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Northern Ireland26522 Posts
On March 31 2024 21:14 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2024 20:08 KingzTig wrote:On March 31 2024 01:01 Fango wrote:On March 29 2024 03:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Stormgate should not be that expensive to make. Just check out ZeroSpace bieng put together by a team held together with chicken wire and spit. This is , of course, a compliment to the Zerospace team. They've done a really nice job with very few resources.
Stormgate is being made in one of the most expensive place on planet earth to make a game. If Frost Giant is having money problems... this is prolly a big contributing factor. Stormgate is attempting much, much more than ZeroSpace is. They've built their own engine and network. The responsiveness and pathfinding of Stormgate are way closer to the polish of Blizzard RTS than ZeroSpace is, not to mention their plans for rollback, having a global ladder, advanced player statistics and replay analysis, integrating esports and content creators into the client through live replays etc Even after that, Zerospace isn't focusing on ranked and PvE co-op. Co-op exists but it isn't their flagship gamemode. And ZeroSpace doesn't have an editor coming (as far as I'm aware), which is make or break for whether an RTS can reach it's full potential. This isn't a knock on ZeroSpace, I can't wait for it's full release, but it's not aiming to directly replace SC2 the same way Stormgate is. I don't think that "ZeroSpace was made for cheap, therefore Stormgate can be" really checks out At the end we want a good RTS, a lot of features you listed are good esports components and a good bedrock for custom games but that's that. I don't think a good RTS needs all that. The game needs to be fun, stormgate units and engagements are frankly just dull imo, it's also too close to starcraft 2 which despite all the flaws, is still much better than SG in every way possible. Those features aren't necessary for a regular RTS that just focuses on selling a fun campaign. But they are 100% necessary if a game wants to actually replace SC2 as the premier multiplayer RTS, or even better to become a game that makes the genre more popular. It needs to have a modern RTS engine, a fantastic editor (probably the most important thing), and all things that SC2 missed out on (esports integration, live observing, global ladder etc).
Yeah the ability to make and distribute content I think is probably more crucial for a multiplayer RTS than almost any other type of game.
Good to see FG get this part at least. Even relatively simple maps and modes really have added a lot to my SC2 experience, and WC3 even more so. Even something as simple as King of the Hill with a bunch of buddies, or warming up with some micro maps like marine splitting are things I’ve sunk a load of time into
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On March 31 2024 14:35 Zealgoon wrote:
It could also be argued that ZS is attempting more than SG. It has 4 races compared to SG's 3 (considering how long it's taking SG to make the 3rd race I'm fairly confident we won't be getting a 4th), merceneries, heroes, a much more choice driven campaign (supposedly), and that bizarre galaxy war thing which I don't know if it has been scrapped yet.
Mind you, though, more ambitious isn't necessarily a good thing. Both games made some promises that I found more alarming than exciting.
If I had to guess the 4th race will probably come with an expansion, or sometime after initial release. 3 on launch 4+ sometime after is my guess. Assuming the game does well and has an active player base.
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On March 31 2024 21:14 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2024 20:08 KingzTig wrote:On March 31 2024 01:01 Fango wrote:On March 29 2024 03:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Stormgate should not be that expensive to make. Just check out ZeroSpace bieng put together by a team held together with chicken wire and spit. This is , of course, a compliment to the Zerospace team. They've done a really nice job with very few resources.
Stormgate is being made in one of the most expensive place on planet earth to make a game. If Frost Giant is having money problems... this is prolly a big contributing factor. Stormgate is attempting much, much more than ZeroSpace is. They've built their own engine and network. The responsiveness and pathfinding of Stormgate are way closer to the polish of Blizzard RTS than ZeroSpace is, not to mention their plans for rollback, having a global ladder, advanced player statistics and replay analysis, integrating esports and content creators into the client through live replays etc Even after that, Zerospace isn't focusing on ranked and PvE co-op. Co-op exists but it isn't their flagship gamemode. And ZeroSpace doesn't have an editor coming (as far as I'm aware), which is make or break for whether an RTS can reach it's full potential. This isn't a knock on ZeroSpace, I can't wait for it's full release, but it's not aiming to directly replace SC2 the same way Stormgate is. I don't think that "ZeroSpace was made for cheap, therefore Stormgate can be" really checks out At the end we want a good RTS, a lot of features you listed are good esports components and a good bedrock for custom games but that's that. I don't think a good RTS needs all that. The game needs to be fun, stormgate units and engagements are frankly just dull imo, it's also too close to starcraft 2 which despite all the flaws, is still much better than SG in every way possible. Those features aren't necessary for a regular RTS that just focuses on selling a fun campaign. But they are 100% necessary if a game wants to actually replace SC2 as the premier multiplayer RTS, or even better to become a game that makes the genre more popular. It needs to have a modern RTS engine, a fantastic editor (probably the most important thing), and all things that SC2 missed out on (esports integration, live observing, global ladder etc).
