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Northern Ireland26658 Posts
On February 07 2024 17:12 FriedrichNietzsche wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 16:31 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On February 07 2024 16:02 tec27 wrote:On February 07 2024 09:52 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 08:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 06 2024 13:14 Zealgoon wrote: Dunno why they're in such a hurry to let the public have their hand on this. Personally I can't see anything good coming out of this playtest.
It's also laggy as hell, even when I was playing against the bot. Kickstarter Cash is the "good" thing coming out of this playtest. Frost Giant needed a motivator to collect Kickstarter cash. Early beta access was it. They’ve (temporarily) opened the beta to everyone, it’s the timing of doing that that I find a bit odd. Kickstarter folks are familiar with the project and what kind of state it’s in, I assume almost everyone who contributed isn’t hugely surprised that there’s incomplete factions and armies, UI polish etc. Either they want the early beta access, the perks, or simply just wanna support the project, so I’m assuming they’re realistic on what they’re getting at right this point in time. But it seems an odd juncture to open it up to other folks, maybe some who aren’t even that familiar with RTS to give it a try. They chose this week because it is Steam Next Fest, a week chosen by Valve precisely for devs to do things like this. I don't get why this is confusing or surprising, Frost Giant mentioned Steam Next Fest like a million times leading up to this week. The question isn't, why did Frost Giant pick this week instead of next week or last week. The question is, why did Frost Giant choose to open their game up to be played by the public in this state, rather than waiting until they had something that's fun to play? It's inevitable that, on the way to producing a good game, you're first going to produce lots and lots of versions of a bad game. It's perplexing that Frost Giant has chosen this moment, when they have little more than a bare-bones tech demo, to release their ongoing project to the public. What is their goal with this? If they wanted to spark hype within the RTS community, they could have done that with a graphically bare-bones game, but one that had lots of interesting play mechanics that pointed in the direction of their vision for RTS gameplay. If they wanted to spark hype within the broader gaming community, they could have done that with a few campaign missions that told the first chapters of an exciting story. Instead we got this thing that's really just not exciting for anybody. Frost Giant would have been better off just keeping the whole project under wraps until they had a version that had something exciting in it for whatever their target audience is. I'm surely part of their target audience - I'm a hard-core RTS fanboy who's been playing every major title in the genre since C&C and Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans. I really want this game to be great, but the most excited I was about it was when it was announced; since then, every piece of information they've released has discouraged me, and at this point I'm not sure I'll even be interested enough to install the game when it's released. I dont want to derail this into a generic "lets talk about RTS" topic but reading this in particular.. I just have to ask: Am I the only one who after discovering Starcraft Broodwar in ~ 1999/2000 it was the only RTS I kept on playing? Like almsot literally (Im excluding couple of hours of SC2 there but other than that literally) To be precise: Im currently dling Stormgate and it is honestly the only RTS I have literally touched since SCBW & SC2
I’m kinda the type to really play a handful of games hardcore, had a Mac at the time and Blizz was a relatively rare example of someone who released on that platform. So that got me into SC, then subsequently WC3, which I probably played the most out of, and probably the most enjoyable due to it being a bit slower and less brutally punishing than SC2, which I also loved.
I played a decent chunk of BW, I was like pretty damn young, like 10/11 I do feel that if I’d discovered TL, or something similar back then I’d definitely have really got into it, rather than playing a bunch of BGH with buddies and casually playing for a year or two before moving on.
I feel I kind of lucked out though I’ve played a bunch of RTS games since, beat campaigns, had some good times. But most I always found lacking that special sauce in terms of a game I could play multiplayer for 5+ years. Be it the micro just not being as satisfying, or the balance being wonky, or just not having the character of those Blizz classics, the music, the distinctive factions and units, even the response sounds.
It’s a bit like my anime dabblings, love noir vibes so started out with Cowboy Bebop and nothing has topped it for me since.
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On February 07 2024 16:31 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
What is their goal with this? If they wanted to spark hype within the RTS community, they could have done that with a graphically bare-bones game, but one that had lots of interesting play mechanics that pointed in the direction of their vision for RTS gameplay. If they wanted to spark hype within the broader gaming community, they could have done that with a few campaign missions that told the first chapters of an exciting story.
