Leaving it up to judi to tell you how bad he was and how bad the people he played with was etc.
[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 1190
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Leaving it up to judi to tell you how bad he was and how bad the people he played with was etc. | ||
Judicator
United States7270 Posts
His last notable games in DotA was in ESWC where he was really lost despite playing one of his best heroes of TA. Compared to Loda's TA or Misery's Morph, he wasn't really all that superb, aka none of that oh-shit-this-is-Light-on-BM aura. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
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GazeRocker
Canada60 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:46 JeeJee wrote: stop feeding the troll why are you even debating the validity of an argument based on stupid assumptions? i assume the faster you click the worse you are hence, high apm = bad wanna argue this? come at me bro i forget which one's the bastard sword? if its the broadsword, they're noob if it's the claymore, it's a shinbi-approved decision, with piles of empirical data and sound arguments from famous DotA characters like elemenope + Show Spoiler + Testie only advocates going lifetube first because he's a passive faggot with his item builds and doesn't want to expand and try something "different." Let's just look at the numbers: Lifetube/RoH - 5 hp/sec regen. Let's compare to the other items however: Salve - 400 hp/10 secs= 40 hp/sec regen. Tango - 115 hp/16 secs= 7.1875 hp/sec regen. Bottle - 135 hp/3 secs= 45 hp/sec regen. We can clearly see that going Lifetube first not only doesn't increase our damage at all, but it also gives us very pitiful regen over time. The healing salve gives 8 times the regen of a lifetube for about 1/9th the price. A single tango has almost equivalent regen of the lifetube, yet it is still higher. The bottle is the king of the hp regen as it gives a really great burst amount and also gives us mana regen as well, which is something the other 3 items do not do. On top of this, we can store runes such as Regen which also helps the regen obviously, but also illusion runes and dd runes for last hitting/harassing the opponent as well as haste and invisibility to gank/harass the enemy. Compare by cost: Lifetube: 875/5=175 gold/hp Salve: 100/40=2.5 g/hp Tango: 30/7.1875=4.1739 g/hp Bottle: 200/45=4.4444 g/hp Tango is 30 as we are using one instance; same deal with the bottle. As we can see, the lifetube is overall the most inefficient usage of gold per single point of hp regen as well. All the others are in the single digits, yet the Lifetube is at 175 gold per point of hp regen on the basis that it is a "permanent item". But nobody buys a lifetube simply for the hp regen, they buy it as components for their perseverance [which goes into refresher/linken's/battlefury] or vanguard. In terms of just strict regen, the lifetube loses out horribly. In fact, we could buy just about 9 healing salves and it would take 12 minutes for the lifetube to catch up to that which is about the time that people can farm a battlefury itself anyway. On top of that, since the bottle has "infinite" charges on it, the g/hp value of it drops significantly to almost near 0. With a 600 gold investment, we get all the hp *and* mana regen that we need from the simple bottle and rune whoring or bottle ferrying which takes the most little of micro. Now, we realize that the cost of a battlefury is not going to change regardless of the amount of gold we have or decide to put in: it's always going to be 4350 [1400+1200+875+875]. But the main difference is what order we buy the items. If you go lifetube first: then you won't be getting your next source of +damage for last hitting until at least another 875 gold which means that the 875 gold is merely just for this so called "lane survivability". But as we analyzed earlier, if you need enough hp regen in order to stay in the lane, then it can be easily covered by other items that provide more hp regen. Now you may say that "well, I'm spending more gold on this so that means I'm losing out on getting my bf earlier", realize that you also have to stay a bit back more because you can't come up to last hit because you don't have enough hp which is the reason why we're talking about this. But if you spend 100 gold on a hp pot, then you can get a quick 400 burst hp which is assuredly enough, which allows you to go back, last hit 2-3 creeps to make up the cost right away, and then last hit some more creeps while they whittle down that 400 hp barrier. Now instead of having a first lifetube, you can have a claymore with +21 damage. So you're going to be hitting well over 100 on heroes and creeps. Now, keep in mind that earlier and midgame, players don't have a whole lot of hp; so the sudden increase in damage isn't something that they'll come to expect as +21 damage that earlier on really hurts them a lot, especially if they come to harass you, draw creep aggro, and then you blink/invis/time leap into them for the damage from the skills+auto attacks+creep damage. You can really take down them fast. And if you decide to chase, you can also have a hp pot in your inventory to pop if you get low. Then, you can go the broadsword for +18 damage, so really early on, you'll have +39 damage+whatever stat items you have. This is huge. You have more damage than most other heroes will have even if