I have never seen anyone in RTS subreddit mentioning any of these are what they miss or need the most from the RTS genre.
The genre is missing more good RTS games.
Look at the past top RTS games back in the last 20 years, almost none of them have custom map scenes or to the point that SC/WC3 had : C&C series, BFME, COH (and DOW), AOE, rise of nation.
And with the huge amount of indie titles available, since making a full title is easier than ever, I don't see why custom map is even that important tbh.
Not to mention most games that are over engineered esports focus title are failing.
I have no doubt games that only really have a fun core gameplay, like BAR would outlast stormgate.
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RTS subreddit is not representative of RTS playerbase. It is a community that is mostly dominated by people whose favorite RTS isn't popular enough to have its own active subreddit.
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On April 01 2024 17:08 _Spartak_ wrote:
RTS subreddit is not representative of RTS playerbase. It is a community that is mostly dominated by people whose favorite RTS isn't popular enough to have its own active subreddit.
What would be a good representative of RTS playerbase then? Go click on any major RTS youtubers, same story. People are looking for a good RTS game itself.
RTS subreddit has plenty asking for recommendations, have you seen what they are looking for and what kind of recommendations they have gotten (not niche titles)
I don't remember people asking for these features in AOE4 sub or the AOM remaster
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On April 01 2024 09:30 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2024 21:14 Fango wrote:On March 31 2024 20:08 KingzTig wrote:On March 31 2024 01:01 Fango wrote:On March 29 2024 03:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Stormgate should not be that expensive to make. Just check out ZeroSpace bieng put together by a team held together with chicken wire and spit. This is , of course, a compliment to the Zerospace team. They've done a really nice job with very few resources.
Stormgate is being made in one of the most expensive place on planet earth to make a game. If Frost Giant is having money problems... this is prolly a big contributing factor. Stormgate is attempting much, much more than ZeroSpace is. They've built their own engine and network. The responsiveness and pathfinding of Stormgate are way closer to the polish of Blizzard RTS than ZeroSpace is, not to mention their plans for rollback, having a global ladder, advanced player statistics and replay analysis, integrating esports and content creators into the client through live replays etc Even after that, Zerospace isn't focusing on ranked and PvE co-op. Co-op exists but it isn't their flagship gamemode. And ZeroSpace doesn't have an editor coming (as far as I'm aware), which is make or break for whether an RTS can reach it's full potential. This isn't a knock on ZeroSpace, I can't wait for it's full release, but it's not aiming to directly replace SC2 the same way Stormgate is. I don't think that "ZeroSpace was made for cheap, therefore Stormgate can be" really checks out At the end we want a good RTS, a lot of features you listed are good esports components and a good bedrock for custom games but that's that. I don't think a good RTS needs all that. The game needs to be fun, stormgate units and engagements are frankly just dull imo, it's also too close to starcraft 2 which despite all the flaws, is still much better than SG in every way possible. Those features aren't necessary for a regular RTS that just focuses on selling a fun campaign. But they are 100% necessary if a game wants to actually replace SC2 as the premier multiplayer RTS, or even better to become a game that makes the genre more popular. It needs to have a modern RTS engine, a fantastic editor (probably the most important thing), and all things that SC2 missed out on (esports integration, live observing, global ladder etc). I have never seen anyone in RTS subreddit mentioning any of these are what they miss or need the most from the RTS genre. The genre is missing more good RTS games. Look at the past top RTS games back in the last 20 years, almost none of them have custom map scenes or to the point that SC/WC3 had : C&C series, BFME, COH (and DOW), AOE, rise of nation. And with the huge amount of indie titles available, since making a full title is easier than ever, I don't see why custom map is even that important tbh. Not to mention most games that are over engineered esports focus title are failing. I have no doubt games that only really have a fun core gameplay, like BAR would outlast stormgate.
The RTS subreddit isn't indicative of what the mainstream playerbase want. Like I said, a regular RTS focuses almost entirely on having a fun campaign, but Stormgate is very explicitly not aiming to just be a regular fun RTS. if they were then they wouldn't be spending millions building a new engine. It's trying to replace SC2 as the number 1 title. In terms of playerbase SC2, even today, dwarfs all those other titles, and co-op is the most popular mode.