Instead we got this thing that's really just not exciting for anybody. Frost Giant would have been better off just keeping the whole project under wraps until they had a version that had something exciting in it for whatever their target audience is.
Their goal with this is ... collecting $2 million USD in KickStarter cash. Frost Giant are not stupid people... they know the current state of the game is not fun. Compared to Homeworld3 , also playable at NextFest, Stormgate is a fraction of a product. Again, Frost Giant are not a bunch of stupid people... they know this as well.
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On February 07 2024 19:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 16:31 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
What is their goal with this? If they wanted to spark hype within the RTS community, they could have done that with a graphically bare-bones game, but one that had lots of interesting play mechanics that pointed in the direction of their vision for RTS gameplay. If they wanted to spark hype within the broader gaming community, they could have done that with a few campaign missions that told the first chapters of an exciting story.
Instead we got this thing that's really just not exciting for anybody. Frost Giant would have been better off just keeping the whole project under wraps until they had a version that had something exciting in it for whatever their target audience is. Their goal with this is ... collecting $2 million USD in KickStarter cash. Frost Giant are not stupid people... they know the current state of the game is not fun. Compared to Homeworld3 , also playable at NextFest, Stormgate is a fraction of a product. Again, Frost Giant are not a bunch of stupid people... they know this as well.
FFS leave it alone with the Kickstarter already, you sound like an annoying broken record...
Stormgate was the 2nd most played demo in the first 24h.
Source German Gamestar, no concrete numbers
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On February 07 2024 21:10 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 19:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 07 2024 16:31 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
What is their goal with this? If they wanted to spark hype within the RTS community, they could have done that with a graphically bare-bones game, but one that had lots of interesting play mechanics that pointed in the direction of their vision for RTS gameplay. If they wanted to spark hype within the broader gaming community, they could have done that with a few campaign missions that told the first chapters of an exciting story.
Instead we got this thing that's really just not exciting for anybody. Frost Giant would have been better off just keeping the whole project under wraps until they had a version that had something exciting in it for whatever their target audience is. Their goal with this is ... collecting $2 million USD in KickStarter cash. Frost Giant are not stupid people... they know the current state of the game is not fun. Compared to Homeworld3 , also playable at NextFest, Stormgate is a fraction of a product. Again, Frost Giant are not a bunch of stupid people... they know this as well. FFS leave it alone with the Kickstarter already, you sound like an annoying broken record... Stormgate was the 2nd most played demo in the first 24h. Source German Gamestar, no concrete numbers
that's not a rebuttal though.
and, i'm fine. i'm not asking any one for money. they are annoying. they keep whining about having no money and making jokes about having no marketing department.
there are 1700 people in game right now. there are more people playing Company of Heroes 2. its 11 years old.
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Northern Ireland26658 Posts
On February 07 2024 21:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:10 Harris1st wrote:On February 07 2024 19:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 07 2024 16:31 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
What is their goal with this? If they wanted to spark hype within the RTS community, they could have done that with a graphically bare-bones game, but one that had lots of interesting play mechanics that pointed in the direction of their vision for RTS gameplay. If they wanted to spark hype within the broader gaming community, they could have done that with a few campaign missions that told the first chapters of an exciting story.
Instead we got this thing that's really just not exciting for anybody. Frost Giant would have been better off just keeping the whole project under wraps until they had a version that had something exciting in it for whatever their target audience is. Their goal with this is ... collecting $2 million USD in KickStarter cash. Frost Giant are not stupid people... they know the current state of the game is not fun. Compared to Homeworld3 , also playable at NextFest, Stormgate is a fraction of a product. Again, Frost Giant are not a bunch of stupid people... they know this as well. FFS leave it alone with the Kickstarter already, you sound like an annoying broken record... Stormgate was the 2nd most played demo in the first 24h. Source German Gamestar, no concrete numbers nah, i'm fine. i'm not asking any one for money. they are annoying. they keep whining about having no money and making jokes about having no marketing department.
When did they whine about having no money?
