[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 1189
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DarkOptik
452 Posts
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Ethenielle
Norway1006 Posts
Maybe we'll get our very own relativity theory. No but seriously can we please just use common sense? | ||
DarkOptik
452 Posts
1.) I assume the measure of apm implies that there is some intake and processing of information between subsequent clicks. **1a.) I assume that the choice not to click might be included in the apm (even though it is not.) This inaccuracy, I hope, is empirically not particularly large since there is SOME non-deleterious action that can be taken in almost all cases. Even the crucial timing involved in orb-walking can be interspersed with select actions to check opponent's items. 2.) I assume "all other things being equal" to include misclick rate, which is also a very unrealistic assumption. Generally misclick rate grows proportionally to APM, but this trend is a bit harder to model mathematically without some empirical data. Your second assumption is incredibly bad I can't believe you're making it. Are you serious? If your average misclick rate is going to be once every five clicks, then if you click twenty times rather than 10, you're going to have an average of 4 misclicks rather than 2 misclicks. Even if you correct them faster, you're still having twice as many misclicks. Would you rather have 4 errors or 2 errors? It's a completely absurd assumption to make that somehow correcting 2 errors faster is better than not having them in the first place. And that's assuming you make misclicks at the same rate when you're at higher APM, which is totally a bullshit assumption to make. The faster you click the less accurate you're going to be just due to the fact that there's less time lapse between each click and therefore less precision and thought going into each one. The reason your mathematical model seems to work is because you think that clicking more DOESN'T mean that your misclick amount increases. i.e. you're saying that if for every ten clicks you're going to misclick twice, for every twenty clicks, you're STILL only going to misclick twice. That's basically the premise of your whole argument, and it's no wonder people are calling you out on it. Cause it defies all logic. | ||
Alur
Denmark3900 Posts
On March 07 2011 13:22 DevAzTaYtA wrote: nope, just makes you more likely to misclick. anyone know if bloodlines champions is worth playing? Regarding BLC: It's free (In the free version you can play 4 of the 20 heroes, this rotates every week. In addition you will be able to buy heroes "permanently" for ingame currency, similar to the shop system in hon) and lot's of fun, you should definately check it out. But since every ability is a skillshot, you'll be dodging projectiles all the time, so I wouldn't recommend playing the game unless you have atleast 400apm. | ||
rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On March 07 2011 18:06 Alur wrote: Regarding BLC: It's free (In the free version you can play 4 of the 20 heroes, this rotates every week. In addition you will be able to buy heroes "permanently" for ingame currency, similar to the shop system in hon) and lot's of fun, you should definately check it out. But since every ability is a skillshot, you'll be dodging projectiles all the time, so I wouldn't recommend playing the game unless you have atleast 400apm. i think we've established that higher apm does not make you better at dodging projectiles | ||
Alur
Denmark3900 Posts
On March 07 2011 18:08 rabidch wrote: i think we've established that higher apm does not make you better at dodging projectiles Your understanding of the projectile metagame is clearly flawed. | ||
Gummy
United States2180 Posts
On March 07 2011 18:08 rabidch wrote: i think we've established that higher apm does not make you better at dodging projectiles I think at the very minimum we can agree that, in fact, that apm increases your ability to dodge projectiles. | ||
rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On March 07 2011 18:20 Alur wrote: Your understanding of the projectile metagame is clearly flawed. Obviously, you do not understand the metagame. I don't think anybody actually understands the metagame despite years of rigorous attempts to study and prove it. In fact, I don't think anybody has established the validity of existence of the metagame. Perhaps you should take a moment to think about it. | ||
[TYG]Transcend
679 Posts
On March 07 2011 15:20 JeeJee wrote: LOL "i make some unrealistic assumptions but consider your point refuted" pls go You promised me that we'll tear up the DotA2 scene. YOU NEED TO PRACTICE. | ||
StallingHard
144 Posts
