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[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 1188

Forum Index > General Games
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rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
March 06 2011 06:29 GMT
#23741
On March 06 2011 15:13 grave_Lotus wrote:
Looking for a friend in HoN I just want to learn the game without elitist pricks yelling at me..

ingame name is gravelotus

if enough elitist pricks yell at you eventually you will be an elitist prick yelling at somebody

isnt that enough to hope for?
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
r33k
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Italy3402 Posts
March 06 2011 07:38 GMT
#23742
On March 06 2011 15:29 rabidch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2011 15:13 grave_Lotus wrote:
Looking for a friend in HoN I just want to learn the game without elitist pricks yelling at me..

ingame name is gravelotus

if enough elitist pricks yell at you eventually you will be an elitist prick yelling at somebody

isnt that enough to hope for?

Isn't that what all games are about?
Jaug
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden249 Posts
March 06 2011 09:07 GMT
#23743
Whenever a teammate of mine messes up I try to support them. Simply because i'm not a bitching 15-year old.
Arckan
Profile Joined September 2010
243 Posts
March 06 2011 10:28 GMT
#23744
What is TL's opinion of Rampage in HoN? Just a pubstomper?
StallingHard
Profile Joined February 2011
144 Posts
March 06 2011 10:39 GMT
#23745
A bad pubstomper to say the least. There are other heroes that disable better than him, do more dmg than him, etcetc. However, with the buff making him magic immune after x seconds at least he's passable. I'd take a Panda over Rampage any day
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
March 06 2011 23:53 GMT
#23746
On March 06 2011 19:28 Arckan wrote:
What is TL's opinion of Rampage in HoN? Just a pubstomper?


Rampage is a reasonable hero that is rarely played by good players. Most people don't know how to play rampage properly or even how to play against him properly. Rampage is very viable if played correctly but isn't good for competitive play because of the metagame+lineups+etc.

On March 06 2011 19:39 StallingHard wrote:
A bad pubstomper to say the least. There are other heroes that disable better than him, do more dmg than him, etcetc. However, with the buff making him magic immune after x seconds at least he's passable. I'd take a Panda over Rampage any day

Panda and rampage aren't very similar Also, I'm sorry to hear you've never seen rampage played well.
StallingHard
Profile Joined February 2011
144 Posts
March 07 2011 03:01 GMT
#23747
On March 07 2011 08:53 Durak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2011 19:28 Arckan wrote:
What is TL's opinion of Rampage in HoN? Just a pubstomper?


Rampage is a reasonable hero that is rarely played by good players. Most people don't know how to play rampage properly or even how to play against him properly. Rampage is very viable if played correctly but isn't good for competitive play because of the metagame+lineups+etc.

Show nested quote +
On March 06 2011 19:39 StallingHard wrote:
A bad pubstomper to say the least. There are other heroes that disable better than him, do more dmg than him, etcetc. However, with the buff making him magic immune after x seconds at least he's passable. I'd take a Panda over Rampage any day

Panda and rampage aren't very similar Also, I'm sorry to hear you've never seen rampage played well.


I only play in 1700+ matches for the most part b/c of the friends I play with so maybe that's why I don't see him so much. People are more competitive the higher you go and less willing to mess around with subpar heroes.

Panda and rampage serve very similar roles btw. Both are disablers and primarily focus on disarming the enemy carry... don't know what role you think rampage should be... ganker, yes, but I'm talking usefulness later into the game and other heroes gank better than rampage. So maybe you can look at it like this:

Carry disable, Panda: 9 Rampage: 7
Ganker, Panda: 6 Rampage 7, Andromeda/Magmus/Deadwood 9

Rampage does a worse job disabling than panda but better job ganking. However, there are other heroes that gank better than both, while I'm not sure there's a better carry disable than Panda.

Panda excels in his role, while rampage is mediocre in anything he does. So he isn't used all that much, ya dig?
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
March 07 2011 03:09 GMT
#23748
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers. Is Nymphora still considered a good ganker in top tier games, or is her stun too dodgeable for people with 200+ apm?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 03:31:57
March 07 2011 03:21 GMT
#23749
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers. Is Nymphora still considered a good ganker in top tier games, or is her stun too dodgeable for people with 200+ apm?

wat
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers.

double wat
+ Show Spoiler +
actually i dont think magmus is top tier ganker he's just useful for a lot of things

and apm does not translate into higher dodging skill.
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
Etherone
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1898 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 03:39:51
March 07 2011 03:36 GMT
#23750
On March 07 2011 12:21 rabidch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers. Is Nymphora still considered a good ganker in top tier games, or is her stun too dodgeable for people with 200+ apm?

wat
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers.

double wat

and apm does not translate into higher dodging skill.

of course it does. we all know your hero moves faster if you spam right-click.

