generally do "well".
Funny though I realize how much wards help. When I don't play a support I get no wards and a black minimap isn't fun at all. Slowly but surely I'm definitely reacting better than a week ago at least.
I find that even if you dont play a support hero, you might as well get wards early game if no one else does. Even as a carry, they help you and your team out so much that you might as well. its better to drop that 100g than play with no map vision when you got a team of misers.
I know where youre coming from though. I bought HoN a couple weeks ago and dropped from 1500 to between 1100 and 1200. Been clawing my way back up since and im sitting at about 1470, and ive seen my fair share of games where we got like nymph or demented shaman on our team trying to farm gold for items instead of buying wards. Its pretty damn frustrating
Even as a carry, they help you and your team out so much that you might as well. its better to drop that 100g than play with no map vision when you got a team of misers.
Yeah playing solo mid and a pub you normally do have to buy your own courier and rune wards. Even though it takes away from your farm its better to have them in some form.
A suggestion for pubstomping I've heard of is learn how to farm the forest with Wildsoul/Warbeast and sit in there for 20-30 minutes. Teams at that level don't have the co-ordination to gank you and you can get very farmed at low risk.
that suggestion is horrible because it does not yield (much) improvement and punishes every single person with the misfortune of playing in the same team as you.
On April 27 2011 19:05 Glull wrote: that suggestion is horrible because it does not yield (much) improvement and punishes every single person with the misfortune of playing in the same team as you.
im sure he doesnt mean farming and completely ignoring your team. if enemy is pushing of course you should tp to the tower, or if someone nearby is getting ganked you should help out. but otherwise (and correct me if im wrong), wildsoul doesnt really have much utility early or mid game until he starts getting stacked with levels and items so isnt farming the ideal course of action for him early game?
On April 27 2011 19:05 Glull wrote: that suggestion is horrible because it does not yield (much) improvement and punishes every single person with the misfortune of playing in the same team as you.
And im fairly sure he meant pubstomping and not ranking/improving on one self
Yay, got in the in-house with Testie and went 14-11-29 on TB lol, 1340 MMR. Was a super fun game :D its always so much more fun to play with people that good
the term "pubstomping" is mostly used when people have no idea what they are talking about or want to accomplish, it doesnt surprise me much that some people question my response by hiding behind that word now.
@supamang: you can always gank with a wildsoul, he is actually pretty good at that - but thats not the issue. the issue is that bad players (which the suggestion is for) do not make these decisions, they stick to what they know or what they are told to do. and the suggestion tells them to jungle for half an hour and then either win or lose with the items they got together. that doesnt exactly encourage flexible thinking or being open-minded, and it does not yield much improvement because most factors of hon skill are not very important when jungling in low level games. (positioning, map awareness, lane control, timing)
On April 27 2011 08:37 Judicator wrote: There's no shame in losing as long as you played your best (honestly speaking here), fix your own shit the next time around and just think about whether you made the best decision.
On April 27 2011 05:44 Judicator wrote: It's not whining, its the truth, the sooner a player who isn't braindead and can be honest with themselves about the reality of their situation, the sooner they'll improve. As long as the player trying to improve is honest with themselves when they say "you are all terribads and we're losing cause of X", then the better they'll improve. That's developing the proper situational awareness and game sense/understanding, not some bullshit where you have to play down to their levels because that's "adapting".
I completely agree but that's not conflicting with what I said. My advice is to avoid over-attributing blame to your team because very few people are "honest with themselves" by human nature. There are very few people who can accept fault for plays or even realize where the problem was. That's why they're bad and why they don't get better.
On April 27 2011 05:14 Wala.Revolution wrote: Yes there are optimal reactions to non-optimal plays from your allies.
However there's a difference between your allies knowing who to initiate with and the subtle spacing games.
There isn't a difference. You're always changing your play based on how your teammates are playing. If your behemoth can't get a perfect ult off to start a teamfight, you start teamfights differently.