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Northern Ireland26658 Posts
On February 07 2024 21:10 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 19:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 07 2024 16:31 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
What is their goal with this? If they wanted to spark hype within the RTS community, they could have done that with a graphically bare-bones game, but one that had lots of interesting play mechanics that pointed in the direction of their vision for RTS gameplay. If they wanted to spark hype within the broader gaming community, they could have done that with a few campaign missions that told the first chapters of an exciting story.
Instead we got this thing that's really just not exciting for anybody. Frost Giant would have been better off just keeping the whole project under wraps until they had a version that had something exciting in it for whatever their target audience is. Their goal with this is ... collecting $2 million USD in KickStarter cash. Frost Giant are not stupid people... they know the current state of the game is not fun. Compared to Homeworld3 , also playable at NextFest, Stormgate is a fraction of a product. Again, Frost Giant are not a bunch of stupid people... they know this as well. FFS leave it alone with the Kickstarter already, you sound like an annoying broken record... Stormgate was the 2nd most played demo in the first 24h. Source German Gamestar, no concrete numbers
Hey it beats him calling Bobby Kotick a genius so I’ll take it
Interesting numbers, I’m curious as to how many non-RTS vets gave it a shot and what they thought of it! Still that’s something positive amongst a thread that (tbf understandably) has been a bit negative lately
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On February 07 2024 21:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 07 2024 21:10 Harris1st wrote:On February 07 2024 19:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 07 2024 16:31 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
What is their goal with this? If they wanted to spark hype within the RTS community, they could have done that with a graphically bare-bones game, but one that had lots of interesting play mechanics that pointed in the direction of their vision for RTS gameplay. If they wanted to spark hype within the broader gaming community, they could have done that with a few campaign missions that told the first chapters of an exciting story.
Instead we got this thing that's really just not exciting for anybody. Frost Giant would have been better off just keeping the whole project under wraps until they had a version that had something exciting in it for whatever their target audience is. Their goal with this is ... collecting $2 million USD in KickStarter cash. Frost Giant are not stupid people... they know the current state of the game is not fun. Compared to Homeworld3 , also playable at NextFest, Stormgate is a fraction of a product. Again, Frost Giant are not a bunch of stupid people... they know this as well. FFS leave it alone with the Kickstarter already, you sound like an annoying broken record... Stormgate was the 2nd most played demo in the first 24h. Source German Gamestar, no concrete numbers nah, i'm fine. i'm not asking any one for money. they are annoying. they keep whining about having no money and making jokes about having no marketing department. When did they whine about having no money?
when they began the kickstarter and they issued a word salad statement about no money for server testing.
and then there was this
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/18b59zu/stormgate_closed_beta_livestream_schedule_for/
"Frost Giant is a small team with a limited budget–no one has asked for payment and everyone is doing this out of genuine support "
On February 07 2024 21:24 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:10 Harris1st wrote:On February 07 2024 19:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 07 2024 16:31 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
What is their goal with this? If they wanted to spark hype within the RTS community, they could have done that with a graphically bare-bones game, but one that had lots of interesting play mechanics that pointed in the direction of their vision for RTS gameplay. If they wanted to spark hype within the broader gaming community, they could have done that with a few campaign missions that told the first chapters of an exciting story.
Instead we got this thing that's really just not exciting for anybody. Frost Giant would have been better off just keeping the whole project under wraps until they had a version that had something exciting in it for whatever their target audience is. Their goal with this is ... collecting $2 million USD in KickStarter cash. Frost Giant are not stupid people... they know the current state of the game is not fun. Compared to Homeworld3 , also playable at NextFest, Stormgate is a fraction of a product. Again, Frost Giant are not a bunch of stupid people... they know this as well. FFS leave it alone with the Kickstarter already, you sound like an annoying broken record... Stormgate was the 2nd most played demo in the first 24h. Source German Gamestar, no concrete numbers Hey it beats him calling Bobby Kotick a genius so I’ll take it Interesting numbers, I’m curious as to how many non-RTS vets gave it a shot and what they thought of it! Still that’s something positive amongst a thread that (tbf understandably) has been a bit negative lately
Kotick is genius though. a big number of people on this board had grandparents with enough wealth to buy Activision in 1991. any one could've bought it.
there are more people playing CoH2. so i'm not sure the # is a good one.