On March 07 2011 17:35 Gummy wrote: You have points, but you clearly didn't read my post. The first is taken into account by my model, and the second is directly addressed in my assumptions. What the fuck? I just countered the exact points you made in your post by explaining why they were unrealistic. I said: Not true, the misclick comes faster due to your increased number of clicks over a set amount of time, and subsequent misclicks come faster. Some misclicks can be avoided, but some misclicks trigger a near instant cast animation, or turn, etc that will cause consequences. You had said: But assuming you have the same rate of misclicking, the relative bad effect of the misclick will be less if you have a higher apm. MATH. So given my "all other things being equal assumption" and my interpretation of equality, I've just proven that having a higher apm is more beneficial on average. That's the problem. You can't be given all other things equal assumption because it is WRONG. Also, in your assumptions 1 and 1a you did NOT account for the fact that some misclicks are unrecoverable losses, which will occur at a higher rate due to them coming up quicker. I also said: You also make the baseless assumption that misclicks translate at a linear rate, I would argue that the faster you click the higher likelihood there is for a misclick. You had said: I assume "all other things being equal" to include misclick rate, which is also a very unrealistic assumption. Generally misclick rate grows proportionally to APM, but this trend is a bit harder to model mathematically without some empirical data. Which is an admission that your mathematical model was flawed from the get-go. You then have the nerve to say, "So yeah. Consider your point refuted." It makes you come across as a complete prick (not saying you are, but you SOUND like one) | ||
Glull
Germany404 Posts
please stop or find some evidence (which as many have found out before you doesnt appear to exist), because otherwise this is just not worth anyones time. now, can someone explain to me why i see people get bastard swords first when farming for a runed axe? | ||
StallingHard
144 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:52 Glull wrote: apm debates in starcraft usually managed to make me laugh due to their irrelevance and the lack of insight of most people participating, but this is just embarassing. please stop or find some evidence (which as many have found out before you doesnt appear to exist), because otherwise this is just not worth anyones time. now, can someone explain to me why i see people get bastard swords first when farming for a runed axe? There are a few horrible reasons I can think of. 1. Most expensive component and you want to be "death-proof" 2. Better last hitting provided compared to the other items 3. Might want to throw and go assassin's shroud I'm assuming you mean bsword before life/manatube | ||
paper
13196 Posts
-- I don't even know why the problem of mis-clicking is coming up. APM should be a measure of useful actions, NOT a measure of how much you fail at basic mechanics. If you played SC1 and used BWChart, there was a category that removed spam actions from your APM. (Including spam APM is like wearing high heels and then putting that total height on your driver's license.) In any case, extremely fast APM would correct mistakes so fast that movement would appear seamless (especially considering that most mistakes involve the mouse and not the keyboard). | ||
JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
why are you even debating the validity of an argument based on stupid assumptions? i assume the faster you click the worse you are hence, high apm = bad wanna argue this? come at me bro On March 07 2011 20:52 Glull wrote:now, can someone explain to me why i see people get bastard swords first when farming for a runed axe? i forget which one's the bastard sword? if its the broadsword, they're noob if it's the claymore, it's a shinbi-approved decision, with piles of empirical data and sound arguments from famous DotA characters like elemenope + Show Spoiler + Testie only advocates going lifetube first because he's a passive faggot with his item builds and doesn't want to expand and try something "different." Let's just look at the numbers: Lifetube/RoH - 5 hp/sec regen. Let's compare to the other items however: Salve - 400 hp/10 secs= 40 hp/sec regen. Tango - 115 hp/16 secs= 7.1875 hp/sec regen. Bottle - 135 hp/3 secs= 45 hp/sec regen. We can clearly see that going Lifetube first not only doesn't increase our damage at all, but it also gives us very pitiful regen over time. The healing salve gives 8 times the regen of a lifetube for about 1/9th the price. A single tango has almost equivalent regen of the lifetube, yet it is still higher. The bottle is the king of the hp regen as it gives a really great burst amount and also gives us mana regen as well, which is something the other 3 items do not do. On top of this, we can store runes such as Regen which also helps the regen obviously, but also illusion runes and dd runes for last hitting/harassing the opponent as well as haste and invisibility to gank/harass the enemy. Compare by cost: Lifetube: 875/5=175 gold/hp Salve: 100/40=2.5 g/hp Tango: 30/7.1875=4.1739 g/hp Bottle: 200/45=4.4444 g/hp Tango is 30 as we are using one instance; same deal with the bottle. As we can see, the lifetube is overall the most inefficient usage of gold per single point of hp regen as well. All the others are in the single digits, yet the Lifetube is at 175 gold per point of hp regen on the basis that it is a "permanent item". But nobody buys a lifetube simply for the hp regen, they buy it as components for their perseverance [which goes into refresher/linken's/battlefury] or vanguard. In terms of just strict regen, the lifetube loses out horribly. In fact, we could buy just about 9 healing salves and it would take 12 minutes for the lifetube to catch up to that which is about the time that people can farm a battlefury itself anyway. On top of that, since the bottle has "infinite" charges on it, the g/hp value of it drops significantly to almost near 0. With a 600 gold investment, we get all the hp *and* mana regen that we need from the simple bottle and rune whoring or bottle ferrying which