EPTThe problem is that OD himself is not that strong at surviving, so you need a team to protect him/keep map control or he turns into a gank target.
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
The problem is that OD himself is not that strong at surviving, so you need a team to protect him/keep map control or he turns into a gank target. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On October 10 2010 09:33 Alventenie wrote: Have you ever though of OD vs storm? You can basically stop him from getting any cs (and resulting items get pushed later) so he can't get his first mana regen item that will make him insane to kill. The only problem is you need lots of wards and a very map aware player on OD since he can get ganked easily. nagas sleep + ds/enigma can make a positional nightmare but its stupidly hard to time and do, also you can isolate people with linkens or bkb doing that + net them (pugna must be banned or on your team), but its pretty hard to do tiny can work but pretty much have to be played near perfect, because skilled opponents know how he works like ES, he really is a total hit and miss ogre magi shouldnt be used because his roles are done better by other heroes unless you can somehow (somehow) abuse bloodlust OD works vs storm but it doesnt really work in a push lineup like dk does because of the dragon poison sniper isnt played enough these days and i still think TB is ignored  , you can still get off ranged manta with good lag games | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
OD is a shitty pick in general most of the time, a good last pick if the line ups work out. Sniper doesn't work as well as some others in a trilane and him solo is just lol. Think the most overlooked heroes right now are Invoker and Zeus, both of which make the popular 3-1-1 lineups cry. Don't know why you still would run QoP over Puck never mind chain stunning, you can't disrupt the opponent's team fight at all. I'll take a good Puck, hell even THD, over QoP right now. She's just so, what the fuck is my item progression right now, Storm beats her out in most situations anyways so why. Spiritbreaker, Chrono-based Void and Mag support are some things to look at. Empower in a trilane with the Mag half-ass pulling. | ||
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
 She shouldn't be compared to any of the heroes you've mentioned. Her job is to fast farm a guinsoos, usually faster than any of the heroes you mentioned and add nuking power to a team fight. I think you're being too hard on her lolJust for the hell of it, I'll try using her in an upcoming ADC match :p I've always considered spiritbreaker's role to be getting himself killed -0- mag disabled in cm mode, and void, yes interesting but I haven't realy thought about him so it's hard to picture the right line-up for him. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On October 10 2010 12:43 Judicator wrote: TB is being marginalized as long as Morph remains competitive, no reason to use TB over Morph. OD is a shitty pick in general most of the time, a good last pick if the line ups work out. Sniper doesn't work as well as some others in a trilane and him solo is just lol. Think the most overlooked heroes right now are Invoker and Zeus, both of which make the popular 3-1-1 lineups cry. Don't know why you still would run QoP over Puck never mind chain stunning, you can't disrupt the opponent's team fight at all. I'll take a good Puck, hell even THD, over QoP right now. She's just so, what the fuck is my item progression right now, Storm beats her out in most situations anyways so why. Spiritbreaker, Chrono-based Void and Mag support are some things to look at. Empower in a trilane with the Mag half-ass pulling. Sniper works fine in a trilane and solo given you're playing on EHOME and can tug the map around like they can. TB's slightly different from Morph in that he has a weirdly strong Life Drain (=less burst) now and he gets images much earlier more like a PL whose images are easier to play against which is why I think he's viable and just because you already have one role doesn't mean you can't fit another role in. SB is an AWFUL hero, I can't believe you think you can get anywhere with him and Chrono based Void is absolutely mediocre and would only work with lesser skilled teams. Getting good Chronosphere is amazingly hard unless you force them in with DS or somebody like him. Mag has potential but his Empower only works on melee and is hardly good on ranged and only certain melee heroes work in Trilanes, Mag being not one of them (slow levels with no stun until ultimate, Skewer has awful cd). | ||
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hideo
Canada1641 Posts
Failed terribly, even though longdd cs'ed like a beast. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