I think the game is ok. However, its 2/3rd of 2 factions. With multiple options out there offering massive amounts of content its tough for CoH2, AoE, and SC people to move over to Stormgate. When it comes to action/strategy games players tend to stick with what they know. If Stormgate succeeds it is going to be a long slow process.
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after playing the demo I honestly think the devs should just take whatever money they got from kickstarter, give up on this game and run
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I really have high expectations for Stormgate, I really think he can stand out!
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I'm not really sure how to explain this other than the game feels "cheap". It hasn't done anything new. You could argue BW has better graphics than this game as well. Overall disappointing.
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On February 07 2024 22:54 yB.TeH wrote:
after playing the demo I honestly think the devs should just take whatever money they got from kickstarter, give up on this game and run
lol you re so brutal ;p
Come back and play bw with us!
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On February 07 2024 18:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 06:08 Hider wrote:On February 06 2024 19:38 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2024 19:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
Try as I might, this game just doesn't appeal to me like even a little bit right now. The gameplay is similar enough to Starcraft 2 but lacking the polish and smoothness in gameplay, the aesthetic feels VERY bland and uninteresting, the economy feels overly simplified to the point of pointlessness, and the two factions just don't seem very interesting either.
Maps are small and boring, and the Co Op feels similar enough to SC2's co Op (except it's 3 player which is nice) that again it makes me wonder why am I playing this instead of just booting up SC2?
It doesn't help that my PC doesn't run this anywhere near as well as it runs SC2 and I hate its UI currently. Reminds me way too much of League of Legends in a bad way.
Might be that it's just too early to tell, and the game will improve a ton as it receives additional development time, but for what it is right now, I just don't have any enjoyment when playing it. Every game I play of it makes me think I'd be better off booting up SC2 and playing that instead. For me it's a similar feeling but for completely different reasons: Somehow I can't be bother to learn the new controls, units, abilities and strategies. Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy. The game needs to give me a reason to do all that and rather start a game of SG than booting up SC2. I think about it in this way: For me to spend time learning a new thing, there has to be a payoff. Something that motivates you to to learn and improve. I watched some streams in the last beta, and even though I had a beta key, I simply couldn't be bothered to actually play the game. There was just nothing in it that made it interesting for me. Micro appears incredibly boring. In many fights I watched, there would be a big fight but almost no micro. Players would simply just stare at the battle and have no clue how to use their APM. Why should I spend time learning this type of game when it appears there is no payoff that interests me? I'm right there with you on this. This game just doesn't have a hook that makes me WANT to learn it. The units and maps don't look cool, the battles don't look cool, the gameplay is VERY familiar since it feels almost identical to Starcraft 2 except with very minor differences. The economy is dumbed down and boring, the maps are boring, the idea of there being neutral creeps is COMPLETELY underused especially when compared to Warcraft 3. The factions don't seem cool or interesting especially when there's zero lore or anything in the game that makes me want to care about which faction I want to play. They might as well just be different colored versions of the same race for all I care. Sure it plays like an RTS, but so what? There's nothing here that makes me want to play this RTS instead of another round of SC2, or even booting up an older RTS like AoE2 which offers a different experience that doesn't feel exactly like Starcraft. There's no selling point here for me except for who is making the game. If this wasn't FrostGiant I would have zero reason to give this game even a second glance in the steam store. It just doesn't offer anything that makes me want to play it in its current state, and it feels like it has a LONG LOOONG way to go before it does.
I would argue it looks like you take Starcraft 2 slowed down by 30-50% + a few more melee units relative to ranged units than most sc2 fights have.
Sure, it may have some small QoL improvements but that doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme.
In sc2 I believe the pace of the game functions as a bit of a bandaid for there not being enough micro to do in some engagements. (at least this was true pre LOTV). So by forcing players to do more stuff faster, it created a relatively high skill expression cap.
But when you give players excessive amount of time to do very basic thing/not reward players to do interesting, it becomes very dull. Getting the micro feeling right is the most imortant part about an RTS. Slowing down the game is fine, however, then you need to ensure there are enough new and fun micro interactions relative to Sc2.