You adapt to how the game is being played. That's how you win pubs.
Edit:
On April 27 2011 05:15 Judicator wrote:
On April 27 2011 05:11 Durak wrote: Not sure how this "carry yourself until you have higher rating and therefore decent teammates" perception came from. You will never get to a point in pubs where your teammates play how you think they should.
The majority of people are bad and you have to deal with it. Those who aren't bad (either relative to you or just terrible) may not even play the way you expect. That's not to say they're playing poorly; they have different tactics at any point in the game.
What you should be learning in pubs and what will serve you throughout your non-competitive HoN is reacting. You need to be able to react quickly and properly in any given situation. When your teammate decides to intiate, even if you don't think it's optimal, you need to immediately assess the situation and decide what you should do. Sometimes that involves cutting your loses by leaving your teammate to die when he initiates poorly in a 1500 MMR pub. Sometimes that involves going in yourself even if you're not in the perfect position. Sometimes you go halfway and return temporarily to stun and get your dumb teammate out.
What's even better than reacting after the fact is to preemptively prepare for situations. You should be watching what your teammates are doing and thinking about what they might do. "If my teammate decides to initiate right now, am I in a good position?" or "If I initiate now, is my teammate close enough to use his skills?" Port keying into four guys and getting them all in your tempest ult may be a terrible play if your team isn't close enough to do anything.
The nature of pubs is that you will always have randoms on your team. You will not know how those randoms play. You need to be flexible with your play and not some rigid noob who thinks he knows best.
This is a great way to pick up some of the shittiest habits in HoN or DotA. Play how you're suppose to play, screw the pubs, and understand why you adapt and how you would have played that differently if they weren't terribads. The latter is more important than trying to react to dumb shit, why? Because it puts you in terrible situations that you had 0 business being in.
Understanding the best thing to do in a situation is completely different from what you should do in a pub. You should be playing to win with what you have not whining "oh if only my teammates were better and did this and this -- I wouldn't have died." Blaming your team is how you fail to improve and that's exactly what 90% of HoN players do.
So by adapting to the shittiest players of a game is the way to improve? Really?
Yes because it's a skill you need even in competitive games. You're constantly adapting to choices your teammates make. That's how teamfights work. The majority of this is non-verbal and depends on you watching your teammates as well as your enemies.
You're implying that you'll pick up bad habits from being flexible in your gameplay and yet you also argue that you can also attribute mistakes objectively. I don't see how those can coexist. I think that saying that you can still attribute the bad position/whatever to your teammates while reacting to it in order to improve the outcome of that game. If you get bad habits from that, I don't see how you're also attributing mistakes objectively.
On April 27 2011 08:37 Judicator wrote: Once you figure out who is who, then you can formulate your own plans for your hero and what you need to do to minimize the stupidity on your team and maximize your effectiveness.
After disagreeing with me you state my exact point. I think we're having a communication problem here somewhere. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make: you need to change your play based on your team and not on some theoretical optimal play. You will win more games this way and you will also improve because you'll gain map awareness and stop mis-attributing blame.
Edit: Fixed one sentence
Except you aren't playing with good people. No you aren't being flexible, you're doing shit that you are getting away with because the skill level of your opponents are low, those are the bad habits I am referring to. I'll use an example, how you play the lane against someone competent is vastly different than how you would play against some dumbfuck. Basically, playing down to pubs level when you aren't high level in the first place is asking for playing like shit, especially if you mass game to improve.
If you can't attribute mistakes objectively, then you have no business trying to improve. Players have tendencies, good or bad.
I am not entirely disagreeing with you, but there are giant pitfalls that would make a beginning player play like ass, it's just a question of at skill level. If you are adapting the game because the other team is executing well, that's fine, but when you have to change because the dumbfucks on your team aren't listening or competent, then no, you don't adapt. You aren't being clever, you are just being brought down to their level.
EPT