At pretty much any point in the game he has the potential to deal more damage than any other hero per hit. I'm not saying to use him, and I'm not gonna deny that somehow using SB is anything more than mad theorycraft, but I'm just saying he hits like a mother fucking truck. Honestly, the list of heroes who hit harder are very, very few. Even without boots, level 1 empowering haste 2x str 2x branch you get +20 bonus dmg. His greater bash adds 100 bonus dmg. His ult is like what, 100cd and with the right teammates he can get out after charge+ult combo kinda like VS gets out after swap with enough HP. Oh yeah, did you know that he retains his max movespeed for 2 seconds after his charge of darkness hit? That means your empowering haste bonus damage stays for those next 2 hits or so. I also believe he has item progression up the ass. I kid around with pubs, but str treads+armlet+manta is just dirty amount of bashes. I usually disagree with Judi about heroes Heen, but I think that mainly stems from me judging how they are according to my experience playing that hero, whereas he usually judges them on how they are being played out on the meta game. Seems like rabid is that way too and they shouldn't be ignored. However, if you were to ask me I think you could definitely surprise win some games with QoP. OD is a really great hero too, you should consider running him. Not just vs storm, I think he could be great vs a lot of heroes. You have really great positioning, I think that's the one thing that stood out the most from playing with you and watching your games so I think you would succeed with OD. Idk, try him out. I also am of the opinion that a GOOD chronosphere is not hard to get off, but void is just not applicable in the current game style. I also think PL is garbage. From how you describe your team, I think finding a combination of heroes you are comfortable with will be the best measurable marginal gain you can achieve. So keep looking and gl^^ | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On October 10 2010 13:40 Ack1027 wrote: I would just like to put it down in writing that SB is totally my idea. At pretty much any point in the game he has the potential to deal more damage than any other hero per hit. I'm not saying to use him, and I'm not gonna deny that somehow using SB is anything more than mad theorycraft, but I'm just saying he hits like a mother fucking truck. Honestly, the list of heroes who hit harder are very, very few. Even without boots, level 1 empowering haste 2x str 2x branch you get +20 bonus dmg. His greater bash adds 100 bonus dmg. His ult is like what, 100cd and with the right teammates he can get out after charge+ult combo kinda like VS gets out after swap with enough HP. Oh yeah, did you know that he retains his max movespeed for 2 seconds after his charge of darkness hit? That means your empowering haste bonus damage stays for those next 2 hits or so. I also believe he has item progression up the ass. I kid around with pubs, but str treads+armlet+manta is just dirty amount of bashes. I usually disagree with Judi about heroes Heen, but I think that mainly stems from me judging how they are according to my experience playing that hero, whereas he usually judges them on how they are being played out on the meta game. Seems like rabid is that way too and they shouldn't be ignored. However, if you were to ask me I think you could definitely surprise win some games with QoP. OD is a really great hero too, you should consider running him. Not just vs storm, I think he could be great vs a lot of heroes. You have really great positioning, I think that's the one thing that stood out the most from playing with you and watching your games so I think you would succeed with OD. Idk, try him out. I also am of the opinion that a GOOD chronosphere is not hard to get off, but void is just not applicable in the current game style. I also think PL is garbage. From how you describe your team, I think finding a combination of heroes you are comfortable with will be the best measurable marginal gain you can achieve. So keep looking and gl^^ SB does hit hard, except he drops fast in teamfights and his new Charge is the slowest stun to activate at point blank and is god awful and by god awful it is absolutely shitty and terrible etc. He'd never work in a trilane or solo lane because you're laning at a disadvantage until level 6, so you'd have to play him as a dual lane still with a disadvantage. It's hard to get off good Chronospheres the same reason it's hard to get off good Black Holes and good Reverse Polarities. Vs. any top skill team (and this is really what Heen is up against for the next couple games) its just tough to be given the opportunity to get people in it when people are already anal about getting caught in Black Holes. Like hideo said, CH already tried Void based lineups, not to mention a good Silencer counterpick can ruin a Chrono-based Void. | ||
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OmgIRok
Taiwan2699 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On October 10 2010 13:54 rabidch wrote: SB does hit hard, except he drops fast in teamfights and his new Charge is the slowest stun to activate at point blank and is god awful and by god awful it is absolutely shitty and terrible etc. He'd never work in a trilane or solo lane because you're laning at a disadvantage until level 6, so you'd have to play him as a dual lane still with a disadvantage. It's hard to get off good Chronospheres the same reason it's hard to get off good Black Holes and good Reverse Polarities. Vs. any top skill team (and this is really what Heen is up against for the next couple games) its just tough to be given the opportunity to get people in it when people are already anal about getting caught in Black Holes. Like hideo said, CH already tried Void based lineups, not to mention a good Silencer counterpick can ruin a Chrono-based Void. It's really not hard to get off good chronospheres. You can't argue that its hard to get off black holes/chronospheres/reverse polarities and then just point to playing against good players. You also have to put the ulti's in the hands of a good