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Game is really fun so far. The aesthetics are the worst part and with it being so similar to Starcraft, it's going to hurt to be constantly compared to one of the most iconic and aesthetically pleasing games of all time.
The Brood War boomers that won't shut the fuck up about how it's worse than their 30 year dead game (in the west) are annoying though. And I say this as a massive Brood War fan.
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If it's worse than a thirty year old game and brings nothing new to to the table relative to the large number of RTS titles already available to anyone who wants to play one, don't you think that's worth mentioning? You can't advertise The Latest And Greatest RTS and show up with something that's boring by the standards of a 30-year-old game. No one's going to play that.
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they really have to nail the drop mechanics for each race cus that'll have a big impact on balance, inf has scourges to deal with dropships that they can make on reaction (spire doesn't cost much), towers are cheap and don't cost supply
vanguard needs to have a hornet but that's much harder to make on reaction because of how the games play out, if you don't optimize ur b.o for production you get busted, the bunk system they have is actually great but it just covers 1 area (ur production is spread out) and the bigger problem is vanguard doesn't have a synergetic way to take out inf dropships
also i think abilities like teleport and return to hangar on dropships add unnecessary confusion to the game, for example if ur not paying attention to a drop and have an air unit on it (to take it out) and it suddenly vanishes you might not realize whether or not u killed it
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On February 08 2024 03:27 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 18:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 07 2024 06:08 Hider wrote:On February 06 2024 19:38 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2024 19:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
Try as I might, this game just doesn't appeal to me like even a little bit right now. The gameplay is similar enough to Starcraft 2 but lacking the polish and smoothness in gameplay, the aesthetic feels VERY bland and uninteresting, the economy feels overly simplified to the point of pointlessness, and the two factions just don't seem very interesting either.
Maps are small and boring, and the Co Op feels similar enough to SC2's co Op (except it's 3 player which is nice) that again it makes me wonder why am I playing this instead of just booting up SC2?
It doesn't help that my PC doesn't run this anywhere near as well as it runs SC2 and I hate its UI currently. Reminds me way too much of League of Legends in a bad way.
Might be that it's just too early to tell, and the game will improve a ton as it receives additional development time, but for what it is right now, I just don't have any enjoyment when playing it. Every game I play of it makes me think I'd be better off booting up SC2 and playing that instead. For me it's a similar feeling but for completely different reasons: Somehow I can't be bother to learn the new controls, units, abilities and strategies. Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy. The game needs to give me a reason to do all that and rather start a game of SG than booting up SC2. I think about it in this way: For me to spend time learning a new thing, there has to be a payoff. Something that motivates you to to learn and improve. I watched some streams in the last beta, and even though I had a beta key, I simply couldn't be bothered to actually play the game. There was just nothing in it that made it interesting for me. Micro appears incredibly boring. In many fights I watched, there would be a big fight but almost no micro. Players would simply just stare at the battle and have no clue how to use their APM. Why should I spend time learning this type of game when it appears there is no payoff that interests me? I'm right there with you on this. This game just doesn't have a hook that makes me WANT to learn it. The units and maps don't look cool, the battles don't look cool, the gameplay is VERY familiar since it feels almost identical to Starcraft 2 except with very minor differences. The economy is dumbed down and boring, the maps are boring, the idea of there being neutral creeps is COMPLETELY underused especially when compared to Warcraft 3. The factions don't seem cool or interesting especially when there's zero lore or anything in the game that makes me want to care about which faction I want to play. They might as well just be different colored versions of the same race for all I care. Sure it plays like an RTS, but so what? There's nothing here that makes me want to play this RTS instead of another round of SC2, or even booting up an older RTS like AoE2 which offers a different experience that doesn't feel exactly like Starcraft. There's no selling point here for me except for who is making the game. If this wasn't FrostGiant I would have zero reason to give this game even a second glance in the steam store. It just doesn't offer anything that makes me want to play it in its current state, and it feels like it has a LONG LOOONG way to go before it does. I would argue it looks like you take Starcraft 2 slowed down by 30-50% + a few more melee units relative to ranged units than most sc2 fights have. Sure, it may have some small QoL improvements but that doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme. In sc2 I believe the pace of the game functions as a bit of a bandaid for there not being enough micro to do in some engagements. (at least this was true pre LOTV). So by forcing players to do more stuff faster, it created a relatively high skill expression cap. But when you give players excessive amount of time to do very basic thing/not reward players to do interesting, it becomes very dull. Getting the micro feeling right is the most imortant part about an RTS. Slowing down the game is fine, however, then you need to ensure there are enough new and fun micro interactions relative to Sc2.