they go phase boots which puts you at a tremendous advantage in terms of creeping and harassing as not only do you have skills that close the distance gap, but you have a generally faster attack point, higher base damage, and a bit more hp generally than most of the ranged heroes. This translates into an easier time in fights due to your increase in damage, easier time on creeping especially if you have a hatchet [at this point, the other heroes may as well forget about csing unless they nuke a creep], and you don't have to rely on slow-paced regen from your Lifetube. Afterwards, you can go lifetube only because there's really no other choice, unless you're spamming spells like a madman and absolutely need your manatube. Either way: If we analyze this - going the normal route, we farm up 875 gold,buy a lifetube. Have to wait til at least 875 more before our damage source comes in [but sometimes, we don't even use the mana and would rather buy the claymore for the higher damage, which means waiting 1400 instead of 875 more]. So for 875-1400 gold, we have no damage increase at all to help with last hitting or harassment. Meanwhile, if we had just waited 525 gold and bought the Claymore first, we have +21 damage for the next 1200 gold which then turns into +39 for the next 875 gold. So overall, we see that the second option of going Claymore first translates into more damage/time spent overall since regen is negligible coming from such a small source and the fact that with the higher damage+base damage, we can push enemy heroes outside of the lane along with our support. Boot + Ring of Health/Life Tube > Claymore G_G | ||
don_kyuhote
3006 Posts
On March 08 2011 09:54 Souma wrote: Korok had one of the best pubstomp Tinys I have ever seen though. I'll give him that. I used to watch Korok's Crew play on streams about a year ago in SECS. They seemed to be one of the best teams competing in SECS back then, but most teams that were playing in SECS weren't very good anyway so... I wonder what happened to SECS now. Is it still going on? I heard Mark Drav quit Dota or something. | ||
BlueRoyaL
United States2493 Posts
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On March 08 2011 11:23 don_kyuhote wrote: I used to watch Korok's Crew play on streams about a year ago in SECS. They seemed to be one of the best teams competing in SECS back then, but most teams that were playing in SECS weren't very good anyway so... I wonder what happened to SECS now. Is it still going on? I heard Mark Drav quit Dota or something. nadota has a .com you know | ||
Gummy
United States2180 Posts
Anyway.... here's the prick's model. If you assume a present value/discount factor model, with a discount per second of d (0< d < 1 where we get d utility the next second for 1 unit of healing this second) we get for our regen: - lifetube <= 5/(1-d) (a good enough approximation since a game is essentially "infinite" in terms of seconds. To see this, assuming a laning phase that lasts 10 minutes after the purchase of the lifetube and a discount factor of .995, the marginal benefit at the end of those 10 minutes is only 5% of what it was at the beginning, and almost negligible.) - potion <= 40 + 40(d + 40d^2 .... 40d^9 = 40(1-d^10)/(1-d) (it's actually better modeled by a continuous integral, but this is a good first-order bounding approximation) - rune <= 7.1875(1-d^16)/(1-d) (again just a good approximation) - bottle <= 45(1-d^3)/(1-d) These numbers represent the "discounted healing" rate. If we factor in the cost, we get a "discounted healing rate per gold spent" or DHRPGS given by: - lifetube = 5/((1-d)*875) - potion <= 40 + 40(d + 40d^2 .... 40d^9 = 40(1-d^10)/(100(1-d)) - rune <= 7.1875(1-d^16)/(90(1-d)) - bottle <= 45(1-d^3)/(600(1-d)) (this estimation is poor because in fact, I have no way of factoring in the rechargeability of bottles without introducing another variable, but for any d <<1 it's good enough for our discussion, since the time it takes to recharge the bottle generally far exceeds the amount of time over which the bottle is actually giving regeneration) For an intuitive meaning of d, consider it as "how badly you need the healing" where d = 0 means "extremely desperately" and d=1 means "yeah don't really give a fuck whether it's now or later." If we plot these quantities with respect to d(I just plotted these functions in excel) you get the following plots. For standard laning (non-desperate situations). ![]() In this case, we see that under conditions of standard harrassment, d ~ .995, lifetubes are dominant in terms of cost-effectiveness. For extremely desperate situations where the individual second counts (d <.1) potions/salves are the way to go in terms of cost-effectiveness. (Think of being chased down by an otherwise fatal soul-reaper heal wave.) ![]() I hope you guys find these plots helpful. As in my previous posts, I'm making certain assumptions: 1.) Non-satiation. In fact, you can't stack regen from bottle spamming or red potion spamming. In general this helps the lifetube's relative cost effectiveness. 2.) Ignoring particular effects like the bottle's rechargability and the potion's cancel on damage. Clearly, runes of the blight and lifetube are more effective than potion or bottle against DoT, and my model fails to take that into account. Also, if you're looking at a situation where you're running in the river at 7:54, bottles are suddenly a lot more cost-effective than this model will give them credit for. Also, the non-technical assumption that the cost-effectiveness matters was made because otherwise we have a trivial decision: Use bottle against non-(continuous DOT). Use rune otherwise. | ||