edit: "actually i dont think magmus is top tier ganker he's just useful for a lot of things"
yea.... he is useful for a lot of gank related things.

rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
March 07 2011 03:47 GMT
#23751
On March 07 2011 12:36 Etherone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 12:21 rabidch wrote:
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers. Is Nymphora still considered a good ganker in top tier games, or is her stun too dodgeable for people with 200+ apm?

wat
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers.

double wat

and apm does not translate into higher dodging skill.

of course it does. we all know your hero moves faster if you spam right-click.

edit: "actually i dont think magmus is top tier ganker he's just useful for a lot of things"
yea.... he is useful for a lot of gank related things.


lack of clicking must be why im so bad and never catch up to heroes im trying to kill i will have to click a lot more in the future
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 03:59:07
March 07 2011 03:48 GMT
#23752
On March 07 2011 12:36 Etherone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 12:21 rabidch wrote:
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers. Is Nymphora still considered a good ganker in top tier games, or is her stun too dodgeable for people with 200+ apm?

wat
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers.

double wat

and apm does not translate into higher dodging skill.

of course it does. we all know your hero moves faster if you spam right-click.

edit: "actually i dont think magmus is top tier ganker he's just useful for a lot of things"
yea.... he is useful for a lot of gank related things.


Well the idea is that given the same decision making and mouse control, the player with the highest apm will have a lower average time between information acquisition and action execution, which is usually the differentiating factor for whether you manage to dodge a non-target spell. So I know this is the HoN/DotA thread and so it's cool to troll, but I would really appreciate a real answer that is not "wat" so as to clear up my obvious lack of understanding about the game. T_T

Edit: I guess to clarify my post, the reason why I thought magmus and andromeda were not especially good gankers, was because I thought they are more valuable in lane and are too easy to keep track of, when missing, to be worth their stuns. Andro has a 1.5 second stun at all levels and her ult is great for chasing down a fleeing victim, but Magmus's level 1 stun has a hopelessly weak range and no follow up dps/slow/disable. I thought magmus's main purpose was to push lanes early game and teamfight mid-late game with his deadly leveled up stun/ult.

Thanks!


On March 07 2011 12:47 rabidch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 12:36 Etherone wrote:
On March 07 2011 12:21 rabidch wrote:
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers. Is Nymphora still considered a good ganker in top tier games, or is her stun too dodgeable for people with 200+ apm?

wat
On March 07 2011 12:09 Gummy wrote:
I was not aware that magmus and andro were such good gankers.

double wat

and apm does not translate into higher dodging skill.

of course it does. we all know your hero moves faster if you spam right-click.

edit: "actually i dont think magmus is top tier ganker he's just useful for a lot of things"
yea.... he is useful for a lot of gank related things.


lack of clicking must be why im so bad and never catch up to heroes im trying to kill i will have to click a lot more in the future


Again, clicking faster doesn't make you run faster, per se, but all other things being equal will make you a better chaser against any hero that does not run in a straight line, by the same logic.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
DevAzTaYtA
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Oman2005 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 04:23:14
March 07 2011 04:22 GMT
#23753

Again, clicking faster doesn't make you run faster, per se, but all other things being equal will make you a better chaser against any hero that does not run in a straight line, by the same logic.


nope, just makes you more likely to misclick.

anyone know if bloodlines champions is worth playing?
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 04:58:58
March 07 2011 04:57 GMT
#23754
On March 07 2011 13:22 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
Show nested quote +

Again, clicking faster doesn't make you run faster, per se, but all other things being equal will make you a better chaser against any hero that does not run in a straight line, by the same logic.


nope, just makes you more likely to misclick.

anyone know if bloodlines champions is worth playing?

That's an interesting point... But assuming you have the same rate of misclicking, the relative bad effect of the misclick will be less if you have a higher apm. Let's say you have a given misclick rate m. If you have an apm a, and an apm b s.t. a>b, then the average number of clicks time following the misclick it takes to execute a correction will be 1/(1-m). The duration between clicks are given by 1/a and 1/b minutes, respectively (or 60/a, 60/b seconds).

Then the average time, in seconds, to correction is the product of these two numbers: 1/(1-m) * (60/a) vs. 1/(1-m)*(60/b)

We see that a > b (b>=0, a <=1) implies that 60/a < 60/b, implies
1/(1-m) * (60/a) < 1/(1-m)*(60/b)

or that higher APM immediately implies lower correction time.

So given my "all other things being equal assumption" and my interpretation of equality, I've just proven that having a higher apm is more beneficial on average.