Exactly. Just moving a unit around should feel interesting. No more of this smooth gliding stuff. Why do Magnadons look like they're sliding over the ground? Make them feel heavy and stomp around. Why do Fiends glide over the ground? Make them feel like they're crawling around with their arms, lurching forward unevenly. I get the feeling the designers don't understand that you can add so much character to units just by how different they feel to control. It feels so weird to see bloated Brutes glide gracefully over the ground like a group of panthers.
edit: This is not just an animation problem. I want to see Fiends throw their arms out to lurch forward and have to slow down in between to alternate arms. These kinds of things require fundamental changes to the movement code.
edit2: And I do think this is a fundamental misunderstanding by the designers. Evidence is BW Zerglings actually hop around, they don't go from point A to point B in a smooth line. They felt like a pack of predators. But in SC2 they move at constant speed, sliding and gliding around. They feel like an amoeba. These are the same designers responsible for that change.
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Northern Ireland26658 Posts
On February 08 2024 08:09 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 03:27 Hider wrote:On February 07 2024 18:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 07 2024 06:08 Hider wrote:On February 06 2024 19:38 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2024 19:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
Try as I might, this game just doesn't appeal to me like even a little bit right now. The gameplay is similar enough to Starcraft 2 but lacking the polish and smoothness in gameplay, the aesthetic feels VERY bland and uninteresting, the economy feels overly simplified to the point of pointlessness, and the two factions just don't seem very interesting either.
Maps are small and boring, and the Co Op feels similar enough to SC2's co Op (except it's 3 player which is nice) that again it makes me wonder why am I playing this instead of just booting up SC2?
It doesn't help that my PC doesn't run this anywhere near as well as it runs SC2 and I hate its UI currently. Reminds me way too much of League of Legends in a bad way.
Might be that it's just too early to tell, and the game will improve a ton as it receives additional development time, but for what it is right now, I just don't have any enjoyment when playing it. Every game I play of it makes me think I'd be better off booting up SC2 and playing that instead. For me it's a similar feeling but for completely different reasons: Somehow I can't be bother to learn the new controls, units, abilities and strategies. Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy. The game needs to give me a reason to do all that and rather start a game of SG than booting up SC2. I think about it in this way: For me to spend time learning a new thing, there has to be a payoff. Something that motivates you to to learn and improve. I watched some streams in the last beta, and even though I had a beta key, I simply couldn't be bothered to actually play the game. There was just nothing in it that made it interesting for me. Micro appears incredibly boring. In many fights I watched, there would be a big fight but almost no micro. Players would simply just stare at the battle and have no clue how to use their APM. Why should I spend time learning this type of game when it appears there is no payoff that interests me? I'm right there with you on this. This game just doesn't have a hook that makes me WANT to learn it. The units and maps don't look cool, the battles don't look cool, the gameplay is VERY familiar since it feels almost identical to Starcraft 2 except with very minor differences. The economy is dumbed down and boring, the maps are boring, the idea of there being neutral creeps is COMPLETELY underused especially when compared to Warcraft 3. The factions don't seem cool or interesting especially when there's zero lore or anything in the game that makes me want to care about which faction I want to play. They might as well just be different colored versions of the same race for all I care. Sure it plays like an RTS, but so what? There's nothing here that makes me want to play this RTS instead of another round of SC2, or even booting up an older RTS like AoE2 which offers a different experience that doesn't feel exactly like Starcraft. There's no selling point here for me except for who is making the game. If this wasn't FrostGiant I would have zero reason to give this game even a second glance in the steam store. It just doesn't offer anything that makes me want to play it in its current state, and it feels like it has a LONG LOOONG way to go before it does. I would argue it looks like you take Starcraft 2 slowed down by 30-50% + a few more melee units relative to ranged units than most sc2 fights have. Sure, it may have some small QoL improvements but that doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme. In