alia
United States294 Posts
On March 08 2011 11:23 don_kyuhote wrote: I used to watch Korok's Crew play on streams about a year ago in SECS. They seemed to be one of the best teams competing in SECS back then, but most teams that were playing in SECS weren't very good anyway so... I wonder what happened to SECS now. Is it still going on? I heard Mark Drav quit Dota or something. SECS is still weekly. I casted a couple of games a few weeks ago. | ||
GazeRocker
Canada60 Posts
On March 08 2011 12:50 Gummy wrote: Thanks Paper for understanding what I was arguing. Most of you peoples are trolls who are attacking the straw man. OT: I think the proposed lifetube vs. rune vs. pot vs. bottle discussion is flawed because it only considers spike regen. Anyway.... here's the prick's model. If you assume a present value/discount factor model, with a discount per second of d (0< d < 1 where we get d utility the next second for 1 unit of healing this second) we get for our regen: - lifetube <= 5/(1-d) (a good enough approximation since a game is essentially "infinite" in terms of seconds. To see this, assuming a laning phase that lasts 10 minutes after the purchase of the lifetube and a discount factor of .995, the marginal benefit at the end of those 10 minutes is only 5% of what it was at the beginning, and almost negligible.) - potion <= 40 + 40(d + 40d^2 .... 40d^9 = 40(1-d^10)/(1-d) (it's actually better modeled by a continuous integral, but this is a good first-order bounding approximation) - rune <= 7.1875(1-d^16)/(1-d) (again just a good approximation) - bottle <= 45(1-d^3)/(1-d) These numbers represent the "discounted healing" rate. If we factor in the cost, we get a "discounted healing rate per gold spent" or DHRPGS given by: - lifetube = 5/((1-d)*875) - potion <= 40 + 40(d + 40d^2 .... 40d^9 = 40(1-d^10)/(100(1-d)) - rune <= 7.1875(1-d^16)/(90(1-d)) - bottle <= 45(1-d^3)/(600(1-d)) (this estimation is poor because in fact, I have no way of factoring in the rechargeability of bottles without introducing another variable, but for any d <<1 it's good enough for our discussion, since the time it takes to recharge the bottle generally far exceeds the amount of time over which the bottle is actually giving regeneration) For an intuitive meaning of d, consider it as "how badly you need the healing" where d = 0 means "extremely desperately" and d=1 means "yeah don't really give a fuck whether it's now or later." If we plot these quantities with respect to d(I just plotted these functions in excel) you get the following plots. For standard laning (non-desperate situations). ![]() In this case, we see that under conditions of standard harrassment, d ~ .995, lifetubes are dominant in terms of cost-effectiveness. For extremely desperate situations where the individual second counts (d <.1) potions/salves are the way to go in terms of cost-effectiveness. (Think of being chased down by an otherwise fatal soul-reaper heal wave.) ![]() I hope you guys find these plots helpful. As in my previous posts, I'm making certain assumptions: 1.) Non-satiation. In fact, you can't stack regen from bottle spamming or red potion spamming. In general this helps the lifetube's relative cost effectiveness. 2.) Ignoring particular effects like the bottle's rechargability and the potion's cancel on damage. Clearly, runes of the blight and lifetube are more effective than potion or bottle against DoT, and my model fails to take that into account. Also, if you're looking at a situation where you're running in the river at 7:54, bottles are suddenly a lot more cost-effective than this model will give them credit for. Also, the non-technical assumption that the cost-effectiveness matters was made because otherwise we have a trivial decision: Use bottle against non-(continuous DOT). Use rune otherwise. You sir, are intense!!! Maybe you should be our statistical analyst for any calculation based problem in playing DotA/HoN!!! I have never gotten so good at HoN/DotA probably because I never calculated all these stuff when playing T_T, I think I need to calculate more to become better at this game so that I can become 100% Testie | ||
StallingHard
144 Posts
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Gummy
United States2180 Posts
On March 08 2011 14:40 StallingHard wrote: Gummy none of us were trolling. Saying that is childish and the equivalent of putting binders on and going nananana. I do agree with your analysis of lifetube though I'm sure some of you are, in fact, trolls :p Not for disagreeing with me though! + Show Spoiler + ![]() NANANANANANAA | ||
GazeRocker
Canada60 Posts
1) The community is much better as I found in Solo Matchmatching games (They do not rage/troll) 2) The average waiting for queuing takes about 30 sec 3) It actually has some skills involve in how you play different heroes 4) Skills tree + Runes affect the overall gameplay (But I can only see that in competitive play) 5) It is pretty fun :O 6) I am having fun raping them like np Anyone wanna teamup or smth lol? | ||