player. There's a reason why Enigma gets banned vs certain teams. Void doesn't work because of how the game plays right now, aka tri lanes and silencer being viable. Magnus can't work because the cd of skewer is too long just as you say. The important thing is to recognize however that Enigma and black hole are different. All of Enigmas skills are useful, viable, and he can jungle + gank. I'm of the opinion you aren't good at placing these ults yourself or you see people who you consider better than yourself struggling with such ults [ aka longdd on void ] so you come to the conclusion that it is hard. Players don't magically become exponentially worse or better at escaping things like chronospheres/rps/bholes. Situation calls for it and its up to your team picker to gamble that or not. Maybe CH just doesn't have players that can play void. [ Evidence seems to support this ]. I mean even Heen's team is above average competitively and he openly admits not everyone on his team can play every hero. | ||
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uberMatt
Canada659 Posts
On October 11 2010 06:20 Ack1027 wrote: It's really not hard to get off good chronospheres. You can't argue that its hard to get off black holes/chronospheres/reverse polarities and then just point to playing against good players. You also have to put the ulti's in the hands of a good player. There's a reason why Enigma gets banned vs certain teams. Void doesn't work because of how the game plays right now, aka tri lanes and silencer being viable. Magnus can't work because the cd of skewer is too long just as you say. The important thing is to recognize however that Enigma and black hole are different. All of Enigmas skills are useful, viable, and he can jungle + gank. I'm of the opinion you aren't good at placing these ults yourself or you see people who you consider better than yourself struggling with such ults [ aka longdd on void ] so you come to the conclusion that it is hard. Players don't magically become exponentially worse or better at escaping things like chronospheres/rps/bholes. Situation calls for it and its up to your team picker to gamble that or not. Maybe CH just doesn't have players that can play void. [ Evidence seems to support this ]. I mean even Heen's team is above average competitively and he openly admits not everyone on his team can play every hero. two bolded comments made me giggle o the world of theorycraft, o sanctuary, there is no way you could have known | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Chronosphere isn't hard to place, I really don't know where you get that from. It's actually a hell of a lot more friendly than BH (considering all the shit involved with BH's shitty triggering, lol channel). It's certainly not one you pick for, but his ultimate with Aghs is nothing to scoff at. The Silencer pick sure, but it's Silencer, he's one dimensional, and certainly not game breaking. SB I do agree with and you do need to design your lanes accordingly. Mag, it's the Empower, everything else is just butter, his ulti isn't as bad as you're making it to be either. More often than not, I see players of all calibers in EEDL trying to get greedy with their aoe ultimates when just hitting 1 or 2 late game is all you need. Edit: The reason I bring up Void is because people moved away from originally how he was used way back in <27. Void+SandK bullshit, simply abusing the Chronosphere. LongDD cs-ing means shit, because that's not what I am advocating here. | ||
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uberMatt
Canada659 Posts
On October 11 2010 08:30 Judicator wrote: Slow down ubermatt, unlike you, we actually have real game experience against top players, so you can keep your snide remarks to yourself. Difference between theorycrafting and our posts? We aren't theorycrafting. Chronosphere isn't hard to place, I really don't know where you get that from. It's actually a hell of a lot more friendly than BH (considering all the shit involved with BH's shitty triggering, lol channel). It's certainly not one you pick for, but his ultimate with Aghs is nothing to scoff at. The Silencer pick sure, but it's Silencer, he's one dimensional, and certainly not game breaking. SB I do agree with and you do need to design your lanes accordingly. Mag, it's the Empower, everything else is just butter, his ulti isn't as bad as you're making it to be either. More often than not, I see players of all calibers in EEDL trying to get greedy with their aoe ultimates when just hitting 1 or 2 late game is all you need. Edit: The reason I bring up Void is because people moved away from originally how he was used way back in <27. Void+SandK bullshit, simply abusing the Chronosphere. LongDD cs-ing means shit, because that's not what I am advocating here. it is a continuous joy to me that people like you actually exist User was warned for this post | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On October 11 2010 07:51 uberMatt wrote: two bolded comments made me giggle o the world of theorycraft, o sanctuary, there is no way you could have known Is English your first language? Those sentences do not contradict one another. Placing and escaping have different definitions. | ||
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Glull
Germany404 Posts