sc2 I believe the pace of the game functions as a bit of a bandaid for there not being enough micro to do in some engagements. (at least this was true pre LOTV). So by forcing players to do more stuff faster, it created a relatively high skill expression cap. But when you give players excessive amount of time to do very basic thing/not reward players to do interesting, it becomes very dull. Getting the micro feeling right is the most imortant part about an RTS. Slowing down the game is fine, however, then you need to ensure there are enough new and fun micro interactions relative to Sc2. Exactly. Just moving a unit around should feel interesting. No more of this smooth gliding stuff. Why do Magnadons look like they're sliding over the ground? Make them feel heavy and stomp around. Why do Fiends glide over the ground? Make them feel like they're crawling around with their arms, lurching forward unevenly. I get the feeling the designers don't understand that you can add so much character to units just by how different they feel to control. It feels so weird to see bloated Brutes glide gracefully over the ground like a group of panthers. edit: This is not just an animation problem. I want to see Fiends throw their arms out to lurch forward and have to slow down in between to alternate arms. These kinds of things require fundamental changes to the movement code. edit2: And I do think this is a fundamental misunderstanding by the designers. Evidence is BW Zerglings actually hop around, they don't go from point A to point B in a smooth line. They felt like a pack of predators. But in SC2 they move at constant speed, sliding and gliding around. They feel like an amoeba. These are the same designers responsible for that change.
Variable turn rates alone goes a hell of a way, ofc animations too although the latter feel an area that’s noted as being very incomplete so there will be a lot of improvement there, hopefully, but I’ll be less critical of at this juncture.
I’ve yet to actually play, some limited stream viewing but it’s not quite the same, running out of time!
But even just watching a game or two from afar, I got this strange vibe that something was a bit off, and you and Hider articulate it well.
Art design is one piece of the puzzle, units moving in different ways at a fundamental level also adds a lot more character to a unit, as well as subtly different forms of micro.
To take one unit, an archer in WC3. Slow, pretty squishy, packs a punch.
One thing they can’t do is instantly turn on a dime. You can’t ’stutter step’ at a moment’s notice, it’s more of a slightly pre-emptive measure before some beefy grunts or other melee units are in range. Or alternatively you actively block paths with other units.
So with your archers you almost perform a staggered fighting retreat with small groups, pull a few back enough for them to get a shot off, pull the next group back, etc.
This isn’t necessarily ‘better’ than bio’s ’kite and fire basically infinitely if you’re good enough’ kind of micro, but it is certainly different. And back to your earlier point, critically it makes the Nelf archer feel like an actual archer.
Some units should be difficult to micro, or merely different for a very micro-based game to be interesting. Your big punchy siege engine should take a while to rotate to target, WC3 ones did that and it adds a bit of believability. Heavy, big units get that bit of weight. It adds small, small windows where an opponent can do something, even if it’s just disengaging.
This doesn’t mean wrestling with a wonky UI, or bad pathing or any of that fun stuff ofc!
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You all bring up valid points I never even thought of but now that I've read it here I can't unsee it.
I do remember the first iteration of Zerglings in SC2 moved like in an army parade in unison. It was horrible to look at
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Zurich15365 Posts
On February 08 2024 18:42 Harris1st wrote:
You all bring up valid points I never even thought of but now that I've read it here I can't unsee it.
I do remember the first iteration of Zerglings in SC2 moved like in an army parade in unison. It was horrible to look at
Or how about the SC2 Beta Siege Tank, the infamous tankophant? Complaining about art style this much seems silly.
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On February 08 2024 08:09 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 03:27 Hider wrote:On February 07 2024 18:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 07 2024 06:08 Hider wrote:On February 06 2024 19:38 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2024 19:03 Vindicare605 wrote:
Try as I might, this game just doesn't appeal to me like even a little bit right now. The gameplay is similar enough to Starcraft 2 but lacking the polish and smoothness in gameplay, the aesthetic feels VERY bland and uninteresting, the economy feels overly simplified to the point of pointlessness, and the two factions just don't seem very interesting either.