takes the most little of micro. Now, we realize that the cost of a battlefury is not going to change regardless of the amount of gold we have or decide to put in: it's always going to be 4350 [1400+1200+875+875]. But the main difference is what order we buy the items. If you go lifetube first: then you won't be getting your next source of +damage for last hitting until at least another 875 gold which means that the 875 gold is merely just for this so called "lane survivability". But as we analyzed earlier, if you need enough hp regen in order to stay in the lane, then it can be easily covered by other items that provide more hp regen. Now you may say that "well, I'm spending more gold on this so that means I'm losing out on getting my bf earlier", realize that you also have to stay a bit back more because you can't come up to last hit because you don't have enough hp which is the reason why we're talking about this. But if you spend 100 gold on a hp pot, then you can get a quick 400 burst hp which is assuredly enough, which allows you to go back, last hit 2-3 creeps to make up the cost right away, and then last hit some more creeps while they whittle down that 400 hp barrier. Now instead of having a first lifetube, you can have a claymore with +21 damage. So you're going to be hitting well over 100 on heroes and creeps. Now, keep in mind that earlier and midgame, players don't have a whole lot of hp; so the sudden increase in damage isn't something that they'll come to expect as +21 damage that earlier on really hurts them a lot, especially if they come to harass you, draw creep aggro, and then you blink/invis/time leap into them for the damage from the skills+auto attacks+creep damage. You can really take down them fast. And if you decide to chase, you can also have a hp pot in your inventory to pop if you get low. Then, you can go the broadsword for +18 damage, so really early on, you'll have +39 damage+whatever stat items you have. This is huge. You have more damage than most other heroes will have even if they go phase boots which puts you at a tremendous advantage in terms of creeping and harassing as not only do you have skills that close the distance gap, but you have a generally faster attack point, higher base damage, and a bit more hp generally than most of the ranged heroes. This translates into an easier time in fights due to your increase in damage, easier time on creeping especially if you have a hatchet [at this point, the other heroes may as well forget about csing unless they nuke a creep], and you don't have to rely on slow-paced regen from your Lifetube. Afterwards, you can go lifetube only because there's really no other choice, unless you're spamming spells like a madman and absolutely need your manatube. Either way: If we analyze this - going the normal route, we farm up 875 gold,buy a lifetube. Have to wait til at least 875 more before our damage source comes in [but sometimes, we don't even use the mana and would rather buy the claymore for the higher damage, which means waiting 1400 instead of 875 more]. So for 875-1400 gold, we have no damage increase at all to help with last hitting or harassment. Meanwhile, if we had just waited 525 gold and bought the Claymore first, we have +21 damage for the next 1200 gold which then turns into +39 for the next 875 gold. So overall, we see that the second option of going Claymore first translates into more damage/time spent overall since regen is negligible coming from such a small source and the fact that with the higher damage+base damage, we can push enemy heroes outside of the lane along with our support. | ||
alia
United States294 Posts
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Crimson
United States311 Posts
On March 08 2011 01:16 alia wrote: Investing 1400 into 21 damage that early in the game is not a good idea and by the time you are likely to get a Claymore it makes no difference in lane. aaaaaannnndddd.... another one bites the dust | ||
Judicator
United States7270 Posts
rabidch, whats hot in the dota metagame, i haven't been following. | ||
DarkOptik
452 Posts
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On March 08 2011 02:06 Judicator wrote: People who focus on APM are scrubs, people who try to draw conclusions from APM are even bigger scrubs, and lastly that model (or any other models) means shit the minute you decide (<= emphasis) to do the dumbest shit at the given game state. rabidch, whats hot in the dota metagame, i haven't been following. weaver, aa imba as expected, invoker is a pain in the ass, all the new items are good and change up the game a bit fucking bugs and that fucking freezing ult + Show Spoiler [TL HoN/DotA Thread] + ![]() | ||
Shinbi
338 Posts