All of those features are absolutely necessary to do that. If you don't improve where SC2 didn't, people won't switch over.
As for custom maps, if you think it's unnecessary then you're missing how much they helped make SC and WC the most played RTS titles of all time. Custom maps in WC became more popular than the game itself. Many customs is SC2 became entire new games and communities that now operate outside of SC2, and Blizzard lost free playerbases because they didn't support or further integrate them. If your game becomes a sandbox, you can get literally hundreds of new gamemodes developed for free, there's a reason the most popular RTS are the ones with editors.
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New creep camp mechanics:
https://playstormgate.com/news/samwise-didier-unveils-stormgate-s-creeps-2-0
Basically as I understand it: you capture the camp and leave unit(s) there. It continues to provide a global benefit.
Enemy can kill your unit(s) and cap it themselves.
New "neutral" creep factions: scavengers, cultists and cannibals
It'll be nice to see maps being contested all over the place, if the effects are worth it.
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Northern Ireland26522 Posts
On April 02 2024 02:47 SoleSteeler wrote:New creep camp mechanics: https://playstormgate.com/news/samwise-didier-unveils-stormgate-s-creeps-2-0Basically as I understand it: you capture the camp and leave unit(s) there. It continues to provide a global benefit. Enemy can kill your unit(s) and cap it themselves. New "neutral" creep factions: scavengers, cultists and cannibals It'll be nice to see maps being contested all over the place, if the effects are worth it.
That seems a better way to do it if they can balance it. Creeping being a one and done kind of job works very well in WC3 because heroes exist and you can gain advantages that stick for the remainder of a game.
Less so in Stormgate of course, so I like the idea behind this change
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Another important news in that reveal is that Samwise Didier is working with Frost Giant.
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I guess they listened to people saying they hate the art style. Didier's designs for creeps look fantastic
Also with the editor being finalised it's the perfect time to add more designers
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Holy shit so we won't be fighting oversized chickens and deers after all??? Best news from SG in a while
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If you've followed my posts over the years... you prolly know i am a huge Samwise Didier fan. Great to see him back at work. IMO, the guy is a genius.
Didier's favourite saying is from a movie about ruthless salesmen ... "A.B.C. - Always Be Closing"... well the post about Samwise Didier goes in for the close...
If you haven’t already become a Stormgate Founder, you can purchase a Founder’s Pack via Indiegogo here and take part in the playtesting. The upcoming closed beta (kicking off at the end of April) will also be our playtesters’ first opportunity to get their hands on Stormgate’s unannounced third faction–which . . . may or may not be a race of magical anime cat girls.
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i think the scavengers are a cool idea, but i hope they dont encompass the neutral camps on every map. I would like to see it switched up based on themes. Maybe some high fantasy neutrals as well.
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On April 01 2024 20:53 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2024 09:30 ETisME wrote:On March 31 2024 21:14 Fango wrote:On March 31 2024 20:08 KingzTig wrote:On March 31 2024 01:01 Fango wrote:On March 29 2024 03:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Stormgate should not be that expensive to make. Just check out ZeroSpace bieng put together by a team held together with chicken wire and spit. This is , of course, a compliment to the Zerospace team. They've done a really nice job with very few resources.