On October 11 2010 09:01 uberMatt wrote: it is a continuous joy to me that people like you actually exist i agree, because it is very intresting to read the ongoing discussion in this thread. i dont play much dota anymore so i dont really think i can add much to it and am just reading, but it is quite enjoyable nontheless. so please, unless you have something to contribute, do it like me and just read. (or leave, thats fine too!) | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 11 2010 09:01 uberMatt wrote: it is a continuous joy to me that people like you actually exist What the fuck is continuous joy? Is there a discrete joy? Do you get your joy in quanta? Also, if you aren't going to contribute in a meaningful way, don't bother posting, nobody's interested and nobody cares. If you're done fail-trolling, want to move on? | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On October 10 2010 06:28 GhostKorean wrote: Durak, can you explain why elder parasite on TDL? Seems like a terrible item on someone so squishy (terrible item overall, even on chronos imo) I don't understand EP on TDL. Her charge gives her +75 attack speed without a debuff... I'd honestly rather see it on ranged carries who have ghostmarchers and need the attack speed (but not really that either...) | ||
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Glull
Germany404 Posts
then again, it really doesnt matter in these games. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On October 11 2010 08:30 Judicator wrote: Slow down ubermatt, unlike you, we actually have real game experience against top players, so you can keep your snide remarks to yourself. Difference between theorycrafting and our posts? We aren't theorycrafting. Chronosphere isn't hard to place, I really don't know where you get that from. It's actually a hell of a lot more friendly than BH (considering all the shit involved with BH's shitty triggering, lol channel). It's certainly not one you pick for, but his ultimate with Aghs is nothing to scoff at. The Silencer pick sure, but it's Silencer, he's one dimensional, and certainly not game breaking. SB I do agree with and you do need to design your lanes accordingly. Mag, it's the Empower, everything else is just butter, his ulti isn't as bad as you're making it to be either. More often than not, I see players of all calibers in EEDL trying to get greedy with their aoe ultimates when just hitting 1 or 2 late game is all you need. Edit: The reason I bring up Void is because people moved away from originally how he was used way back in <27. Void+SandK bullshit, simply abusing the Chronosphere. LongDD cs-ing means shit, because that's not what I am advocating here. It's easier to place but the thing is 1-2 people in a Chronosphere isn't really optimal and getting 3+ people in is where it comes difficult. Not to pick at longdds terribad performance in those games (these are the games after which Dg.c and YaphetS quit CH), EHOME basically gunned their heroes to bail out heroes or fuck with Void in the Chronosphere with picks that are mostly not banned. Beastmaster, VS, ES, Pugna, Drow Game 1 and less conservative picks Game 2 with CM, ES, Drow, Alch, Storm (CH got VS and BM and bans were done outside game). All these picks are relatively great against most lineups so it's not necessarily counterpicking. Level 1 Chrono is subpar, and Aghanims (4300 item) has to be farmed relatively quickly as a non-solo melee hero and picks can be stacked against you. I think Chrono is way too situational to gear a team around it's usage. You're overrating Mag's Empower. 45% attack (level 7) isn't much, maybe when it was 60% it would be useful. I'm not saying his Ulti is bad but vs. teams that realize how much it can turn around a game (maybe more so than Black Hole) you're going to have positional issues to overcome. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On October 11 2010 10:18 rabidch wrote: It's easier to place but the thing is 1-2 people in a Chronosphere isn't really optimal and getting 3+ people in is where it comes difficult. Not to pick at longdds terribad performance in those games (these are the games after which Dg.c and YaphetS quit CH), EHOME basically gunned their heroes to bail out heroes or fuck with Void in the Chronosphere with picks that are mostly not banned. Beastmaster, VS, ES, Pugna, Drow Game 1 and less conservative picks Game 2 with CM, ES, Drow, Alch, Storm (CH got VS and BM and bans were done outside game). All these picks are relatively great against most lineups so it's not necessarily counterpicking. Fair enough. However just to be clear I'm saying its not that hard to place in relation to other aspects of high[er] level play. Also why do you think getting 1-2 people in a chronosphere isn't optimal? I would think the entire point of using void in today's [ or not that long ago ] games would be to play him as a gank hero who can completely lock out heroes and allow his teammates or lane partner to beat on him as well. I mean wanting anything more than 1-2 enemies seems way too greedy. Do you consider a black hole that only gets 1-3 people not optimal as well? Also a good chronosphere does not only consist of how many enemies you get in it, but that + being able to position it so your teammates/lane partner have easy access to output damage. In your example, ignoring obvious skill differences, if a void was able to chrono any 2 out of BM, VS, ES, Pugna, Drow then it would be an easy push for a tower. It doesn't matter that the heroes picked are ones that are not banned often, because it doesn't effect how a good player would place the chrono. | ||
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