On March 08 2011 00:46 JeeJee wrote: i forget which one's the bastard sword? if its the broadsword, they're noob if it's the claymore, it's a shinbi-approved decision, with piles of empirical data and sound arguments from famous DotA characters like elemenope + Show Spoiler + Testie only advocates going lifetube first because he's a passive faggot with his item builds and doesn't want to expand and try something "different." Let's just look at the numbers: Lifetube/RoH - 5 hp/sec regen. Let's compare to the other items however: Salve - 400 hp/10 secs= 40 hp/sec regen. Tango - 115 hp/16 secs= 7.1875 hp/sec regen. Bottle - 135 hp/3 secs= 45 hp/sec regen. We can clearly see that going Lifetube first not only doesn't increase our damage at all, but it also gives us very pitiful regen over time. The healing salve gives 8 times the regen of a lifetube for about 1/9th the price. A single tango has almost equivalent regen of the lifetube, yet it is still higher. The bottle is the king of the hp regen as it gives a really great burst amount and also gives us mana regen as well, which is something the other 3 items do not do. On top of this, we can store runes such as Regen which also helps the regen obviously, but also illusion runes and dd runes for last hitting/harassing the opponent as well as haste and invisibility to gank/harass the enemy. Compare by cost: Lifetube: 875/5=175 gold/hp Salve: 100/40=2.5 g/hp Tango: 30/7.1875=4.1739 g/hp Bottle: 200/45=4.4444 g/hp Tango is 30 as we are using one instance; same deal with the bottle. As we can see, the lifetube is overall the most inefficient usage of gold per single point of hp regen as well. All the others are in the single digits, yet the Lifetube is at 175 gold per point of hp regen on the basis that it is a "permanent item". But nobody buys a lifetube simply for the hp regen, they buy it as components for their perseverance [which goes into refresher/linken's/battlefury] or vanguard. In terms of just strict regen, the lifetube loses out horribly. In fact, we could buy just about 9 healing salves and it would take 12 minutes for the lifetube to catch up to that which is about the time that people can farm a battlefury itself anyway. On top of that, since the bottle has "infinite" charges on it, the g/hp value of it drops significantly to almost near 0. With a 600 gold investment, we get all the hp *and* mana regen that we need from the simple bottle and rune whoring or bottle ferrying which takes the most little of micro. Now, we realize that the cost of a battlefury is not going to change regardless of the amount of gold we have or decide to put in: it's always going to be 4350 [1400+1200+875+875]. But the main difference is what order we buy the items. If you go lifetube first: then you won't be getting your next source of +damage for last hitting until at least another 875 gold which means that the 875 gold is merely just for this so called "lane survivability". But as we analyzed earlier, if you need enough hp regen in order to stay in the lane, then it can be easily covered by other items that provide more hp regen. Now you may say that "well, I'm spending more gold on this so that means I'm losing out on getting my bf earlier", realize that you also have to stay a bit back more because you can't come up to last hit because you don't have enough hp which is the reason why we're talking about this. But if you spend 100 gold on a hp pot, then you can get a quick 400 burst hp which is assuredly enough, which allows you to go back, last hit 2-3 creeps to make up the cost right away, and then last hit some more creeps while they whittle down that 400 hp barrier. Now instead of having a first lifetube, you can have a claymore with +21 damage. So you're going to be hitting well over 100 on heroes and creeps. Now, keep in mind that earlier and midgame, players don't have a whole lot of hp; so the sudden increase in damage isn't something that they'll come to expect as +21 damage that earlier on really hurts them a lot, especially if they come to harass you, draw creep aggro, and then you blink/invis/time leap into them for the damage from the skills+auto attacks+creep damage. You can really take down them fast. And if you decide to chase, you can also have a hp pot in your inventory to pop if you get low. Then, you can go the broadsword for +18 damage, so really early on, you'll have +39 damage+whatever stat items you have. This is huge. You have more damage than most other heroes will have even if they go phase boots which puts you at a tremendous advantage in terms of creeping and harassing as not only do you have skills that close the distance gap, but you have a generally faster attack point, higher base damage, and a bit more hp generally than most of the ranged heroes. This translates into an easier time in fights due to your increase in damage, easier time on creeping especially if you have a hatchet [at this point, the other heroes may as well forget about csing unless they nuke a creep], and you don't have to rely on slow-paced regen from your Lifetube. Afterwards, you can go lifetube only because there's really no other choice, unless you're spamming spells like a madman and absolutely need your manatube. Either way: If we analyze this - going the normal route, we farm up 875 gold,buy a lifetube. Have to wait til at least 875 more before our damage source comes in [but sometimes, we don't even use the mana and would rather buy the claymore for the higher damage, which means waiting 1400 instead of 875 more]. So for 875-1400 gold, we have no damage increase at all to help with last hitting or harassment. Meanwhile, if we had just waited 525 gold and bought the Claymore first, we have +21 damage for the next 1200 gold which then turns into +39 for the next 875 gold. So overall, we see that the second option of going Claymore first translates into more damage/time spent overall since regen is negligible coming from such a small source and the fact that with the higher damage+base damage, we can push enemy heroes outside of the lane along with our support. Anybody who doesn't agree with this doesn't understand the concept behind item buildup and timing - might want to PM rpf about it to get the basics of the metagame. | ||
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