Maps are small and boring, and the Co Op feels similar enough to SC2's co Op (except it's 3 player which is nice) that again it makes me wonder why am I playing this instead of just booting up SC2?
It doesn't help that my PC doesn't run this anywhere near as well as it runs SC2 and I hate its UI currently. Reminds me way too much of League of Legends in a bad way.
Might be that it's just too early to tell, and the game will improve a ton as it receives additional development time, but for what it is right now, I just don't have any enjoyment when playing it. Every game I play of it makes me think I'd be better off booting up SC2 and playing that instead. For me it's a similar feeling but for completely different reasons: Somehow I can't be bother to learn the new controls, units, abilities and strategies. Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy. The game needs to give me a reason to do all that and rather start a game of SG than booting up SC2. I think about it in this way: For me to spend time learning a new thing, there has to be a payoff. Something that motivates you to to learn and improve. I watched some streams in the last beta, and even though I had a beta key, I simply couldn't be bothered to actually play the game. There was just nothing in it that made it interesting for me. Micro appears incredibly boring. In many fights I watched, there would be a big fight but almost no micro. Players would simply just stare at the battle and have no clue how to use their APM. Why should I spend time learning this type of game when it appears there is no payoff that interests me? I'm right there with you on this. This game just doesn't have a hook that makes me WANT to learn it. The units and maps don't look cool, the battles don't look cool, the gameplay is VERY familiar since it feels almost identical to Starcraft 2 except with very minor differences. The economy is dumbed down and boring, the maps are boring, the idea of there being neutral creeps is COMPLETELY underused especially when compared to Warcraft 3. The factions don't seem cool or interesting especially when there's zero lore or anything in the game that makes me want to care about which faction I want to play. They might as well just be different colored versions of the same race for all I care. Sure it plays like an RTS, but so what? There's nothing here that makes me want to play this RTS instead of another round of SC2, or even booting up an older RTS like AoE2 which offers a different experience that doesn't feel exactly like Starcraft. There's no selling point here for me except for who is making the game. If this wasn't FrostGiant I would have zero reason to give this game even a second glance in the steam store. It just doesn't offer anything that makes me want to play it in its current state, and it feels like it has a LONG LOOONG way to go before it does. I would argue it looks like you take Starcraft 2 slowed down by 30-50% + a few more melee units relative to ranged units than most sc2 fights have. Sure, it may have some small QoL improvements but that doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme. In sc2 I believe the pace of the game functions as a bit of a bandaid for there not being enough micro to do in some engagements. (at least this was true pre LOTV). So by forcing players to do more stuff faster, it created a relatively high skill expression cap. But when you give players excessive amount of time to do very basic thing/not reward players to do interesting, it becomes very dull. Getting the micro feeling right is the most imortant part about an RTS. Slowing down the game is fine, however, then you need to ensure there are enough new and fun micro interactions relative to Sc2. Exactly. Just moving a unit around should feel interesting. No more of this smooth gliding stuff. Why do Magnadons look like they're sliding over the ground? Make them feel heavy and stomp around. Why do Fiends glide over the ground? Make them feel like they're crawling around with their arms, lurching forward unevenly. I get the feeling the designers don't understand that you can add so much character to units just by how different they feel to control. It feels so weird to see bloated Brutes glide gracefully over the ground like a group of panthers. edit: This is not just an animation problem. I want to see Fiends throw their arms out to lurch forward and have to slow down in between to alternate arms. These kinds of things require fundamental changes to the movement code. edit2: And I do think this is a fundamental misunderstanding by the designers. Evidence is BW Zerglings actually hop around, they don't go from point A to point B in a smooth line. They felt like a pack of predators. But in SC2 they move at constant speed, sliding and gliding around. They feel like an amoeba. These are the same designers responsible for that change.
very good points, the movement in addition to the maps (colours/structure/the ugly npc camps) makes the game feel so bland
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/1qtRIwI.jpeg)