Stormgate is being made in one of the most expensive place on planet earth to make a game. If Frost Giant is having money problems... this is prolly a big contributing factor. Stormgate is attempting much, much more than ZeroSpace is. They've built their own engine and network. The responsiveness and pathfinding of Stormgate are way closer to the polish of Blizzard RTS than ZeroSpace is, not to mention their plans for rollback, having a global ladder, advanced player statistics and replay analysis, integrating esports and content creators into the client through live replays etc Even after that, Zerospace isn't focusing on ranked and PvE co-op. Co-op exists but it isn't their flagship gamemode. And ZeroSpace doesn't have an editor coming (as far as I'm aware), which is make or break for whether an RTS can reach it's full potential. This isn't a knock on ZeroSpace, I can't wait for it's full release, but it's not aiming to directly replace SC2 the same way Stormgate is. I don't think that "ZeroSpace was made for cheap, therefore Stormgate can be" really checks out At the end we want a good RTS, a lot of features you listed are good esports components and a good bedrock for custom games but that's that. I don't think a good RTS needs all that. The game needs to be fun, stormgate units and engagements are frankly just dull imo, it's also too close to starcraft 2 which despite all the flaws, is still much better than SG in every way possible. Those features aren't necessary for a regular RTS that just focuses on selling a fun campaign. But they are 100% necessary if a game wants to actually replace SC2 as the premier multiplayer RTS, or even better to become a game that makes the genre more popular. It needs to have a modern RTS engine, a fantastic editor (probably the most important thing), and all things that SC2 missed out on (esports integration, live observing, global ladder etc). I have never seen anyone in RTS subreddit mentioning any of these are what they miss or need the most from the RTS genre. The genre is missing more good RTS games. Look at the past top RTS games back in the last 20 years, almost none of them have custom map scenes or to the point that SC/WC3 had : C&C series, BFME, COH (and DOW), AOE, rise of nation. And with the huge amount of indie titles available, since making a full title is easier than ever, I don't see why custom map is even that important tbh. Not to mention most games that are over engineered esports focus title are failing. I have no doubt games that only really have a fun core gameplay, like BAR would outlast stormgate. The RTS subreddit isn't indicative of what the mainstream playerbase want. Like I said, a regular RTS focuses almost entirely on having a fun campaign, but Stormgate is very explicitly not aiming to just be a regular fun RTS. if they were then they wouldn't be spending millions building a new engine. It's trying to replace SC2 as the number 1 title. In terms of playerbase SC2, even today, dwarfs all those other titles, and co-op is the most popular mode. All of those features are absolutely necessary to do that. If you don't improve where SC2 didn't, people won't switch over. As for custom maps, if you think it's unnecessary then you're missing how much they helped make SC and WC the most played RTS titles of all time. Custom maps in WC became more popular than the game itself. Many customs is SC2 became entire new games and communities that now operate outside of SC2, and Blizzard lost free playerbases because they didn't support or further integrate them. If your game becomes a sandbox, you can get literally hundreds of new gamemodes developed for free, there's a reason the most popular RTS are the ones with editors.
I am saying it is not what the RTS community wants because the gameplay itself is lacking.
It's more than the RTS subreddit, it's pretty much all RTS focused videos as well. Go to any RTS youtube channels.
I did play a ton of custom in WC3, but we don't really live in that era anymore, the indie game scene is more vibrant than ever before. We now have dedicated tower defense, MOBA, auto battles etc.
One obvious example is Dota 2 which already has a huge following, with a fairly good custom map engine, only really popularized auto battle genre.
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Having a powerful editor is not only about allowing custom games. It will also help developers produce content much quicker, which is very important for a live service game.
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This Creep 2.0 mechanic sounds interesting and brings in a new strategc flavor! The latest updates and news regarding Stormgate got me more hopeful again and I'm looking forward to the 3rd race in the next beta cycle
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Watched Samwise's video. Nice, creep camp minions will have a better readability with respect to team colors. Too bad it's the only race where it doesn't matter 
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On April 02 2024 04:01 _Spartak_ wrote:
Another important news in that reveal is that Samwise Didier is working with Frost Giant.
It is rather curious how many many people make very loud and sometimes rude complaints about the art style of the game and specific aspects of the art and animation. However, no one compliments a guy who did great work in that area.
I waited about 10 days after Didier left Blizzard thinking someone would mention it on here. Given Mr. Didier's massive body of great work over many decades I was surprised to see no one on here said a word. So I made a thread... and no one posted a single sentence of thanks.
Anyhow, it'll just be cool to see more art from a genius.
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On April 02 2024 09:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Didier's favourite saying is from a movie about ruthless salesmen ... "A.B.C. - Always Be Closing"... well the post about Samwise Didier goes in for the close...
It might be based on the quote from Glengarry Glen Ross, but his spin on it is Always Be Creating. He always says it in his videos.
(source: https://youtube.com/@abcwithsamwise-ABC?si=LonFEYhlI3MADIOq)
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On April 03 2024 05:12 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2024 09:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Didier's favourite saying is from a movie about ruthless salesmen ... "A.B.C. - Always Be Closing"... well the post about Samwise Didier goes in for the close...
It might be based on the quote from Glengarry Glen Ross, but his spin on it is Always Be Creating. He always says it in his videos. (source: https://youtube.com/@abcwithsamwise-ABC?si=LonFEYhlI3MADIOq)
it is definitely from Alec Baldwin's speech in the Glengarry Glen Ross movie.
On his twitter , Didier used to have a graphic of Alec Baldwin pointing at a chalk board in the movie and it said "ABC" in chalk on the board.
Didier has the same FU attitude that Baldwin had in that movie. However, I suspect making $970,000/year is nuttin special for Didier.
One of the greatest movies ever.
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EPT