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On March 08 2011 12:11 BlueRoyaL wrote: Does anyone know how to be able to read/write korean on HoN? i see some of my ffriends typing it but it appears to me as blocks. They told me it's some file I have to find but i have no idea where.. -___- Nope, neither does japanese, but bleh On March 08 2011 19:33 GazeRocker wrote: So after trying out LoL for like 9 games I found that it is actually not that bad lol... 1) The community is much better as I found in Solo Matchmatching games (They do not rage/troll) 2) The average waiting for queuing takes about 30 sec 3) It actually has some skills involve in how you play different heroes 4) Skills tree + Runes affect the overall gameplay (But I can only see that in competitive play) 5) It is pretty fun :O 6) I am having fun raping them like np Anyone wanna teamup or smth lol? there's forums for LoL in this board you know.... like DEDICATED LoL board... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=51 better to ask about making groups there.... | ||
rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On March 08 2011 20:22 zhurai wrote: Nope, neither does japanese, but bleh there's forums for LoL in this board you know.... like DEDICATED LoL board... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=51 better to ask about making groups there.... tl hon/dota is a community in itself... theres nothing wrong with asking it here since he's probably looking for people from here | ||
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On March 08 2011 20:30 rabidch wrote: tl hon/dota is a community in itself... theres nothing wrong with asking it here since he's probably looking for people from here uh fine, then "Here's a link to the LoL forums on this 'board, just in case you didn't know" that better? o.O | ||
Shinbi
338 Posts
On March 08 2011 19:33 GazeRocker wrote: So after trying out LoL for like 9 games I found that it is actually not that bad lol... 1) The community is much better as I found in Solo Matchmatching games (They do not rage/troll) 2) The average waiting for queuing takes about 30 sec 3) It actually has some skills involve in how you play different heroes 4) Skills tree + Runes affect the overall gameplay (But I can only see that in competitive play) 5) It is pretty fun :O 6) I am having fun raping them like np Anyone wanna teamup or smth lol? Tried getting people to play it - they based their impressions on lowbie level 1 games, hence stopped playing it. I think the only one I played with that stuck with it was wala. Jacob also plays, but not sure if he still plays as I haven't logged on in awhile. | ||
TheMusiC
United States1054 Posts
On March 08 2011 19:33 GazeRocker wrote: So after trying out LoL for like 9 games I found that it is actually not that bad lol... 1) The community is much better as I found in Solo Matchmatching games (They do not rage/troll) 2) The average waiting for queuing takes about 30 sec 3) It actually has some skills involve in how you play different heroes 4) Skills tree + Runes affect the overall gameplay (But I can only see that in competitive play) 5) It is pretty fun :O 6) I am having fun raping them like np Anyone wanna teamup or smth lol? lol i play, what's ur id riki | ||
DevAzTaYtA
Oman2005 Posts
On March 08 2011 19:33 GazeRocker wrote: So after trying out LoL for like 9 games I found that it is actually not that bad lol... 1) The community is much better as I found in Solo Matchmatching games (They do not rage/troll) 2) The average waiting for queuing takes about 30 sec 3) It actually has some skills involve in how you play different heroes 4) Skills tree + Runes affect the overall gameplay (But I can only see that in competitive play) 5) It is pretty fun :O 6) I am having fun raping them like np Anyone wanna teamup or smth lol? i'll play... installing now. gonna try to get gucci/bhp to join too. although we've been playing this: http://www.bloodlinechampions.com pretty fun and action-packed arena game, but doesn't seem like it's very popular for some reason. | ||
Durak
Canada3684 Posts
On March 08 2011 19:33 GazeRocker wrote: So after trying out LoL for like 9 games I found that it is actually not that bad lol... 1) The community is much better as I found in Solo Matchmatching games (They do not rage/troll) 2) The average waiting for queuing takes about 30 sec 3) It actually has some skills involve in how you play different heroes 4) Skills tree + Runes affect the overall gameplay (But I can only see that in competitive play) 5) It is pretty fun :O 6) I am having fun raping them like np Anyone wanna teamup or smth lol? I played LoL for 6 months solid and now I play off and on with friends who are hardcore. 1) The community doesn't really seem better. It doesn't have built in voice communication so you don't have people yelling at you but people still do rage. In addition, at high resolutions, the chat box is inconspicuous. 2) Queue time is slightly lower. Probably because it's a free game and there are more players. However, that's because our perspectives are from low-medium rated games. In HoN, the wait time is similar for that level of game and it only increases significantly if you try to solo queue at 1800+ MMR. Obviously it also depends on what you vote down and LoL is all pick. 3) Yeah but it wouldn't be a very deep game if it didn't. ![]() 4) Yeah, runes+skills can have an impact. I remember raping with Lzgamer when Shaco came out and he made an all-crit runebook. 5) I find it boring now ![]() 6) All games are fun when you can mess around and still stomp everyone :D | ||
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