I accept that there are certain assumptions being made:

1.) I assume the measure of apm implies that there is some intake and processing of information between subsequent clicks.
**1a.) I assume that the choice not to click might be included in the apm (even though it is not.) This inaccuracy, I hope, is empirically not particularly large since there is SOME non-deleterious action that can be taken in almost all cases. Even the crucial timing involved in orb-walking can be interspersed with select actions to check opponent's items.
2.) I assume "all other things being equal" to include misclick rate, which is also a very unrealistic assumption. Generally misclick rate grows proportionally to APM, but this trend is a bit harder to model mathematically without some empirical data.

So yeah. Consider your point refuted.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
DevAzTaYtA
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Oman2005 Posts
March 07 2011 06:09 GMT
#23755
you're also assuming that a misclick can be corrected.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
March 07 2011 06:11 GMT
#23756
On March 07 2011 15:09 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
you're also assuming that a misclick can be corrected.

I'm not actually. If a misclick can't be corrected, then you'd just be in an equally shitty situation if you had fewer clicks and the same rate of error.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
March 07 2011 06:20 GMT
#23757
LOL
"i make some unrealistic assumptions but consider your point refuted"
pls go
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
BlueRoyaL
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
United States2493 Posts
March 07 2011 07:02 GMT
#23758
On March 07 2011 13:57 Gummy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 13:22 DevAzTaYtA wrote:

Again, clicking faster doesn't make you run faster, per se, but all other things being equal will make you a better chaser against any hero that does not run in a straight line, by the same logic.


nope, just makes you more likely to misclick.

anyone know if bloodlines champions is worth playing?

That's an interesting point... But assuming you have the same rate of misclicking, the relative bad effect of the misclick will be less if you have a higher apm. Let's say you have a given misclick rate m. If you have an apm a, and an apm b s.t. a>b, then the average number of clicks time following the misclick it takes to execute a correction will be 1/(1-m). The duration between clicks are given by 1/a and 1/b minutes, respectively (or 60/a, 60/b seconds).

Then the average time, in seconds, to correction is the product of these two numbers: 1/(1-m) * (60/a) vs. 1/(1-m)*(60/b)

We see that a > b (b>=0, a <=1) implies that 60/a < 60/b, implies
1/(1-m) * (60/a) < 1/(1-m)*(60/b)

or that higher APM immediately implies lower correction time.

So given my "all other things being equal assumption" and my interpretation of equality, I've just proven that having a higher apm is more beneficial on average.

I accept that there are certain assumptions being made:

1.) I assume the measure of apm implies that there is some intake and processing of information between subsequent clicks.
**1a.) I assume that the choice not to click might be included in the apm (even though it is not.) This inaccuracy, I hope, is empirically not particularly large since there is SOME non-deleterious action that can be taken in almost all cases. Even the crucial timing involved in orb-walking can be interspersed with select actions to check opponent's items.
2.) I assume "all other things being equal" to include misclick rate, which is also a very unrealistic assumption. Generally misclick rate grows proportionally to APM, but this trend is a bit harder to model mathematically without some empirical data.

So yeah. Consider your point refuted.


are you serious... stop with all the math, it's pointless and does nothing. Just as effective as theorycrafting (which btw is not very effective). Just play however you want, and see what works for you.

I tend to click a lot just out of habit (i think from sc) but ill tell you something thats useful. If you're chasing someone around trees or anywhere there is fog, and you are trying to land a single-target spell on him, i usually spam click around the fog where i think he will be so as soon as i get vision of him i ZAP him.
WHAT'S HAPPENIN
StallingHard
Profile Joined February 2011
144 Posts
March 07 2011 07:58 GMT
#23759
On March 07 2011 15:11 Gummy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 15:09 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
you're also assuming that a misclick can be corrected.

I'm not actually. If a misclick can't be corrected, then you'd just be in an equally shitty situation if you had fewer clicks and the same rate of error.


Not true, the misclick comes faster due to your increased number of clicks over a set amount of time, and subsequent misclicks come faster. Some misclicks can be avoided, but some misclicks trigger a near instant cast animation, or turn, etc that will cause consequences.

You also make the baseless assumption that misclicks translate at a linear rate, I would argue that the faster you click the higher likelihood there is for a misclick.
Gummy
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2180 Posts
March 07 2011 08:35 GMT
#23760
On March 07 2011 16:58 StallingHard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 15:11 Gummy wrote:
On March 07 2011 15:09 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
you're also assuming that a misclick can be corrected.

I'm not actually. If a misclick can't be corrected, then you'd just be in an equally shitty situation if you had fewer clicks and the same rate of error.


Not true, the misclick comes faster due to your increased number of clicks over a set amount of time, and subsequent misclicks come faster. Some misclicks can be avoided, but some misclicks trigger a near instant cast animation, or turn, etc that will cause consequences.

You also make the baseless assumption that misclicks translate at a linear rate, I would argue that the faster you click the higher likelihood there is for a misclick.

You have points, but you clearly didn't read my post. The first is taken into account by my model, and the second is directly addressed in my assumptions.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
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